Just wondering....

[emitbrownne]

Is there any form of Kendo where two Shoto are used?

Like I said ... I was just wondering :D

[emitbrownne]

... is there a school of trining on single shoto (forgive me if shoto is not the right term... I mean a smaller shinai) shai??

Just wondering because, if its not practiced that often...if at all then why do we incorporate the shortsword in Kata?

Please educate me :p

[Charlie]

At the risk of sounding like a Hollywood stereotype of a zen master.

Long sword, short sword, no sword.

Read the latest Kendo World, it elaborates on this.

Also, kendo is more than shinai kendo. If the only reason for doing something in kendo is because that's what we'll do in shiai, then that's only half kendo. I mean, you're not planning on cutting do in shiai and then dropping to one knee, are you?

Kendo = shinai kendo + iaido + koryu (if possible)

Not a popular theory with some segments, but many of the senseis I am acquainted with see it that way, and I _think_ it's the official position of the AJKF.

[aru-ma]

I dont think there's any from of kendo that uses only shoto/kodachi in practice or shiai, besides there is to much opening in using just a shoto and scoring from it would be rather dificult.
When you look at kodachi kata 1-3 they're all very defensive and they're all pretty much kaeshi waza. As for why the're incorporated in kendo kata, I'm not sure myself.

[emitbrownne]

Just to show my ignorance here... I'm not trying to wind anybody up, I'm genuinely curious

Why not drop to one knee after cutting a do? If the do is cut correctly and you display awareness then why is it a bad thing?

Like I said I'm in need of education.

[munenmuso]

Hello emitbrowne,

I remember a match where one of our Japanese instructor(5th dan) used a shoto against one of our mudansha student. I'm sure it was done in the spirit of fun but it was quite a match. Despite the obvious disadvantage, that very sensei fought impressively and peculiarly against the 39 of his opponent. But I saw clearly how he struggled to control the center and maintain the correct but confusing ma-ai.

He still used both hands and he performed well and his skill overwhelmed his opponent. But I can understand that because their levels are worlds apart. It was difficlut to score a point using a shoto as the regular length shinai as I saw. I think he scored "men-ari" at encho.

But it was really a comic display..........

:D

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by emitbrownne
Why not drop to one knee after cutting a do? If the do is cut correctly and you display awareness then why is it a bad thing?
You're not dropping to one knee after cutting, you're doing it while cutting, simultaneously avoiding your opponent's men and putting your body weight and motion into the cut. It's a technique from itto-ryu kenjutsu, like much of what's in the kata.

The kodachi kata have a lot to teach about seme and maai. There's a reason they aren't required for grading until sandan.

[aru-ma]

fighting with just a shoto? wow thats new on me, I guess there is one but I still doubt you'd do it in a shiai.
as to why not dropping to your knees after cutting a do, if you do get the cut you'd most likely hurt your knee since in jigeiko/shiai as you know things move fast and if you think you got the cut but you didnt you're screwed and you'll hurt your knee so I guess its just common sense that you should just clear of after cutting do.

[Charlie]

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill
You're not dropping to one knee after cutting, you're doing it while cutting, simultaneously avoiding your opponent's men and putting your body weight and motion into the cut.

That's what I meant, but you get the idea: some of the things you do in kata you will be unable to do in shiai. The kata teaches us shiai skills, but also more than that.

BTW, Someone told me that Tagawa-sensei fought someone with a fan and made short work of him. I don't know the whole story, though.

[alexpollijr]

Hey Charlie


Early on people used this kind of kneeling Do strike in shinai kendo. We had a little chat about this on a rambled thread a while ago.

According to Dr. A, it's called 'Orishiki waza'. Not to be seen on the last few years though.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Kotaka-sensei's group "Classical Kendo Federation" still uses this technique in shiai. See http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Garden/6305/

[mingshi]

True, Charlie. It shouldn't matter what sort of sword or weapon we are using. Doesn't Kata teach us distance and timing? If you can get that right, I don't see why you can't use a shorter sword.

But I disagree on using Shoto will be defensive. So length matters? So if you hold a Shinai against a Naginata you will become defensive? You can't judge the ability of a Shoto just by looking at the only 3 Kendo Kata on Kodachi.

If your opponent sinks on their knee, you can cut their shins (Okay, in terms of Koryu again :D )

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by mingshi
But I disagree on using Shoto will be defensive. So length matters? So if you hold a Shinai against a Naginata you will become defensive? You can't judge the ability of a Shoto just by looking at the only 3 Kendo Kata on Kodachi.
Actually if you think that shidachi is being defensive in the kodachi kata, you misunderstand the kata.

[FastEd]

In jukendo, they also spar with a shoto, however such combat is ment to represent a dismounted bayonnet not a wakazashi if I understand correctly.

Ed

[Charlie]

Originally posted by alexpollijr
Early on people used this kind of kneeling Do strike in shinai kendo.

WHAT?! Wow! And that's interesting about Kotaka's people, too, that they still use it. Anyone know where that thread went?

P.S. I am only beginning to "understand" the kodachi kata myself, have only been doing them for, like, a year. But I think what Neil says must be correct, the kodachi is used in fact very _offensively_, bridging the gap made by the difference in length between the two weapons.

I am still turning over something (many things) Nishiyama said at a seminar I attended where he taught the kata. He said the deflection of the cuts with the kodachi wasn't that you just throw the weapon up there and let the attacking katana slide off it; it's a suriage deflection, you pop your opponent's attack off to the side with the shinogi of the kodachi. Difficult to explain.

[aru-ma]

kodachi offensive? ok that's that's another new one on me, and yes thats means I'm misunderstanding the kata though I've only done kodachi kata twice:p

[JSchmidt]

I believe the point is that Shidachi forces Uchidachi to cut, thus creating the opening for his own attack.
Kata No. 6 is a lot more obvious example of this.
One of my teachers has been talking about the same with normal keigo. If you deliberatly pressure someone to cut men and then counter with suriage-men (example), is it shikake or oji waza?.
Who really started the sequence?.

Jakob

[nodachi]

"...you pop your opponent's attack off to the side with the shinogi of the kodachi. Difficult to explain."

And difficult to do correctly without just going through the motions but not really doing it well. My Ittoryu sensei spent a long time talking to me after practice one day about the shape of the katana (same goes for kodachi). The blade is curved in certain places, yes, duh, I know. His point was that each curve of the katana has a particular use. Any kind of defense/parry/suriage/whatever is done using the natural shape of the blade, not just bashing away the opponents sword. Hence, you can't get a real sense of it from shinai since it is a circular, round "blade". Thus, truly mastering a real katana takes a lot of training to master. The bokuto simulate a real katana, but sensei talked alot about how people still aren't using it correctly, they are merely bashing things out of the way, rather than truly using the curvature of the blade properly.

[mkomoto]

There have been many insightful submissions already, and so sorry for any redundancy, however, I would just like to sum up some points.

(1) Nippon Kendo Kata, as well as unifying the essential elements of swordsmanship, (i.e: breathing method, maai, semei, execut. of waza., etc., etc.,) which are employed in the kodachi kata as well, also serves to preserve the heritage from which modern kendo arose. Although specific ryuu-ha cannot be identified (by intention,) the kata draw on the elements identified as being essential to the complete understanding and mastery of swordsmanship. The kodachi kata are essential.

(2) The budo that is companion to the bayonet combat art, jukendo, is called tankendo. As was stated, the tanken represents a handheld bayonet. Although (bayonets) are a recent development, the techinques have been drawn from pre-modern schools which included short-sword systems. In similar fashion, jukendo techniques were developed by the examination of jodo and sojutsu (spear) systems.

[hyouriittai]

WHAT?! Wow! And that's interesting about Kotaka's people, too, that they still use it. Anyone know where that thread went?


Our dojo is part of Kotaka-sensei's United States Classical Kendo Federation, and my sensei has performed these kneeling dou strikes on me several times. Pretty impressive; I wasn't expecting it, (of course, I am still very new to kendo.) However, when I tried this, I got a sound strike to men.

We use a number of different weapons in jigeiko, including naginata, nito, and shoto singularly. One of the jigeiko I'd participated in was my shoto against sensei's naginata. It was really intimidating, but I felt alot more mobile than my sensei. However, once entering the naginata's maai, I felt pretty confident in my strikes -- (then again, I realized too late that the naginata's shaft could be used for parrying and pushing me away.)

Anyway, because I feel so mobile with the shoto, I feel that it is something that I would like to have more experience in training with.

[ALI G]

Our dojo is part of Kotaka-sensei's United States Classical Kendo Federation, and my sensei has performed these kneeling dou strikes on me several times.

R U Surez dat he juzt didntz tripz on hizza hakamaz?

[hyouriittai]

R U Surez dat he juzt didntz tripz on hizza hakamaz?

Heh, maybe. I guess it's one of those things that you can never be sure of.

[ALI G]

Heh, maybe. I guess it's one of those things that you can never be sure of.

I tinkz he didz...