What would you do ????

[rainmaker]

I watched one of Law and Order episode and this girl was raped in New York public subway in front of other passanger. Most of those passangers were scared and did nothing until the rape was over. Even though it is TV episode, I was shocked that this can actually be happen to me too. What would you do if you were one of those passangers in the subway and have shinai or bokken with you ?

1) do nothing... You will feel like shit for the rest of your life...
2) Give him a warning and starts beat him with bokken... Risk of getting hurt..
2) Hit his head with bokken until he pass out or die... Risk of being getting hurt or sued.. Less chance to get hurt, stopping crime, but you will still feel guilty of killing some asshole..

Any lawyers out there, what will happen if it was case three ?? Is there chance that you will get charged with murder ??

[kanyil]

1) do nothing... You will feel like shit for the rest of your life...
2) Give him a warning and starts beat him with bokken... Risk of getting hurt..
2) Hit his head with bokken until he pass out or die... Risk of being getting hurt or sued.. Less chance to get hurt, stopping crime, but you will still feel guilty of killing some asshole..

Any lawyers out there, what will happen if it was case three ?? Is there chance that you will get charged with murder ??


It will feel bad to have done nothing. But in most countries, doing nothing may be the best option.

1) ditto

2) risk getting hurt.

Also risk getting charged by the police for assault & battery (up to 3-5 years in many jurisdictions), assault with deadly weapon (up to 15 years or more in many jurisdictions), and attempted murder (up to a life sentence) if the prosecutor in question wants to make an example out of you in order to gain publicity and get a judgeship quicker.

Even if you get sympathy from the jury/judge and gets off the charges, you would have still spent around 2 years in jail awaiting trial. Bail may sound easy, but could be *very* significant for the more serious charges.

Just because you are suppose to be the "hero" does not save you from prosecution. Law frowns upon vigilantes. Cops use to, and still shoot at batman.

There is also the matter of the civil complaint that the evildoer may lodge against you. He might very well clean you out with one of those.

3) Ditto.

If the guy dies you will get charged with murder, but it may get reduced to manslaughter, etc, if you play your cards right. You are still not getting out within the decade. Heck, you might even run into the guy's homies in prison, then it's on like donkey kong and you won't even have a bokken.

Good luck on getting bail as a murder suspect.

See above re: civil complaint. Funny enough, a dead person, in some jurisdictions, is worth less in court than a permanently disable person so you might get off a little easier.

4) VERY IMPORTANT: Don't forget to add legal fees of around USD$300-500 an hour on top of everything above if you want good legal advice. There is NO "no-win, no-fee" for criminal matters. :D

[KevinF]

Rainmaker,

I think common sense would tell you to attempt to stop the crime or assist the victim in some way, however, by using your bokken, you yourself may be commiting an assault (which is an illegal act). Besides which, using the bokken in the crowded space of a subway would be foolish - it will hinder you rather than help, I think.

Most states (including New York: N.Y. Pub. Health Law §3000-a(McKinney 2000)AED User Immunity, N.Y. Pub. Health Law §3000-b(McKinney 2000)(AED Def.) and N.Y. Pub. Health Law §3013 (McKinney 2000)(Gen. Stat.) have good samaritan laws which protect you when you render medical assistance to those in need. While these laws may not directly protect you in the case you mentioned, the spirit of the law certainly might apply.

I personally would not rely on the bokken, but rather first attempt to call 911 - if I can get reception in the subway - and then immediately attempt to grapple the assailant. However, any persons response must be crrefully measured - too little force and you may get yourself or the victim injured further and too much force and you will be prosecuted for assault.

[ISSAC RU]

Even though it is TV episode, I was shocked that this can actually be happen to me too.

Nobody is going to rape you , buddy. Don't get too much with yourself...
YOu ain't pretty after all....-_-

[rainmaker]

My my my Issac... so I guess you are pretty boy ???


Nobody is going to rape you , buddy. Don't get too much with yourself...
YOu ain't pretty after all....-_-

[rainmaker]

I know about Samaritan law.. But I was wondering about such situation. I will probably walk away such situation. It doesn't have to be rape. It can be assault, robbery or something else. All you can do is scream and call the cop... Wait until such assault is over. How frustrating !! I guess it is time for Batman..



Rainmaker,

I think common sense would tell you to attempt to stop the crime or assist the victim in some way, however, by using your bokken, you yourself may be commiting an assault (which is an illegal act). Besides which, using the bokken in the crowded space of a subway would be foolish - it will hinder you rather than help, I think.

Most states (including New York: N.Y. Pub. Health Law §3000-a(McKinney 2000)AED User Immunity, N.Y. Pub. Health Law §3000-b(McKinney 2000)(AED Def.) and N.Y. Pub. Health Law §3013 (McKinney 2000)(Gen. Stat.) have good samaritan laws which protect you when you render medical assistance to those in need. While these laws may not directly protect you in the case you mentioned, the spirit of the law certainly might apply.

I personally would not rely on the bokken, but rather first attempt to call 911 - if I can get reception in the subway - and then immediately attempt to grapple the assailant. However, any persons response must be crrefully measured - too little force and you may get yourself or the victim injured further and too much force and you will be prosecuted for assault.

[Alex_McGrady]

1) do nothing... You will feel like shit for the rest of your life...2) Give him a warning and starts beat him with bokken... Risk of getting hurt..3) Hit his head with bokken until he pass out or die... Risk of being getting hurt or sued.. Less chance to get hurt, stopping crime, but you will still feel guilty...what will happen if it was case three ?? Is there chance that you will get charged with murder ??

I like how Kanyil-san analyzed the question...Cheers to ya, Kanyil-san! I just wanted to add a few things that are specifically New York law. Each state is a bit different and New York may still be a bit behind in the evolution of its legal system.

You know the idea of self defense, so of course the girl being attacked has the right to defend herself by using reasonable force to protect herself. To use deadly force, there must be danger of serious injury or threat of life. It seems reasonable that the girl being attacked could use a bokken or shinai in such a case as you described because of the threat of serious bodily harm. New York is still a state that requires that when using deadly force, the person has an obligation to retreat is such a retreat is safe. There are some situations where retreat is not required, such as burglary and arson or in one's own house. Your "Law and Order" scenario seems that retreat would not be possible, or even necessary. So, therefore the girl being attacked could beat the guy with a weapon if she wanted even if it ended with the death of the perpetrator.

So, here is the catch. After a infamous death of a woman being killed by her husband while others sat and ignored it, laws were rewritten where a third party could also assert the same self defense argument as the person being attacked as long as the third party honestly believed the person was in trouble. Legislature wanted the public to help keep their environment safe. Self Defense or Defense of a Third Party. So, if you were to assist the girl in the subway, then you will have the same argument as I have written above so long as the girl was really in trouble, then your use of a deadly weapon could be justified. If they were just making out, then you would be busted HARD just as Kanyil-san has written. You would still be held to the standard of using reasonable force and if deadly force, then the retreat requirement would also apply to you.

The short version is that if you see someone in trouble, you can assist with their defense but if you are wrong and you help assist in an assult, then you will be treated as a criminal. Just make 100% sure that the person is in trouble (i.e. cries for help) then you can use the force reasonable for that situation.

Hey, just wanted to throw in my 2 pence.....

Cheers!!!!!!!!!!

Alex

[D'Artagnan]

So, here is the catch. After a infamous death of a woman being killed by her husband while others sat and ignored it, laws were rewritten where a third party could also assert the same self defense argument as the person being attacked as long as the third party honestly believed the person was in trouble. Legislature wanted the public to help keep their environment safe. Self Defense or Defense of a Third Party. So, if you were to assist the girl in the subway, then you will have the same argument as I have written above so long as the girl was really in trouble, then your use of a deadly weapon could be justified. If they were just making out, then you would be busted HARD just as Kanyil-san has written. You would still be held to the standard of using reasonable force and if deadly force, then the retreat requirement would also apply to you.


I believe that this is also the law here in the UK. ( I think thats what my old law teacher told me, shortly before I was kicked out of the class for asking too many irrelivant 'what if' questions)

Personally if I were in this situation, I would leave the bokken (but not out of reach) and tell the guy to stop, or I will kick the shit out of him. If he pulls a flick knife, grab the bokken. If not, kick his arse / or get you arse kicked for a good cause, the commotion would at least stop the attacker for long enough to attract enough attention.

[mingshi]

Can't you just pull the emergency handle thingy and make the whole train stop? :rolleyes:

New York subway is dangerous - everybody knows.

[KhawMengLee]

Depends on where you are. In Malaysia the law is very much on your side so if you shot or killed a rapist/robber its kudos for you.

[rainmaker]

Sadly, such things already happened in real life too...

in China,
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15102623-23109,00.html


New York..
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/predators/kitty_genovese/3.html?sect=2

[The great I AM]

My my my Issac... so I guess you are pretty boy ???

Hes pretty enough to drop the soap a few times a day, at least thats what my big gay mate Bubba tells me. He also says that Issac is "finger lickin' good", whatever that means...

[640x480]

no good person would ever stand there and see someone getting raped....if one person steps in, others prob. will help out too. Fear? Thats absurd, get over it and help em out! Thats at least what i think....

[bullet08]

i grew up in nyc back in 80s. people will walk by and will not 'notice' anything that's none of their business. maybe it has changed in last 20 yrs or so, but back then it used to be normal to hear stories such as this all the time. as for cops back in nyc in 80s? hell, they were never around when you needed them. i know of few store owners who got shot, called the cops.. cops didn't arrive until 30min to 1hr later.

knew this indian fella who owned a little shop down the street.. a guy walked in, shot the owner.. walked out in a daylight. the guy called the 911 on his own after the robber walked out. cops and EMS didn't come for 30 min, and the hospital was only 5 min drive from there and the police station was less than 15 min away. go figure.

best thing to do in such situation is to kick the crap out of the guy as quickly and hard as possible (and multiple times if necessary) on the head. hope he doesn't die. and walk away. believe it or not, if it was in nyc back in 80s, no one will remember you as the person who kick the crap out that raper like people didn't 'notice' that girl getting raped. no one wants to get involved in anything back then :)

pete

[Mugu]

I watched one of Law and Order episode and this girl was raped in New York public subway in front of other passanger. Most of those passangers were scared and did nothing until the rape was over. Even though it is TV episode, I was shocked that this can actually be happen to me too. What would you do if you were one of those passangers in the subway and have shinai or bokken with you ?

1) do nothing... You will feel like shit for the rest of your life...
2) Give him a warning and starts beat him with bokken... Risk of getting hurt..
2) Hit his head with bokken until he pass out or die... Risk of being getting hurt or sued.. Less chance to get hurt, stopping crime, but you will still feel guilty of killing some asshole..

Any lawyers out there, what will happen if it was case three ?? Is there chance that you will get charged with murder ??

There was also real cases a few months back in South Africa the bus drivers were rapping girls who wear short skirts. and people did absolutely nothing because the bus drivers said the girls temp them. But then, that's Africa, a lot of things don't make sense there sometimes.

As for the bokken/Shinai, do we really have to hit them multiple times to knock them out? ;) Come on, just do a really good shomen on him he'll sleep like a baby :D That, you can avoid being charge for almost everything :p

[KhawMengLee]

There was also real cases a few months back in South Africa the bus drivers were rapping girls who wear short skirts. and people did absolutely nothing because the bus drivers said the girls temp them. But then, that's Africa, a lot of things don't make sense there sometimes.

As for the bokken/Shinai, do we really have to hit them multiple times to knock them out? ;) Come on, just do a really good shomen on him he'll sleep like a baby :D That, you can avoid being charge for almost everything :p

We had a case here a few months back where 6 Africans gang raped this woman over a period of 3 days. Four of them pretented to ask her directions and grabbed her when she approached their car. They drove around for an hour before they took her to a house where they beat and raped her. Two more of them joined them and did the same. They released her after a few days.

The cops caught them when their neighbours reported how they always see women battered and bleeding leaving their home. They were picking up women or prostitutes and then bringing them back to the house where they would tie them up and beat them afterwhich they would rape them.

These guys were animals. Not only did they rape the women but they beat them first for sport. I'm all for human rights but these guys should be tortured, crucified and then burned alive. Human rights for people who act human.

[piggy]

human rights for people who act human. thats one of the greatest things ive heard in a long time. if only our justice system was based on that. if some guy raped my wife, i would want him to receive way more than some jail time.

a bus driver ran a red light and killed 2 teenagers in dong so. he got 3 years in prison. the kids friends were so enraged at the sentence given, they raced out of the courtroom and beat the bus driver. the kids received no punishment.

[KhawMengLee]

human rights for people who act human. thats one of the greatest things ive heard in a long time. if only our justice system was based on that. if some guy raped my wife, i would want him to receive way more than some jail time.

a bus driver ran a red light and killed 2 teenagers in dong so. he got 3 years in prison. the kids friends were so enraged at the sentence given, they raced out of the courtroom and beat the bus driver. the kids received no punishment.

Didn't a mother in Italy (or was it Spain?) kill her daughter's rapist recently? The guy raped her 13 year old daughter 9 years ago. He was out on parole and stopped by her house and asked the mother, "How's you daughter?"

He then went to a pub and she came in a while later, tapped his shoulder and when he turned around she threw a bottle of gasoline on him, lit a match and FWOOOOSH!

He died 11 hours or so later in hospital.

[ISSAC RU]

This thread is pretty gay.

[Paikea]

Given the situation as described, there's a categorical imperative (Kant was a smart guy for a heretic) at work - if you are capable of acting, you must act. Given that, then you act to stop the violence (and the threat) - you put the guy down as hard and fast as you can. Dangerous, yeah, bordering on stupid but if there really are no alternatives then that's the hand you've been dealt and it's time to play it. Chivalry and fair play are for the movies and English Gentlemen. :wink:

Then, pull the handle thingy and prepare to deal with the consequences.

[Andou]

Given the situation as described, there's a categorical imperative (Kant was a smart guy for a heretic) at work - if you are capable of acting, you must act. Given that, then you act to stop the violence (and the threat) - you put the guy down as hard and fast as you can. Dangerous, yeah, bordering on stupid but if there really are no alternatives then that's the hand you've been dealt and it's time to play it. Chivalry and fair play are for the movies and English Gentlemen. :wink:

Then, pull the handle thingy and prepare to deal with the consequences.

That's true...I never walk out of the house without a pocketful of sand for any potential attackers...On a more serious note though, I think it's amazing that not one person would do a single thing if they witnessed a crime. Well if it were maybe 10 guys mugging someone in the alley, for your own welfare it might be better to not get physically involved but make sure no one is killed, but if you're sitting there on a subway with some folks around you and you see some stuff going down...it's foolish not to try and help them.

[Paikea]

Chivalry and fair play are for the movies and English Gentlemen. :wink:Should have written: "In this situation..." as Chivalry, Fair Play and the occasional English Gentleman are generally good things to have in civilized society. Gibbo-san and the soap thing require more thought, however.

[Andou]

Should have written: "In this situation..." as Chivalry, Fair Play and the occasional English Gentleman are generally good things to have in civilized society. Gibbo-san and the soap thing require more thought, however.

I know no civilized society without one!

[rainmaker]

But you are still keep coming back... Maybe you don't know you are gay too...



This thread is pretty gay.

[piggy]

it must have been italy because my cousin said that he saw it on the news. it sucks too because she took my idea! (just kidding obviously)



Didn't a mother in Italy (or was it Spain?) kill her daughter's rapist recently? The guy raped her 13 year old daughter 9 years ago. He was out on parole and stopped by her house and asked the mother, "How's you daughter?"

He then went to a pub and she came in a while later, tapped his shoulder and when he turned around she threw a bottle of gasoline on him, lit a match and FWOOOOSH!

He died 11 hours or so later in hospital.

[crabbi]

I am a very pretty gay.

Ah... finally I see where you're coming from... you are just jealous...!

[crabbi]

In answer to your question Sungmin-San...

I would get involved without hesitation.

I wouldn't use the bokken / shinai... I'd just punch the guy... tell his victim to run away and call the police and then deal with the consequences...

I know I would do this as I have done it before and I would certainly do it again (in this case it was an attempted mugging not a rape... but the principle is the same...)... ... and I find it disgusting that other people would not do the same...!

Heck, I'd even rush to help Isaac Ru if I was sure he wasn't enjoying it...

cheers

[Andou]

Ah... finally I see where you're coming from... you are just jealous...!

GOD...LOL that's terrible!

[DarQik]

I can't imagine not getting involved, but there's a *lot* of details that are missing. How many assailants, what weapons they were carrying, what actions or posture they were taking towards onlookers, etc...

Part of basic human nature is to protect yourself first and others second. I can say that I've watched cars stolen and did nothing. I also noted that of the men stealing the cars in both times were carrying weapons and looking for an excuse to use them. On the other hand, I've also challenged people who weren't packing weapons, and they backed down.

Big cities can be very dangerous places. The areas in Detroit where I've worked include places where I wouldn't get out my car even if someone crashed into me (a tactic actually used to rob people at gunpoint when exiting their vehicle). I've also pushed my luck to help stranded people in some pretty questionable places, and passed stranded people screaming for help without much of a second thought (lady the car's completely on fire get *away* from it, whatever's in the trunk is already burned).

What-if's are usually interesting mental exercises, but they often have flawed premises and incomplete framing. Generalizations about such events are typically worthless. Personally, if push comes to shove, I would hope that I would be able to follow through and help save someone regardless of the improper social consequences.

Needless to say, I wouldn't call America a civilized place somedays...

[ISSAC RU]

Ah... finally I see where I am from..A land of Gays.!

Sweeet , now I see the true Crabbi...Next time when I steam you , I will
be sure to check ur underpart.

[crabbi]

Sweeet , now I see the true Crabbi...Next time when I steam you , I will
be sure to check ur underpart.
ROFL...!

Nice one Isaac !!!

[Sepiraph]

Back to the original thread's topic, it does not surprise me that people would do nothing in such situations. The majority of the people in the society are followers, not leaders. They have what I like to term as the 'sheep' mentality that would not be the first to act. They might be good people, but they are helpless to act unless someone else act first.

Anyhow, I'm pretty sure one can google some psychological research done on this.

[kanyil]

Human rights for people who act human.

I totally agree with the spirit of the quote.

But what if you got the wrong guy? Cops/prosecutors/judges/juries are human too, and are not always right. No apology (if any) is going to be good enough for 20 (or even .5) lost years spent behind bars, or somebody who's death sentence has already been carried out.

He then went to a pub and she came in a while later, tapped his shoulder and when he turned around she threw a bottle of gasoline on him, lit a match and FWOOOOSH! He died 11 hours or so later in hospital.

What happened to the mother? This is clearly a case of pre-meditated murder, although she might be able to get the sentence reduced somewhat, since the entire premise has so much public appeal (dead child, grieving mother, gloating paroled rapist).

Don't know about Italy, but provocation is generally no defense for murder, only assault/battery.

Frankly, I am surprised that anyone should be surprised that the law does not equal justice. Justice is subjective, and your might not agree with what I perceive to be justice, and vice versa. All the talks about justice is very nice, easy to listen to, and emotionally stirring as that's what we all want, but such talks are ultimately also useless as they are impossible to achieve.

The law, on the other hand, should be about the management of a society by maintaining some minimum standards to ensure that the system does not break down. It doesn't always work, but at least it's working well enough in most countries so that people are not revolting.

[crabbi]

There are some very interesting psychological case studies and theories in this area of 'Altruism and Bystander Behaviour'... lots of research has gone into what motivates people to help others or ignore them when they are in trouble.

Perhaps one of the best-documented and most disturbing cases was that of the unfortunate Kitty Genovese who, in 1964, was killed in an attack that took over 40 minutes. Despite her screams for assistance, none of the 38 witnesses (many watching from the comfort of their own apartments...), in the New York street where she lived, either helped or even called the police !

If you are interested in this then Google 'Batson's empathy-altruism hypothesis', 'Cialdini's negative-state relief model', Lataneand Darley's cognitive model' and The arousal: cost-reward model'...

All of this is covered in standard Psychology textbooks...

cheers

[Hisham]

I watched one of Law and Order episode and this girl was raped in New York public subway in front of other passanger. Most of those passangers were scared and did nothing until the rape was over. Even though it is TV episode, I was shocked that this can actually be happen to me too. What would you do if you were one of those passangers in the subway and have shinai or bokken with you ?

1) do nothing... You will feel like shit for the rest of your life...
2) Give him a warning and starts beat him with bokken... Risk of getting hurt..
2) Hit his head with bokken until he pass out or die... Risk of being getting hurt or sued.. Less chance to get hurt, stopping crime, but you will still feel guilty of killing some asshole..

Any lawyers out there, what will happen if it was case three ?? Is there chance that you will get charged with murder ??

Out here no one would dare do that cuse everybody would take the oportunity to beat the hell out of a thief let alone a rapist to blow out some steam, actually getting involved to stop a fight...etc is second nature here.
I remember one day a stupid thief tried his luck at a grocery store near a mosque while the people who just finished there friday prayer were getting out filled with righthous feelings, i'll let you imagine the end, it's always a team effort :D
In Montreal though there was some guy who beat down somebody with a hammer in a subway train while people stood still as if nothing was happening.
As Kanyil pointed out people in some countries have been rendered indifferent because the fact that you helped somebody doesn't automatically let you off the hook, but again if it's a team effort;)

[kanyil]

Perhaps one of the best-documented and most disturbing cases was that of the unfortunate Kitty Genovese who, in 1964, was killed in an attack that took over 40 minutes. Despite her screams for assistance, none of the 38 witnesses (many watching from the comfort of their own apartments...), in the New York street where she lived, either helped or even called the police !


That's the first example that came to mind too! Although Kitty Genovese had the dubious honour of being the wife of one of the most feared mob bosses in New York at the time, whom would presumably be the mastermind to quite a few "violent encounters" himself. So this tragic episode was also a little ironic.

It's hard to not wonder whether some onlookers knew precisely who she is, and cheered on the bad guys as they watched. But then again, I'm a cynical man. :D

[Yiu Fai]

I'd certaintly try and stop what was happening, but I wouldnt use unneccessary force. No way would I use the bokken unless they had a knife or something. Stop what was happening, then restrain the offender until police arrived.

[Misaki]

ok i'm a resident of NYC and all the subway carts have signs that says "Do not pull emergency handle" that's cause it usually delay cops/medics at getting to the train and provide help, so don't! you'll get to station faster train will open doors and police will come. So instead of pulling brakes, i'd go to rapist stick my k-bar on his throat, and then tell the train dispacher we got a dead rapist in the cart, ppl like that deserve no warning especially cause they are usually armed and dangerous. I also wouldn't use the bokken cause like you guys said before, space is kind of small and would make things more difficult.

[Wes Nazo]

This is a very interesting topic.

Unfortunately, I live in Washington State. Here, the law says that if someone is attacking you (let's say they have a gun or knife), you have to follow these steps:
1) Call for help. If that doesn't work...
2) Try to get away. If that doesn't work...
3) Try to defend yourself, but do not strike the offender.
4) Stike the offender, but not in a leathal way (you still might go to jail).
5) Use leathal force. (you still might go to jail)

Of course, by step 2 you could already be shot or stabbed. Thanks a lot liberals.

In Florida, the Republicans (in one of the few things I agree with them with) are trying to pass a law that says if someone is attacking you, you can kill them and it will be considered justifiable homicide.
Example: You're in your car and some guy in front of you points a gun at you. You now have the right to plow over them with your car.

Opponents to this law say this will turn the state into "lawless, wild west anarchy."

[Misaki]

Well I was recently stationed at NAS Pensacola-Florida, and all I gotta say is WILD WILD WEST baby!!!!

[ISSAC RU]

Hes pretty enough to drop the soap a few times a day, at least thats what my big gay mate Bubba tells me. He also says that Issac is "finger lickin' good", whatever that means...

Its acutally '' Figer Lin'ling Good '' If you watch the Simpsons you will
know what I am talking about.

[Gregory]

I watched one of Law and Order episode and this girl was raped in New York public subway in front of other passanger. Most of those passangers were scared and did nothing until the rape was over. Even though it is TV episode, I was shocked that this can actually be happen to me too. What would you do if you were one of those passangers in the subway and have shinai or bokken with you ?

1) do nothing... You will feel like shit for the rest of your life...
2) Give him a warning and starts beat him with bokken... Risk of getting hurt..
2) Hit his head with bokken until he pass out or die... Risk of being getting hurt or sued.. Less chance to get hurt, stopping crime, but you will still feel guilty of killing some asshole..

Any lawyers out there, what will happen if it was case three ?? Is there chance that you will get charged with murder ??


Under case 3 noone would prosecute and if they wanted to they couldnt because of the good sameritan law. Its the same law that says if you kill someone why trying to help them/some one else, you arent responsible.

For example, a more extreme case, but still and example. If some thing like columbine happens and I kill them (the crazies) I can not get prosecuted

[KhawMengLee]

I totally agree with the spirit of the quote.

But what if you got the wrong guy? Cops/prosecutors/judges/juries are human too, and are not always right. No apology (if any) is going to be good enough for 20 (or even .5) lost years spent behind bars, or somebody who's death sentence has already been carried out.



You know...I used to be on the left with this one. But After getting robbed at machete point I have a totally different view on it. Still tho' when I went for the identity parade, there was one guy the cops said is indirectly involved(a fencer). I could not picture him being part of the gang so I let it slide. Even though it would have helped the investigation...sigh

Right now, I'd rather one innocent man go to jail than let 20 rapists slip through the loophole.



What happened to the mother? This is clearly a case of pre-meditated murder, although she might be able to get the sentence reduced somewhat, since the entire premise has so much public appeal (dead child, grieving mother, gloating paroled rapist).

Don't know about Italy, but provocation is generally no defense for murder, only assault/battery.

Frankly, I am surprised that anyone should be surprised that the law does not equal justice. Justice is subjective, and your might not agree with what I perceive to be justice, and vice versa. All the talks about justice is very nice, easy to listen to, and emotionally stirring as that's what we all want, but such talks are ultimately also useless as they are impossible to achieve.

The law, on the other hand, should be about the management of a society by maintaining some minimum standards to ensure that the system does not break down. It doesn't always work, but at least it's working well enough in most countries so that people are not revolting.

Yes...laws are more guidelines than gospel set in stone. While the law states provocation is no grounds for murder. I think justice was done. If a man raped my daughter, law or no law I'd put a bullet or blade through his heart. Once a person chooses to act like a demon they don't deserve to live.

[Stealth]

They have what I like to term as the 'sheep' mentality that would not be the first to act. They might be good people, but they are helpless to act unless someone else act first.

Anyhow, I'm pretty sure one can google some psychological research done on this.

You mean something like this? :

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/08/AR2005070800553.html

[kanyil]

Under case 3 noone would prosecute and if they wanted to they couldnt because of the good sameritan law. Its the same law that says if you kill someone why trying to help them/some one else, you arent responsible.

Umm...I don't know the US "Good Samaritan" Law, but it's actual application is probably a little bit more complicated than, and different to how you've described it.

Chances are, it's only a defense to be used during your trial (can you say 1 to 2 years waiting in county jail and thousands of dollars in legal fees?), and not a grant of carte-blanche immunity. I'll bet it's also no guarantee of acquittal either.

[Ninjujinkaku]

You wouldnt stop someone determined with a shinai. And i doubt you would just happen to have a bokken on you. It would be best to just stomp him or tap on the shoulder then a cheap shot to the face. Either way you should act, what if something like that happened to your sister or your mother? You would want someone to step in wouldnt you?

[kanyil]

Either way you should act, what if something like that happened to your sister or your mother? You would want someone to step in wouldnt you?

Of course. But it's far better to step in fully informed than ignorant. And know how to work the system.

(i.e. Beat the bad guy but don't kill him. Make sure the bystanders know what you are doing, and that you are the hero. Don't stick around after you are done unless the cops are already there. Stash all your money in offshore trust fund held by companies. etc)

[Charuzu]

Please.... stop the gay bashing. My sister and many of my friends are gay. It is rude to compare anyone to ISSAC RYU. How would you guys feel if someone said ISSAC is such a greaaat Kendoka, ne?

[rainmaker]

I am so sorry if we made such comment. We have right to hurt others feeling who are not even involved in this. I really appreciate that you are standing out for your sister and friend. Unlike Issac Ru, you seems like a man with integrity and honour.



Please.... stop the gay bashing. My sister and many of my friends are gay. It is rude to compare anyone to ISSAC RYU. How would you guys feel if someone said ISSAC is such a greaaat Kendoka, ne?

[Charuzu]

I am so sorry if we made such comment. We have right to hurt others feeling who are not even involved in this. I really appreciate that you are standing out for your sister and friend. Unlike Issac Ru, you seems like a man with integrity and honour.

Thanks you are too kind ^o^

I also know how hard it is to change ones lanuage, just one hour ago I used the word faggat while talking with my sis.... she just filed me out and corrected me. Thank you very mich Rainmaker-san. We need more open-minded people like you out there. And If you are reading this ISSAC just know that the only reason why we are filing you out is becuse you said some hurtful things. Just please do the smart thing and say "I'm sorry". Those simple words can make a worlds diffrence

[rainmaker]

ooops. soory, I meant "we have NO right to hurt ~~~.."



I am so sorry if we made such comment. We have right to hurt others feeling who are not even involved in this. I really appreciate that you are standing out for your sister and friend. Unlike Issac Ru, you seems like a man with integrity and honour.

[nasrullah]

Well if I would have seen a rapist raping a girl without any warning I would surely kill him and give him one of the worst deaths which he never imagined in his life. Never leave Rapist alive!

[h2o]

Well if I would have seen a rapist raping a girl without any warning I would surely kill him and give him one of the worst deaths which he never imagined in his life. Never leave Rapist alive!
Now you are confusing me... Are you saying that you would kill him without warning, or that you would act only if the rapist raped without warning his/her victim? :confused2
I mean, the second alternative must be sort of uncommon :P

[Anjin-san]

Yeah yeah, you're all superheroes, good stuff.

[rainmaker]

Sad but important thing is Super hero might be end up in jail..



Yeah yeah, you're all superheroes, good stuff.

[SkippyDaStudent]

I heard about this guy who was charged with interfering in police matters because he jumped into a river or something to save a guy from drowning who the cops were unable to help.

But yeah, I would gladly spend time in jail if it meant that I stopped someone from getting raped. If I had a booken or shinai, I'd beat the guy half to death. If I had nothing but my hands, I'd beat the guy half to death. Either way, he wouldn't be raping anymore.

[Sepiraph]

From another forum...

http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RTD%2FMGArticle%
If Fitzroy Barnaby is a bitter man these days, he has a right to be.

Three years ago Barnaby, a 28-year-old resident of Des Plaines, Illinois, swerved to avoid hitting a 14-year-old girl with his car. Upset, he allegedly yelled, "Come here, little girl," then got out of his car and grabbed the lass by the arm to give her a good stern talking-to -- as many adults have done when kids have done stupidly dangerous things.

She broke his grip and ran. He was hauled up on charges of attempted kidnapping and child abduction.

He was acquitted -- though convicted of a lesser offense: unlawful restraint of a minor.

The other day an Illinois appellate court says he nevertheless has to register as a sex offender. The court acknowledged that it might be "unfair for [Barnaby] to suffer the stigmatization of being labeled a sex offender when his crime was not sexually motivated." But it didn't care that much. Sign up, buddy.

The case is a cautionary tale for adults. Try to teach a kid a lesson that might save his or her life, and you could be marked for the rest of yours.

Sometimes justice is indeed blind. Michael Jackson seemingly gets away with who-knows-what, but Barnaby has to register as a sex offender.

We're guessing he's pretty bitter. We're certain he has a right to be.

http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050706/OPINION01/507060334/1035/OPINION

You might think things have gone a bit wacky lately on the courts and crimes beat.

We have the U.S. Supreme Court deciding a city can bulldoze your house if the motel some developer wants to build will bring in more property taxes. Even Tom DeLay and Maxine Waters are together in their criticism of that absurdity.

Then we have the governor of Iowa restoring voting rights to convicted felons, even if they haven't paid court-ordered restitution to their victims. The governor did this on Independence Day, no less.

One can only imagine what the founding fathers would have thought of those two moves.

But this next one, the case of a fellow named Fitzroy Barnaby, would likely make Adams, Jefferson and Madison laugh out loud. Or cry.

Pretend for a minute you're the unlucky Mr. Barnaby.

You're driving down the street obeying traffic laws and generally being a good citizen, when some idiot kid wanders into traffic.

You slam on the brakes and swerve, missing the kid and leaving a puddle on the car seat.

You have two choices. You can shut up, drive home 5 miles an hour and have a stiff belt. Or you can take a moment to tell the kid how she almost got herself killed and ruined your life forever.

You're better off going with the first option, considering what happened to Barnaby, who went with the second.

This is because the 28-year-old Evanston, Ill., man ended up - and this is not a joke - being officially branded a sex offender.

The facts, as reported in the Chicago Sun-Times, show that an angry Barnaby called to the 14-year-old he'd nearly run down, yelling, "Come here, little girl."

He then got out of his car, took her by the arm and gave her a lecture about how stepping in front of a vehicle is a very bad idea.

The girl ran away, complained to police and Barnaby was charged with - again no joke - attempted kidnapping and child abduction. This is even though he didn't attempt to take the girl anywhere. Barnaby beat those charges.

He was, however, convicted of unlawful restraint of a minor. And in Illinois, that is considered a sex offense.

That means even though he didn't do anything to the kid other than take her by the arm and give her a lecture that might end up saving her life, he must register as a sex offender. He is prohibited from living near a park or school and must keep local police advised as to his place of residence.

He might even get his name and picture in the local newspaper, to advise neighbors they're living near a sex offender.

How is this possible, you ask?

Well, a spokesman in the prosecutor's office said, the guy should be considered a sex offender "because of the proclivity of offenders who restrain children to also commit sex acts or other crimes against them."

Now we'll let the Appellate Court of Illinois, which upheld this insanity last week, explain itself.

While it may well be "unfair for (Barnaby) to suffer the stigmatization of being labeled a sex offender when his crime was not sexually motivated," grabbing a kid is "often a precursor" to a child being molested, the court said.

"It is (Barnaby's) actions which have caused him to be stigmatized, not the court," the ruling said.

Trial court judge Patrick Morse even conceded Barnaby's only apparent intention was to chastise the girl.

But, the judge said, "I can't read his mind."

Barnaby's lawyer, Frederick Cohn, of Chicago, provided a succinct assessment of the situation: "This is the most stupid ruling the appellate court has rendered in years."

Makes you wonder what Illinois judges have done in years past to equal or top this one.

Could this happen in Iowa?

Maybe. Say you hold a kid by the arm while you're chewing him out for tromping through your flower bed. You could be charged with "false imprisonment." And the Iowa Code says a person convicted of any criminal offense against a minor has to register as a sex offender.

Better to silently suffer the flattened flowers. As Barnaby learned, anything can happen when you're hauled in a courtroom.

He probably just should've ran over the girl to save himself all that trouble and that judge is incredibly stupid to not throw the case out of the court.

[frantic_ad]

I am a kyukushin karateka and I know a little bit aikido-jujitsu and a little kendo, i would hit him on the head then apply a jujitsu choke-hold till he passes out.. otherwise just drag him around with that same choke-hold, drop him on the ground and hit him on his exposed genitalia or anywhere my heel can reach.

Osu!

[frantic_ad]

http://come-getsome.blogspot.com

[ninjamster15]

things like this happen every day. i read a report once that went something like this (this was in the US):
A woman was walking home from work at 7 pm and was in an apartment complex. man when and stabbed a woman. the woman started screaming and the man ran away. several people in the houses nearby turned on light, looked out the window, saw the woman, and went back to sleep. the man came back, stabbed her again, and she screamed. this time, someone opened a window and started yelling at the guy to leave the woman alone. he runs of...and no one tries to help her. the third time he comes back, he kills her. Also, about a year ago, in california, a woman was kidnapped in a crowed parking lot. no one tried to help her. People these days won't help someone, even if there lives are in danger. They're too afraid of what might happen to them to worry about the suffering of another. Bottom line:People won't help because they're weak, unable and unwilling to help anyone but themselves.

[ninjamster15]

or, because there really is nothing they can do. even if there is something you could do, it probably isn't a good idea(i just realized), because of the possiblity of concealed weapons (like guns). Plus, even if you do win, there is a good chance you will go to jail. did you know in michigan theres a law saying if someone breaks into your house, and you attack them, they can sue you? its a retarded law, but some would-be burglars have actually won cases like this in the past. i know this is contradictory to my last post...i wrote the otherone reeeaaallllly late last night and wasn't really thinks straight (typical american, i know)

[piggy]

its sad but the bottom line is, people need to fend for themselves. thanks to all the new humane protection laws, noone can interfere and prevent a death or rape anymore. the only time you can use a handgun in my state is when you've already been hit. and depending on how many times you've been shot or the caliber of the bullet, you wont be in any condition to shoot back.

i dont worry about myself getting into rouble. i mostly worry about my female friends and family. (lets face it, males are naturaly stronger than females.) i worry because alot of them have care free attitudes about this sort of thing. "it will never happen to me Dominic. don't worry" well, when it does, theres absolutely nothing i can do. the system of laws is pretty messed up. maybe in the future they'll find a way to change it though...

[Wes Nazo]

i mostly worry about my female friends and family. (lets face it, males are naturaly stronger than females.) i worry because alot of them have care free attitudes about this sort of thing. "it will never happen to me Dominic. don't worry" well, when it does, theres absolutely nothing i can do. the system of laws is pretty messed up. maybe in the future they'll find a way to change it though...

My now ex-girlfriend told me about how she had been sexually assulted while we were in a boarding school a few years back. It was one of the guys in the dorm whom I practically saw everyday. She didn't tell me this till a few years later, so this guy got away with it.

I hate that feeling of knowing when someone you love has been harmed and you can't do anything about it.

[Andoru]

Kanyi: surely the court of equity would come to the aid of the "batman"?

But you're right - when I was in law school I remember reading up on this saving the innocent stuff. While there is no duty to save strangers in distress, I recall reading that one has an obligation (duty of care requirement) to do so if that someone in distress is a person you are related to i.e. a relative or a friend.

[Nameless]

It's sad that we live in a world where the laws are designed to protect the guilty at the expense of the innocent.

[drizzt]

come to texas.....here the phrase "I shoot tresspasers " is a warning not a joke.....

[kanyil]

Kanyi: surely the court of equity would come to the aid of the "batman"?

But you're right - when I was in law school I remember reading up on this saving the innocent stuff. While there is no duty to save strangers in distress, I recall reading that one has an obligation (duty of care requirement) to do so if that someone in distress is a person you are related to i.e. a relative or a friend.

Ha, "he who seeks equity must come with clean hands"...I doubt Batman's latex gloves would qualify...but then again, unless he hires one of us, that is. ;)

I think the word you are thinking about is "proximity". Which is not exactly the relationship as you've described, more a test on whether you and the person in question are "related" enough for you to have a duty to extend a hand (i.e. a perfect stranger could qualify under the right circumstances).
Don't quote me on this though 'cause I've always been more the corporate shark type.

(the above is just the ramblings of a guy who's been knocked in the head by huge bamboo sticks once too many, no part of this post should be taken as legal advice)

[nodaka]

Rainmaker,

I think common sense would tell you to attempt to stop the crime or assist the victim in some way, .

You would hope that people had this type of sense. Unfortunately this is not the case for the most part and the episode is not far from real. Sometime ago, i think in the late 70's or early 80's a woman was raped and killed infront of her apartment building door. While her neighbors watched and did nothing. They did not even have the GD common sense of calling the police.

[kendonewbie]

Sometime ago, i think in the late 70's or early 80's a woman was raped and killed infront of her apartment building door. While her neighbors watched and did nothing. They did not even have the GD common sense of calling the police.

Something like this happened recently..(have a poor sense of time, so "recently" could be as long as two or three years ago) A woman in California (i think) was kidnapped in a crowded parking..garage. There were about 12 to 15 people
that stood by and watched. All of them just watched.

I honestly can't say what I would do in this situation because i've never been in/witnessed firsthand a situation such as the above. Its easy to say "OMG! Why doesn't anyone help that person!" but i'd imagine things would be different when actually confronted with this situation. Probably call the police...I know I'd do at least that much...but fight? hmm....

[piggy]

I would probably help her at the expense of going to jail but in the end, I would feel like a good person instead of being guilty for the rest of my life.

[Maro]

You do what you have to. Being belligerent would probably be enough in this case.

Most people confronted by someone being belligerent will back down. Make sure you vocalise all of your warnings - "Step back from the woman NOW" etc so all the witnesses hear.

If he declines, move in.

I know what I'd do.

[kendonewbie]

I would probably help her at the expense of going to jail but in the end, I would feel like a good person instead of being guilty for the rest of my life.
Hmm....yeah, good point. As to how to take them down...hmm. You'd be surprised at how good some of the most unlikely people are at fighting. I have had the humiliating experience of losing multiple MA sparring matches to a five foot girl (i'm almost 5' 11"). This kid has the right idea..
http://www.nd.edu/~arodrig6/bazooka.jpg
I'm sure whoever is kicking the woman around will think twice when looking down the end of this!:D

[Hai_hai]

This is an old scenario. 1. crime occuring in broad daylight. 2. everyone around does nothing. Television show writers have no new ideas.

[rainmaker]

Very honorable thing to do.. But if you have a family that depending on you, it might be tough decision. I would feel so frustrated. I will feel like shit for the rest of my life but my first priority is to protect my son and wife and well being.

Actually, such inhumane crimes happened at Superdome, New Orleans during Katrina. During day, it was shelter for 10,000 homelss, but during night, without light, it was hell. Gansters brought little girls to restroom and raped and killed them. I am sure they, citizen & governement, prepared for such catastrophe.

Read this.. Nightmare in New Orleans (http://www.madison.com/tct/mad/local//index.php?ntid=54490)

Watch this... Looting (http://media.putfile.com/tdy_quintanilla_looting_050831)

I would probably help her at the expense of going to jail but in the end, I would feel like a good person instead of being guilty for the rest of my life.

[piggy]

Actually, such inhumane crimes happened at Superdome, New Orleans during Katrina. During day, it was shelter for 10,000 homelss, but during night, without light, it was hell. Gansters brought little girls to restroom and raped and killed them. I am sure they, citizen & governement, prepared for such catastrophe.

Read this.. Nightmare in New Orleans (http://www.madison.com/tct/mad/local//index.php?ntid=54490)

Stuff like that makes me dissapointed in the human race. Millions of years of evolution only to result in such. Like I said, I would try to defend a person in trouble but to agree with you, if it endangers my lover, my kids or my family, i'll have to sit and watch with remorse.

[Maro]

The problem is though that if you don't step in, what happens to yout G/F Family if you are not around.

Unfortunately, no-one is willing to step in to assist your family. It's a vicous circle.

[kanyil]

Sometime ago, i think in the late 70's or early 80's a woman was raped and killed infront of her apartment building door. While her neighbors watched and did nothing. They did not even have the GD common sense of calling the police.

That's probably the case I referred to earlier. That lady's Catherine Genovese, the wife of the biggest mafia boss in New York at the time...Maybe there's a reason why nobody helped? But then again, who knows.

My now ex-girlfriend told me about how she had been sexually assulted while we were in a boarding school a few years back. It was one of the guys in the dorm whom I practically saw everyday. She didn't tell me this till a few years later, so this guy got away with it.

No, she could still report it to the police and throw his ass in jail. The defense lawyer's cross-examination of your ex-gf might not be very pretty though.

I would probably help her at the expense of going to jail but in the end, I would feel like a good person instead of being guilty for the rest of my life.

If you "help" her forcefully enough, you might end up feeling like a good person for the rest of your life behind bars.

The problem is though that if you don't step in, what happens to yout G/F Family if you are not around.

The thing is, even if you do step in, there's still no guarantee that someone else will step in when your loved ones need the assistance. On the other hand, even if you do NOT step in, there's still a chance that someone else may help your loved ones out.

[Eamer]

I watched one of Law and Order episode and this girl was raped in New York public subway in front of other passanger. Most of those passangers were scared and did nothing until the rape was over. Even though it is TV episode, I was shocked that this can actually be happen to me too. What would you do if you were one of those passangers in the subway and have shinai or bokken with you ?

1) do nothing... You will feel like shit for the rest of your life...
2) Give him a warning and starts beat him with bokken... Risk of getting hurt..
2) Hit his head with bokken until he pass out or die... Risk of being getting hurt or sued.. Less chance to get hurt, stopping crime, but you will still feel guilty of killing some asshole..

Any lawyers out there, what will happen if it was case three ?? Is there chance that you will get charged with murder ??

It really depends on my mood, sometimes I will let anything go and be really harsh to people, especially people I don't know personally because my head tells me "you don't know them, so they don't matter". I can't help that thought but it's there. Would probably be better if it weren't. But sometimes I will be in the opposite mood where I don't care about myself and will try to stop it not caring for my physical health. You can't really say unless you are in that position and I hope I don't get put in that position or anyone else does because those are the times when everything in your head mixes up and you end up thinking too much about it until it is too late. Depends how you react to the shock of it all...

[Maro]

The thing is, even if you do step in, there's still no guarantee that someone else will step in when your loved ones need the assistance. On the other hand, even if you do NOT step in, there's still a chance that someone else may help your loved ones out.

True but what can you do?

[kendonewbie]

Found this while flipping through my C.J. textbook. It seems fairly relevant to this thread topic, so I thought i'd type it up. This is pretty much the rules of the usage of force for LAW OFFICALS. Do not go out and play vigilante, then quote this, please. I'd imagine that the laws for civilian use of force would be similar.....but, I've just started studying this, so I can't say for sure.The paragraphs are fairly long..so I watered it down a bit.
Usage of Force
1. General policy
-Law enforcement agencies must recognize and respect the value and dignity of every person.
-When officers are confronted with a situation where control is required to efffect arrest or protect the public safety, officers should first attempt to achieve control through advice, warnings, etc. If verbal attempts appear to be ineffective, an officer may use force within nessacary reason.
-Officers should only use an amount of force nessacry to effectively bring an incident under control, while protecting the lives of others.

2. Deadly force
-Officals are authorized to use deadly force only when it is reasonable and neccesary to protect other officers or people who are in imminent danger of death or serious physical injury. If nondeadly force appears to be sufficent to accomplish an arrest or acomplish the law enforcement purpose, deadly force is not necessary.

3. Non deadly force
-Officers are autherized to use agency approved nondeadly force techinques and agency issued equipment where reasonable and neccesary to resolve incidents: to protect themselves or another from physcial harm, to restrain or subdue, etc
-When authorized, officers should assess the incident to determine which nondeadly technique or weapon will best de-escalte the incident

4. Continuum of Force
-The order of methods to use(first to last):
-verbal commands, use of hands, chemical agents, baton or other impact weapon, canine, non lethal projectiles, lethal force.

I left out a lot to this....if you want to see the whole thing, try looking for the document "Principles for Promoting Police Intergrity, Janurary 2001". I'll see if I can find something on the civilian usage of force.

[Shiro7]

what I would do? say "WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING YOU JACKASS!?" now if im being threatened with a knife or something, then Id have to use some self defense right? I wouldnt really use a bokken.. I mean thats a higher risk of killing someone, id probably punch him or kick him down..uh but thats just me..

[kendonewbie]

Any lawyers out there, what will happen if it was case three ?? Is there chance that you will get charged with murder ??
Yes. The state might prosecute you, but you might be able to plea bargin for a lesser sentence/charge (saves time and money). Also, the rapist family/relavites may prosecute you if you kill/ seriously harm the rapist. The rapist can prosecute you if he lives. The worst charge you can get if you kill him would be second degree murder.
Types of murder:
1st degree-premeditated, deliberate, malicious, intentional killing of another person.
2nd- same as the first, but without premeditation
felony murder-killing while in the midst of commiting a felony

You might be charged with volentary manslaughter...I'm not sure. The definition of it isn't too clear..."Intentional killing of another person in the heat of passion". Not quite sure what "heat of passion" can be twisted and interprited as.

[Landorph]

Another Hurrican bigger than Katrina is hitting New Orleans... God Doesn't like America Full Stop.

Bush pissed off GOd by attacking Iraq using his name.

for thousands of years.. mighty empires were wiped to a downfall by natural disasters...

Sceientists say that the area of New Orleans is now entered a Hurrican zone path.. so for the next god knows how many years.. every hurrican will go pass New Orleans.........

freaky HUr.

[piggy]

I've always interpreted "heat of passion" meaning that the murderer was provoked by one thing or another whether it be at the time of the homicide or earlier.

[aquilonian]

It will feel bad to have done nothing. But in most countries, doing nothing may be the best option.

1) ditto

2) risk getting hurt.

Also risk getting charged by the police for assault & battery (up to 3-5 years in many jurisdictions), assault with deadly weapon (up to 15 years or more in many jurisdictions), and attempted murder (up to a life sentence) if the prosecutor in question wants to make an example out of you in order to gain publicity and get a judgeship quicker.

Even if you get sympathy from the jury/judge and gets off the charges, you would have still spent around 2 years in jail awaiting trial. Bail may sound easy, but could be *very* significant for the more serious charges.

Just because you are suppose to be the "hero" does not save you from prosecution. Law frowns upon vigilantes. Cops use to, and still shoot at batman.

There is also the matter of the civil complaint that the evildoer may lodge against you. He might very well clean you out with one of those.

3) Ditto.

If the guy dies you will get charged with murder, but it may get reduced to manslaughter, etc, if you play your cards right. You are still not getting out within the decade. Heck, you might even run into the guy's homies in prison, then it's on like donkey kong and you won't even have a bokken.

Good luck on getting bail as a murder suspect.

See above re: civil complaint. Funny enough, a dead person, in some jurisdictions, is worth less in court than a permanently disable person so you might get off a little easier.

4) VERY IMPORTANT: Don't forget to add legal fees of around USD$300-500 an hour on top of everything above if you want good legal advice. There is NO "no-win, no-fee" for criminal matters. :D

so then the best advise would be..... kill him, run away like a madman, until you get away, cause if you are caught you willl lose your freedom. so If any cops try to kill you, then kill them too cause they cant take you alive right?... can't imprison a dead guy...mmmmm kay will do. thank you lawyers! :)

[aquilonian]

Out here no one would dare do that cuse everybody would take the oportunity to beat the hell out of a thief let alone a rapist to blow out some steam, actually getting involved to stop a fight...etc is second nature here.
I remember one day a stupid thief tried his luck at a grocery store near a mosque while the people who just finished there friday prayer were getting out filled with righthous feelings, i'll let you imagine the end, it's always a team effort :D
In Montreal though there was some guy who beat down somebody with a hammer in a subway train while people stood still as if nothing was happening.
As Kanyil pointed out people in some countries have been rendered indifferent because the fact that you helped somebody doesn't automatically let you off the hook, but again if it's a team effort;)

A++ civilization is unatural, and its in these more "civilized" countries where these acts of cowardice take place the most. but as the poster above has shown, while most americans would consider his country 2nd or 3rd rate, and some of the most ignorant would call them savages. its appears they are more safe in their "barbaric" land. well what do ya know? I blame the ancient Romans.

[kanyil]

so then the best advise would be..... kill him, run away like a madman, until you get away, cause if you are caught you willl lose your freedom. so If any cops try to kill you, then kill them too cause they cant take you alive right?... can't imprison a dead guy...mmmmm kay will do. thank you lawyers! :)

NO! DON'T RUN FROM THE LAW!! YOU WILL ONLY LAND YOURSELF IN MORE TROUBLE!!!

Ha ha, that's why lawyer's are expensive...because "ordinary" people combine fairly simple ideas with outlandish ideas of their own, and sooner or later needs one of us to protect them from themselves. :D

I have given you no advice. Now that you know the law, you have the choice of (1) stepping in and try your luck with law enforcement and the courts (while your family and loved ones will be left to fend for themselves outside); or (2) do nothing and going on your merry way knowing that the law won't always protect you and doesn't usually require you do anything (you can always testify in court later when they catch the bas**rd).

[Paburo]

hey kanyil, in spain, once you reach the shodan level(black belt) on any martial art, to the eyes of the law your physical attacks (punches and kicks) equal attacking someone with a knife or a white arm.

does this apply to other countries?

it's frustrating, cause the charges that may fall upon you if you ever harm/kill anyone while playing vigilante or helping someone in danger are much worse than those who may be charged to a normal(mudansha) person....

[kendonewbie]

hey kanyil, in spain, once you reach the shodan level(black belt) on any martial art, to the eyes of the law your physical attacks (punches and kicks) equal attacking someone with a knife or a white arm.
does this apply to other countries?
it's frustrating, cause the charges that may fall upon you if you ever harm/kill anyone while playing vigilante or helping someone in danger are much worse than those who may be charged to a normal(mudansha) person....
This is the first time i've heard of such a law. I'm not sure if such a law exists in America, but I do know that any prosecuting attourny worth the $300+ fee will use it against you.

[kanyil]

Umm, good point. I've always hear about rumours of that sort, but have never seen any law that actually says that. But then again, a shoe can be deemed as a deadly weapon (i.e. so if you kick someone with a shoe on, it's assault with a deadly weapon, rather than simply assault/battery - which means much heavier sentences) under the laws of some states in the US, so there's no telling what could happen.

Maybe one of the other Kendo/lawyers can chip in on this point.

[rainmaker]

You think you can run away. But that is dead wrong my friend. We have deadly investigation frenchise called CSI(Crime Scene Investigation). They have one in every big city. Las Vegas, Miami, Navy and now in New York. I am sure they will frenchise to LA very soon... They will look every dirt of your crime scene, they will know what kind of bokken you used, they can find a drop of blood on your bokken and you will go to jail baby...



so then the best advise would be..... kill him, run away like a madman, until you get away, cause if you are caught you willl lose your freedom. so If any cops try to kill you, then kill them too cause they cant take you alive right?... can't imprison a dead guy...mmmmm kay will do. thank you lawyers! :)

[kendonewbie]

Running away from a crime scene is one of the worst things you can do(ex. getting in a car accident and driving away). Yes, there is a chance that you won't get caught, but if you do, you WILL be facing heavier charges than if you just stay put and wait for the cops to show up.

[Hai_hai]

Another Hurrican bigger than Katrina is hitting New Orleans... God Doesn't like America Full Stop.

Bush pissed off GOd by attacking Iraq using his name.

for thousands of years.. mighty empires were wiped to a downfall by natural disasters...

Sceientists say that the area of New Orleans is now entered a Hurrican zone path.. so for the next god knows how many years.. every hurrican will go pass New Orleans.........

freaky HUr.
Attention Scotland Yard, Landorph is an al-Qaeda supporter full stop.

[aquilonian]

You think you can run away. But that is dead wrong my friend. We have deadly investigation frenchise called CSI(Crime Scene Investigation). They have one in every big city. Las Vegas, Miami, Navy and now in New York. I am sure they will frenchise to LA very soon... They will look every dirt of your crime scene, they will know what kind of bokken you used, they can find a drop of blood on your bokken and you will go to jail baby...

ha ha ha ha ha! mr. kanyil, rainmaker, thank you for playing along with my post. but in case you cant read It says "the'll never take me alive!". ;)

NAw! just joking. in truth I am the type of guy who cant even think, in situations like this, my sight kinda "moves" about four inches back into my head (not litellal, thats just how it feels) and from there its like watching a movie I have no controll over. think this is good, well think again alot of times guys like this get involved when they shouldnt. or do stupid things like about 1 monthback some guy at a liquor store attacked an armed gunman with a katana ! hahahahaha. if that gunman would have been determined there would lhave been one more victim.

The smartest people I think are the ones that think okay Iam in danger.... and then they freeze. sometimes these people can think of the best way out of the situation, their brain actually is still working,not just instinct ,much more effective.

[hobbit]

You think you can run away. But that is dead wrong my friend. We have deadly investigation frenchise called CSI(Crime Scene Investigation). They have one in every big city. Las Vegas, Miami, Navy and now in New York. I am sure they will frenchise to LA very soon... They will look every dirt of your crime scene, they will know what kind of bokken you used, they can find a drop of blood on your bokken and you will go to jail baby...

I'd drop the bastard & walk away . . . I would put money on the fact that if he was arranged for a serious crime, the cops aren't going to look too hard for the person who saved the victim, CSI or not they've got better things to do than find one vigilante in a city of 1.5 million, wood burns, and you can always buy another bokken.

[Kenzan]

I would kill him....
....then wait two 1/2 years and revive him.

[Calimar]

What would you do if you were one of those passangers in the subway and have shinai or bokken with you ?

I pray I never have to take that decision :S

2) Give him a warning and starts beat him with bokken... Risk of getting hurt..

That's what I think would be best course of actions.

3) Hit his head with bokken until he pass out or die...

That's what I think I'd do.
Would I do it, for real? Dunno. I hope I never have to find out, and I hope if I do have to find out, it's gonna be option 2, above.

But I'd respect myself much more if I killed him, rather than do nothing, me thinks.

Any lawyers out there, what will happen if it was case three ?? Is there chance that you will get charged with murder ??

Dunno about the U.S. - in Italy, you will be charged with "excess of self-defense" (self-defense applies when you're trying to protect someone else from physical harm, as well, here) if he wasn't armed - and it can be worsened to murder if you kept hitting after the guy passed out, or ran after him to hit him again or stuff like that...

Yeah CSI... we don't have that in Italy ;) we've got RIS in Parma, but Parma is more renowned for the Ham...

[absenteekendoka]

I'd have to say I'd be in there and kick the crap outa the guy. I promote non violence, but hey we all have things that are under no circumstances something you can let happen. Then again, I'm 6'2 and about 240, can handle myself .......so I have some advantages over other good samaritans. Sick thing is things like that happen out there, and sometimes people really dont do anything.....which is unacceptable.

[Fonsz]

I would kill him....
....then wait two 1/2 years and revive him.
I think that a lot of didn't get your pun. Not me, I can see what you are doing here. And it scares me that I am getting it. Especially after you tried to dishevel the European Union. You will get punished for that. Don't know when, don't know how but justice will prevail.

[Kenzan]

I think that a lot of didn't get your pun. Not me, I can see what you are doing here.


There. You see? The Neiderlanders DO have a well deserved reputation.


Especially after you tried to dishevel the European Union.


That is a redundant statement.
:D

You will get punished for that. Don't know when, don't know how but justice will prevail.

Accordion music.

Haven't we all been punished enough?

:D

[Gideon]

Since when should potential consequences deter us from doing what is right?

[Anonymous]

I say beat him till he pees himself, and then plant a knife on him. I'm sure the person getting raped wouldn't mention it.

[Wesley Myers]

I think the fact that people are not sure what they would do to help another in a very serious situation like that (and I highly doubt anyone would actually rape another in front of others like that unless they were such a psychopath that they had no concern for what was going on around them or were so 'whacked out' they didn't care) shows how low, backwards and upside down our modernist "society" has sunk.

Even if we did not have a legal obligation to help another person in distress we certainly do have a moral obligation.

[ccheck5]

one thing to learn guys. wood doesn't pick up finger prints :) and stay away from cakes from super markets

[Kagerou]

I would kill him....
....then wait two 1/2 years and revive him.

I sees what you did.....

This situation actually happened numerous times in Japan last summer. This guy would drag girls into the train washrooms and rape them. People did nothing. I couldn't believe it.

Minimum I would pull him off the girl and get her somewhere safer. Probably throw him off at the next station and tell the station staff. Since there is no good samaritan law in Japan hitting him wouldn't be a good idea. I don't relish the idea of spending any amount of time in prison here.

[absenteekendoka]

I guess a good example of the essence of budo would be defending those that cannot defend themsleves regardless of the risk to yourself. But thats just me.

:)

[nonamehandle]

I would kill him....
....then wait two 1/2 years and revive him.

hehehe...it took me a while, but i finally got it...damm, hate to admit it, but you actually are funny sometimes :laugh:

[Calimar]

hehehe...it took me a while, but i finally got it...damm, hate to admit it, but you actually are funny sometimes :laugh:


Ehm... I'm a 'tard :confused: what's the funny thing? I assume it's not the "2 half year" thingy... :confused: help?

[absenteekendoka]

Ehm... I'm a 'tard :confused: what's the funny thing? I assume it's not the "2 half year" thingy... :confused: help?

I have seen the light. I never checked either. But I think its a 2.5 year old thread........was dead.....was resurrected.......geez feels like Easter. :)
Jeeebus? :)

[Calimar]

DOH.

Fell for it head first. Even gave a serious answer :p

[Fonsz]

I have seen the light. I never checked either. But I think its a 2.5 year old thread........was dead.....was resurrected.......geez feels like Easter. :)
Jeeebus? :)

To quote the bearded giant from the UK: "I love this place". (^_^)

[Kagerou]

To quote the bearded giant from the UK: "I love this place". (^_^)

It's funny...Kenzan's the Troll KW has accepted as it's own.


....maybe that's why he won't post a pic of himself.