Naginata - a girl thing?

[Jakob Ryngen]

In the recent thread somone teasingly said that naginata was only for girls. This makes me bring up the following thing;

At the last meeting for the Swedish Budo Federation a very high graded japanese sensei asked me what type of budo I represented. When I said Naginata he said "That's only for girls!" and turned his back on me. At first I got quite upset but then when I thought of it I considered myself lucky to represent another type of martial art than he did :)

Budo should be for everyone - girls included!

[emitbrownne]

I do not think that Naginata is just for girls... I am currently awaiting the delivery of my first Naginata... and I can assure you that I am the most masculine of men :p

I do not think any activity that revolves around a 6ft pole with a blade on the end could be considered "girly".

[Nagi David]

because people who still believe that Naginata is only for girl have a very narrow mind I think.

But Jakob, I think you had a good reaction. When a sensei tell you such thing, he still have to learn a lot.

I believe the reaction of a great sensei who believe that Naginata is only for girl should have been surprise... then, he should have ask you more question about it, to understand why he was wrong.

[Paburo]

Originally posted by emitbrownne
I do not think any activity that revolves around a 6ft pole with a blade on the end could be considered "girly".
that's sort of discriminatory... are you calling naginata girls tomboyish then? you better wish they don't read that if you want to stay in one piece :D

and jakob, i was just kidding before when i said naginata is only for girls. anyone can do anything if they please even if it looks out of place. a girl could be a construction worker, and a boy could be ballet instructor for 4 yr old girls.

i think though, we men get our hands on everything. it would be cool if there was an only-women martial art, no?(besides frying-pan-do, so commonly spread between housewives :D)

maybe this is why in japan naginata is almost exclusively for girls...

[James]

I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.

Weren't naginata traditionally used by women defending the village (against mounted soldiers) when the boys were out doing other types of honorable killing - and so naginata training was traditionally for women whereas men used yari and other such pole-arms on the battlefield.

[alexpollijr]

That's what elder kendo sensei from Japan told me James. They said it was like a last line on defense, a desperate effort. But I don't know if there were naginata regular infantry on the armies. Probably not.

Sensei has promised to bring on some 'old ladies' (his words) to fight Isshu matches with us. He too told me that mostly women practice modern naginata in Japan.

[Nagi David]

yes and no,
As far as I know, Naginata was used by Yamabushis originally.
And some famous warrior used it (like benkei).
But it is true that women used it traditionnaely to defend the familly when warrior were not home to protect them.
I think one of the main reason il that Naginata is more efficient against a sword as long as as it is bigger. Another reason is that Naginata require lots of technique but not many strenght.
http://koryu.com/images/guide/wwj03.jpg

[Neil Gendzwill]

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=fa.fhnvanv.1n5k88f%40ifi.uio.no&rnum=6

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=naginata+women+group:fa.iaido&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=fa.b4rdhlv.1gl41iv%40ifi.uio.no&rnum=4

[emitbrownne]

I thought the favoured weapon of Zen bhuddist monks during the edo period was the Naginata...

or was that just another of my crazy dreams?!?

[R A Sosnowski]

The association of women and Naginata in Japan is historical.

Prior to the founding of the Tokugawa Shogunate, Samurai were trained in multiple weapons: Tachi & Katana, Yumi, and Naginata among others. Several surviving Koryu teaching a composite set of weapons, like Kashima Shinryu and Katori Shinto Ryu, include both sword and Naginata.

During the relative peace-time of the Tokugawa era, multiple weapons training fell into disfavor as there was no longer a need for a standing army (Samurai, after all were the ruling military caste at this time). Although functioning more as administrators than soldiers, Samurai were expected to have a basic proficiency with their primary weapon.

As the Tachi gave way to the Katana, Samurai men trained in it as it was their badge of status. Samurai women, trained in the Naginata; it was their badge of status, so to speak - part of their dowry always included an exquisite functional Naginata.

In prior times these were the first weapons learned by men and women. In peace times, the training stopped here. (Most historical accounts tend to ignore the training of Samurai women.) So during the Tokugawa era, the training of Samurai men was primarily with the sword (actually the Daisho, the long and short sword pair), and women with the Naginata. THe tokugera Shogunate lasted for over two and a half centuries.

[Also the Sohei (warrior monks) used the Naginata. A rebellious lot, they were eventually defeated and disbanded, and their lands confiscated by the military government, the Bakufu.]

After power was restored to the emperor during the Meiji Restoration (1868), and the caste system outlawed, Martial practices were adopted for teaching large groups because many of the teachers knew only how to teach the Martial Arts, so to survive, they offered lessons to the public. Only a few teachers were successful as teachers. Others became laborers or constables (ever wonder why some of the strongest Kendo players in Japan come from Police Dept. teams?).

At the same time, a modern system of education was put into place. Martial Arts became part of the Physical Education curriculum. Kyudo (unisex), Kendo for males, Naginata for females, and Judo with separate practices for males and females were introduced for PE. Because of this, the Naginata was redesigned for use by females - it became thinner and lighter.

This scheme of things has been part of the Japanese culture for well over a century. Old Japanese instructors still maintain this mind-set; after all, it has been part of the culture for over three and a half centuries, and Japan has a culture laden with tradition.

Breaking the "gender barrier" began to occur in the last quarter of the 1900's. When these practice were exported to the rest of the world, especially after WWII, there was no cultural gender-bias in the new countries, and very few reasons for the instructors to maintain the old-fashioned gender biases. When the children of WWII GIs came of age in the late 1960's and 1970's, any gender-bias outside of Japan was usually ignored, and eventually disappeared.

HTH.

[mingshi]

Got my hands on an old "Illustrated Course: Naginata" small instruction book (published 1976). Noticed the following things:-

Use of models: Girls are the ones in the photos for the bogu section. Mature women are the ones in the Kata section.

Emphasis on "Naginata for girls" quotes (sorry for the bad translations):-

"Introduction... Important points you have to bear in mind:
From the perspective of a Female's Budo
1) A lot of aesthetic elements are included.
2) Adopting the female physique/ build.
3) Fitting the female mentality.

"Kowaki-no-Kamae
This Kamae is a display of the gentle character of women...

"Furikaeshi
The curving strikes will look very soft and graceful..."

Do you people still have these things in your instruction books?

I doubted this "Naginata for girls" trend is only because of the Budo/sports education development. You see, many major Koryu Naginata-jutsu Ryuha has female as their SOKE, eg. Tendo Ryu, Yoshin Ryu and Toda-ha Boku Ryu, etc. You gotta see them doing Koryu Embu in their Kimono!!! When you consider that this exists in such a patriarchal society, everything is just too weird...

[etherknot]

An interesting thread for sure. I'm sure the trend will eventually turn or even out.

And then someone will someday say it was one way or another but now we have an equal mix.

[Jakob Ryngen]

Originally posted by mingshi I doubted this "Naginata for girls" trend is only because of the Budo/sports education development. You see, many major Koryu Naginata-jutsu Ryuha has female as their SOKE, eg. Tendo Ryu, Yoshin Ryu and Toda-ha Boku Ryu, etc. You gotta see them doing Koryu Embu in their Kimono!!! When you consider that this exists in such a patriarchal society, everything is just too weird... [/B]
Yes, but should we have a problem with that? Should girls who do kendo have a problem with male sensei? Should we care what sexist ignorant people think about Naginata?

[Chusan]

Originally posted by Jakob Ryngen

Should we care what sexist ignorant people think about Naginata?

Well, I won`t go along with you when using the expression ´sexist`. This has to do with the spirit behind Naginata and Kendo. Since Kendo has to do with close-in combat, Naginata has a different distance. This is not just maai, this is also an inner feeling. You need more distance to practise Naginata than with practising Kendo. So too much Naginata has the tendency of spoiling you Kenjin-spirit.
Thus Kendo-Players might think of avoiding playing Naginata.

[mingshi]

Originally posted by Chusan
Thus Kendo-Players might think of avoiding playing Naginata.

WHAT?????

[R A Sosnowski]

Originally posted by Chusan

Well, I won`t go along with you when using the expression ´sexist`. This has to do with the spirit behind Naginata and Kendo. Since Kendo has to do with close-in combat, Naginata has a different distance. This is not just maai, this is also an inner feeling. You need more distance to practise Naginata than with practising Kendo. So too much Naginata has the tendency of spoiling you Kenjin-spirit.
Thus Kendo-Players might think of avoiding playing Naginata.

I disagree completely. Either way, the intent it to cut, and the difference is in the ma-ai. I know a number of people in the US who do both -- I did myself for a while.

If you want CQC, try Judo. :D

[Nagi David]

R A Sosnowski, I agree with you.
In fact alot of people are practising both in Europe.

what do you mean by spoiling you Kenjin-spirit ?

have a look to a naginata shiai, I'm shure you'll change your mind

[Jakob Ryngen]

Originally posted by Chusan


Well, I won`t go along with you when using the expression ´sexist`. This has to do with the spirit behind Naginata and Kendo. Since Kendo has to do with close-in combat, Naginata has a different distance. This is not just maai, this is also an inner feeling. You need more distance to practise Naginata than with practising Kendo. So too much Naginata has the tendency of spoiling you Kenjin-spirit.
Thus Kendo-Players might think of avoiding playing Naginata.
When budu-people turn their backs on me just because I practice an an art that also is trained by a lot of women they are sexist and ignorant.

But what do you mean exactly with your post? What has maai to do with sexism? If closer is better, why not avoid Kendo and practice Judo instead?

[Jakob Ryngen]

Originally posted by R A Sosnowski
If you want CQC, try Judo. :D ´

Arg! You said it before I did! ;)

[Chusan]

Hello!
What I was talking about:
the distance between the opponents while playing naginata is definitely somewhat longer than with kendo. So this might be influencing the maai-feeling of kendoists.
Anyway, a longer distance to the other player seems IMHO to be more significant to female than to male kendo/naginata-players.
No sexism, sorry if I did express myself incorrectly.
There is a Japanese saying:
a man who is hunting several rabbits will catch no rabbit at all...

[Jakob Ryngen]

Hm, remember that the length of the naginata was shortened after its removal from the battlefield. Men seem to have prefered a longer naginata while women generally used a shorter version.

[xvikingx]

"So too much Naginata has the tendency of spoiling you Kenjin-spirit."

hmmm... If you have actually put on bogu and done some keiko you would say that. At least not where I practice. In fact I found it to be more intense than kendo.
For girls, for boys... kind of imature don't you think? It is unfortunate that man said that. Just be thankful he is not your sensei.

[xvikingx]

"....wouldn't say that." is what I meant to say.

[titus]

Two quick observations.

First of all, any male who is so insecure about his masculinity that he wouldn't do naginata is a self-fuliflling prophecy. By not doing naginata he is proving how unmasculine he is.

Second of all, isn't a masculine trait to seek out women actively? And wouldn't men who join naginata BECAUSE it is mostly females be then the most masculine of men?

Just my thoughts.

[gill]

Originally posted by Chusan

the distance between the opponents while playing naginata is definitely somewhat longer than with kendo. So this might be influencing the maai-feeling of kendoists.


Surely the concept of maai is the understanding of distance, and the ability to adapt accordingly - in this case the practice of naginata would help - as it would stop the kendoka from getting in a rut, by introducing many more variables. (usually kendoka fight too close anyway)

The only problem I have found since starting naginata is getting my footwork correct - I still want to do Kendo - but with a Naginata! :eek:

As for the male / female thing, I found that guys are intimidated by the fact that my stick is bigger than theirs!!!! :wink:

G :D

[Chusan]

Originally posted by gill


usually kendoka fight too close anyway

G :D

Oh yes, that is definitely true. Interesting aspect.
Naginata to learn proper distance? Hmm, must think about that.
Or better: take my naginata once again and just try it :D

[xvikingx]

>Surely the concept of maai is the understanding of distance, and the ability to adapt accordingly - in this case the practice of naginata would help - as it would stop the kendoka from getting in a rut, by introducing many more variables. (usually kendoka fight too close anyway)<I completely agree.
I started naginata before kendo. Kendo ashi-sabaki is very easy compared to naginata. I picked it up in no time. And another thing from naginata is, that you really learn to go for your cut.

[mingshi]

Originally posted by Chusan
the distance between the opponents while playing naginata is definitely somewhat longer than with kendo. So this might be influencing the maai-feeling of kendoists.

What is "Maai-feeling"? Would you just feel your distance without knowing what kind of weapon you are using?

The reason why there is a concept of Maai, is for people to learn their own distance. Hence I don't see "getting too used to" a certain Kendo distance can be an argument.

This is the same for weapons of any length. Say, your maai-feeling would be much stronger if you practice a lot of Kendo Kata Kodachi #1-3, right?

:)

[PhilMcLaughlin]

Hey Gill

you may have a bigger stick your men is still in the same place !
(dare I say on the end of my shinai ;-)

of course by adding a second string you can quickly modify the naginata into a piscean recovery device ;0)

Phil..

[gill]

Originally posted by PhilMcLaughlin
Hey Gill

you may have a bigger stick your men is still in the same place !
(dare I say on the end of my shinai ;-)



Ha! In your dreams!

:D G

[xvikingx]

In the great words of Nelson Munzt.... HA-! HA-!

[IsahoNaginata]

"that's sort of discriminatory... are you calling naginata girls tomboyish then?"

Nothing wrong with being tomboyish. :)

"i think though, we men get our hands on everything."

I am somewhat inclined to agree. It is why I appreciate women's organizations devoted to martial arts studies so much. Even when it is unintended there can be a very uncomfortable atmosphere in many co-ed martial arts groups, largely because competition and sparring is often segregated (I think).

This is why I like kendo and naginata and all. At least at the schools around here the sparring is not divided by gender. It really does not matter what you were born or how you are built. You just fight. :)

[gsx1100s]

I have a video on Naginata produced in Japan. It discusses the history of the weapon as a Samurai one. It then details the evolution of the art slowly steering towards an art that is predominantely used by women ( in Japan).
To say it is a "Girls" thing is denying the history of the weapon. To see a weapon used by women as any less effective as one used by men is ridiculous.
It is denying the wielder of the weapon all their training and their belief system.It also shows a weakness in the person who said this , as they underestimate their opponent In short , to me it shows ignorance. All the better for the wielder of that Naginata when they face that individual :devious:

regards Michael

[Shogun97]

firstly: i don't think naginata isn't something for girls
secondly:where can you learn this thing?

[R A Sosnowski]

secondly:where can you learn this thing?

A somewhat current list of countries officially affiliated with the INF are located here: INF (http://www.naginata.org/inf/inf.html).

There may be other activity in your neck-of-the-woods. Get in touch with the established European Naginata organizations and see if they know of anyone.

Also try through the Kendo organizations - they may know of someone.

Gambatte.

[Phil]

(shogun 97 what's your e-mail adress???)

sorry everybody...

[Jakob Ryngen]

A somewhat current list of countries officially affiliated with the INF are located here: INF (http://www.naginata.org/inf/inf.html).
Its good to see that the INF page got updated. But what happened to Italy?

[R A Sosnowski]

Its good to see that the INF page got updated. But what happened to Italy?

I do not know; I'd say ask the webmaster, but I suspect he is in final preparation for this RENSHI exam in Japan early next month.

[Shogun97]

(shogun 97 what's your e-mail adress???)

sorry everybody...

have a look at my profile.............
.....................thinking of it:why? :surprise:
well...never mind: flix_link@hotmail.com

[Phil]

(cause when i clic on you e mail it said "this person dont want to be joined by e mail" :s)

sorry