Another religion

[louisvandalen]

After reading all these post about kendo and religion (dogmatic) I would really like to know:



I always wondered where such deep believe comes from. Is there anyone that "volunteered" into any religion after let's say 20years old whom had no prior religious background/roots? If yes what changed you from a non-believer into a true believer.



I can see why people that are brought up in churches or temples will believe. We are all born as naked apes and if you feed an ape bananas from a cardboard box it will probably think that the box is the place where bananas grow (I’m not trying to be offensive here). Put the ape in the jungle and it will spend the first days trying to find a box.



Now we take the ape from the jungle and put him in a room with a box. And again after a few days hanging around the ceiling he will probably manage to open the box and eat. Great stuff, solution provided. But here the box is something you can touch and so is the banana so by using its senses it can actually learn about existence. (The environment variable in modern psychology).



Where a God is concerned we have nothing to touch, to taste or to feel. So back to the question: why believe in it?



And why isn't the ape praying? They know love, pain, fear and even have the ability to use tools. Some apes like the bonobo have even more qualities (on which I won't comment since kids read these posts, but I’m jealous at the rate).



This will probably turn into a crap thread but anyway.



Is it fear that makes us religious? We are all standing in line waiting to move into the next phase (if any) so knowing that you'll go to another place is very comforting.



Is it to overcome a crap life? Knowing that things can only get better in the next phase is again a very neat feeling (which ultimately could make someone very lazy)?



Is it stupidity? Anything you can't or aren't willing to understand, blame God. He will know.



And more: imagine the world a long time ago. A very long time ago when man was so hairy that some gorillas made mistakes in early mornings (looking at some of my friends I'm quite sure this happened). In this environment the hairiest of them had to come up with some rules to prevent bad things from happening. Do each other no harm was probably one of the first rules (since pain and grief are sense able and can be explained without to many words). Sure, bloody tell me that when I'm being chased by a saber tooth, why can a beast like that hunt me (monkey logic) but why can't I hunt another man. Differentiation was added to the vocabulary (which is really a necessity in any religion). In the end just another justification I guess and the first step to supreme beings (e.g. man, God, me)?



Noises turned into words, words into sentences and now into sickening thick dictionaries (especially the French ones). And then, somewhere along the way God showed up (as a figure in a book written by man).



If we ditch Darwin and all actual prove of evolution there’s no discussion I guess but that’s the wall I always seem to run into when religion comes up. Dogma after dogma.



I would really love to have this deep believe that some of us have. That complete and utter feeling that in the end everything will be fine. It’s better then my version that in the end everything will be painted black.

[piggy]

the answer to god is easy. fear. more people can be controlled out of fear rather than love.

"Noises turned into words, words into sentences and now into sickening thick dictionaries (especially the French ones). And then, somewhere along the way God showed up (as a figure in a book written by man)."

if not by man, than by who? Darwin was a man wasnt he?

im tired so thats my crappy input.

[Berugijin]

Religious people consist of a few groups:



The Brainwashed. For example a child that grows up in a very religious family. The child will in turn brainwash his children too.
The Ignorant. For some people it's a very depressing thought that humans are just monkeys. You live, you reproduce, you die. Just like any other animal. The Ignorant can't accept this so they glorify their own existance by claiming they were made by an uber-being and are promised eternal bliss after death.
The Traumatized. I've seen it happen. A mother lost two of her children and now spends all her time reading biographies about 'saints'...
Then there's a small fourth group who think they're clever (I'm not argueing that). What do you 'lose' by being religious? Nothing. But you have everything to gain (eternal bliss blablabla).

Religion is nothing more than:

quack science ("intelligent design" anyone?), they attribute scientific phenomena to mystical beings...
therapy for those who can't consolidate with the fact that they are in fact monkeys. You could call it blissful ignorance.
Now I don't mind all of that. If going to church makes you feel better, go for it. But I really despise fundamentalists (especially christians):

They lobby to block stem cell research ("Christopher Reeve was meant to be paralyzed, to cure him would be against the will of the lord!")
They spread ignorance by coming up with crap like "intelligent design"...
They spread hatred against minority groups (homosexuals).
They abuse their followers' trust (and ignorance) for own personal gain.
They assimilate everything into their big obscure cloud of ignorance. The 'christian kendo' thread comes to mind.
They feel better than the "non-believer heathen dogs".
There is no difference between "religion", "cult" and "organized crime". All three use the same line:

"If you don't do X for us bad things will happen to you."

You either pay them money or you will burn in hell for all eternity.

[Berugijin]

the answer to god is easy. fear. more people can be controlled out of fear rather than love.

“We will strangle the last king,” cried the revolting peasants, “with the guts of the last priest.” [and then we will be free]

[piggy]

i have to agree with you about the stem cell research. if the lord wanted him to be paralyzed for a purpose, what purpose would he serve?!? he's a vegatable! he cant do anything! im sure he'd prefer to be a normal person.

you want to stop people from getting an abortion? lets go right now. i'll fight you for it.

[Berugijin]

you want to stop people from getting an abortion? lets go right now. i'll fight you for it.

Don't be silly. Women that are victims of rape should most definately not have the choice to abort. God intended it to be that way.

(I'm being cynical.)

[Wes Nazo]

Terry Schaivo:
The argument being made by these so called "right-to-life" people is: You can't take someone off life support, because only god can choose when they die. That would be playing god...but then again, wouldn't any medical intervention be consided "playing god?"

It's these religious hypocrites that make me dispise the US sometimes...

[Utotin]

Oh boy. Its the Secular Taliban again!!!

[Akai Bushi]

The thing about stem cells and abortion is that Christians believe every embreo is a human life. It's looked at as murder.

Does anyone know Scott Peterson? Killed his pregnant wife and was charged with a double murder. Well abortion is legal in California and he was the father. Maybe he just didn't want the baby. According to pro-choice it's just tissue until it's almost born. So really he should only be charge with one murder. Right?
Or if I beat on a pregnant womans stomach to force an abortion I should only be charged with assault not murder when she miscarries. Right?

Stem-cells will help alot of people, but research on Jews in WWII could help people survive as well. The problem is do you believe stem cells are human or just cells. Of course we are all just Monkeys so why does it matter if one of us kills the other its just nature. Two of the same species kill eachother all the time.

[Lloromannic]

First off :I am NOT religious but I think that perhaps it is a bit unconsiderate and erroneous to think religion=BADBADBAD and all religious people to be inferior. I think that their choice to believe is just as good as ours to not do so and perhaps it is a bit wrong to be as dogmatic in atheism as in religion; one group says "There IS a God" and the other says "There is NOT a God", I for one have neither the knowledge nor the arrogance to claim to know if either is right. I don't believe but I might as well be wrong (see you in hell then :D ).

People are generally not good OR evil, the (ex-)Pope for example, I disliked his stance on homosexuals, birth control and his treatment od the theology of liberation in Central and South America, on the other hand he along with Bono (another catholic) helped the Drop the Debt campaign enormously and right there did more for the poor than me and probably any of you have done or probably will do in our lifetime.

So in short: I don't know if there is a god, I think not but I am not sure, and stop with the fanaticism guys, you give us atheists a bad name.

[Berugijin]

The thing about stem cells and abortion is that Christians believe every embreo is a human life. It's looked at as murder.

This is about just as stupid as savouring every spermatazoid because it's 'a human life'.

Does anyone know Scott Peterson? Killed his pregnant wife and was charged with a double murder. Well abortion is legal in California and he was the father. Maybe he just didn't want the baby. According to pro-choice it's just tissue until it's almost born. So really he should only be charge with one murder. Right?

Wrong. According to pro-choice there is a window of opportunity where the embryo is not yet considered human life, i.e. sentient. I believe this is about 20 to 24 weeks (could be wrong on this). The real question is whether 'potential life' equals 'life'. Personally, I see no wrong aborting a 'bag of replicating cells' that is not sentient and can not feel pain.

Or if I beat on a pregnant womans stomach to force an abortion I should only be charged with assault not murder when she miscarries. Right?

If a woman wants the baby than you've just robbed her of her future child. Technically (perhaps even legally too) it's not murder. But your robbed that person of a choice and of a potential child that was wanted. It makes sense to pass a bill to specifically cover this case.

Stem-cells will help alot of people, but research on Jews in WWII could help people survive as well. The problem is do you believe stem cells are human or just cells. Of course we are all just Monkeys so why does it matter if one of us kills the other its just nature. Two of the same species kill eachother all the time.

Are you suggesting we destroy every 'end' that justified 'the means'. Would you tear down the piramides because they are a product of slavery? There is also a certain context to be associated with the jews. During WW2 in Germany it was socially acceptable to perform experiments on jews. There was nothing wrong with that in that time and in that culture. There was nothing wrong with slaves either.

I don't see your point really. It's just stupid to throw away valuable research, the bad has been done. Atleast they did not die for nothing. They were probably more useful to society than you will ever be (this is not intended to be ad hominem).

[GlideWalker]

Christians believe that every embryo is a human life - no we don't. That'll be the fundamentalists.





Wrong. According to pro-choice there is a window of opportunity where the embryo is not yet considered human life, i.e. sentient. I believe this is about 20 to 24 weeks (could be wrong on this). The real question is whether 'potential life' equals 'life'. Personally, I see no wrong aborting a 'bag of replicating cells' that is not sentient and can not feel pain.

Yep. I'll go with that.



If a woman wants the baby than you've just robbed her of her future child. Technically (perhaps even legally too) it's not murder. But your robbed that person of a choice and of a potential child that was wanted. It makes sense to pass a bill to specifically cover this case.

That's OK too.

Are you suggesting we destroy every 'end' that justified 'the means'. Would you tear down the piramides because they are a product of slavery? There is also a certain context to be associated with the jews. During WW2 in Germany it was socially acceptable to perform experiments on jews. There was nothing wrong with that in that time and in that culture. There was nothing wrong with slaves either.

Kind of yes... The trick is not to do the bad stuff in the first place. 'It was socially acceptable at the time' is no defence at all. Very, very difficult. Horrific fates awaited anyone who suggested it was not OK to persecute jews in Germany in the 30s and 40s, so who are we to judge. But this does not make it right. (Obviously). Whether or not we make use of the research - maybe. I think you are kind of drawing the conclusion that there is no moral relation between a stem cell and, say, a 23 year old jewish person? If so I think I could buy that also!

I don't see your point really. It's just stupid to throw away valuable research, the bad has been done. Atleast they did not die for nothing. They were probably more useful to society than you will ever be (this is not intended to be ad hominem).[/QUOTE]

Same difficulty with this passage. And that is most definitely ad hominem and you clearly meant it to be! But hey, we don't have to be philosophically rigorous in here. We can just fight if you want!

[drizzt]

Religious people consist of a few groups:





The Brainwashed. For example a child that grows up in a very religious family. The child will in turn brainwash his children too.
The Ignorant. For some people it's a very depressing thought that humans are just monkeys. You live, you reproduce, you die. Just like any other animal. The Ignorant can't accept this so they glorify their own existance by claiming they were made by an uber-being and are promised eternal bliss after death.
The Traumatized. I've seen it happen. A mother lost two of her children and now spends all her time reading biographies about 'saints'...
Then there's a small fourth group who think they're clever (I'm not argueing that). What do you 'lose' by being religious? Nothing. But you have everything to gain (eternal bliss blablabla).

Religion is nothing more than:

quack science ("intelligent design" anyone?), they attribute scientific phenomena to mystical beings...
therapy for those who can't consolidate with the fact that they are in fact monkeys. You could call it blissful ignorance.
Now I don't mind all of that. If going to church makes you feel better, go for it. But I really despise fundamentalists (especially christians):

They lobby to block stem cell research ("Christopher Reeve was meant to be paralyzed, to cure him would be against the will of the lord!")
They spread ignorance by coming up with crap like "intelligent design"...
They spread hatred against minority groups (homosexuals).
They abuse their followers' trust (and ignorance) for own personal gain.
They assimilate everything into their big obscure cloud of ignorance. The 'christian kendo' thread comes to mind.
They feel better than the "non-believer heathen dogs".
There is no difference between "religion", "cult" and "organized crime". All three use the same line:

"If you don't do X for us bad things will happen to you."

You either pay them money or you will burn in hell for all eternity.



now thats damned insulting. I take offense at being refered to as ignorant and a ""quack". I'm as well edjucated as you are, and i have very little doubt im as intelligent(im gonna toot my own horn for a minute here.........i have a very high IQ, and graduated from high school very close to the top of my class(and it was a clas of over 300)). You insinuate that all religious people are dogmatic morons, mired down by there beleifs(wich cant possibly be correct because YOU dont beleive them, therefore there wrong). Some of the greatest scientists in history have been highly religious men. Many early scientific minds were priests of the Catholic church.....




Do not insult my intelligence and my beleifs because they are not yours. It simply proves you are as ignorant as what you claim myself to be. I am not brainwashed(i did not start going to church until i was a teenager, and i do not follow half of what the church i go to preaches........i find my own truths in life, scientific or not), i am not ignorant, and i am not traumatized into beleiving. So what am I?

"



They lobby to block stem cell research ("Christopher Reeve was meant to be paralyzed, to cure him would be against the will of the lord!")
They spread ignorance by coming up with crap like "intelligent design"...
They spread hatred against minority groups (homosexuals).
They abuse their followers' trust (and ignorance) for own personal gain.
They assimilate everything into their big obscure cloud of ignorance. The 'christian kendo' thread comes to mind.
They feel better than the "non-believer heathen dogs". "
this is the biggest load of SH** i have ever seen in my life 80% or more of christians DONT beleive that.

Im gonna go before i say something that get me banned. I wish you no ill will or malice, but stop showing your assanine-ness towards religious people.....



Thanks and Gig'em

[GlideWalker]

So in short: I don't know if there is a god, I think not but I am not sure, and stop with the fanaticism guys, you give us atheists a bad name.[/QUOTE]

You're not an atheist, you're an agnostic. Technically, this is the only rational position to take. Atheism is actually a faith, or at least a belief, since it cannot be proved.

So you are actually the only person in this thread who is genuinely not religious.

[LNGUYEN]

Please, if you think because you are a nonbeliever, then you are better than us, the believer, and that make you have the right to insult us, then I tell you that you aren't worth a penny and nobody even want to pick up a penny on the sidewalk.

[Hank]

You're not an atheist, you're an agnostic. Technically, this is the only rational position to take. Atheism is actually a faith, or at least a belief, since it cannot be proved.

So you are actually the only person in this thread who is genuinely not religious.Umm...no. Atheism is a rational choice and is not a belief system. There is no faith in atheism - atheists do not "believe" there is no god. I'd have to give a lot of background of the scientific method and logic that is truly tedious, but you have to prove that something exists - you don't prove that something doesn't exist. You can prove that people proving that something does exist have the facts wrong, but you can't prove that something doesn't exist. That's not logical. If there is no proof that something exists, then, for all intents and purposes, it does not.

It would be like me saying that Elvis lives at the center of the earth. Now, there is no way to prove me wrong, but you know that Elvis doesn't live at the center of the earth. The only difference between this and organized religion is the number of people believing it.

Now, I realize that it may seem like I'm insulting people, but I really have no intention to insult. I think religion is very helpful for a lot of people - it even helps people in my own family. So, I really don't want to assert my views on anyone, and all I ask is that people not try to assert their views on me.

Hank.

[Berugijin]

now thats damned insulting. I take offense at being refered to as ignorant and a ""quack". I'm as well edjucated as you are, and i have very little doubt im as intelligent(im gonna toot my own horn for a minute here.........i have a very high IQ, and graduated from high school very close to the top of my class(and it was a clas of over 300)). You insinuate that all religious people are dogmatic morons, mired down by there beleifs(wich cant possibly be correct because YOU dont beleive them, therefore there wrong). Some of the greatest scientists in history have been highly religious men. Many early scientific minds were priests of the Catholic church.....

You think you're smart because you had good grades at high school? That's pretty ignorant. I won't even start about American public 'edumacation' [sic]. I should've added a little disclaimer to my post that this was not true for all religious people. I'm talking mainly about the fundamentalists. The ones that recently prevented an awesome movie about the science behind the universe to be shown in theaters because it might 'insult' the 'intelligent design' people.

Do not insult my intelligence and my beleifs because they are not yours. It simply proves you are as ignorant as what you claim myself to be. I am not brainwashed(i did not start going to church until i was a teenager, and i do not follow half of what the church i go to preaches........i find my own truths in life, scientific or not), i am not ignorant, and i am not traumatized into beleiving. So what am I?

You are illogical but mostly ignorant. But this is just my point of view please don't feel insulted by this. I just find it very strange that you base your personal beliefs on nothing substantial. Are you really so arrogant to believe that you're special and that your 'soul' will go to heaven? Is life that difficult for you that you need to hold on to the idea of some uberbeing that is looking after you? I'll take the friends I know and care for over an uberbeing any time. Atleast my friends will let me eat an apple from their tree.

this is the biggest load of SH** i have ever seen in my life 80% or more of christians DONT beleive that.

Is that a party trick of yours, pulling numbers out of your ass?

Im gonna go before i say something that get me banned. I wish you no ill will or malice, but stop showing your assanine-ness towards religious people.....

Likewise. Please don't feel insulted by my point of view.

[Berugijin]

Please, if you think because you are a nonbeliever, then you are better than us, the believer, and that make you have the right to insult us, then I tell you that you aren't worth a penny and nobody even want to pick up a penny on the sidewalk.

I wish it were just that. The religious folk actually stomp on us pennies. They try to prevent the scientific education of our children with crap like 'intelligent design'.

And actually, I do think that I'm better than those fundamentalists. I don't hate people because of sexual orientation. I very much believe that that makes me a better person at heart than them.

[Lloromannic]

You do realize that your posts contain the largest amounts of bigotry and dogmatism in this thread right? You claim to not hate anyone because of their sexual preferences (and I believe you) but you seem to have plenty hate towards those who choose to be religious.
You embody all the intolerance, agression and ignorance that fanatics are known for. You'll notice that you are the first and only person to attack others' beliefs. Are you so arrogant to think that you have the knowledge to claim that definitely there is no god? Certainty is more often a sign of ignorance than of knowledge.

Are you by any chance a Chinese teenager living in Canada?

[Berugijin]

You do realize that your posts contain the largest amounts of bigotry and dogmatism in this thread right? You claim to not hate anyone because of their sexual preferences (and I believe you) but you seem to have plenty hate towards those who choose to be religious.
You embody all the intolerance, agression and ignorance that fanatics are known for. You'll notice that you are the first and only person to attack others' beliefs. Are you so arrogant to think that you have the knowledge to claim that definitely there is no god? Certainty is more often a sign of ignorance than of knowledge.

Once more, I have nothing against religious people. I do have a lot against fundamentalists who try to drag everyone else into their ignorance and stupidity.

I double-dare you to prove that I am ignorant. I believe it's better to be intolerant and agressive than not take a stand at all. I will not stand idly on the side line watching how fundamentalists try to drag society back into a new Dark Age. Even if it means argueing with ignorant people on a bloody kendo forum. I can only try to convince people with rational arguments...

Please do try to prove me wrong. I'll change my point of view if there is a compelling reason to do so.

Are you by any chance a Chinese teenager living in Canada?

I resent that. I really do. You're a mean person.

[piggy]

has anyone on this thread witness a fundalmentalist attack berugijin?
i have not.
so why does he argue?
if it is true that he has nothing against religious people, than why is he attacking everyone who challanges him? such behavior links him to the very people that he despises.


but in a way, i also respect him. he decided to take a stand (as radical as it may be) for what he beleives in.

in this thread, none of us are wrong and yet none of us are right. respect that when you challange others. so in this post, i will say nothing as to what i believe. i just want the ground to be level between you all. try walking in someone elses shoes. and to quote depeche mode, you'd probably stumble in thier footsteps.


thats just my two maybe three cents...

[drizzt]

You think you're smart because you had good grades at high school? That's pretty ignorant. I won't even start about American public 'edumacation' [sic]. I should've added a little disclaimer to my post that this was not true for all religious people. I'm talking mainly about the fundamentalists. The ones that recently prevented an awesome movie about the science behind the universe to be shown in theaters because it might 'insult' the 'intelligent design' people.

No, but i think getting good grades at one of the top rated university's in the country qualify's me as a fairly intelligent individual. What about the atheist groups who refuse to let christians prey in public because they dont beleive its right?

You are illogical but mostly ignorant. But this is just my point of view please don't feel insulted by this. I just find it very strange that you base your personal beliefs on nothing substantial. Are you really so arrogant to believe that you're special and that your 'soul' will go to heaven? Is life that difficult for you that you need to hold, you attack on to the idea of some uberbeing that is looking after you? I'll take the friends I know and care for over an uberbeing any time. Atleast my friends will let me eat an apple from their tree.

The sentiments are returned. i feel your not only illogical, but mostly arrogant. your so convinced of the infalibility of science, that nothing else could possibly be realistic. I do base my beleifs on something, but you choose to ignore the idea that anything of a religious nature is true. if documentation was written in a religious context, it MUST be false. Ignorance is a point of view. I think you are the ignorant party here becasue you have shut yourself off to the possibility of a higher being. And no im not special. I hope that i will go to heaven, but i do not beleive i am better than anyone else.




Is that a party trick of yours, pulling numbers out of your ass?

Im not shure, is sticking your head up your ass yours?


Likewise. Please don't feel insulted by my point of view.




im sorry you disagree with me, but pull your head out of the mud and look at the possibility you are not always right, simply because you think you are. i agree that i may not be in the right, but at least im open to the possibility

[drizzt]

I double-dare you to prove that I am ignorant. I believe it's better to be intolerant and agressive than not take a stand at all. I will not stand idly on the side line watching how fundamentalists try to drag society back into a new Dark Age. Even if it means argueing with ignorant people on a bloody kendo forum. I can only try to convince people with rational arguments...





As you put it, i double-dare youtot prove without a doubt there is no god. prove that to me and i will concede.

Please dont take the typical atheist point of " well i dont have to prove that, you have to prove to me there is one". YOU are telling us you are right, so please , prove you are beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[Anjin-san]

I'm not saying this is infallable, but its at least as strong as any argument FOR the existance of God.

GCSE RE classes did it for me.

God is defined as an

i) omnipotent(all-powerful),
ii)omniscient(all-knowing),
iii)omnibenevelont(all-loving)

entity. God by definition should be all of these three things, and if he is not one of them then he is not God as defined by most holy scriptures.

Pain is inflicted on human beings. People who don't deserve it feel a lot of pain in the world, for example civilian casualties in conflicts. Victims of violent crime etc etc.

You could argue that this is man and free will, but then you have natural disasters where innocent people die too.

This indicates to me that one of the following must be true.

a)God is not all-loving, he's letting bad things happen to good people.

OR

b)God is not all-powerful, he loves everyone but doesn't have the muscle to do anything about injustices on Earth

OR

c)God is not all knowing, he would do something about bad stuff that happens on Earth, but doesn't because he doesn't know about it.

And if one of these is true, then it violates the God identity outlined at the beginning and therefore there is no God.

Another God problem I liked was 'If god is exists and is all-powerful, then could he create a task that was so difficult that even he couldn't do it? If he could create such a task, he is unable to do the task and is therefore not all-powerful. If on the other hand he is unable to create such a task, once again we've found something he can't do and therefore he is not all-powerful. But the wording is funny and I'm sure theres some kind of circular logic going on.

[drizzt]

I'm not saying this is infallable, but its at least as strong as any argument FOR the existance of God.

But the wording is funny and I'm sure theres some kind of circular logic going on.

you win. you hit the jackpot. I give you an E-cookie. LOL

thats the whole point. i have as strong of argument for as against. i respect everyones right to choose what they beleive, but not to attack my beleifs because they dont agree with them.

and your right that all was circular logic.....

I might be wrong, but i dont beleive it. if you DO beleive its wrong, dont attack me for beleiving something. I have to add to all this, I do not condone fundamentalists who push there beleifs on other from EITHER side, atheist or religion!

[NorthernKendoka]

Isn't it just as bad being a technocrat as being a religous fundamentalist. My point is it's not the belief but the extent of belief that makes the differnece. In my oppinion extremism is bad no matter what cause it is serving.

[Charuzu]

'ello (=^o^=)
Quite the hot topic.... let's be a bit more open shall we?

First let me give you my religious info and my opions.

My religion and beleafs: I was raised as a episcopal christian. The people at our curch were very open an kind. They never spoke out on politics, I still ask Father Tim for advice. However, I felt nothing in christanity and latter moved to shinto and zen where I (not so) commonly talt to Rev. Barrish at the Tsubaki Jinja. My mother is very christain still, my dad used to be but he has become egnostic and my sister is a practioner of wicca. My sister is also gay and I am close friends to her girlfriend (she loves kenjutsu too ^o^)

My oppions on religions:

Christanity - It was spoild cuz it was adoped early and buccherd in the middle-ages. Under the hate that has been added throughout the times lies a great religion. While I disagree with some things in all I think that It is a good religion as long as it isn't taken to extremes. Would put up moer info but simce most are christan just ask one for info. (Me so sleepy!)

Jewdiasm - Not enough info for me to give a well informed opionin.

Islam - Another religion that was ruind in the middle-ages.... but by the then extrime christans! They were VERY open untill the end of the golden age showing religous tolerance, a thirst for knowlege and fair laws. However, In the middle east fundimentalism has become rampant. BUT, in the rest of the world it has stayed true and it is currently the 2nd mosy popular religion and will most likely be #1. May I reccomend 30 days?

Wicca - A VERY peaceful religion, many times mis-understod. Has no real corruption... probaly becuse it has a small worldwide following. It is also intristing becuse it is both Polythistic and Theistic

Neo-paigan - My sisters girlfriend is neo-paigan. They seem OK. However, I still don't know much about them.

Shinto and buddism - My opion would be too oppionated to be a good source of info.

PS - may I recommend www.religioustolerance.org

PPS - Please forgive me for any mistakes but it is 3:12 AM and I am realyl sleepy

[Charuzu]

Also as a side note before I go sleepyr.... Shavo's brain was 1/2 od what it should of been... no revovery would of been possabel. She war a veggie. However, I think that they should of gave her something quicker like a leathel injection.

Also... ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz -_-

[drizzt]

Also as a side note before I go sleepyr.... Shavo's brain was 1/2 od what it should of been... no revovery would of been possabel. She war a veggie. However, I think that they should of gave her something quicker like a leathel injection.

Also... ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz -_-

it would have been nice to have seen something quicker. i mena cummon, we can uthenise a dog with a shot, but we let a human(all there or not) starve? it was just kind of a disgusting thought.....

[Charuzu]

it would have been nice to have seen something quicker. i mena cummon, we can uthenise a dog with a shot, but we let a human(all there or not) starve? it was just kind of a disgusting thought.....
Just my point.

But, Grrrrrrrrr..... I just cant fall asleep >o<

[God]

Whatever you may say... remember...

I believe in you...! ...and sometimes I move in mysterious ways, My wonders to perform...

[louisvandalen]

I am still hoping for someone religious to react and tell us more on why he does believe and where he thinks this believe comes from. I guess my first post made it pretty clear that I as most others that reacted don't share this deep feeling. I thought about it for years and looked for it also (in a sense) but was never able to convince myself. The logical examples given on why not to are all to clear, for the non-believers as well as for the real believers.

Neither am I trying to address current issue's like abortion or other (to my opinion) political decisions. On all of these, the majority decides and the minority has to follow. Democracy, nothing to argue about. (Other posts went into that deeeeeeeeeply already)

I met some people (very few) that in fact where (very active?) believers. Somehow there was something with them, very hard to explain but it was like they seemed to radiate (something peacefull and nice). Some famous people in history also had that "shine" like Ghandi or the Dalai Lama and Elvis ofcourse :). In them cases you could say it's the fame and people look at them differently because of their status but it's also in others arround you that are on the same "level". In all these cases these people had 1 thing in common, they where religous. For the rest I couldn't find any similarities between them. Or is it just me that notices that and should I be burned as a witch? :) In the last case never mind but otherwise how can a deep believe (which for the non believers is an inside activity and therefore can not be seen at the outside, can I be boring or what?) be seen by the eye (or be felt somehow)?

Is this why many of the saints and spirits wear halo's in our drawings?

I'm off to the stake. Someone has a lighter?

Peace!

[Berugijin]

has anyone on this thread witness a fundalmentalist attack berugijin?
i have not.
so why does he argue?
if it is true that he has nothing against religious people, than why is he attacking everyone who challanges him? such behavior links him to the very people that he despises.


Now I know why everyone calls me the extremist... Why do I argue? Because we're having a discussion, the whole point is to argue!

It's only logical to attack people who challenge you in a discussion, that's the whole point of it. You haven't participated in a lot of debates, have you? Let me sum it up for you: you listen to eachother, and then you challenge their reasoning to show them the flaws in their thinking.

But yeah I'm such an extremist/fundamentalist because I dare to argue... In my most humble opinion, everyone who feels personally attacked just because I questioned their reasoning needs to grow up.

[Berugijin]

No, but i think getting good grades at one of the top rated university's in the country qualify's me as a fairly intelligent individual. What about the atheist groups who refuse to let christians prey in public because they dont beleive its right?

Yet your spelling and grammar contradicts your claim of intelligence. I haven't heard of those atheists and your statement is quite vague but it doesn't surprise me at all. Why would the atheists be without extremists? Tolerance is the keyword.


The sentiments are returned. i feel your not only illogical, but mostly arrogant. your so convinced of the infalibility of science, that nothing else could possibly be realistic. I do base my beleifs on something, but you choose to ignore the idea that anything of a religious nature is true. if documentation was written in a religious context, it MUST be false. Ignorance is a point of view. I think you are the ignorant party here becasue you have shut yourself off to the possibility of a higher being. And no im not special. I hope that i will go to heaven, but i do not beleive i am better than anyone else.

I have certainly not shut myself off to the possibility. I'll be the first to read a research paper on the existance of a supreme being. Science is not infallible because it's still being done by humans, but it's the best thing we've got.

Im not shure, is sticking your head up your ass yours?

Thank you for confirming my suspicions that education in the United States is worth nothing. You come up with a ridiculous number ("80%") without stating any sources whatsoever. When I point this out to you, all I get is an ad hominem attack.

im sorry you disagree with me, but pull your head out of the mud and look at the possibility you are not always right, simply because you think you are. i agree that i may not be in the right, but at least im open to the possibility

Ofcourse I think I'm right, I'm trying to convince other people that I'm right but all I see is personal attacks and little sensible arguements. Do you know why? Because religion is based on blind faith.

They have no rational arguements!

[Anjin-san]

and your right that all was circular logic.....

Now you're just picking a fight. My paragraphing made it obviously clear that I was just talking about the last part when I said it was circular logic. When referring to circular logic I mean the actual critical thinking definition of circular logic, not some pop-culture bullshit word like 'homophobia'.

[Akai Bushi]

Yet your spelling and grammar contradicts your claim of intelligence. I haven't heard of those atheists and your statement is quite vague but it doesn't surprise me at all. Why would the atheists be without extremists? Tolerance is the keyword.



I have certainly not shut myself off to the possibility. I'll be the first to read a research paper on the existance of a supreme being. Science is not infallible because it's still being done by humans, but it's the best thing we've got.



Thank you for confirming my suspicions that education in the United States is worth nothing. You come up with a ridiculous number ("80%") without stating any sources whatsoever. When I point this out to you, all I get is an ad hominem attack.



Ofcourse I think I'm right, I'm trying to convince other people that I'm right but all I see is personal attacks and little sensible arguements. Do you know why? Because religion is based on blind faith.

They have no rational arguements!
There are alot of Ad Hominem fallacies coming from both sides here.
Just cause drizzt can't spell doesn't mean anything about his intellgence in discussing this matter.

[drizzt]

Now you're just picking a fight. My paragraphing made it obviously clear that I was just talking about the last part when I said it was circular logic. When referring to circular logic I mean the actual critical thinking definition of circular logic, not some pop-culture bullshit word like 'homophobia'.

i was a joke man nothing more.

[Berugijin]

There are alot of Ad Hominem fallacies coming from both sides here.
Just cause drizzt can't spell doesn't mean anything about his intellgence in discussing this matter.

Actually it does say a lot about his intelligence. Considering he is an American he should be able to write in decent English. Considering he went to university it means he should be able to clearly state his opinions and thoughts in proper English but the proper use of paragraphs seems too hard for everyone here.

I too am guilty of spelling errors ("arguement") but English is not my first language, it's my third out of five.

Most people seem to be unable to have a proper discussion here, thought-wise and language-wise. Atleast do the effort to capitalize your I's. A little hint: people will take you more serious if you make the effort to write in proper English. Don't spell like a twelve year old kid that just got AOL. If you write like one, people will treat you (and your ideas and beliefs) as one.

[drizzt]

Berugijin, let me put it poiont blank. You are not a proffesor, I am not receiving a grade for what i write here, and point blank, i dont care to try to be pompous enough to spell perfectly here. If it was necessary, i would , but it is not. if the few spelling and grammatical errors i make in my posts on a ridiculous internet forum are how you judge intelligence, im sorry you have such a narrow view of the world.

I made a rude comment because of the smart ass nature of you retort. had you simply asked for a source of the number, i would have wuite happily replied that it was a simple guess based on my personal expereince within the christian community, not an exacting figure.

My issue with you is not that you debate my beleifs with your own (infact its highly enjoyable), i do not, however, appreciate the condescending nature of your posts.



Someone above asked when a religious person would step up and explain why they beleive. Ill venture a basic reasoning using only evidence i can show you. I beleive that stories and traditions passed down by , originaly, the jewish church, and then later the christian church. i beleive that the ancient texts wich compose the cannonised bible, along with the miriad of other biblical texts, are not exagerations or simply made up. I beleive i have been shown as much if not more evidence that they are in fact real, as i have been shown they are false. In short, I have seen very little physical evidence that disproves the existence of God, as described in the bible(and yes i know there are problems with time lines......... i beleive we can thank changes men have made in the recent past to that....i do not see that it compromises the entire document.), form any archeological(SP?) or scientific standpoint. I am sorry that you disagree with that, but you asked why.

[drizzt]

Actually it does say a lot about his intelligence. Considering he is an American he should be able to write in decent English. Considering he went to university it means he should be able to clearly state his opinions and thoughts in proper English but the proper use of paragraphs seems too hard for everyone here.

I too am guilty of spelling errors ("arguement") but English is not my first language, it's my third out of five.

Most people seem to be unable to have a proper discussion here, thought-wise and language-wise. Atleast do the effort to capitalize your I's. A little hint: people will take you more serious if you make the effort to write in proper English. Don't spell like a twelve year old kid that just got AOL. If you write like one, people will treat you (and your ideas and beliefs) as one.


Im glad you have that much time in your life to waste. I have no desire to sit in front of a computer and try to impress someone. As far as im concerned, spelling on message board is fine if its understandable. I dont feel my need to prove myself to you over the internet.


Heres a littl hint: people will take you more seriously and be much less hostile if you dont act like a pompous ass. Being condescending to someone is a shure way NOT to get them on your side.

[Anjin-san]

I'm just miffed that you backed down so easy... at least come back with something with some semblance of concrete, like the original cause or the design argument. Then we can have a debate rather than a whining session about how everyone is so intolerant and how you don't care what other people beleive and how you hate it that people push their beleifs down your throat. That seems to be what this thread is about.

Great. Now that you're done whining and complaining about intolerant people lets have an actual debate. I don't care how you spell, as long as I can comprehend what it is you're trying to say. I don't know you from any of the other disembodied sources of text here, so I have nothing to like/dislike you for. I have no emotional stake here, so say what you want.

Through this, actually exchanging points of view and experiencing each others beleif structure, we can actually learn from each other.

[Kaoru]

Terry Schaivo:
The argument being made by these so called "right-to-life" people is: You can't take someone off life support, because only god can choose when they die. That would be playing god...but then again, wouldn't any medical intervention be consided "playing god?"

It's these religious hypocrites that make me dispise the US sometimes...

No, no. That's not what you say. People all over the world can be religious hypocrites. It has nothing to do with the US.

Keeping a person on life support when it is obvious the person is not going to have a life beyond breathing is playing God, IMHO. If she had no cognisant abilities, then let the poor thing go.

Kaoru

[Fonsz]

Well, well, well.
Hullo, hullo, what have we here then? A religious conflict.
First of all let me say that I'm on the side of Anjin-San and the man from Belgium. I also notice in the poll that the doubtful persons are the majority. It is really hard,... nay impossible for someone who has seen the light or has been raised religiously to move a little bit to the doubtful side. They are right 'cos they have seen the light. I can still recall the TV preacher crying because he was a fraud and cheated on his wife and a lot of other nasty things.

It is so funny that charlatans like him and others (Zatoichi Ryu!) can prosper in the US. We have our share of loonies here in Europa and Lord knows how many there are in Holland alone. But it always seems that in the US they are more in your face or they get much air play. The Terry Schiavo disgrace showed the religious folk from their darkest side. Even now when it is over they are complaining about the text on her grave.

It is things like this and the staunchnes of the religious Forumites that makes it all a bit strange for us moderate folk. Then we had the one who said he wasn't trying to spread the word but you could PM him if you wanted to walk the straight and narrow. When you point out that there are other religions, he tells you that he won't go into that and Evolution is a lie. A debate is when you can learn from each others viewpoints but when people are holier than thou then it's no use to have a debate. I think we'd be better of to philosophize(?Sp) about stepping or sliding in Kata, instead of arguing about religion or the absence thereof. Or we can wait until a Thunderbolt will strike the computers of the non-believers and have this settled once and for all.

The lord sure moves in mysterious ways. So please go and sin no more....

[Anjin-san]

I never said that I didn't beleive in God or something like him. I just highlighted reasons for me not to.

It is really hard,... nay impossible for someone who has seen the light or has been raised religiously to move a little bit to the doubtful side.

Gotta disagree with you there. I was raised extremely strict muslim. I've done Umrah at least 15 times and Hajj. Thats about as muslim as it gets.

An interest in critical thinking, sociology, history and philosophical techniques has given me the ability to put religious beliefs into context.

I think Kendo provides good metaphors for this. With your beliefs I find it best to learn from people with different views. Thats why talking about this stuff is good if you check your ego at the door. Allowing someone else to blow holes in your beleifs lets you improve them, just like doing jigeiko shows you your weaknesses in kendo.

IMHO, Its also best not to stray too far into the realm of subjectiveness. Issues such as abortion, life-support machines and polygamy are the by-product of some applications of religion, however don't actually get to the core of the discussion here, the existance of God.

I'm still waiting on drizzt for some pro-God arguments. Basically what I'm looking for is something that has logically sound premises that lead intelligently to a conclusion or at least an attempt at such a thing. This is not like 'Attack me if you dare, I will crush you'. I would be genuinely impressed if in your study of theology got me something that made me go 'wham, thats it, God does exist then'.

When you're ready...

[God]

45 + posts... so much emotion... and still they turn their backs on me...

Y'know sometimes you feel like giving it all up... you kind of lose all faith in yourself...

[drizzt]

who wants to take bets on who god's alter ego is(man that sounds bad LOL.......)?

[drizzt]

I'm still waiting on drizzt for some pro-God arguments. Basically what I'm looking for is something that has logically sound premises that lead intelligently to a conclusion or at least an attempt at such a thing. This is not like 'Attack me if you dare, I will crush you'. I would be genuinely impressed if in your study of theology got me something that made me go 'wham, thats it, God does exist then'.

When you're ready...

Im waiting on proof that "wham god doesnt exist". I cant prove to you conclusivley there is a god. You cant prove to me conclusivley there is no God. I beleive we are at a stalemate. What else do you want me to say or do? Religion is a leap of faith. A beleif that the stoies and traditions that have been passed down for generations are real, that what we call the bible is not fictional, that its not a fantastical whim. there s no concrete proof that a supreme being did not part the waters of the red sea to allow the hebrew nation to pass. There is proof the hebrews were held captive in egypt and then freed. maybe god did part the waters, or maybe they passed on the littl land bridge that cuts across one corner. i happen to beleive in the former rather than the latter.

I have seen and experienced things in my life i dont beleive science has an explenation for. I saw a man literaly a half hour from being unplugged take a breath on his own for no reason......the same man sells tomatoes from his home garden and plays a tuba in our local comunity band now. the doctors have no explenation why he recovered. Maybe it was chance, fate,luck, maybe it was a miracle. I cant prove my beleif to you, just as you cant disprove it. it may see illogical to you, but in my own mind(wich contradictory to the insinuations, im not "ignorant") I find the truth to be what i beleive.


Know on that note. I do not beleive God interferes often in our lives, if at all. I beleive we were put on earth with a brain to do with as we will. I am a long way from a fundamentalist, if anything im a bit of an outsider in my own church.

I hope its an explenation of what and why. please poke fun at it and insult my intelligence again, i find it humorous(i wasnt reffering to you anjin-san).

I have to interject this comment because its funny. I asked were was the proof God did not exist, but as usual was simply challenged to prove he did exist...... Why is that the generic response?

[Anjin-san]

I cant prove to you conclusivley there is a god. You cant prove to me conclusivley there is no God

You could at least try.

[Kaoru]

I never said that I didn't beleive in God or something like him. I just highlighted reasons for me not to.


Gotta disagree with you there. I was raised extremely strict muslim. I've done Umrah at least 15 times and Hajj. Thats about as muslim as it gets.



Hi Anjin-san,

What is Umrah and Hajj please? Thank you.

Kaoru

[Charuzu]

Anjin-san by any chance fid you see the latest epsode of "30 Days"??
It was really intresting, they sent a uber-christan guy to live with Muslems for 30 days. In the end he becomes a much better person. Also, we (The people watching the warm glow of the TV) see how much in-tolerence they have to put up with.

PS - Everyone, please dont be so mean to each-other. Just try to take it down a notch. However, I am proud of how everyone is doing.... whenever this comes up on other fourms it's 10x worse.

[Charuzu]

Also Kaoru-san, I know I'm not Anjin-san but if I'm correct Umras is a short pilgrimage to Makkah by muslems that can be made anytime of the year and a hajj is the one where they go to mecca.

[Anjin-san]

Hajj is the yearly pilgrimage to Mecca/Medina. Lasting a week, you go through a set of rituals that have been the same for a very long time. As a muslim you're supposed to do it once in your life. It involves lots of wierd and wonderful things including not wearing stitched clothing for a week, and ridding your mind of any negative/perverse/otherwise unholy thoughts. Millions do it every year.

Surprisingly it was during Hajj when I was about 11/12 years old that I started to question my beliefs.

Umrah is one of the things you do in Hajj, however it can be done outside of Hajj too (Hajj is over a set week every year on the islamic calendar, puts us currently in the 1400's somewhere). It basically involves a lot of praying, and a lot of walking around this (http://www.unf.edu/classes/byzantium/image/makkah.jpg). It takes about a full day to do, but again, going all the way to Saudi Arabia.

To drizzt, fair does. What I've come to realise is that when all is said and done, I win. You must defeat sheng long to stand a chance. Bozo.

[GlideWalker]

Oh dear.... bit of a can of worms then!


I'm grateful to Hank for pointing out my schoolboy logic error.

Anjin, your views are obviously very sincere, having been round the block a couple of times as a muslim. May I take you up on a few points?

Though I am always tempted by the prospect of a good argument, I've never been too impressed with objections to the existence of God based on logic. Partly because intellectually, religion is a rejection of logic anyway - this is what makes it powerful, attractive.... and dangerous. ('If you don't have a conscience, the scriptures can be used to justify just about anything'.) But also, even if we permit logical arguments it all gets rather messy and inconclusive and generally people just go with their gut feelings. For instance your GCSE example misses out the description of god as infinite mind. On this view puny human logic simply doesn't apply to god. A human mind can never fully comprehend god, so poncing about with logic to prove it one way or the other is kind of like a dog trying to beat a human at chess. Concepts like 'Knight to king's bishop 3' are just not part of the canine universe. This is called cognitive closure. (forgive me if you are already familiar with it and I am teaching you to suck eggs) For the same reason, it is difficult to claim that god doesn't exist otherwise how do we explain suffering? We just can't. God or no god. (Many philosophers
have attempted to tackle the 'problem of evil'. E.g. Nietzche ties it up with darwinism and gives it survival value) Without God, suffering has no meaning and this makes it easier to deal with for non-believers. With god, suffering has meaning, but we don't get to know what that meaning is in a lot of cases. The not knowing is compensated for by the fact that at least god knows why it happened and it probably wasn't for nothing - no matter how horrific. This makes it easier to deal with for believers.

Do you see what I am driving at?

You are welcome to continue the logical argument if you want. But ultimately, I think it just comes down to the way we are wired. I am more comfortable with the world/universe/existence if I feel I can give it a name and have conversations with it. Perhaps (hesitantly, because I cannot know your mind) you are more comfortable with a non-religious world view because you like logical, rational explanations for things. Such an outlook entitles you to deal with difficult things like suffering by using statements like 'Really bad things happen to the nicest people, for no reason whatsoever'.

Despite this harping on about suffering I am certain that, in general, the garden is beautiful to both of us. It doesn't hurt anyone if I insist there are fairies at the bottom of it. I will certainly not be burning anyone for taking an alternative view. And I trust you would join me on the barricades should the biggots and fundamentatlists threaten to overrun the garden? This may not be a flippant suggestion, the way things are going in some parts of the world.....

[Hank]

Im waiting on proof that "wham god doesnt exist". I cant prove to you conclusivley there is a god. You cant prove to me conclusivley there is no God. I beleive we are at a stalemate. No, not a stalemate. I don't think your pieces have even moved. Anjin-san put up some pretty good logic refuting what some consider truths that prove god does exist. I didn't see a rebuttal.
I have to interject this comment because its funny. I asked were was the proof God did not exist, but as usual was simply challenged to prove he did exist...... Why is that the generic response?Because the burden of proof is on the one who claims something exists. Because if there is no proof that it does exist, it doesn't. This is the way that proving something exists works. Check out my earlier post in this thread.

Oh, and correct spelling and grammar are used not to impress people, but out of respect to the reader. Reading just doesn't go quickly when you're mentally straightening out someone's writing. Just a thought.

Hank.

[God]

Hmmmm...

Some interesting thoughts in this thread... I am so glad that I gave you all free will...!

If you try to explain Me or disprove My existence through logic then you really don't understand Me...

Using pure logic, can you prove that you exist...? I doubt it very much...!

[crabbi]

Drizzt.... are you God?

[Anjin-san]

Though I am always tempted by the prospect of a good argument, I've never been too impressed with objections to the existence of God based on logic.

I understand this and agree somewhat. However I just... have a feeling that someone out there has a compelling logical God proof. I mean there have to be clergy of some faith somewhere who've figured it out...

For instance your GCSE example misses out the description of god as infinite mind. On this view puny human logic simply doesn't apply to god. A human mind can never fully comprehend god, so poncing about with logic to prove it one way or the other is kind of like a dog trying to beat a human at chess.

So basically I understand this as saying 'God transcends your powers of comprehension, so humans are ill-equipped to reason about whether he exists or does not'.

So if there is a God, you would neither be able to assert his existance or non-existance using any human means of thinking about it. Makes sense to me. The only problem I can see with this is that if God is so infinite then we shouldn't be able to (I'm not being funny here :) ) reason about our ability to reason about his existance. For example, dogs can't think to themselves 'Man, what those humans are doing is so complex that I'd never understand it'.

Do you see what I am driving at?

I think what you're trying to say is that we're all just picking what beliefs we feel most comfortable with. And to an extent I'd have to agree with you.

It would also explain why (excuse me for dominating the frame here a little) some are so intent to beleive in God. Humans are extremely social creatures, and tend not to live alone. Being similar to others creates rapport, and being different breaks it. Deeply religious people from families that are very religious have much to lose, emotionally, possibly financially, as by thinking differently to the pack you run the risk of being outcast (heck, if my parents didn't think I was a good muslim boy then I KNOW I would be). Would you really truly beleive in God if the tables were turned and the majority of people were atheist/agnostic? Or to phrase it another way, do you think that if you were raised in another religion, you would find and adopt the one you beleive now?

For me personally I don't know that God exists, however at the moment for all intents and purposes, and until someone can come up with a viable proof, I'm assuming he doesn't. If he does then we were never told about him though. Back in the old days when these books came out, people were burning witches, worshipping the sun, trying to turn lead to gold etc etc. A 2000/1400/however many hundred year old book, no matter what language its in is not an accurate source of absolute truth, in my opinion.

Part of this stems from the fact that I don't really like the idea that my future is decided by someone else, it makes me feel limited. Also, it makes things easier to bare when stuff goes badly,knowing there isn't a big old omnipotent wizard out to get you, and makes acheivement more enjoyable, knowing that you earned something for yourself and weren't given it.

[Andou]

Hahahaha, yeah. Frankly, I had nothing against those who truly believe...but if this "God" fellow keeps up his posting...I'm afraid I may not be neutral for long....Besides...Shouldn't God be posting on some other forum? Or telling my why my Kote hits are always a little to the left? PM me with the answer when you get the time, God...I'd appreciate it a lot.

[Charuzu]

Hahahaha, yeah. Frankly, I had nothing against those who truly believe...but if this "God" fellow keeps up his posting...I'm afraid I may not be neutral for long....

I'm with you there. The "God" poster is really starting to get on my nerves.

[drizzt]

No, not a stalemate. I don't think your pieces have even moved. Anjin-san put up some pretty good logic refuting what some consider truths that prove god does exist. I didn't see a rebuttal.
Because the burden of proof is on the one who claims something exists. Because if there is no proof that it does exist, it doesn't. This is the way that proving something exists works. Check out my earlier post in this thread.

Oh, and correct spelling and grammar are used not to impress people, but out of respect to the reader. Reading just doesn't go quickly when you're mentally straightening out someone's writing. Just a thought.

Hank.

no the burden of proof rests on the one making the claim. your challenging my beleif. Had i posted the same thing as an attack on atheism, the burden of proof would be on me. However, the objective has always been to disprove my beleifs....

SO im guessing your throwing out the idea that the early christians/jews/muslims etc. could have been right? could have seen and experienced miracles, could have communed with a higher being, simply because you were not there? history must be a short span for you. I hold that the primary sources *ie the bibal and all biblical texts) that i beleive in are true. can you disprove them? do you have any evidence to disprove them?(and im talkin about the more modern texts.........even the jewish church admits the oldest of them have been modified through the millenia)? I may be following bind faith, but i could say the same for you if you cant.


The two main argumetns i have seen are, i cant see god, and God doesnt make sense(the idea that is). Thats wonderful you cant see him, neither can I. Nor do i hold a direct line of conversation with him. Personaly i think the idea of God makes just as much sense as "well things just started at a point in time, we have no idea how time started, but it just did..........but time is circular so we somehow have always been here, even though there is a need for a beggining(i hate physics...)".

[drizzt]

Drizzt.... are you God?

only with the ladies.......i mean uh no not at all!........

BUAHAHAHAHAHA, i couldnt resist

Zieg heil Mein Grammatik fuhrer!!! LOL


BTW I am not the guy posting under God. If i was going to do it, theylld have banned my IP already LOL

[drizzt]

To drizzt, fair does. What I've come to realise is that when all is said and done, I win. You must defeat sheng long to stand a chance. Bozo.

huh? Im hoping your not refering to me as bozo.....

what flag is that under "God"'s name? i have an idea

[drizzt]

I'm curious(and mildly intoxicated), how do you find out who left rude comments under your reputation section? just wondering...

[mingshi]

Though I am always tempted by the prospect of a good argument, I've never been too impressed with objections to the existence of God based on logic. Partly because intellectually, religion is a rejection of logic anyway...
Now, now... You are being illogical...

First of all, you need to know what logic really is about. I'd pick the easiest example around. Consider the following statements:

1: I am doing kendo tonight.
2: I am not doing kendo tonight.
3: Maybe I am doing kendo or not doing kendo tonight.
4: I am doing kendo and not doing kendo tonight.

OK. So you can easily point out #4 is an illogical statement. You can't do AND not do something at the same time. As simple as that.

Also,

A. All kendo bogu is red.
B. My senpai just bought a new set of kendo bogu.
Conclusion: My senpai's new kendo bogu is red.

This is an obviously false conclusion, as Statement A is a wrong statement (kendo bogu is not red!!! :rolleyes: ).

... So by saying you can't explain god in logical terms, or saying that the existance of god is beyond logic, is just plain silly. That's the same as saying
I am doing kendo and not doing kendo tonight, or My senpai's new kendo bogu is red.

Which - if you have think about logic correctly - means that the following propositions cannot co-exist:-

i) omnipotent (all-powerful),
ii) omniscient (all-knowing),
iii) omnibenevelont (all-loving)

In other words, if you accept religion (or faith) is a rejection of logic... Then of course you are allow to believe in miracles like virgin birth, or stories like Noah's ark, or that plants are made on the third day before there was a sun (read more Genesis!)

Consider when people say "my martial art is the best". It's because they don't know any other martial art. Read more about other options can open up your choices, and definitely your mind.

[drizzt]

Now, now... You are being illogical...

First of all, you need to know what logic really is about. I'd pick the easiest example around. Consider the following statements:

1: I am doing kendo tonight.
2: I am not doing kendo tonight.
3: Maybe I am doing kendo or not doing kendo tonight.
4: I am doing kendo and not doing kendo tonight.

OK. So you can easily point out #4 is an illogical statement. You can't do AND not do something at the same time. As simple as that.

Also,

A. All kendo bogu is red.
B. My senpai just bought a new set of kendo bogu.
Conclusion: My senpai's new kendo bogu is red.

This is an obviously false conclusion, as Statement A is a wrong statement (kendo bogu is not red!!! :rolleyes: ).

... So by saying you can't explain god in logical terms, or saying that the existance of god is beyond logic, is just plain silly. That's the same as saying
I am doing kendo and not doing kendo tonight, or My senpai's new kendo bogu is red.

Which - if you have think about logic correctly - means that the following propositions cannot co-exist:-

i) omnipotent (all-powerful),
ii) omniscient (all-knowing),
iii) omnibenevelont (all-loving)

In other words, if you accept religion (or faith) is a rejection of logic... Then of course you are allow to believe in miracles like virgin birth, or stories like Noah's ark, or that plants are made on the third day before there was a sun (read more Genesis!)

Consider when people say "my martial art is the best". It's because they don't know any other martial art. Read more about other options can open up your choices, and definitely your mind.


whycant they exist together again. Someone who knows all, can do anything, and loves everyone, though improbable, could exist(in theory). i fail to see any logic in anything you said meaning there is no god. im at a loss...

I think you got your example backwards. a more classic way to put it would be
My senpai's new bogu is red, therefore all bogu is red.


You pointed out some excellent examples of illogical arguments, but failed to tie them to the ergument at hand(at least for me, but then again its three AM so..)

[louisvandalen]

If you try to explain Me or disprove My existence through logic then you really don't understand Me...

Using pure logic, can you prove that you exist...? I doubt it very much...!

I'm really trying my Lord! If I see you as everything it will be impossible to comprehent, I agree (well not really, if I could define you as everything that would be start somehow). On the other hand if you are everything why do I, a grain of sand in the neverending desert of the universe, dare to put myself in such a priviliged position and claim to hold the truth. And now I'm refering to any religion. Must I refrain from worshipping statues, trying to reach you in vain by prayers or other rituals instated to call upon you? Or must I remain modest and wait for the day I will stop seeing, everything**............

Or is any ritual good enough as long as it's there for the better and can we use the bathroom for an earlymorning session? And a question on "for the better", how do we know if the choices we make are really for the better since this often means that someone is going to get scr*wed. Better for one means worse for the other in many cases. Yeah yeah, free will I know. And ofcourse the masterplan that I am unable to forsee. God, why did you give us such a hard time in trying to figure it out? You could of at least told us about the part that's of human concern. On 1 DVD instead of thousands of religious manuscripts in really funky writings, just adding to the confusion.

Yours for as long as I can try to understand and have to pay taxes (which proves my existence in the current vacuum either fabricated or for real, by law).

** P.S. I'm not in a hurry by the way so could take my name of the list for the comming 160 years?? ;)

[mingshi]

The purpose of my last post was to describe what "logic" is and to point out that nothing goes beyond logic and reasoning.

Just re-read Anjin's post on page 2 (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showpost.php?p=114852&postcount=24) about omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevelent if you want to know why these can't coexist. Or try telling us why bad things happen to good people...

Of course there are other logic rules apart from what I pointed out. "My senpai's new bogu is red, therefore all bogu is red" is another one (I think these rules have names...) If you don't like my bogu example, try this:
A. God loves every human being.
B. Osama bin Laden is a human being.
Therefore God loves Osama bin Laden.

i have a very high IQ, and graduated from high school very close to the top of my class(and it was a clas of over 300).
It's kind of interesting that they let you through with the spellings. That says something about the quality of your school perhaps?

Last but not least, please do not feed the troll god. :smoker:

[Berugijin]

I have seen and experienced things in my life i dont beleive science has an explenation for. I saw a man literaly a half hour from being unplugged take a breath on his own for no reason......the same man sells tomatoes from his home garden and plays a tuba in our local comunity band now. the doctors have no explenation why he recovered. Maybe it was chance, fate,luck, maybe it was a miracle. I cant prove my beleif to you, just as you cant disprove it. it may see illogical to you, but in my own mind(wich contradictory to the insinuations, im not "ignorant") I find the truth to be what i beleive.

An intelligent man will seek his answers through the scientific method. A religious man on the other hand will simply attribute the things he can't understand to divine intervention.


I hope its an explenation of what and why. please poke fun at it and insult my intelligence again, i find it humorous(i wasnt reffering to you anjin-san).

I have found that only idiots claimed that they were intelligent. I'm sure you are the exception.

I have to interject this comment because its funny. I asked were was the proof God did not exist, but as usual was simply challenged to prove he did exist...... Why is that the generic response?

Because it's just as stupid as saying "prove to me there are no pink space monkeys in my backyard that scare off elephants. See? No elephants in my back yard.". It's only logical to say "prove to me that there are pink space monkeys".

Reading for you: scientific method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method) [wikipedia].

[Berugijin]

You are welcome to continue the logical argument if you want. But ultimately, I think it just comes down to the way we are wired. I am more comfortable with the world/universe/existence if I feel I can give it a name and have conversations with it. Perhaps (hesitantly, because I cannot know your mind) you are more comfortable with a non-religious world view because you like logical, rational explanations for things. Such an outlook entitles you to deal with difficult things like suffering by using statements like 'Really bad things happen to the nicest people, for no reason whatsoever'.

If I told you that I liked to talk and pray to my invisible friend, surely you would conclude that I am crazy?

[Anjin-san]

ok, with drizzt there's not much dialogue to be had. Rather than retaliating with logic, which is really the only language we have for describing truths, we're not really speaking the same language. Sorry dude, we don't have much else to talk about. When it becomes 'God exists because he's amazing, pigs fly, the red sea parts, ninjas from mars will invade in the year 2006' then I start to tune out.

I wouldn't trump up logic to be too amazing though. Speaking of logic in natural language especially isn't sound or decidable. Perhaps formal logic, propositional or predicate logic is pretty much infallable, but natural language is a bit iffy.

I'm not fond of retaliatory attacks, but one really has to consider the alternatives. I mean listen to some of you 'Ha! Fools! You and your fancy science logic! It bears no match to us and our magic blind faith!' Even if logic can't prove the existance of God, beleive me, its a little bit closer to it than one of thousands of cults started in Roman times by 'prophets' that was assimilated into Roman aristocracy. But then they weren't out to prove God. They were there to tell you that God exists.

As far as this whole burden of proof thing goes, my opinion is it shouldn't matter. If someone says 'you beleive x, prove x' one should be able to go OK bang bang bang, and at least present a case for x (or not(x)), even if its a shit one. I beleive this is key to resolving a lot of internal, emotional issues.

For me, I think the combination of beliefs make up your stance on life in general, your 'kamae' or 'operating system' if you will. It defines how you react gut-level emotionally to things, and its important to me that such an important framework has firm, justifiable foundations.

They don't all have to be about god above, in fact most aren't. For example, I could have the belief 'I suck at Kendo for my level' or I could instead believe 'for someone who's been doing Kendo as long as I have, I totally rock!'. Believing one or the other will have a drastic affect on my enjoyment, and performance in the dojo. But I'm not just going to wake up one day and DECIDE that I'm good at Kendo because everyone read it in a book that was written 2000 years ago. I need proof first.

[God]

I'm really trying my Lord! If I see you as everything it will be impossible to comprehent, I agree (well not really, if I could define you as everything that would be start somehow). On the other hand if you are everything why do I, a grain of sand in the neverending desert of the universe, dare to put myself in such a priviliged position and claim to hold the truth. And now I'm refering to any religion. Must I refrain from worshipping statues, trying to reach you in vain by prayers or other rituals instated to call upon you? Or must I remain modest and wait for the day I will stop seeing, everything**............

Or is any ritual good enough as long as it's there for the better and can we use the bathroom for an earlymorning session? And a question on "for the better", how do we know if the choices we make are really for the better since this often means that someone is going to get scr*wed. Better for one means worse for the other in many cases. Yeah yeah, free will I know. And ofcourse the masterplan that I am unable to forsee. God, why did you give us such a hard time in trying to figure it out? You could of at least told us about the part that's of human concern. On 1 DVD instead of thousands of religious manuscripts in really funky writings, just adding to the confusion.

Yours for as long as I can try to understand and have to pay taxes (which proves my existence in the current vacuum either fabricated or for real, by law).

** P.S. I'm not in a hurry by the way so could take my name of the list for the comming 160 years?? ;)
louisvandalen-San... you are sooooo Dutch !!!!

I am you and you are Me...

You will always be... and you never were... you are eternal and you don't exist...

Through pain and suffering we learn the meaning of peace and tranquility...

Your free will leads you on your path of dscovery...

PS - I'm afraid that even I can't help you with your taxes...

[Anjin-san]

Sorry for the double post, in response to GlideWater

Such an outlook entitles you to deal with difficult things like suffering by using statements like 'Really bad things happen to the nicest people, for no reason whatsoever'.

I like pretty much everything else you said, but the way you word that is leading. A better way to state that would be 'Shit happens, and its not your fault. Mop it up and lets keep going'.

i have a very high IQ, and graduated from high school very close to the top of my class(and it was a clas of over 300).

Man, you can't really tell us that and expect anyone to beleive or respect it. That kind of thing needs to be demonstrated. You can't just go up to someone and say 'Hey man! I'm polite!'. You just be polite.

[Hank]

SO im guessing your throwing out the idea that the early christians/jews/muslims etc. could have been right? could have seen and experienced miracles, could have communed with a higher being, simply because you were not there? history must be a short span for you. I hold that the primary sources *ie the bibal and all biblical texts) that i beleive in are true. can you disprove them? do you have any evidence to disprove them?(and im talkin about the more modern texts.........even the jewish church admits the oldest of them have been modified through the millenia)? I may be following bind faith, but i could say the same for you if you cant.Actually, I was thinking that history must be a pretty narrow vision for you. History of religion has been a hobby of mine for quite a while now. I've taken classes on it - I've even written a few papers (one tracing the idea of an afterlife from Egyptian death cults to Christianity - it's really fascinating how the lure of an afterlife was used in certain religions to increase their appeal to the masses). It is eye-opening to look at the big picture of religious history. As for the bible - the new testament books were written at least 100 years after the fact, presumably from word-of-mouth stories. Eh, anyway, it's really cool to look at Christianity in the context of the times that it was growing in. I highly recommend it.(i hate physics...)".Physics loves you.

Hank.

[Charuzu]

OH!! OH!!! What types of Phisics? Cuz, I LOVE PHYSICS!!!!!!! (=^o^=)

However, their is some thing that difes logic, light is both a wave and a particle.
So logic can't explain everything.
But, If god is all powerful and all loving why is their so manny mistakes? God worshippers acoite evil with gods fallen angel, satain but if god was all knowing than that means he wanted satain to become. Also, If man is made in the image of god.... Some Men are retardid.... does that mean that God is partialy retardid? Some are greegy.... does that mean that God is somewhat greedy? And If god is all loving whats the deal w/ hell??? Also, I cant spell... does that nmean that God has troubel spelling???

[Berugijin]

OH!! OH!!! What types of Phisics? Cuz, I LOVE PHYSICS!!!!!!! (=^o^=)
However, their is some thing that difes logic, light is both a wave and a particle.
So logic can't explain everything.

Bad example.

An interesting aspect of quantum mechanics is the so called "wave-particle duality". When doing physics 'the macroscopic way' (i.e. classical Newtonion stuff) light is a wave and an electron is a particle because they behave as such.

But that wasn't entirely correct. Photons act as a wave because we can spot interference when doing the double-slit experiment (Fresnel and Young). However Einstein said that photons were particles. It gets even more interesting when Einstein explained the photoelectric effect: electrons exhibit wave-like properties too.

Logic can explain everything, it's only a matter of time and effort. What defies your logic is easily explained by quantum mechanics.

(Disclaimer: I'm just an armchair physicist, I may not be entirely correct)

[Wes Nazo]

Everything you thought you knew about God's powers is wrong. Firstly, there is the small problem of the naming of abilities, by saying a entity has unlimited power in specific field of expertise limits it's power in all others. Placing simple human definitions on a non-human entity cannot properly define the deity. The core of the issue deals with the actual characteristics. One says that god is all powerful, all knowing, all seeing, and all loving.

[Optomitrist]

I'm quite surprized how many non (anti) religious people there are on this forum. Since this thread is mostly a youthful thread, spare a few, this makes me quite happy. I'm sure your upbringings taught you one thing or another but it seems you question god. Hopefully there will be a brighter future to come if so many non religios folk enter the workforce in the later years.


(I personally despise religious influence in anyway in daily life. leave it at the church. I cant tell you how mad I was when some religous fanatic came to my apartment door handing out pamflets for their church and they asked me and my girlfriend "do you go to church?" and we said "hell no" and the bible nut got all worried and said "you should really come right away." she was worried for our soul. She should have been worried that I was going to tsuki her in the throat! yayayayaHH!)

[Akai Bushi]

I'm quite surprized how many non (anti) religious people there are on this forum. Since this thread is mostly a youthful thread, spare a few, this makes me quite happy. I'm sure your upbringings taught you one thing or another but it seems you question god. Hopefully there will be a brighter future to come if so many non religios folk enter the workforce in the later years.


(I personally despise religious influence in anyway in daily life. leave it at the church. I cant tell you how mad I was when some religous fanatic came to my apartment door handing out pamflets for their church and they asked me and my girlfriend "do you go to church?" and we said "hell no" and the bible nut got all worried and said "you should really come right away." she was worried for our soul. She should have been worried that I was going to tsuki her in the throat! yayayayaHH!)
Let the Christian persecution begin. Because someone wants to give you a message of peace you want to tsuki them. I hope this world is more civilized than this. When Buddhists in my town try to convert me I'm very polite to them. Everyone deserves respect. Next thing we'll go back to Roman times and we'll be fed to the lions. But o well. Easy come easy go.

[Wes Nazo]

[QUOTE=Akai Bushi]Let the Christian persecution begin. Because someone wants to give you a message of peace you want to tsuki them.QUOTE]

It's not about being given a message of peace, it the patronizing attitude that these missionary types have:It comes down to my religion versus your religion. My religion is the right one. Your religion is bogus and an abomination to the One True™ God.

[Charuzu]

[QUOTE=Akai Bushi]Let the Christian persecution begin. Because someone wants to give you a message of peace you want to tsuki them.QUOTE]

It's not about being given a message of peace, it the patronizing attitude that these missionary types have:It comes down to my religion versus your religion. My religion is the right one. Your religion is bogus and an abomination to the One True™ God.

I fully agree with you. It gets very, very annoying.

Also, meow (=^o^=)

[Berugijin]

[QUOTE=Akai Bushi]Let the Christian persecution begin. Because someone wants to give you a message of peace you want to tsuki them.QUOTE]

It's not about being given a message of peace, it the patronizing attitude that these missionary types have:It comes down to my religion versus your religion. My religion is the right one. Your religion is bogus and an abomination to the One True™ God.

I wholeheartedly agree. It reminds me of that South Park episode with Sally Struthers (depicted as Jabba the Hut) where they ask for money to convert the heathen aliens... :)

[Fonsz]

As of this moment the Anti or Non religious types are the majority. The converts are the majority of the religious ones. The Non religious posters have quite (in my opinion) made their point or brought in reasonable doubt which in a court of law would be questioned by any jury. The religious folk revert to vague terms, and is getting them nowhere.

Anjin-San as the voice of reason who was brought up quite religious (a Haji no less) has stated a lot of good points with whom I fully concur(Sp?). The Christian Department from the US I'm afraid is not really trying or we are getting to the core of what this is all about. If in doubt you are a non believer.

Our man in Belgium really hates religion and everything it stands for. That's funny because usually folks in Belgium are quite Catholic, but they are on the other hand very pragmatic in serious issues. Who would have tought that we could have such an interesting discussion on a Forum with people who are mainly concerned about hitting each other over the head?

I also agree with the disgust of the patronizing manner of the Missionaries.They roam around here in Europe and they all come from Salt Lake City and wear a suit even in Summer.

It is very interesting so far to see what Religion can do to people. I also miss our Canadian Friends, is Christianity in Canada experienced the same way as their Southern neighbors? Looks like the staunch Christians are converged in the US and specifically in the Southern regions. (Correct me if I'm wrong).
Like I said before the Lord sure moves in mysterious ways.

[GlideWalker]

Please just let it drop?!?!?! I have other things to do this weekend!

OK. My latest opinions are as follows.

Anjin-san: Very thoughtful. Your most poignant observation is the one about whether I would still be a Christian if I it ran against my friends/family/society etc. I have a terrible fear that my 'chosen' faith has yet to be tested under real pressure. I hope that if that day ever comes that I shall not be found wanting. I have come through a few tough scrapes before I became a Christian so hopefully I’ll be OK. It must be hard for you to deal with your family in the circumstances you describe. You have my respect and sympathy.



Also your articulation of what I shall now call the ‘Shit Happens’ argument is exactly what I meant to express. Cheers.

I hasten to point out that non-religious persons are not exempt from challenges that test them in equally profound ways.



Mingshi. Hmmmm…. I always enjoy your posts and also have a look at your blog from time to time. You are clearly a gifted person and I grateful for the opportunity to get into an argument with you. I mean this in a good way. Like a good kendo fight that I can learn from. Here goes....



I understand all the points you make in this thread. I can sit here and do logic and Boolean algebra with you all week. You might beat me at it but that is not the point. I agree that everything in the public (objective) world out there is within the bounds of reason in the way that you describe. What we are concerned with here is the dark inner stuff of our personal experiences. All of us will have had a variety of experiences in life that have affected us emotionally. On the bad side, few if any of us will escape the agony of loosing a loved one at some stage. On the good side most of us will have the joy of meeting someone really special. Even if that person does not become our life partners, most of us will have a ‘love of our lives’. Now, I PERSONALLY find logic and reason a pretty unwieldy tool for dealing with things like this. If, like Hank, you are content to just mooch along not worrying about such matters (sorry, I mean not worrying about the reasons for such things, Hank. I don’t mean to suggest that you lack sentiment just because you never ask why you are here!). Fine. If you, Mingshi are content with a world view where everything has a rational explanation, also fine. The problem is that only people outside a highly emotional situation get to discuss the logic of it. Those in its midst don’t give a damn about Aristotle’s law of the excluded middle, the colour of your Sensei’s Bogu or Jeremy Bentham’s attempt to replace religious morality with a form of calculus. (Sorry Anjin, had to get that one in!)



It’s just that Anjin finds it really scary if there is an all powerful wizard waiting to catch him out. I find it really scary if there is NOT a benign intelligence out there somewhere that actually knows what is going on.



I may not be clever enough to convince you of my case, Mingshi. But I will go to my grave convinced that there is more to the human condition than rational explanation.



One final thing. Your advice about reading more about other options is very sound. One of the main reasons I took up Kendo is that it has its roots in a society and culture very different from my own and has influences that include Buddhism, Confucianism and Shinto.* Whether this is important or not is actually what started this argument, isn’t it?



Anyway, I hope you take these points in the respectful way they are intended and I look forward to your response, if you have time.





As for one or two others:

God. Sorry to encourage the troll, but your first post was a definite LOL! It’s only funny the once though, so maybe give it a rest now?



Hank, yeah nice graceful, down to earth arguments with no unnecessary complications. Unlike my kendo!



Drizzt. You are a bozo…… Sorry, you totally set yourself up for that!



Berugijin. My invisible friend is crazier than yours.



Optometrist and Akai. You two definitely have issues!



*I am enjoying learning about these things and if anyone knows of any cheap or free on-line sources of old Kendo related literature (other than Hagakure and Five Rings, which I already have), I’d be grateful. Needs to be English translations – scuse my ignorance.

[drizzt]

Im actualy starting to get rather tired of being insulted. Let me deliver some credentials. I am 19 and atteninding Texas A&M university(wich is a campus of about 50000 people). I maintain around a 3.0 gpa(wich is about average). I graduated magna cum laude from high school with a 3.92. what do you want more proof of? I'm not going to change the way i reply just to make a bunch of faceless names behind computers happy. Im also going to stop replying to this. This thread has degenerated into something worthy of a presidential campaign. I make a point, and four people come back telling me im A. stupid, and B. cant be right because i take the side of religion. All you need to do now is make fun of me for being from Texas. I'm not going to be insulted anymore, and im not going to continue a debate thats been reduced to "im right, your wrong because I said so".

BTW for those wondering about the around 3.0. At midterm I had a 2.8. I was forced to withdraw for medical reasons(i was hospitalized and nearly lost a foot). Had the newest test scores been posted it would have been a 3.1. I have no idea how much farther i could have gotten it up at finals. The average grades at this university are around a 3.0, so im not a super genious, but im not an under achiever.

[drizzt]

Drizzt. You are a bozo…… Sorry, you totally set yourself up for that!



Why me.....

[Optomitrist]

[QUOTE=Akai Bushi]Let the Christian persecution begin. Because someone wants to give you a message of peace you want to tsuki them.QUOTE]

It's not about being given a message of peace, it the patronizing attitude that these missionary types have:It comes down to my religion versus your religion. My religion is the right one. Your religion is bogus and an abomination to the One True™ God.

yes, that is what I mean.

[Optomitrist]

I dont understand why people are attacking eachother. I thought this as a discusion on ideals and principles not the personal beliefs of specific others. That is what drives people away from forums.

[Berugijin]

I dont understand why people are attacking eachother. I thought this as a discusion on ideals and principles not the personal beliefs of specific others. That is what drives people away from forums.

Uhh... Isn't an 'ideal' and a 'principle' a personal belief almost by definition? I don't feel that people are attacking eachother but merely eachother's ideas. Which is completely fine in my book, even encouraged. How else will we learn more if not through discussion?

[Anjin-san]

Jeremy Bentham’s attempt to replace religious morality with a form of calculus. (Sorry Anjin, had to get that one in!)

What, you mean utilitarianism? Its been said that this country is run under that mindset. You're using the negative word-association most people have with the term 'calculus' in this context to make his ideas sound inhuman. Another word for calculus in this instance is 'The greatest good for the greatest number of people'. There's more were that came from at 'The Godless Institution of Gower Street'. :wink:

What you're saying to jenny amounts to:

'logic is great, but when people get emotional they forget it'

I understand and agree 100%. However that doesn't say anything about the standing of logic as a tool for asserting the truth of a matter.

As I stated in an earlier post I like to have external justification for my beliefs, that means something that transcends all the hormones and shit that are floating around in my bloodstream, affecting the way I act and feel. Thats really all emotions are, (for an interesting read, check out 'The Alchemy of Love and Lust' - Crenshaw.) Logic provides a structure for doing that, outside of all emotion and humanatiy-induced ambiguous gooeeness.

Also, I get the feeling that you're insinuating some kind of coldness from living a life where everything has a rational explanation. From your own assertion that people who are in an emotional state don't know about logic, turning it around, it should be clear that the two issues are separate. For example, I go out with some friends, pick up chicks in a bar (or not :P). I know on a basic logical, and biological level why I'm doing this. But that doesn't make the feeling any LESS of a feeling than say if you or some extremely spiritual person were doing the same.

Thats maybe a bad example. Say a very scientific person and a non-scientific person go on a rollercoaster. The scientific person know that by being propelled at high speed on a track like this, his body will react by increasing blood pressure, fast breathing, all induced by the visual, physical and audio sense-data his brain is processing. The non-scientific person is oblivious to all that crap. The scientific person does not have some kind of immunity to the rollercoaster just because he knows how it affects him, the ride is just as intense for both of them.

In the same way, if I lose someone dear to me or if I fall in love (yeah fricking right!!!) its in no way any less intense than if you, or anyone else who doesn't like logic were to do the same.

Oh, and just to make sure we're all on the same page here. I'd like to logically assert that you're all bozo's, and I hope they don't let you breed. Especially you drizzt.

[drizzt]

Oh, and just to make sure we're all on the same page here. I'd like to logically assert that you're all bozo's, and I hope they don't let you breed. Especially you drizzt.


Thats going a bit far man... :P

[Anjin-san]

I hope that if that day ever comes that I shall not be found wanting.

Just a quick side note, I'm of the belief that you shouldn't judge your own personal worth on whether you're right or wrong, because then half the time you'd be 'found wanting'. For example, if I were visited by a divine being tomorrow and told 'sorry mate, you're wrong, we/I/one do/does exist' then it doesn't leave me 'wanting'. I was wrong, I got put right, I change, improve, continue.

I can understand that the way that religious beliefs are set up in society makes them a very large part of your identity. I AM a christian, or I AM a muslim. (Cialdini on human behaviour), if people commit to something they usually follow through.

For example, would you ever consider quitting kendo? I know, unthinkable right? Why not? Because you already committed to it, leaving would label you as a time-waster. I'll admit that there have been times where this (and UCL Kendo Club) have been the only thing that kept me going. Leaving would mean very bad things for me. Do I have better more productive things to do? I most certainly do. However it would mean that all of this time I'd been wrong about Kendo. Leaving behind something as identity-central as a religion is a lot harder.

And that, in my opinion, is a much greater leap of faith into the unknown than any holy scripture can ask you to take. Do you have any idea how much uncertainty that brings into your psyche? That minute or hour or day when you decide 'OK, maybe God doesn't exist.... and?' Its what drove me to read up on all this and how humans react to it, and to figure out what beliefs meant to me....

Sorry, got sidetracked there... bozo's.

[drizzt]

Thank you whoever left the stupid comment lol! That one was better than the first......

[Jesus]

Be at peace friends. Do not fight and argue, for all will stand before my father and atone for there sins. Go in peace.

[Charuzu]

Be at peace friends. Do not fight and argue, for all will stand before my father and atone for there sins. Go in peace.

Grrrrrr..... will you peopel stop this already it's VERY annoying!!

\_(>o< ;)

[drizzt]

i think god got anew screen name lol....

[Anjin-san]

Yeah tahts pretty annoying, though I have to hand it to this troll, good job. Little details like the isreali flag really make this one a treat.

[Wes Nazo]

Do you have any idea how much uncertainty that brings into your psyche? That minute or hour or day when you decide 'OK, maybe God doesn't exist.... and?' Its what drove me to read up on all this and how humans react to it, and to figure out what beliefs meant to me....


Randomness scares people. Religion is a way to explain randomness. A few people think on a diferent level than the majority of the population. I am naturally a skeptic, so no matter how wonderful it would be for me to be able to believe in a personal creator that loves and watches over me, it is physically impossible for me. I must have some sort of reasoning to believe in an idea, not just someone's word.

[Jesus]

You should not call names, my brothers. Let the lord guide you, as it he has done for so many great men of science, and laymen as well.

[crabbi]

Yeah tahts pretty annoying, though I have to hand it to this troll, good job. Little details like the isreali flag really make this one a treat.Hmmm.... Ithought that God's Vatican Flag was also a fine detail... but then I guess you'd have to know that it's a Vatican State Flag....
Grrrrrr..... will you peopel stop this already it's VERY annoying!!Don't take yourself so seriously mate... no-one else does!!!

[Charuzu]

Crabbi I'm confused on what your saying??

PS - I'm #100 w00t! (=^o^=)

[Hank]

You should not call names, my brothers. Let the lord guide you, as it he has done for so many great men of science, and laymen as well.Did Jesus just tell me to go lay men?

Hank.

Punctuation is a wonderful thing.

[Mary Magdalene]

You should not call names, my brothers. Let the lord guide you, as it he has done for so many great men of science, and laymen as well.

Jesus, darling, when are you coming home?

[mingshi]

<Brag brag>... Im also going to stop replying to this...
You liar!!!! - Just like any of those Aquatic Windu dude...

[Akai Bushi]

[QUOTE=Akai Bushi]Let the Christian persecution begin. Because someone wants to give you a message of peace you want to tsuki them.QUOTE]

It's not about being given a message of peace, it the patronizing attitude that these missionary types have:It comes down to my religion versus your religion. My religion is the right one. Your religion is bogus and an abomination to the One True™ God.
Not every missionary is the greatests. They're people and people have bad emotions. I agree with you completely about some people that are Christian having a bad additude. That's one of the reasons I don't go to church and I worship on my own.
But, you have completely laid it out why non-Christians hate Christians no one likes being told that I believe your going to suffer eternal damnation unless you change. I personally don't try to convert people. I think it does more to hurt covertion than make it happen. Jesus' message of love and peace as well has his sacrifice is all that people should be converted on. You can't scare people into believeing.
And isn't Christianity an abomination to hardcore evolutionists?
And I have a question as to whether you think Christianity should be stamped out with tsukis to the throat?

[Berugijin]

And I have a question as to whether you think Christianity should be stamped out with tsukis to the throat?

Because a mob of people who will believe anything you tell them is very dangerous and the last thing we need?

If you want to know why it's dangerous, take a look at the good ol' US of A. People who mindlessly believe everything you tell them and can't think critically should their life depend on it are dangerous. They are the primary cause of the war in Afghanistan, Iraq and more to come.

[Wout]

I love it when people discuss about God and someone comes up with a story about someone who just 'came back from the dead and doctors can't explain it,and then they look at you, 'hah now you try to explain that my friend, that's a work from God.''

Well people including doctors don't know anything, but they learn.

It's the same argument a caveman could use to explain the existance of gods by looking at lightning and saying to the other caveman, now you try to explain that, the other caveman doesn't know what to do but to agree there must be a God somewhere.
The great thing about religion is it'll try to full those lacunes
The great thing of science is it realises that those fillers heve no real basis and there are always a million things you don't know, therefore it's a selfperpetuating art.

And I agree that reality can be logically explained, i.e.
To know everything one must expierience everything first hand
to expirience everything first hand one must be omnipresent (ass well in time as in space)
it takes an omnipresententity to be all knowing

It takes an all knowing entity to take into account every variable to explain everything
Man is not omnipresent therefore it is not all knowing
Man can not explain everything


PS I'm never bothered by spelling mistakes, I always read over them

[Jesus]

HEHEHEHE Hi dear :)