origin of the Katana?

[JohnHershman]

ok, so far i have heard two different stories about how the katana came to be.

the first one is that the katana was modeled after the Muslim's sword used in the crusades, in other words the katana is a modified schimitar. if this is true then somehow the japanese traveled to the mideast or somehow encountered one and modeled after it... I find this one very unlikely. I am reading a Book called samurai william and it is talking about the first europeans(portugese) who found japan and they called the katanas schimitars, so thats my guess as to where this history came into being.

the other i heard is that when china contoled Japan that the emporer of china had a double edged sword and out of respect for the emporer the japanese made single edged weapons....

dunno if either of these are true, give me your take and if you heard a diferent one please share!

[Jacynth]

Correct me If I'm wrong but the muslim swords are not schmitars. They are just curved swords. Schmitars originated from persia.

[sou]

After the monguls tryed to invade japan the japanese needed to create a better close combat weapon..... The monguls weapons where better and the only reason the monguls fled was because the devine wind( a typhon)....

[JohnHershman]

honestly i am not sure, but thats what was under the impression they were called



Correct me If I'm wrong but the muslim swords are not schmitars. They are just curved swords. Schmitars originated from persia.

[Philippe]

ok, so far i have heard two different stories about how the katana came to be.

the first one is that the katana was modeled after the Muslim's sword used in the crusades, in other words the katana is a modified schimitar.
Now that's a pretty far-fetched idea.

the other i heard is that when china contoled Japan that the emporer of china had a double edged sword and out of respect for the emporer the japanese made single edged weapons....
Err... China never controlled Japan...

dunno if either of these are true, give me your take and if you heard a diferent one please share!
It was simple independent evolution, based on the technology and circumstances of warfare in the Japanese archipelago.

The went from straight double-edged swords, to straight single-edged swords that cut better, to curved singled-edged swords that were better for fighting from horseback and also served admirably for fighting on foot. The katana is simply the end result of that development.

[tattooedasshole]

Correct me If I'm wrong but the muslim swords are not schmitars. They are just curved swords. Schmitars originated from persia.
The muslims are using scimitars. They were invented by persians. Persia was a huge country depending on what period in history (when Greece was a power, Persia was almost everything to the east of Greece). Most muslims can trace their ancestry back to persia, or the Ottoman empire.

The japanese originaly made sword based on chinese designs. The sword changed gradualy from straight tachi, to curved tachi, then into the katana, as requirements/methodes of use changed (horse back/ground troops. ect.).

[gsx1100s]

Here's the definitive Katana Timeline , hope it helps.......

http://www.katanacentral.co.uk/history/katanatimeline.asp

Oh ...that sort of Katana ....:) :wink:

cheers Michael

[aquilonian]

I am not sure and dont think anyone can say for a fact of the katanas origin. the japanese culture as we know it(feudal times, religion,ect.) is a very new culture by most standards. but the muslim idea is not that far fetched considering that most modern martial arts came from the middle east. one of the most obious exeptions being capoeira. The major religions today also came from the middle east (biggest exeption scientology). the idea of making drawings for sounds (today its called writting) also came from the middle east they had the first writting system. It seems that at one point in history the middle east was where the most advanced nations existed. ironic considering they are now viewed as savages here.
However the japanese have made the katana into a weapon all their own, that does not immitate any other, even the sabre or calvary sword although more practical its not the same. as long as we are guessing wich is all we can really do, make educated guesses. my guess would be that the japanese in their attempt to make a better edge, stumbled across the method that is used for katanas today for differential hadening. who ever made the first katana was probably trying to make the single edge of a straight sword, covering the sword with some material (maybe not even clay) and leaving the edge uncovered, upon quenching created the curve that the katana is known for. of course with this method only one edge can be created because it radically changes the structure of the sword. over time I believe the edge held up remarkably well, and gained fame. little by little being accepted by the warrior class, not only for its performance, but the cost of a blade made in this fashion would have been lower as oppossed to a straight double edged weapon with similar edge performance. sience the origin of the samurai or servant started in the farmer class, cost would have been of importance to a half starving samurai. Later as we all know after minimoto yoritomo they became bushi and future bushi had to come from bushi stock with almost no exeption. when the katana became a national symbol mostly during WWII they became sought after collectibles, different katana from different times have different quality, most katana made were not very good. however there are true masterpieces that are truly outstanding by anyones standards, which when you learn of the craptastic quality of the steel used to make such worthy weapons (and I mean junk) your attention is directed towards the smith rather than the blade (this is where the awe for this swords comes from). I believe it was a welcome mistake, just that a mistake. therefore giving this sword its origin in japan, yes there was already tougher curved swords before, but not in likenes to the katana. It truly is ... japanese.



did you know the word sword came from rome having its original meaning as penis? And that the word testify came from the romans as well, when they would testify on a trial they would raise one hand and squeeze their testicles with the other,and proclaim "I testify!", hence the word testi-fy. Now adays we have replaced the testicles with the bible to fill this custum.

[gsx1100s]

did you know the word sword came from rome having its original meaning as penis? And that the word testify came from the romans as well, when they would testify on a trial they would raise one hand and squeeze their testicles with the other,and proclaim "I testify!", hence the word testi-fy. Now adays we have replaced the testicles with the bible to fill this custum.

Sorry gotta correct you on that one Aquilonian san :

Testify

There is bit of folklore floating about that the word testify (with its associated forms like testimony and testament) derives from testicle. The legend has it that ancient Romans would hold their testes while swearing oaths. This is not true. The word does not derive from testicle, nor did Romans swear oaths on their private parts.
Testify, et. al., derives from the Latin testis meaning witness. Testicle also derives from testis. The testes are witnesses to a man's virility.

cheers Michael

[Gregory]

After the monguls tryed to invade japan the japanese needed to create a better close combat weapon..... The monguls weapons where better and the only reason the monguls fled was because the devine wind( a typhon)....


actually the kama-kazie (divine wind) was a monsoon


that wasnt meant to be obnoxious :)

[aquilonian]

[QUOTE=gsx1100s]Sorry gotta correct you on that one Aquilonian san :

correctomundo! I humbly accept yor correction. To tell the truth I recognize that the example you presented is much more plausable. but the one I presented is much more entertaining.
The suporters of the testicle idea present the following quote (from the blible of all places): genesis 24:2 Hence Abraham said to his servant, the oldest one of his household who was managing all he had: " Put you hand, please, under my thigh as I must have you swear by -----(God, Lord, Jehova, adonai, spongebob squirtpants, the jedi ect.... whoever you want) that you will not take a wife for my son....." They also point out the similarities betweent the words testicle testis testimony ect bla bla bla bla
He did say under my thigh and not "on my balls" so it's not too clear althoug this leads me to the conclusion that the writer of this passage of the bible was either : Gay himself or just......not straight.
Anyhow you win ......why am I even debating this?


post script: You can't make direct quotes from websites man, thats cheating you even wrote the et. al., with the period and the comma.

pps Ah wordorigins.org is a nice website indeed! (good fun you got rep points)

[Philippe]

actually the kama-kazie (divine wind) was a monsoon
Re-actually (:D), the kamikaze [神風] were typhoons (taifū [台風] in Japanese). Monsoon refers to the rain bringing wind in India and nearby parts of Southeast Asia, or to the rainy season associated with said wind.

Typhoons are the Pacific ocean version of hurricanes.

[Hisham]

The swords used by muslims in the crusades were the Damascus swords which process of forging was the standard in Damascus and if i'm not mistaken in Toledo two when it was under muslim rule that is.The Damascus sword is said to rival the katana at many levels, the sad thing is there aren't that many studies about the subject either in arabic or in any other language plus the fact that unlike the japanese swordsmiths who kept there tradition going, the arab ones didn't for many reasons waiting to be researched.
The sword was a major symbol in arabia's warring tribes era, you'd notice that just by reading pre-islamic poetry, just to tell you that design of a sword was a pride in those days and saying that they used persian scimitars is in a way oversimplifying the matter.

Most muslims can trace their ancestry back to persia, or the Ottoman empire.


Not really, the Ottoman turks may trace there ancestry to persia but not most muslims including arabs.

[gsx1100s]

I agree yours is far more entertaining ! :)





[QUOTE=aquilonianpost script: You can't make direct quotes from websites man, thats cheating you even wrote the et. al., with the period and the comma.

pps Ah wordorigins.org is a nice website indeed! (good fun you got rep points .)

It's a great website and yes my apologies for being so lazy lol

cheers Michael

[gsx1100s]

Here's a link that has a small amount of history on the Katana ...( for real :) )


http://www.hyoho.com/Kiso10.html

cheers michael

[tattooedasshole]

The swords used by muslims in the crusades were the Damascus swords which process of forging was the standard in Damascus and if i'm not mistaken in Toledo two when it was under muslim rule that is.The Damascus sword is said to rival the katana at many levels, the sad thing is there aren't that many studies about the subject either in arabic or in any other language plus the fact that unlike the japanese swordsmiths who kept there tradition going, the arab ones didn't for many reasons waiting to be researched.
The sword was a major symbol in arabia's warring tribes era, you'd notice that just by reading pre-islamic poetry, just to tell you that design of a sword was a pride in those days and saying that they used persian scimitars is in a way oversimplifying the matter.



Not really, the Ottoman turks may trace there ancestry to persia but not most muslims including arabs.
From 1517 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1517) onwards, the Ottoman Sultan was also the Caliph of Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliph), and the Ottoman Empire was from 1517 until 1922 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1922) (or 1924 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1924)) synonymous with the Caliphate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate), the Islamic State.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire
The Ottoman's do not trace their ancestry to Persia.
Scimitar is a cath-all for curved swords from western asia, typicaly refering to Arabian swords.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scimitar

[Hisham]

The Ottoman's do not trace their ancestry to Persia.

What i said is that the turks "might" trace there ancestry or be closer to persians than any other muslim ethnicity since there are many turkophone countries in central asia especially after the fall of the USSR, even in west of China(the ouigurs/yugurs).


Most muslims can trace their ancestry back to persia, or the Ottoman empire.

What you said here is wrong, and that's what i tried to shed some light on.


Scimitar is a cath-all for curved swords from western asia, typicaly refering to Arabian swords.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scimitar

This description is fine by me still it's a general one which proves that there isn't much information or research available about the subject. I tried at the swordforum the first time i heard about that board and guess what, you might find one or two threads but only of somebody showing some pics and that's it.

To John: sorry for being out of the katana subject.

[isatay]

Turks trace their history to Central Asia. There are still Turkish countries in Central Asia(or as we say it: "Turkistan")

Samurai katana is founded by japanese people, there is no question about that. but curved blade has a very long history. As an art historian who studied uppergraduate about Central asian archeology and art, I can tell that first curved blade swords were used by central asian nomads in 6. century B.C. there are single edged curved swords in Russian museums from this century. this type of sword was specially developed for cavalry. Nomadic raiders, including Turks and Mongolians, introduced this weapon to other cultures both in east and west. After Turks convertion to İslam, this single handed one edged curved blade became populer muslim sword type.

This elegant weapon became perfect in shape and in material(double-watered Damascus steel is the very best sword steel) at 16th century in Ottoman Empire.

here are some examples:
www.turkishculture.org/ weapons/sword8.html

http://img201.echo.cx/my.php?image=ph00qd.jpg&tc=img201/9748/8330uq.jpg

http://img201.echo.cx/my.php?image=empiresword18va.jpg&tc=img201/9748/8330uq.jpg

http://img201.echo.cx/my.php?image=8330uq.jpg&tc=img201/9748/8330uq.jpg

[isatay]

another picture of turkish blade:

http://img201.echo.cx/my.php?image=sword81ej.jpg&tc=img201/9748/8330uq.jpg

[muramasa]

I will answer within the range where I know the Japanese sword.

If the answer is frankly described, the sword of Islam doesn't influence the sword of Japan. It is thought that the sword of Japan brought dramatic improvements in originally in the society in Japan.

It is because another country is not invaded Japan is an island nation for reason. In a word, it was formed with the civil war of Japan.
(By the way, when Mongolia attacks Japan, the Japanese sword attains to perfection almost.)

Then, what is the origin of the Japanese sword?
The steel manufacture technology was brought by Japan in about the fifth
century, and the sword came to be made.

The sword made at that time had straight shape, and was grasped by one hand. The combat style at this time has the sword in one hand, and has the escutcheon in the other hand. And, it doesn't cut but it pierces a target.

This style is an at that time continental style.

In a certain theory, it is said that this age did not use the sword because of
the combat. (The spear was chiefly used in the combat. The sword was a symbol of the authority.)

And, the age flowed, and the civil war led to Japan. The steel manufacture
technology has improved rapidly simultaneously.

And, a definite change takes place. Though the age division is not clear.

It may be called the essence of the Japanese sword. That is, from one hand to both hands. From double-edged to Single-edged. From the straight blade to the curved blade.

There is an interesting point about this change.
It is different people groups in Japan. A people different from the rule layer existed in Japan at that time, and both were conflicting. (people who is called Emishi)

There is a movie that the Hayao Miyazaki supervisor produced. It is "The Princess of Mononoke".
"Ashitaka" who appears in the story is a prince of Emishi.

Emishi lived in the Tohoku part of the Japanese Islands.

In arms that they used, there is "Warabi Teno Katana"(蕨手刀).

It is said that this sword had a large influence on the formed of the
Japanese sword according to one theory.

Afterwards, Emishi was ruined through war disturbances. It was absorbed by the people of the majority.

And, the sword of the legend named "Kogarasu Maru"(小烏丸) was made in about the tenth century.

This sword was made by "Amakuni"(天国), and given to "Heike"(平家) by the emperor. This sword became Heike's(平家) heirloom.

This sword has a unique part compared with other swords. It is shape of the blade. The blade of this sword is double-edged from the center of blade to point of a sword and, it is curved blade.

The blade is double-edged though the feature of the Japanese sword is filled.

What does this mean?
Perhaps, having given birth in the process of evolving from an ancient sword to the Japanese sword might be this sword.
And, this sword is the first sword that became shape of curved blade, has proven this sword to be a product of the evolution process.

And, the Japanese sword of the type that we know well comes to be made after this.

The technology of the Japanese sword reaches the peak from the 12th century to the 14th century. The sword made in this age is still handled as great goods, and it is not possible to reproduce it by a modern technology.
A lot of works of famous sword-maker "msamune"(正宗) were made in this age.

The Japanese sword was handled as a treasure also in foreign countries, and the representative of exports in the trade with China after this.

[Hisham]

Pretty interesting read.

[mero]

Katana is a unique because it's Japanese. Period.

However, certain features such as its two handed nature from single hand, or double-edged to single-edged, or from straight blade to the curved blade, metallurgy, swordsmith techniques are not really unique to the Japanese Katana as all these features existed in China, Korea, Middle East long before it was Japanized and I think it's pretty much impossible that Japan created these features exclusive of continental influence when everything(language, culture, clothes, technology, religion, etc.) wasn't.

And in my opinion, claiming Katana was influenced at all by Emishi, proto Ainu, is just nationalistic mythology in my opinion as credible as Koreans claiming Samurai originates from Korea.

[muramasa]

Thank you for your reply.
I have the thing to tell you first. It is that I am not good at English.
Therefore, communication each other might be difficult.
My opinion might not be accurately transmitted to you. The opposite might exist, too. Please understand this thing.

Well, I want to answer your opinion.
About the first.
First of all, it apologizes for my sentence's insufficient explanations.
I do not think that the Japanese sword appeared suddenly.
Ancient Japan learnt various things from the continent. It is as you point it out. Swords that were called "kantou-no-tati" were made in China and Korea, and it was imported to Japan from continental. Moreover, an ancient Japanese imitated it.
The swords making of ancient Japan was done so and started. This is true of the history, and I admit.

But,I think it to be the same thing also in Korea and China.
I think that it is natural that the culture and the technology and more are imported on to another country by another country. I think, "It is natural" though a country that exported these thing to another country might boast, "We taught these things". It is because the country that expresses gratitude in this world for Hittites doesn't exist.
Even if a character necessary to assume that we write the fascinating novel, and to write arises from the Chinese character of China, we need not express our gratitude to China, and this novel is not China's. I think that these examples are the same as the example of the Japanese sword.
I think that an important thing is a change and evolution afterwards.
You say that various points that are the features of the Japanese sword are
not Japanese original. But, swords of the Japanese sword form were not produced in the continent at that time.
It is because a curved sword or the sword of the Japanese sword type cannot be discovered in continent before Japan exports the Japanese sword to the continent. (The reference: Japan has been exporting the Japanese sword since about the tenth century. )
Continental arms were spears or archery about this age. It doesn't have the feature like the Japanese sword though there were swords, too.
The Japanese sword exported to the continent in about the tenth century has spread chiefly in China. I hear that about 200,000 was exported by Japan, and valued highly in Chinese "明" from the 10th century to the 13th century.
The Japanese sword is imported, and being valued highly by China of the 15th century. The pirate who was frequently called "倭寇" appeared in China at that time and the continent was ruined. Finally, to oppose them, a Chinese government decided to need more Japanese swords, and to imitate it voluntarily. The phenomenon opposite to ancient times was caused like this.
It will be able to be presumed that the process that Japan is changed from ancient swords to the Japanese sword is in a word Japanese original.
It is necessary to discover the relic that influences Japan if it is proven that the influence of the continent was received. I think that it is difficult to presume that the influence of the continent brought changing the Japanese sword now since it is not discovered. However, the technology that became those origins is a continental technology. I want to confirm this.
I assumed that changing the Japanese sword was Japanese original in such a
meaning. And, it introduced the sword of Ezo as one of the reasons.
You say that this theory is a myth . However, this theory is treated as a fact or a strong inference and researching.
Therefore, I think that it is a mistake that I am a nationalist.
However, the fact that you recognized me like that demands reflection of me.

There is a thing that wants to be described at the end. I am that I do not want to insist that continental swords are inferior to Japanese swords at all.
It is nonsense, and is not significant to compare both.
A continental sword evolves originally and Japan is the same as it.
And, each other influenced it.
A fundamental, basic technology of the Japanese sword was a continental origin.
I think that wonderful thing in the Japanese sword is thing that to change and to develop the brought technology from the continent by Japanese original.

[mero]

I would just like to add that your attitudes expressed regarding Japan, China, Korea relations is weirdly defensive and off-putting. No one is asking Japan to give thanks nor is anyone claiming anyone taught Japan how to make swords, etc.. I can't help but think that you're putting up strawman arguments tinged with nationalism here.

In any case, curvature of Japanese sword was not unique at the time. Two handed single curved swords had existed in continental asia. It was just out of vogue. It's effectiveness was recognized though when hordes of Japanese pirates wielding long single edged swords that were longer than traditional Chinese swords started to reak havok in China and Korea.