Hasso and waki

[Valhalla_Knight]

I use Chudan a lot. I like it. I Also use Jodan sometimes (useful) and Gedan very often (also useful).
They have good advantages and a few disvantages, but I started to wonder about usefulness of Hasso and Waki.

How can we use it in keiko or shiai?
Are they useful?

[WolfofMibu]

so far from what i have heard hasso and waki cant really be useful in kendo. in kenjutsu it can but in kendo since you are going for the quick strike instead of a powerful blow its almost impossible to score a point with it. i was also wondering about that as well and i asked my sensei about it and he told me what i just told you. they are both equally cool stances.

[Charuzu]

Waki Is very useful in kenjutsu but it really wouldn't be good in kendo... and as for Hasso??? I am new to this ^o^

[nodachi]

Waki and Hasso are elements of kendo are bits and pieces of old swordsmanship that have been retained to keep more traditional swordsmanship a part of kendo. Realistically they have no use in kendo, just only to preserve traditions. They do have their use in traditional swordsmanship, but in kendo using them would put you at a disadvantage.

I don't know how acurate this is because I am recycling things I have heard in the past, but Hasso is useful for closed in spaces and for fighting multiple opponents. Don't ask me how as I am merely regurgitating random comments I have heard, although if that is wrong, I do deserve to be yelled at for passing on false info. My apologies if that is the case.

[StarD0G]

Waki and Hasso are elements of kendo are bits and pieces of old swordsmanship that have been retained to keep more traditional swordsmanship a part of kendo. Realistically they have no use in kendo, just only to preserve traditions. They do have their use in traditional swordsmanship, but in kendo using them would put you at a disadvantage.

I don't know how acurate this is because I am recycling things I have heard in the past, but Hasso is useful for closed in spaces and for fighting multiple opponents. Don't ask me how as I am merely regurgitating random comments I have heard, although if that is wrong, I do deserve to be yelled at for passing on false info. My apologies if that is the case.

If you dont mind my saying so: Each stance has its place, speaking from a Naginata perspective; waki can be used to draw your opponent into a false sense of distance and is suprisingly easy to turn into a good sayu (soku) men given the right timing. I have also used waki successfully in kendo gigeko (only the once however). I guess the only way to find out is to try out. Of course follow the instructions of your sempai if the use of such stances is forbidden in your dojo.

[Hyaku]

The main difference I find with modern hasso and the old is that the old still cuts directly to shomen. I don't know where this one two action of bringing the weapon behind the head came from for kendo kata. If you cut directly up and forward from hasso gamae it will still come into the centreline.

[Pan-Chan]

This is a little of the topic, but my sensei told me a little about when waki-gamae and hasso were used a lot, or more often then they are now. He was saying that people would go into waki-gamae, then reverse their right hand so that it pointed forward, and then do a doh strike, 'pulling it through the person's body' and going through like tobikomi-do. I found it very interesting, but that doh was apparently 'banned' as a legal strike a while ago. You can still fight from waki-gamae and hasso, though; just like the other three kamae.

There are also katsugi stikes that are kind of similar to hasso, but not exactly.

Anyways, I just thought I'd share this tid-bit of nifty kendo information.

[JoonShik]

i have seen hasso in action, it looked kool but not so great. The guy hit a really good men, but the shimpan didnt give it to him (he also fell, but that doesnt count). I have never seen waki at its works, I think its useless. If you wanna see the video, it is the clip of 51st All Japan Kendo Championship.
Here's the link:
http://kendoshop.com/etc-images/sample1.wmv

Note:
The hasso part is somwher in the middle.
There is also a part where there is Jodan in use.

[Charuzu]

[QUOTE=JoonShik]I have never seen waki at its works, I think its useless. /QUOTE]

O.o

Come on now! Waki is great! Ya just gotta know how to use it. If You ever take a form of kenjutsu you'll see that it is uber-useful, espacally when slashing upwards. Also, In kendo do you guys make a cutting motion while slashing???

[Pan-Chan]

Also, In kendo do you guys make a cutting motion while slashing???

What??? o.O

Maybe it's just me, but those two things, "cutting motion" and "slashing," sound very similar to me. Maybe you could elaborate a little more as to what you mean?

[Kenshi152]

I have also tried Hasso once during a private training with my friend. Firstly i really thought that scoring with it would be impossible. But then i tried a Men Kaeshi Do and it just worked great. I dont know which stance, waki or hasso, was the defensive stance but i think hasso has the advantage that you already have your sword a bit higher, but not too high as in jodan( just imagine men kaeshi do with jodan) , to conter or to attack.

[KenShi_JoB]

i have seen hasso in action, it looked kool but not so great. The guy hit a really good men, but the shimpan didnt give it to him (he also fell, but that doesnt count).

fell=no zanshin=no point.

That's not a good men, in my oppinion. I think the guy is a jodan player, that hasso is a part of his feinting.

[KenShi_JoB]

This is a little of the topic, but my sensei told me a little about when waki-gamae and hasso were used a lot, or more often then they are now. He was saying that people would go into waki-gamae, then reverse their right hand so that it pointed forward, and then do a doh strike, 'pulling it through the person's body' and going through like tobikomi-do. I found it very interesting, but that doh was apparently 'banned' as a legal strike a while ago. You can still fight from waki-gamae and hasso, though; just like the other three kamae.

I don't see what you describe have anything against the rule. Do you really sure it is banned?

[yut]

I read that hasso was more an observation stance, waki enables you to hide the length of your blade and execute directly an upward strike. Since the length of a shinai is the same for everybody it is not useful anymore.

[Charuzu]

What??? o.O

Maybe it's just me, but those two things, "cutting motion" and "slashing," sound very similar to me. Maybe you could elaborate a little more as to what you mean?

I just wrote "slashing" becuse if I said "cut" you might be a bit confused. I guess that I just confused you more, huh? I'm really sorry.
As for the "Cutting motion" when you are executing a strive do you push the shinai fowards or backwords? For example, when cutting steak (mmmm cow) you don't just bring the knife down but you make a cutting motion. Cuz, I'm curious how you kendoka do it.

Sory about confusing you, I really am.

[Valhalla_Knight]

When I post this thread, I thought noone would answer it... Guess I´m wrong.

Anyway... I was studyng it with a partner, and found out things you said in the thread:

1 Hasso
It is indeed for close spaces.
The way you hold the shinai/bokuto/katana is just like Jodan, but some centimetres down.
Small movements are better with it and so gaeshi waza.

2 Waki
I think the naginata stuff may be correct.
Have you ever seen "The seven Samurais" from Akira Kurosawa?
There is a part in which one of them uses waki against jodan and suceeds. He makes a sidestep to right followed by a men slash.
Also you can indeed change the position of your right hand.

Anyway I think there´s more to it. Any Ideas?

[Berugijin]

i have seen hasso in action, it looked kool but not so great. The guy hit a really good men, but the shimpan didnt give it to him (he also fell, but that doesnt count). I have never seen waki at its works, I think its useless. If you wanna see the video, it is the clip of 51st All Japan Kendo Championship.
Here's the link:
http://kendoshop.com/etc-images/sample1.wmv

Note:
The hasso part is somwher in the middle.
There is also a part where there is Jodan in use.

Does anyone know the soundtrack of that movie clip?

[Charuzu]

That video was really beautiful... Are their any more vids that are that great? The Soundtrack put it in the mood and I loved the way they ended it.
(=^o^=) I have to give them my best meow (=^o^=)

[nothing]

At SoCal's recent Mori Hai competition, I saw one advanced kenshi use Hasso. I thought it was really ijnteresting. He went back and forth between Chudan and Hasso. I don't recall if he scored any points from Hasso, but it got me thinking. I may ask my sensei if I can try hasso out during practice... hhmmmmmmmmm

[tango]

i've never seen anyone attempt waki kamae outside of kata.

..the closest thing to hasso i've seen is, as previously mentioned, katsugi waza. i use it on occasion and have found it to be an effective type of feint prior to immediately striking... it is met with various degrees of success, depending on the level of the motodachi.

[Neil Gendzwill]

..the closest thing to hasso i've seen is, as previously mentioned, katsugi waza.Some jodan specialists will take it as a transition kamae. If they are too close to move safely into jodan, they'll take hasso and then move to jodan when the maai opens up.

[Hisham]

Since nobody mentioned it, i was told by my teacher that Hasso no kamae was used instead of jodan because of the fact that it wasn't practical when wearing a helmet.

[tango]

Some jodan specialists will take it as a transition kamae. If they are too close to move safely into jodan, they'll take hasso and then move to jodan when the maai opens up.

yeah, good point.. that didn't immediately come to mind..

[kuzu70]

At SoCal's recent Mori Hai competition, I saw one advanced kenshi use Hasso. I thought it was really ijnteresting. He went back and forth between Chudan and Hasso. I don't recall if he scored any points from Hasso, but it got me thinking. I may ask my sensei if I can try hasso out during practice... hhmmmmmmmmm

That is Yamasaki sensei from PCI (Pasadena).

[nothing]

That is Yamasaki sensei from PCI (Pasadena).

Thanks very much! you beat me too it. Someone from my dojo (we have a messageboard called www.learnkendo.com) mentioned that it was Yamasaki Sensei....

[GoldenShinai]

I've never been in a situation where Waki is useful, and Hasso can be used to scare the shit out of peole.

[Nokori 3byo]

The main difference I find with modern hasso and the old is that the old still cuts directly to shomen. I don't know where this one two action of bringing the weapon behind the head came from for kendo kata. If you cut directly up and forward from hasso gamae it will still come into the centreline.

When you say "modern hasso" are you talking about hasso as used kendo as opposed to koryu kenjutsu? And how would either of these compare to the hasso encountered in 5homne of the iai seitei gata?

[Fonsz]

Just watched the video that was posted in this thread. The part mentioned about Hasso looks like katsugi to me instead of what I have in mind as Hasso no Kamae.

[JSchmidt]

Just watched the video that was posted in this thread. The part mentioned about Hasso looks like katsugi to me instead of what I have in mind as Hasso no Kamae.

Looks more like a jodan player caught playing inbetween...

[rfoxmich]

Do you want to succeed because your aite does not know what you're
doing or do you want to succeed because >you< know what you're doing.
At a low level sometimes 'whacky' stuff works. It's a bit different at a higher level.
Me...I figure reliably getting men out of chudan is probably a life long study.
I also figure that 'playing' at some of the other kamae may hide from me whether I'm truly making progress or just 'tricking' people.

[Usagi San]

I use Chudan a lot. I like it. I Also use Jodan sometimes (useful) and Gedan very often (also useful).

I'm not concerned about the "waki-hasso stuff", just dont understand: how do you use gedan kamae again??? And how is it "useful". Gedan kamae? Are we talking shiai here?

Sorry, don't mean to be rude, I just don't get it.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Full gedan like in kata doesn't work very well, too slow to get back up to the targets. But you'll sometimes see people playing a partial gedan where the tip is below horizontal. They're hoping you'll try kote as it looks open, but if you do they'll hit you suriagi-men. Instead, just hit men, they don't really have a good defence there - maybe they might get up in time to stop you with tsuki on the mune.

[kendosensei]

I disagree about hasso no kamae not being useful in kendo. I started using hasso no kamae about 2 years ago and it has helped my kendo. Since it's a form of jodan, I can do the same types of strikes. It has helped me better my attacks, for when I'm in chudan I tend to be more defensive. What is nice about hasso is that not many kenshi use it so when they see it they're not sure what to do. I have developed many moves from the hasso position.

[nothing]

not many kenshi use it so when they see it they're not sure what to do.

I thought that this may be helpful for that reason.. Like a hockey player facing a left handed (full right) goalie for the first time...

[Rookie M]

I have played with Hasso in private practices and found that it worked quite well at disorienting my partner by confusing the correct cutting distance and that centred men cuts where not too difficult, snapping the left hand forward produced what seemed like a reasonable "Small men cut" as for weither this would score in Shiai i have no idea.
I have on one occassion successfully used Gedan (And running away waza:wink: )to lure a confident opponent into over extending and becoming off balance which i was then able to exploit.

If anyone has anymore info on usage or training with alternate kamae i would be very greatful to hear it.

(I can feel one of Jacobs lessons in Jodan begining to rattle round my head:happy: )

[kendosensei]

I have used the hasso kamae for about 2 years now. It has helped me in being more aggressive when sparring.

[Rookie M]

Ah! Interesting.

Can you explain about a few things for me.

1, Does the footwork and fumikomi work in the same way as hidari jodan, or do you switch to the right foot forward during the cut and for fumikomi?

2, Do you move through jodan during the cut or cut straight from hasso?

3, What are the mechanics for cutting to the left side of your opponent, Kote, Do etc.?

4, I am often told that hasso is not so good as it opens you up for Do, men and hidari kote. Do you find this is the case if so what would you do to counter this?

Also when in hasso is it possible for your opponent to cut your kote (When it's up by your shoulder?)

Sorry for all the questions.

Thank you

[ScottUK]

I have regularly been accused of being ignorant (mostly by my wife), but I fail to see the usefulness of gedan in kendo. Can anyone explain this to me? - preferably with easy-to-follow-diagrams for the kamae-challenged amongst us... :)

After someone has done this, maybe do the same for wakigamae? Cheers.

[JSchmidt]

Gedan serves as tool for luring in people to cutting. Hasso is mostly useless and Wakigamae completly useless.
With hasso you get all the negative sides of jodan (plus your men is open) and very few of the positives. Yes, it can be used, but once the surprise factor is over (which happens frightfully quickly) you got little else left, IMO.

Jakob

[ScottUK]

Hehe, I give my sensei 1/2 inch of opening and he destroys me, let alone gedan.

Cheers for the reply anyway... :)

[Neil Gendzwill]

They are all (hasso, waki, gedan) kamae for use with real swords.

[Kishi]

A quick, reply to the mention of Kurosawas Seven Samurai, that fight scene is beautiful. It start's in a very kendo-eque fashion with the two men seeing who's skill is better with bamboo sticks, then what seems like a tie and one man squabbling over it, and ending up getting killed after challenging his opponent to a real duel. Makes me wish Waki wasn't so useless in modern Kendo.

[nothing]

I got to see Yamasaki Sensei fighting in Hasso again this weekend at North South. It seemed to disorient his opponents. But in his second individual match, his opponent seemed really comfortable in facing Hasso. He was ablet to force Yamasaki Sensei close to the out of bounds line and in close. Yamasaki Sensei needed to step back into Chudan to creat the proper distance then move up to Hasso, but the opponent used the maai to his advantage. As Yamasaki was close to the line, he could not move into position and became a bit defensive, which allowed his opponent to stay ont he offensive..

it was really interestign to watch.

[JoonShik]

I got to see Yamasaki Sensei fighting in Hasso again this weekend at North South. It seemed to disorient his opponents. But in his second individual match, his opponent seemed really comfortable in facing Hasso. He was ablet to force Yamasaki Sensei close to the out of bounds line and in close. Yamasaki Sensei needed to step back into Chudan to creat the proper distance then move up to Hasso, but the opponent used the maai to his advantage. As Yamasaki was close to the line, he could not move into position and became a bit defensive, which allowed his opponent to stay ont he offensive..

it was really interestign to watch.
haha, I was there too. It was pretty kool to see it, and pretty funny for the opponent. His opponent (sensei of the dojo) and the rest of that dojo left after he lost. So during the awards presentation, when they called for Remenant dojang (dojo), nobody showed up.

I got a question regarding Yamasaki Senseis hasso. How come people went to the chudan for jodan, when he uses hasso to his right shoulder, your left kote?

[kendosensei]

I got to see Yamasaki Sensei fighting in Hasso again this weekend at North South. It seemed to disorient his opponents. But in his second individual match, his opponent seemed really comfortable in facing Hasso. He was ablet to force Yamasaki Sensei close to the out of bounds line and in close. Yamasaki Sensei needed to step back into Chudan to creat the proper distance then move up to Hasso, but the opponent used the maai to his advantage. As Yamasaki was close to the line, he could not move into position and became a bit defensive, which allowed his opponent to stay ont he offensive..

it was really interestign to watch.

did the opponent score a point? i think the referees have a difficult time judging a person in hasso as well.

[nothing]

did the opponent score a point? i think the referees have a difficult time judging a person in hasso as well.

Yamasaki Sensei won his first match, but I think lost the second, and yes points were scored. I do not recall for sure. Yamasaki Sensei is a tall man with long arms. He plays hasso quite well... and yes, he does shift his hands from left to right from time to time. he looks quite comfortable.

Joonshik, I have a bunch of SJ kenshi at my dojo, infact Mimi Hayashi fought for the SJ dojo and not us.. not sure if you know any of my dojo mates..

[T.Lee]

hee hee... i know the secret.....

*wink* @ kendosensei

[Genya]

I heard that someone tried wakigamae in shiai once. He (or she) tried to hit do, but it didn´t work. Hasso-no kamae may work sometimes but I wouldn´t use it too much. I think chudan and jodan (and maybe nito) are the only effective kamaes. In some situations gedan.

[JoonShik]

Yamasaki Sensei won his first match, but I think lost the second, and yes points were scored. I do not recall for sure. Yamasaki Sensei is a tall man with long arms. He plays hasso quite well... and yes, he does shift his hands from left to right from time to time. he looks quite comfortable.

Joonshik, I have a bunch of SJ kenshi at my dojo, infact Mimi Hayashi fought for the SJ dojo and not us.. not sure if you know any of my dojo mates..
I probably dont unless I knew them personally.

[h2o]

There was a really funny video showing exactly why waki is not a good choice of kamae floating around on KWF a few moths back. It's named "kendowned" or something similar. It's hillarious :)
I guess I'll just stick with chudan for a while, and perhaps start playing with jodan every now and then. I mean, I get all the cute and cool kamae in kendokata and iaido anyway, so I'm not really at any loss :D

[JoonShik]

There was a really funny video showing exactly why waki is not a good choice of kamae floating around on KWF a few moths back. It's named "kendowned" or something similar. It's hillarious :)
I guess I'll just stick with chudan for a while, and perhaps start playing with jodan every now and then. I mean, I get all the cute and cool kamae in kendokata and iaido anyway, so I'm not really at any loss :D
I remember that video. That guy was a complete noob. It was hella funny though. Wonder if someone has the link to it right now...:smiley:

[Theodore]

I got to see Yamasaki Sensei fighting in Hasso again this weekend at North South. It seemed to disorient his opponents. But in his second individual match, his opponent seemed really comfortable in facing Hasso. He was ablet to force Yamasaki Sensei close to the out of bounds line and in close. Yamasaki Sensei needed to step back into Chudan to creat the proper distance then move up to Hasso, but the opponent used the maai to his advantage. As Yamasaki was close to the line, he could not move into position and became a bit defensive, which allowed his opponent to stay ont he offensive..

it was really interestign to watch.

I've seen Mizobe-sensei use hasso no kamae sucessfully. He says that for folks that take their ma-ai from the position of the shinais in chudan that it messes up their ma-ai by him playing from this posture. Against kenshi who take their ma-ai from the relative position of your opponent he says it is less helpful.

[h2o]

I remember that video. That guy was a complete noob. It was hella funny though. Wonder if someone has the link to it right now...:smiley:
I saved it to my harddrive. :)

[ne0r]

Hey, has someone a link or a downloadable link to the 51st AJKF ?
Thankies

[egtirello]

I saved it to my harddrive. :)
can you share it again please ? thanks.
as for hasso, can it be used against jodan? as a probably more defensive position than chudan since your shinai is up,
any thougs of it ?

[h2o]

can you share it again please ? thanks.
as for hasso, can it be used against jodan? as a probably more defensive position than chudan since your shinai is up,
any thougs of it ? Sure. Just contact me in whatever Instant-messaging protocol we have in common, and it shouldn't be any problems. Just look at my member profile and choose one :)
It might be on my second computer, so I can't guarantee that I can give it to you right away though.

[Genya]

I have played against hasso few times. None of the opponents had no real experience about it so it wasn´t difficult at all. Both kotes are very good targets against hasso.