That's Bloody It! Totally emotional rant!

[Alex]

This is a message I received a certain individual C******* in regards to some comments made about Japanese people. I reprimanded that individual for being borderline racist when they said they wouldn't waste their time trying to have conversations with Japanese people as it was a pointless exercise. We consider racism and sexism unacceptable on these forums. I am so livid about the content of the personal mail to me, that I decided to publicise it (without mentioning any names of course.)

Here we go...

"Alex,
Maybe it seems that way to you, but I am only speaking from my experience. Your experience as a white male, with an obvious blinder problem about the culture, is most likely different. If you knew what goes on outside of universities, perhaps you might think a bit differently."

Let me see... In my 14 years in Japan I have been a Japanese high school student (1 year), worked in a Tokyo company selling books (1 year), worked in a fruit and vegetable shop in Kochi (1 year) , worked in a kindergarten (3 months), worked at the All Japan Naginata Federation (1 year), work for a TV station as a director (2 years), work as a DJ for a radio station (5 years), work as a lecturer at 3 different universities (5 years), work for the Nippon Budokan as a translator (6 years), did my masters and a PhD at a Japanese university, and then there is my main job which I started last year working as a sociologist at the International Research Center for Japanese Studies looking into the many problems facing Japanese society. I am also training my butt off almost every day in 3 budo arts, and I have also been politically involved in environmental and racial issues in Japan, and am often called upon to give speeches and write articles (mainly in Japanese and often scathing) which offer an outside view of both the good and the bad sides of Japan.

Being a white male has it's benefits and disadvantages. I have suffered many forms of racism in the past, and still do in my everyday life here. On the other hand, despite the frustration I use my 'differentness' to my advantage, and make the most of the few opportunities that are thrown my way. For me, living in Japan is a Love Hate, Sink or Swim relationship.

The one thing I DO NOT bloody suffer from is a "Blinder problem"!!!

" I am not questioning your right to get angry or to call me a racist, I am questioning your ability to see things clearly."

Who the hell are you to question my ability to see things clearly?!

"I have no need to justify my comments. They are based on experience. When I came here, I was very willing to accept everything I was told. Unfortunately, people lied to me, manipulated me and used me as a pawn in office politics."

Welcome to the real world. Do you mean to tell me that people don't get used, manipulated, or lied to in your country of birth? Wow. Maybe you should bloody well go home then!

"Outside my job, I've met many genuinely good people, however, it is my firm belief that Japanese working culture brings out the very worst in people. Also, it is useless to argue with Japanese people, as you should know by now. The concept of a rational debate does not exist in this culture. if you don't know that, you haven't been paying attention."

Here we go again! Well, of the many tens of thousands of Japanese people I have met in my time here, I've been able to have some unbelievably enlightening conversations. Maybe that has something to do with the fact that I made every effort to be able to converse with them in their own language without compromise. I doubt very much whether you are able to do that yet. The concept of rational debate does exist in this culture. You just don't know how to do it. If you were rational, you wouldn't categorise all Japanese the way you have just done. And, as for the Japanese work culture... I wonder how long and where you have worked in Japan. Let me guess...You're an English teacher right? Well, that's really representative of Japanese working culture!

I think I've been paying attention. However, the last thing I need is a self-centered racist moron telling me otherwise. Go away!

Well, that feels better. Had to get that off my chest. Japan can be a very stressful place sometimes.:cyclops:

[munenmuso]

Hmmnnnnn....

I wonder? Nah.

[munenmuso]

BTW, Dr A.

What happened to the forum? Database has been down for quite sometimes.

Irony is sometimes hardcore. On the same land,you breathe the same air, drink the same water and yet different views. But views sometimes are dissenting and biased but nevertheless shouldn't embrace bigotry and racial tensions and differences.

Just a piece of my thought...

:)

munenmuso

[Alex]

Good call. Totally agree.

Any way, we had problems with our server, and they kept telling us it was fixed. Well, it wasn't. Hamish the Technocrat is back in NZ at the moment showing some customers around the country. He usually deals with any computer problems, but he couldn't find a connection on the Fox Glacier... Glad to be back in business.:cool:

[KhawMengLee]

Well, at least the forum is back up and running...

Incidentally, I was just reading Liam Keeley's interview with Nitta SuzuyoZ(Head of the Toda-Ha Buko-Ryu) in Keiko Shokon(Diane Skoss). There was a part where she was asked about students she has given teaching licenses to and there were quite a number of foreigners.

When asked to comment on this she said:


I never thought of my students in terms of Japanese and non-Japanese, but rather as individuals. What is Japanese? I don't even know how Japanese I am. There are plenty of typically Japanese dishes that I don't particularly care for, but on the other hand, when I went to Denmark to visit my daughter, I thoroughly enjoyed myself. I ate everything and certainly didn't have a problem with the food there. Lets say a foreigner comes to my dojo. Presumably they are there because they have an interest in koryu. There are plenty of Japanese who have no interest in koryu at all. I feel I have been very fortunate, to have been surrounded by so many people who share a common interest with me.

Nice.

By the way has anyone met her before? Or Mr Liam Keeley?

MENG

[Alex]

Yeah!

She is one of the nicest people you could ever hope to meet.
Liam is one of the ugliest :D
Just kidding. Liam is one of the main western authorities on Japanese budo. He hails from South Africa, lived in Japan for many years until recently, and has since moved to Australia. Scholar and a gentleman!

[KhawMengLee]

Cool! I hope to have the opportunity to meet her and train one day. My job will place me in Hong Kong after my stint in Bath so in the years I am there I will try to sneak off to japan as much as possible...;)

Also this gives me the opportunity to do the Ronin thing and train all over the world...heh.

BTW, Alex did you meet Chris Wong and E. Chua (both from Malaysia at the last WKC or was it the 49th AJKC?

Are you going to Glascow for this years WKC? Well, hope to see you there!

CHEERS
MENG

[Alex]

Will be in Glasgow for the champs.

These two people you mentioned certainly sound familiar. I was very good friends with Desiree Lim, but I have no idea where she is now. I think she went to Canada. Do you know her?

[KhawMengLee]

Nope, doesn't ring a bell.

Chris and Chua are both from Malaysia. Chua is one of the head instructors over here(yondan) and Chris just got his sandan. Chris was also on the Malaysian team at the last WKC. If I remember correctly they met someone from the KW team who was handing out issues of KW #1. Chua got one but Chris missed out(so I think it was at the 49th AJKC).

hmnnn, Desiree Lim, is she Malaysian? Does she wear a white bogu? I'll check at the next training.

MENG

[AlexM]

Someone try to pin down Alex (not me you idiots the other one!) so we can inject a little morphine.

Don't worry, this won't hurt at bit.......

:D

[James]

Originally posted by Alex
Yeah!

She is one of the nicest people you could ever hope to meet.
...

I'm sorry but somewhere this thread got sidetracked into being nice about people, can we get back to kicking someone's...er back on topic please.

Alex, I am guessing (let's call her) that person has not had a quarter of the life experience that most people on this forum have either in her own country or Japan and yet believes the universe revolves around her limited, and it seems one-dimensional, experiences. (Of course in an ontological sense that may be true, but let's not go there).

Most budo people know many foreigners who are having a rich and enjoyable life in Japan, and then again, the bitter ones who after two years are not where they thought they would be. Some how that is never their fault - it is always the whole nation that is wrong.
These are the ones that failed to 'pay attention', and therefore to adapt, having naive expectations doesn't help.

I think this sentence is at the crux of things:


"I have no need to justify my comments. They are based on experience. When I came here, I was very willing to accept everything I was told. Unfortunately, people lied to me, manipulated me and used me as a pawn in office politics."
...

"I have no need to justify my comments. They are based on experience. " ahh ..the solipsistic approach. Well most people would expect you to justify your comments if you expect to be taken seriously.

"willing to accept everything I was told" in what country does that work? And do they have a budget airflight. (Not sure if if I should go because it is a nice country or if I should go to clean those suckers out).

I think if someone received 'many' regular comments, on her sweeping (racist or not) statements , and yet believes that all those people are wrong and unreasonable, just because they haven't had the exact same life experiences that she has (bad things don't happen to others right?) then obviously that person is 'not paying attention' and has a 'blinder' whatever that is.

I am hoping that this person can manage to grow and adapt, who knows maybe this forum will contribute to that (not any time soon obvioulsy - but by a slow ansd relentless erosion) but first she will have to stop believing that her 'life experience' is the sum total of human knowledge, and that every smiling face in Japan she sees is not because that person is stupid, but just maybe they are having a good day.

Anyway here is a zen koan in the first step towards that persons enlightenment, it is made of two sentences from the same person,
meditate on this:

"I have no need to justify my comments. "
"The concept of a rational debate does not exist in this culture"

j

[KhawMengLee]

Yes, its getting sidetracked but I though that there was enough bashing on the lass.

I'm not supporting what she said but we all don't need a witch hunt here. Alex has made his point and it pretty much nipped (no racist pun intended) this one the bud...the rest of us commenting/adding on how "bad" etc it is...well, it's sorta like kicking someone who is down.

I think we should move on to the next topic, eh?

[Gorget-the-Frog]

I really only have to add that, if the person is whom I'm thinking of, their poor behavior seems pervasive and it may be easier to ban them. You’ll never change someone who doesn’t want to be changed.

[Tato]

I don't agree. There are no reason to ban someone even if we dislike what they say, in fact the only way that people have to influence and change behavior on other people is this one.

I don't like racism (being myself a mixture of nationalities) but if you ban people who use those arguments, and without answers like the one that Alex post here, how do you expect to help them to evolve?

Besides, I belive that in this particular case the attitude is the result of very bad experiences. That's not an excuse, but it's something I can understand.

Rei

[munenmuso]

Yeah, we shoudln't ban people. though we might not disagree with certain points, those kind of opinion were not spontaneous nor products of her wild imaginations, they're called personal experiences. It's not mere racism, i think it's also called grievances. We must also listen.

I may not agree sometimes but the freedom of expression is always a standard. Otherwise......

[Paburo]

i don't think it was a wise thing to do to make public an argument that was supposed to be personal.

wether we agree with one part or the other, or just stay neutral, we should rather discuss on what is already posted on the forums and not bring personal stuff here(unless both parts agree, of course).

my ni-en.

[ben]

Getting back off-topic... Meng I just happened to be reading Keiko Shokon myself at the mo, lent to me by Mr Keeley himself. Haven't got to that interview yet. He wrote a great essay on Tatsumi-ryu in vol.1 I think it was, if you ever get your hands on it. (Funny bunch those Hoplites. I'm sure they must have a secret handshake ;))

b

[KhawMengLee]

Getting back off-topic... Meng I just happened to be reading Keiko Shokon myself at the mo, lent to me by Mr Keeley himself.

:( LUCKY! I got to get myself over to Melbourne to train one day! Maybe during the cup, eh?;)

Ooo! A couple of my mates should be training at your dojo soon. They would be coming in with Wy Ching.

p.s. enjoy the article is really good. I was surprised at some of the questions, especially the ones about how she felt about Japan losing the war...

PEACE,
MENG

[James]

Originally posted by munenmuso
Yeah, we shoudln't ban people. though we might not disagree with certain points, those kind of opinion were not spontaneous nor products of her wild imaginations, they're called personal experiences. It's not mere racism, i think it's also called grievances. We must also listen.
..

I am not for banning people either.
The difficulties of working in Japan for foreigners are well known, and the tiniest bit of research would reveal that working as an English teacher is often considered not a real job by many in Japan. There are enough Jet diaries of woe on the web about that. Working for a year in a fruit and veg shop like Alex would probably give a much more rounded view of Japanse working life.
I don't doubt that persons sincerity or grievances (just ability to structure arguments in a positive way).
I would suggest Dr.A is right considering certain sweeping statements can be considered (mere?) racism', as well as being just silly.
try this:
"it is useless to argue with Black people, as you should know by now. The concept of a rational debate does not exist in this culture."

I am not for bashing people for the sake of it either, but refuting things we don't agree with, is not a negative thing.
Let's assume some Japanese people read this forum,

j

[Kendoboy]

I don't know a lot about japan, or the japanese, but I do know that there are very deep rooted cultural beliefs and traditions that must be respected. You can't just walk around Japan like it's Anytown North America. It won't work. You can't argue with someone and say things that to you might be only "rational discussion" when in their mind, you have dishonoured them. Things in Japan (and any other culture system different from your own) must be approached delicately, especially if you are a foreigner.

[Confound]

Righteous indignation strikes again.

That aside, I spent some time looking through books, being somewhat literate in the field of sociology and anthropology (it was my major after all), and have yet to find any book that recommends rhetoric, structured debate or rational argument as the preferred method, or even a good method, of conflict resolution when dealing with individuals raised in Japanese culture.

As for all the personal comments, my life outside work gives me no reason to complain. I detest my job, and the working culture of civil servants. Having entertained a delusion that I would be working with at least a few people who wanted to teach, it was hard to give it up upon realizing the reality that my co-workers weren't teachers, but people who had aimed for a steady, reliable job working for the government.

As to not justifying my comments: An old man once told me, "Never get into an argument with people who are already confused by the facts. No amount of rhetoric can change their minds."

c

[titus]

First of all, I think it probably isn't such a good idea to post private messages in public. At least, it should have not mentioned the name at all, even the first letter makes it fairly easy to guess who it was...

However, I'm curious why this person lived in Japan for 15 years if they hate it so much?

My ex-girlfriend, an expat, worked in Japan as a model while continuing her Masters in Sociology through distance education. She got harassed constantly by leering, nasty men, on the job and in the streets, restaraunts, everywhere. Furthermore, nobobdy ever respected her education or knowlege in conversation because she was just a girl, and a good-looking one at that. But she spent three years there without ever becoming bitter. She can now speak fluent Japanese and simply laughs about the many bad experiences she suffered working in Tokyo.

It's sad when people get jaded instead of focussing on the good aspects of life. I met many similiar jaded people in Hong Kong, who were mad because things weren't exactly like back at home in the US or UK. On the outside they say they can accept other cultures, but then freak out when they can't act "naturally," as if there's such a thing considering the relativity of what is normal behaviour around the world.

[Confound]

I haven't lived here 15 years. In truth, I detest my job, not Japan in general. With a different job, one that suits my skills a bit better, and where my co-workers aren't already predisposed to view me as deadwood (thanks to others who have occupied similar positions), life wouldn't be so bad over here. I rather like living here, but the frustrations of this particular position tend to cast a shadow over everything else.

Also, sometimes I do get tired of hearing some very one-sided accounts about life here, and that makes me lose my temper. Besides, someone has to present an alternative point of view.

As for being jaded, don't over-estimate the experience. I've always been bitter and jaded, it's not a character flaw, it's a personality trait, really.

c

[JSchmidt]

Hehe...always someone elses fault, eh?

[Alex]

Good God! I'd completely forgotten this thread even existed.

Hey Titus! No names were ever mentioned. You must be a really good guesser to get that one.

"That aside, I spent some time looking through books, being somewhat literate in the field of sociology and anthropology (it was my major after all), and have yet to find any book that recommends rhetoric, structured debate or rational argument as the preferred method, or even a good method, of conflict resolution when dealing with individuals raised in Japanese culture. "

Same old same old. I wonder...Have you read any JAPANESE books on the subject? After all, we are taking about Japan, right?

Oh mighty social anthropological authority! You are starting to wreak of ehno-centrism...again. I see you avoid saying 'Japanese people' directly so as not to get accused of racism, again. Individuals "raised" in Japanese culture. Is that also a dig at people who might not be "Japanese" by birth, but have spent a fair bit of time over here?

Keep on digging that big hole whoever you are.

[titus]

Alex: I just meant you shouldn't even put the first letter of the person's name. Nothing personal, just good behaviour.


To everyone reading this thread: I would like to vote that we all end this debate now, it's getting a bit too personal. Perhaps everyone should agree to disagree?

[alexpollijr]

This thread was dead until you woke it from the nether realms.
Isn't that... necromancy ? Nevermind.

[Confound]

Alex,

It isn't ethnocentrism. If you'd like to have an academic discussion, then we can, unfortunately, it would seem that you're more interested in mud-slinging.

I used the terms generally used in my field. Would you call everyone in this profession ethnocentric? I stand by my assertion that structured rhetoric is not part of Japanese culture. In societies that value rhetoric, the legal profession has a relatively high status. (Though one may argue that in North America, everyone 'hates lawyers', they receive high wages for their work, and judges are highly respected.)

However, you didn't ask me for an explanation, you asked me to prove that I'm a racist. Since I'm not a racist, I can't oblige you. Pardon me for being so disappointing.

Re: names, since I always sign everything with c, or my first initial, it's rather obvious. If that had bothered me, I would have said something. Imprudence and poor judgement aren't things for which I could fault someone, as my temper makes me rather judgementally challenged at times.

I admitted in a small way that I do get too passionate at times, and really, what more can you expect? I'm not a racist. Again, do forgive me for not giving you someone to dump your venom on. However, if you're still venomous, I'm willing to take responsibility.

c

[Lockie Jackson]

I too thought this thread was dead and buried. But I think a few people are arguing cross-purposes, so to speak. Lets get real.
Everyone has the right to their own opinion.
Whether or not the original post should have been put in the public domain may be open for debate for some, and sure, we don't need a witch hunt.
But fair is fair. If you bark, you might just get bitten. Run a quick search through the forums, most would agree, someone is fair game.
You can take it from me. Alex does not suffer from a blinder problem. Period. I have had infinite discussions after work or training with him about many of the social, cultural and economic 'challenges' facing Japan. Regarding Confound's comment (presumably in reference to Alex) that one should "never get into an arguement with people who are already confused to the facts" and "I do get sick of hearing one sided accounts about Japan" absolutely priceless. And that is being polite. Never the less, I respect everyone's right to have their own opinion. (cotinued)

[Lockie Jackson]

(continued)
However, when someone makes coments like:
"I have tolerence for the girls in my club because their culture teaches them they have to be incompetent and stupid, it isn't their fault when they can't do something right after 50 tries."
I'm downright amazed.
As someone married to a Japanese with two children (both growing up in Japan, one of whom is a female), I find such comments lacking in tact at best, if not downright offensive.
"Can't do something right after 50 tries..." Yeah right. Have you ever seen a representitive sample of women's kendo in Japan? Try checking out the Otsu Cup this year in Okayama. My bet is, even you might be pleasantly surprised!
My advice is as follows: next time you feel the urge to spark up the forum with some learned sociological gem, think twice or don't be surprised when you have it thrown back.
Kendo starts with rei and ends with rei, and I for one am not going to presume the right to tell people what they can and can't think or say. But common sense would dictate that, to use another budo analogy, if you draw your sword, you might just get cut down.

[Alex]

I am not into mud slinging, I just don't respect people who make assertions that are groundless, and extremely offensive. (See Lockie above).

You still haven't answered a simple question. How many books have you read on the topic or related to the topic in Japanese?

Simple. How many?

If you are going to make assertions about Japan, don't you think it would be wise to invesitage primary sources, or at least some recognised secondary sources in the language of the country YOU are SLINGING MUD AT?

Here's a list of simple books to get you started. When you've finished reading them I'd be interested to hear your comments:

�CŽ«Šw‚ÌŽj“IŒ¤‹† / Œ´Žq˜N’˜ . -- ‘�ˆî“c‘åŠw�o”Å•”, 1994


‹ß‘ã“ú–{�CŽ«ŠwŽj : �¼—m�CŽ«Šw‚Ì“±“ü‚©‚ç�Á�Ü‚Ü‚Å / ‘¬�…”ŽŽi’˜ . -- —L•ü“°, 1988


�w�CŽ«‹y‰Ø•¶�x‚ÌŒ¤‹† / �›’JœA”ü’˜ . -- ‹³ˆç�o”ŃZƒ“ƒ^�[, 1978. -- (Œ¤‹†‘I�‘ ; 20)


–¾Ž¡‘O’†Šú‚É‚¨‚¯‚é“ú–{“IƒŒƒgƒŠƒbƒN‚Ì“WŠJ‰ß’ö‚ÉŠÖ‚· ‚錤‹† / —L‘ò�r‘¾˜Y’˜ . -- •—ŠÔ�‘–[, 1998


•¨�s‚µ : “ú–{“IƒŒƒgƒŠƒbƒN‚Ì“`“� / ƒWƒƒƒNƒŠ�[ƒk�EƒsƒWƒ‡�[’˜ ; Ž›“c�Ÿ�], •Ÿˆä�Ÿ–ó . -- •½–}ŽÐ, 1997. -- (ƒtƒ‰ƒ“ƒX�EƒWƒƒƒ|ƒmƒ�ƒW�[‘p�‘)


‚±‚Ƃ΂Æ�g‘Ì / “òƒ–�è•j’˜ . -- ™¤‘��‘–[, 1990

Until then, please please go away.

[smith]

I agree with Titus and Paburo, this "discussion" should not be a public one, and it certainly should not be being continued in public by one of the forum's moderators.

The identities of both sides of the argument are now very clear. There is no reason why this argument cannot be continued in PM.

There are far greater problems in the world deserving our passion and anger than this.

Please both of you just let it go.

[Confound]

So there are people writing about rhetoric, but we still haven't clarified what rhetoric we're talking about here. Also, you need to recognize that there is a distinct difference between what is common in academic culture and what is common among everyday people.

Use common sense. Not everyone in the world is highly educated. Not everyone is an academic. I am willing to agree that within the confines of the academic world there are no doubt scores of individuals who are inclined to use rhetoric, and are able to resolve conflict by debate or argument. However, it is not the general method of conflict resolution in this country.

c

[Alex]

Smith,

you're absolutely right. It's all really quite pointless.

However, the whole point was to show that healthy debate about issues is encouraged in these forums (remember this is general chat and any topic goes in this section) -Racism and the like is not going to be tolerated. End of story. No more. Finish.

[alexpollijr]

Die thread, die.

[hamish]

RIP