Knees

[Old Warrior]

About a year ago I tore just about everything in my left knee (acl, mcl and meniscus). They were partial tears that healed well. As a matter of fact the injury was one of the reasons that caused me to take up Kumdo and limit my Epee Fencing. The erect posture and stance is far less destructive than the convoluted and awkward European "on guard" stance and the torque on the left knee from a lunge is incredibly hard on the joint.

My question has to do with when one should "train through the pain" or when is it time to rest. I recognize that matters of health are best left to the doctors, but, I think everyone knows what I am pondering. I am feeling a little pressure and some slight swelling in my knee. Do I stop all training because it could get worse. Or, do I show up for class, let the Master know I have a slight limitation, and then try my best?

I hate missing class. I hate giving in to minor pain. I'm not a kid anymore (54) and I cannot let every ache and pain limit my life. I understand I'm not training for the next AJKF finals, but I like my unimportant life and I hate surrenderring to my limitations.

[Neil Gendzwill]

These are questions really best answered by a doctor, preferably a sports med specialist. Joe Family Doc is always going to say "stop doing that". But if you decide to continue, by all means tell your instructors that you need your practice modified. Ask about using anti-inflammatories like ibuprofen as a course of medicine. I was advised to take a bunch of ibuprofen daily for 2 weeks for soft tissue damage in my hand and it worked. Turns out the dosage a large adult can take is triple or more the recommended dosage on the instructions - again, consult your doc about this.

[Jerry Wellbrock]

This is an old man talking to an "Old Warrior". The old saying "No Pain No Gain" is not in vogue any more. I have lived through the old days of training through all sorts of pain and most of my friends who did this no longer train any more at all. Listen to Neil's advice and seek a consultation with a Sports Medicine Specialist. If you are lucky find a specialist who does some form of martial arts so he/she understands where you are coming from and what you want to do. Only you know your body and the difference between, real pain from injury or the "pain" of just a hard workout. Training with pain from an injury is no good at all. There are some newer anti-inflammatory medications that may be helpful such as Vioxx or Celebrex but these need to be prescribed by a medical doctor. Swelling after training can sometimes be limited by using ice after training. But again your best bet is to seek medical advice. If you don't like what you hear there is certainly nothing wrong with a second opinion, but be prepared to hear that rest may be what the doctor orders. Good Luck. Jerry

PS. Just getting over tendonitis and bursitis and seven weeks of none to limited training. Left Knee.:old_man:

[Old Warrior]

Thanks for the good thoughts.

So, here I sit, knowing class is in session, with an ice pack on my knee hoping to end the swelling and eliminate the pain behind my knee, by Thursday. But for the fact I'm still sore from two hours of shoveling, I probably would have gone.

I did my time with bursitis two years ago when I could barely raise a coffee cup. A couple of deep cortisone shots cleared that one up.

My personal problem is the wussy factor. I've never been one and I don't want to start now. On the other hand, I can deal with a couple of days off, the thought of weeks and months and knee surgery is another matter. I'm not up for that.

[nodachi]

Just remember that Kendo is a life long activity. Missing a practice every now and then won't ruin you because you have a long time of practices left. Better to rest it up every now and then rather than ruin it and have to stop Kendo altogether.

[Marine_Boy]

Although I am still young and most things heal up pretty quickly, about 9 months back I sustained a minor chronic injury to my right elbow. This was caused by a few over zealous Jujutsuka wanting to demonstrate their power over aikido during a weekend course. At first I had thought nothing of it, but after a couple of months I found that the movement in that elbow had reduced and to the point that strikes, punches and even kesagiri (from kenjutsu) was painful.

In the end I had to pull back from one training session a week and had to see an osteopath. Incidently, my osteopath was both an aikidoka and contempory dancer so he knew exactly how to treat me. I consider that quite lucky!

But in your case I'm not sure how long you've had the bad knees and it if is quite a long time, it could be chronic:(

In anycase everyone's advice is sound.

Stan

[PhilMcLaughlin]

Hi all

Be careful about excess Ibuprofen if you are (or may be) asthmatic as this is a known trigger !

I have found glucosamine and chondroitin supplements useful to aid soft tissue wear and tear in kendo, apparently cod liver oil works as well

apart from that hot and cold, rest and massage might help

Also strength training of your legs in the gym (under direction) could help as stronger leg muscles absorb some of the stresses

hope this helps
regards
Phil

[nodachi]

I know things like ibuprofen have different effects than just pain killing, but I try to avoid pain killer type medicines. Pain is your body telling you something is not right. If you prevent that sensation, you may over exert yourself and make it worse. Stupid me does that all the time, so I avoid painkillers as much as I can.

[Old Warrior]

All of the advice is much appreciated. I always take 1500 mg/day of glucosamine and chondroiten, as well as mega vitamins and a few other supplements. I only take tylenol at night, hoping my sleep will not be interrupted by minor pain.

It was a good decision to pass on the workout as I feel better today (less pressure, virtually no instability). One more day off and I'll give it a try. Of course, this whole process is complicated by the fact that Fri. is my day to test for 8 kyu. It's not that rank is of any significance, but it is part of the learning process and I would hate to miss the date as they are only scheduled every 3 months.

[Paburo]

(sorry for the offtopic)
i have my heel screwed since like a month ago. i didn't stop training then cause i had a big tournament. i still have a big tournament in a few days(national championship) so i can't really stop now. i went to the doc and she said i got no bone break anyway, just muscular stuff so she also medicated me ibuprofen for pain. now...

who said this is wrong???? stop scaring me guys, i don't wanna die just yet....

after this cup i'm gonna take a rest. i'm young and i heal pretty fast, but i'm not immortal :D

old warrior, i suggest you do the same. train and do well in your test, but when obligations are over take a time for your body to heal.

next is a real life story...

one guy at my dojo(40something now) said he had foot pain also. for years he didn't care much and went on training. he says he regrets it a lot now, as his bone broke in pieces and he had to be implanted some metallic scary stuff. his foot looks like frankenstein's now. i got the shivers just looking at it, and i still got nightmares about it.

moral is: go to the doc before it's too late.

[Marine_Boy]

Yes I too take glucosamine and the stuff works wonders. May I also suggest ginko bibola as it helps with blood circulation and gives a general boost to your day.

Stan

Ps. And no I am not an Avon type person flogging the stuff:tongue:

[PhilMcLaughlin]

Hi Paburo

If your doctor prescribes ibuprofen then thats fine as he/she will have checked your medical records anyway - perfectly safe & very effective stuff

I was responding to Neil's post that said most adults can withstand (and benefit from) a higher dose of Ibuprofen than is stated on the general package - which i know to be true BUT if you are asthmatic or may be asthmatic this is a no no.

It means that i cant take any ibuprofen tablets which is a blow as its a great anti inflammatory

Reagrding foot pain there are a couple of common complaints & they are normally caused by bad technique

poor technique with the feet can lead to further problems in knees and hips (hence relevant to this thread)

bottom line - check your technique !

cheers
Phil..

[JSchmidt]

Ibuprofen is also an anti-inflammatory agent, which I suspect is the main reason for the doc to prescribe it.
I had a back injury two years ago and virtually lived on the stuff!.
Anyways, Docs will pretty much say that if it hurts, stop. See a sports specialist/physio as well. You might have to limit the amount of practice during treatment, but at least you can continue practicing.

Jakob

[Old Warrior]

"most adults can withstand (and benefit from) a higher dose of Ibuprofen than is stated on the general package"

The MD who looked at my knee on Sat. said for a guy of my size (6' 230lbs) I should take double the recommended dose. His comment was that would give me the effective dose of the prescription meds he would probably order.

The drug reaction comment is of course important and duly noted.

[jusuran]

Sometimes I was injury from keiko. I like to take Diclofenac sodium tablets as anti-inflamatory more than Ibuprofen because It's low dose than Ibuprofen and it have more benefit than Ibu ( In Thailand we can go to drugstore and consult with pharmacist and buy some medicine without prescripsion from doctor)
you know, all drugs have side-effect. if you take it incorrect such as too long time, too higher dose or unsuitable times. It might make you unhappy.