Who should We condemn behind The London Bombing?

[samurai999]

If not for two factors Tim, the world would have left the middle east to rot in its sweltering, camel shit infested desert.

1) Oil. We need it, they have it. To me, the real agenda behind the war is oil, and of course Cheney and his pals raking in the cash from Iraq's oilfields. Lets face it, while human rights is a noble cause...very few times in history has it been the sole motivating factor in any conflict.

Especially where a Government is concerned.

2) The second factor is Israel. No I'm not an anti-semite but its true. America is Israel's boom stick...they get the most aid from the US aid coffers, not to mention weapons. If the US or the West pulled out of Israel...well, by the end of 2010...the mid east will be a nuke wasteland.

1.) The US is interested in oil. So is Europe. Putin, Blair, Chirac, etc. So is china, by the way that the Chinese oil firm (run by the gov't) tried to buyout Unocal. The worlds oil supply is pretty much in the Middle East. I believe that if Bush can get oil from the mainland US, he'd get it to avoid over-dependence on the Middle east for oil through the Alaskan pipeline (which is not looking like it will happen) and offshore drilling(California already said no). But, the main thing is keeping the environment safe (or keeping the environmentalists happy). Whichever way you guys may interpret it.

2.) Yes America has always been on Israels side. But compared to other admins in the past, i think that this is the most partisan (in terms of Israel-Palestinian relations) that has been since the Reagan admin when we were helping out with the Soviets.. Still, you can sense that even though everybodys trying to sound partisan, the US is still leaning to Israels side. Remember that we do have a lot of powerful Jewish people in Govt. Kissinger, Lieberman, etc... I'm not certain that this alone is swaying us to Israels side, but the way that Muslims are becoming more radical (due to their own actions or to foreign influences) is not helping to win the acceptance of Western countries...

Tim

[Utotin]

Isaac Ru, here is a story about your Iraqi freedom fighters. Bunch of filthy animals...

Gunmen kill 17 in Baghdad bus ambush
By Peter Graff and Waleed Khalid 1 hour, 28 minutes ago



BAGHDAD (Reuters) - About 10 gunmen emptied their automatic rifles into a bus carrying Iraqi workers from a factory west of Baghdad on Tuesday, killing up to 17 people, police and hospital sources said. Police said 12 people had died in the attack on the bus, but a source at one hospital said it had received 17 bodies.

"We were on the bus going home. Two cars with about 10 insurgents opened fire on us. We don't know why: we are just workers," said Adil Zamal, being treated for multiple gunshot wounds to the back at the An Noor hospital, which received about 20 wounded patients from the attack.

"We fell to the floor. They just kept shooting and shooting until they ran out of ammunition," he said.

[Ninjujinkaku]

MI6 and other intelligence agencies who either planned the bombing or allowed it to happen. Condeming people doesnt really help though.

[piggy]

Well he did gas the crap out of his own ppl. I thought WMD included nerve gas/agents?

Tim

wmds do not include chemical or biological weapons. wmds are atom bombs, hydrogen bombs dirty bombs etc...

[ISSAC RU]

Isaac Ru, here is a story about your Iraqi freedom fighters. Bunch of filthy animals...

Gunmen kill 17 in Baghdad bus ambush
By Peter Graff and Waleed Khalid 1 hour, 28 minutes ago



BAGHDAD (Reuters) - About 10 gunmen emptied their automatic rifles into a bus carrying Iraqi workers from a factory west of Baghdad on Tuesday, killing up to 17 people, police and hospital sources said. Police said 12 people had died in the attack on the bus, but a source at one hospital said it had received 17 bodies.

"We were on the bus going home. Two cars with about 10 insurgents opened fire on us. We don't know why: we are just workers," said Adil Zamal, being treated for multiple gunshot wounds to the back at the An Noor hospital, which received about 20 wounded patients from the attack.

"We fell to the floor. They just kept shooting and shooting until they ran out of ammunition," he said.

I am not capable of understanding dogs bark.

[ShinKenshi]

I am not capable of understanding dogs bark. Rather than resorting to sarcasim, could you please make a constructive rebutal to that article based on your views?

[piggy]

he'll have to ask his sources shinkenshi. give him a few days and he'll come up with another remark like the first but give him a few more days and he may just have it!

[Charuzu]

Why can oly a few people list their sources? And for God's sake my cat gives more sources than ISSAC RYU! (Really, it's a smart lil fuzzums)

[drizzt]

I am not capable of understanding dogs bark.
to advanced grammaticaly for you is it?

[Utotin]

wmds do not include chemical or biological weapons. wmds are atom bombs, hydrogen bombs dirty bombs etc... Not true. Chemical & Biological weapons are included. I believe that WMD includes any weapon that can kill massive amounts of people indescriminately.

[h2o]

Not true. Chemical & Biological weapons are included. I believe that WMD includes any weapon that can kill massive amounts of people indescriminately.
Guess that would be the definition, yes. I would really count in cluster bombs as well.
Either way, none of it was found in Iraq. Not that it really matters.

[Utotin]

Guess that would be the definition, yes. I would really count in cluster bombs as well.
Either way, none of it was found in Iraq. Not that it really matters.

Probably because he already used it all up on the Kurds!

[h2o]

Probably because he already used it all up on the Kurds!
Well we know he used quite a bit there yes, the evil bastard...
... still, they said it was all gone by now, and you haven't found anything but sand, so I guess they spoke the truth. I don't really care. Why shouldn't Iraq be able to have weapons that almost the entire western world have had? I see two possibilities: Either everyone has them, or no one has them. I prefer the second alternative.

[piggy]

Not true. Chemical & Biological weapons are included. I believe that WMD includes any weapon that can kill massive amounts of people indescriminately.


oh yeah you're right. i just remember reading an article about it but i guess it was catagorized by the different types.

sorry about that.
silly me =^.^=

[drizzt]

People are awfuly quick to say, we didnt find it , it COULDNT have BEEN there. it wasnt a secret it was fixing to happen......wouldnt you have gotten it the hell oput of the country?

[KhawMengLee]

As H20 pointed out earlier, with the example of the Saudis, morality is a cover. Its merely a matter of who is convenient at the given time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq-Kuwait_War

An investigation by the Senate Banking Committee in 1994 determined that the U.S. Department of Commerce had approved, for the purpose of research, the shipping of dual use biological agents to Iraq during the mid 1980s, including Bacillus Anthracis (anthrax), later identified by the Pentagon as a key component of the Iraqi biological warfare program, as well as Clostridium Botulinum, Histoplasma Capsulatum, Brucella Melitensis, and Clostridium Perfringens. The Committee report noted that each of these had been "considered by various nations for use in war." [4] Declassified U.S. government documents indicate that the U.S. government had confirmed that Iraq was using chemical weapons "almost daily" during the Iran-Iraq conflict as early as 1983. [5]

Sure it was sold for 'research' purposes, but this is almost as convincing as Japan saying it hunts whales for 'scientific purposes'.


Following the war, however, there were moves within the Congress of the United States to isolate Iraq diplomatically and economically over concerns about human rights violations, its dramatic military build-up, and hostility to Israel. Specifically, the Senate in 1988 unanimously passed the "Prevention of Genocide Act of 1988," which would have imposed sanctions on Iraq. The legislation died when the House balked as a result of intense lobbying against it by the Reagan administration. [9]

These Congressional moves were disowned by some Congressmen such as US Senator Robert Dole, who, according to an Iraqi transcript of a meeting with Iraqi President Hussein, stated that "Congress does not represent U.S. President George H. W. Bush or the government" and that Bush would veto any move toward sanctions against Iraq. Some US officials, such as Reagan's head of Policy Planning Staff at the State Dept. and Assistant Secretary for East Asian Affairs Paul Wolfowitz disagreed with US support for the Iraqi regime.

The relationship between Iraq and the United States remained collaborative until the day Iraq invaded Kuwait. On October 2, 1989, President George H.W. Bush signed secret National Security Directive 26, which begins, "Access to Persian Gulf oil and the security of key friendly states in the area are vital to U.S. national security." [10] With respect to Iraq, the directive stated, "Normal relations between the United States and Iraq would serve our longer term interests and promote stability in both the Gulf and the Middle East."


I think its very important in the future to watch foreign policy. Its all well and easy to simply say, Saddam is evil...well duh! But who gave him the funding and weapons. (its not just the US but France, Russia, China and Britain).

Government's must be very careful how it acts so that they don't create future Saddams.

[litige]

Well, Im in Montreal for a few weeks, Ill make a pit stop at vancouver and beat the living shit out of him if you guys want. Even if you dont Ill do it anyway ;)

He isn't worth it...althought...you seem a bit like stuck up for a 15 years old.

Give me your reasons and I'll tell you mine....right.
butt-rape me then I'll try to butt-rape you.
That's the kind of thing your saying.
I would like to see the good old indestructible arguments of a 15 years old on these questions.
Give me your best one. I'll show you how poor is it concluding that since it's your best one the other can be just worst, and I won't have to destroy them.

[nasrullah]

The difference between you and normal people is that the later do sympathise with any victim of violence: Asian, EU, US, Arab or whatever.

Then again, your reaction doesn't really matter that much since you will give us the respect we deserve, eventually. It's just a matter of time before EU/US troops march the streets of Mecca to restore order in a "gone-wild" world.

And the lamb of God returned as a Lion........

L'union fait la force (Belgium)
Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité (France)
Je maintiendrai (The Netherlands)

When u don't know what r u saying u better shut your mouth. I will be blunt at the speech u said becoz let me tell u one thing mecca and medina is protected by your and our only God. And He is the solely protector of the Holy cities. So when your troops will march at these cities they will die surely by God's punishment. So no strongest nation in this world can DARE to come that city because at 500 A.D a egoistic king like ur leaders had intention of conquering that city but eventually on the way he and his troops which sat on elephants were destroyed by the flocks of birds throwing pebbles. So before your nations any move on the holy cities they should think first because if they made a move it will be their downfall. Ok now about London bombings. Issac didn't clearly explain the situation so I would take care from here now. Now WHATEVER HAPPENED at London Bombings was not RIGHT even I am against it but I would say but that is not the whole story. Let us go back to the Iraq invasion in which U.S and U.K attacked the cities and bombed and killed the innocent civilians. Now was that Right? Search your feelings inside and you will come one common conculsion. Was there any sympathy for those civilians . No!! . So this is the main root of all the problems. If u kill someone's child don't expect that person to u show mercy coz one He would kill u or ur child in retliation. So this was the reaction of the terrorist. U kill the innocent people they will kill your innocent people. So same situation happened here in London. Now it wasn't right but it was the reaction. U may have heard Newton's third law. For every action there is opposite and equal reaction. So people WHATEVER TERRORIST HAVE DONE WAS A CRIME. But what U.S and U.K are doing in iraq is also a CRIME!! .Violence will breed violence. I would no one is right form the both sides.

[Greger]

My heart goes out to all my English brothers. You helped us during 9/11. I hope there is a way we can help you.
***

I dont now

I can't believe someone has the nerve to basically say they were asking for it. The terrorist are to blame. No one, but terrorist. Only cowards fight in such away. Al Q. and all the other groups have no sense of honor or respect. Bombing civilians; women and children, on purpose no less. Before 9/11 we weren't occupying Iraq and Afganistan. By bombing civilians the terrorists were asking to be hunted down like the dogs that they are. There is no need to talk nice about murderers. Thousands or lives gone thousands more injured. New York, London, Madrid, whats next Tokyo or Roma. What do they expect us to do just sit here and take it? I'm sorry if I offended anyone who has lost a loved one in this tradgedy, but this uncivilized stuff pisses me off.

Do you call your state civilized. Do you think its civilised to drop 2 atomicbombs over civilian cities thats starving?

Look at the Arabs wiew:
If your country is occupied, and one of your loved ones is killed, then ofcourse youll want revenge.
It didn´t start with 9/11 its just the stupid and uneducated that says so. Terrorists dont come to be without a reason. The want for revenge and justice is one of the most basic of a human being.
The terrorist comes after the war, theyre not the maker of it.
If youre an ateist, you know you only live once, and you dont kill people. Only those that belive in an after life, could ever justifie the taking of lifes. As christians and islamic do, Altough written in the koran and bible that you shall not kill. Religion is so easily made a pawn of the government and other forces, both the american and the islamic sides do.

Terrorist fighting is the same as gerrilla fighting its a fighting way of the people. When a government goes bad , or during an enemy attack, the people start to make militia or partisan forces. This is excatly what the greeks(they were the first christians in the world, so dont blame this acting on morals) did when the nazi occupied them, and its excactly what the arabs are doing now.

Orphans whith murdered parents don´t give shit on why theyre parents were murdered and their homes destroyed.. They dont have anything to live for, and seek revenge, and comfort in religion. Just as the civilized americans did at 9/11. Causing bloody conflict. The only way to stop this is to stop the barbaric wars, and be satisfied whith enduring. otherwise the bloody circle will ceep on spinning. revenge causin revenge, causing revenge............

[Anjin-san]

I was waiting for some hardcore muslims to get in there and lay a jihad smackdown on yo asses in this holy flame war. My gut muslim reaction to things I should be offended by were off the charts reading some of these threads. Good that they have representation.

That kind of talk is generally the way to upset a muslim. Be it attacking meccah or medina, saying ANYTHING about the profit that isn't in the koran, saying that the koran is not unedited over the past 1500 years (which, by the way, it has been, sorry guys), or watching Team America: World Police will generally get the jihad juice flowing.

My opinion is, you need to take religion out of the equation before you talk about this conflict, it has about as much relevance as anything else used as a recruiting tool.

[Kaoru]

When u don't know what r u saying u better shut your mouth. I will be blunt at the speech u said becoz let me tell u one thing mecca and medina is protected by your and our only God. And He is the solely protector of the Holy cities. So when your troops will march at these cities they will die surely by God's punishment. So no strongest nation in this world can DARE to come that city because at 500 A.D a egoistic king like ur leaders had intention of conquering that city but eventually on the way he and his troops which sat on elephants were destroyed by the flocks of birds throwing pebbles. So before your nations any move on the holy cities they should think first because if they made a move it will be their downfall. Ok now about London bombings. Issac didn't clearly explain the situation so I would take care from here now. Now WHATEVER HAPPENED at London Bombings was not RIGHT even I am against it but I would say but that is not the whole story. Let us go back to the Iraq invasion in which U.S and U.K attacked the cities and bombed and killed the innocent civilians. Now was that Right? Search your feelings inside and you will come one common conculsion. Was there any sympathy for those civilians . No!! . So this is the main root of all the problems. If u kill someone's child don't expect that person to u show mercy coz one He would kill u or ur child in retliation. So this was the reaction of the terrorist. U kill the innocent people they will kill your innocent people. So same situation happened here in London. Now it wasn't right but it was the reaction. U may have heard Newton's third law. For every action there is opposite and equal reaction. So people WHATEVER TERRORIST HAVE DONE WAS A CRIME. But what U.S and U.K are doing in iraq is also a CRIME!! .Violence will breed violence. I would no one is right form the both sides.

Gee... Is this ISSAC again? I can tell, you know, ISSAC RYU. You can't come back here, get a new account after being banned and not be found out, if I am correct that this is you. I am pretty sure I am. The syntax of this post is exactly like ISSAC's.

Go away.

Kaoru

[drizzt]

i think greger is either him or one of his buddies, and im willing to bet nasrullah is to. I know he had multiple alts, wouldnt suprise me if he pulled them out

[Kaoru]

i think greger is either him or one of his buddies, and im willing to bet nasrullah is to. I know he had multiple alts, wouldnt suprise me if he pulled them out

Well, Greger joined in May, before ISAAC got banned. He could be one of ISAAC's buddies. It's possible. But, I DO think Nasrullah is ISSAC RYU. So, Nasrulla needs to be gotten rid of, providing it is him, which I believe it is. He does not need to be here. He needs to just go to school and grow up now, and concentrate on his education. That's my humble opinion on it.

He had multiple alts? When? (Don't recall paying enough attention since I was not bothering to pay attention to ISAAC until I came across this thread a couple weeks ago. That's when I finally decided I'd had enough of his unkind posts.)

Edit: I read over Greger's last post agsin... You may be right, that that is ISAAC, Sure sounds like him. *sigh*

Kaoru

[Andou]

Hmm. I dunno...I think we may just be in the presence of someone who sounds like issac. Nasrullah genuinely posted about being interested in finding a dojo in UAE...But who knows.

[samurai999]

No matter he/she/it is still 17..

Tim

[Andou]

No matter he/she/it is still 17..

Tim

I'm only 17 too...so I guess I should shut up before people lose what little respect they have for me anyway.

[Greger]

i think greger is either him or one of his buddies, and im willing to bet nasrullah is to. I know he had multiple alts, wouldnt suprise me if he pulled them out


Actually i know jack shit about isaac and nasrullah. none of them seem pretty intelligent. All of what i have said are my opinions, and mine only.
I think all of you are way to black and white in your opinions. Sure the terrorists arent innocent, bu you dont blow yourself up and kill tenths of people without a reason. Something must have messed up their lifes before this. Terrorists are made by war. its the desperate victims that are converted ower to the terrorists side.
Violence spawns violence. Islam is not about violence, its just used as a tool by terrorists, as the american presidens use christianity for their purpouses.

[h2o]

Edit: I read over Greger's last post agsin... You may be right, that that is ISAAC, Sure sounds like him. *sigh*
Except that spelling and language is totally different...


Greger: Where in Sweden do you train?

[Anjin-san]

I think Greger's posts are spot on. Agreement! And Andou, wtf are you talking about? you're a respected KW regular like most of us :)

Nasrullah sounds like any pakistani youth. My cousins in hyderabad talk exactly like him. Too much aggression. I doubt him and ISSAC are the same person.

Way to blow yourself out in what, 10 posts. ROFL.

[nasrullah]

U idiots!!! Forget about Me and Isacc and just comment about my views. And I ain't stupid one u r all are. U r not seeing the whole picture. I am not saying that terrorist are right No!. But even the actions of Americans on invasion of Iraq is not right niether. U r all just dumb aren't u.U all think by using force or power u all achieve your goals NO. There is number one gloden of the universe and the world.No country remain owerful forever and as u do things wrong the outcome of the wrong actions will led your terrible destruction. Before calling stupid first look at dumb and retarded mind and open your eyes . Sheesh !!!. And by the way I don't know this ISSAC so just stop saying I am ISSac.

[nasrullah]

I was waiting for some hardcore muslims to get in there and lay a jihad smackdown on yo asses in this holy flame war. My gut muslim reaction to things I should be offended by were off the charts reading some of these threads. Good that they have representation.

That kind of talk is generally the way to upset a muslim. Be it attacking meccah or medina, saying ANYTHING about the profit that isn't in the koran, saying that the koran is not unedited over the past 1500 years (which, by the way, it has been, sorry guys), or watching Team America: World Police will generally get the jihad juice flowing.

My opinion is, you need to take religion out of the equation before you talk about this conflict, it has about as much relevance as anything else used as a recruiting tool.

When u talked about conquering Mecca and Medina obviously reiliogn would be invovled. Forget it? I won't waste my time on arguing with stupid people like u who doesn't know any history about Mecca and Medina. And I ain't upset. I don't need to be. Coz I know that God is protecting two cities so any move by ASmerica would led their own destruction. Dumbass!!

[Anjin-san]

first look at dumb and retarded mind and open your eyes

I need a T-shirt with that on it.

[h2o]

So, Nasrulla needs to be gotten rid of, providing it is him, which I believe it is. He does not need to be here.
Why? Because he doesn't share your views on current world politics? Then you have a lot of banning to do, assuming that you have administrative rights, which I believe you don't have. So, until you are a official moderator or administrator of Kendo World Forums, please stop threatening to ban people. Or stop visiting the Flames forum if you can't stand the fact that other people might have a different opinion.

Nasrullahs post is really nothing special when you examine it...
Threat that armies threatening Mecca and Medina will fail and feel the wrath of God. - Unless you plan to invade Saudi Arabia in the next couple of years you should be safe. And the "God is helping my side" argument is used by the US today as well. It's just a different (?) God.

I actually share his view about the bombings. No, I don't think they where "right" (God, I am so tired of having to explain this everytime) to bomb anything, but that they probably had a very good reason.

[h2o]

Dumbass!!We all enjoy a nice debate, so please stop calling people inproper things and start behaving. Calling people a "dumbass" is really like kicking yourself in the head, since you make yourself look like a 14 year old idiot who no one will ever listen to. And hopefully, this is not what you want...:rolleyes:

[Anjin-san]

OK then, lets bring religion into it. How about 'a hair on a womans head should be respected as though she were seven qur'ans'? How about 'In a holy islamic war there are to be NO civillian casualties, even if the enemy inflict casualties as such'. How many times have you read the qur'an, in arabic, while studying the language? Any other ayyats you or your buddies like to miss out on your next reading? Maybe you're too busy swinging razor blades at yourself in mourning?

Or you want to do history? How about Islam actually being spread by the sword? How about our main religious figures were as good military strategists as they were religious figures? How about the numerous editions to holy doctrine made by the caliphate over the past millennia, casually brushed aside by modern muslims who rant and rave about the purity of the holy book? There's some points for you. Now go take a long walk off a short cliff.

[nasrullah]

OK then, lets bring religion into it. How about 'a hair on a womans head should be respected as though she were seven qur'ans'? How about 'In a holy islamic war there are to be NO civillian casualties, even if the enemy inflict casualties as such'. How many times have you read the qur'an, in arabic, while studying the language? Any other ayyats you or your buddies like to miss out on your next reading? Maybe you're too busy swinging razor blades at yourself in mourning?

Or you want to do history? How about Islam actually being spread by the sword? How about our main religious figures were as good military strategists as they were religious figures? How about the numerous editions to holy doctrine made by the caliphate over the past millennia, casually brushed aside by modern muslims who rant and rave about the purity of the holy book? There's some points for you. Now go take a long walk off a short cliff.

Firstly Islam never spreads by swords it only uses kindness and words to cal people to Islam. Second thing if we look at the history for 2000 years and so u Romans and Crusaders were cruel weren't u? When Crusaders first conquered thr Jerusalem at 1100 sumethin [I don't know th excat date] U crusaders raid the Jerusalem and killed the innocent Muslims, Chiristans too [u kill ur own faith too how cruel is that] and Jews. But when Saladdin conquered again the Jerusalem in a second Crusades He didn't harm any civilians. This ai fact and this is the difference between u and us. Then your King Richard the Lion Heart attack the citites and kill 3000 Muslims civilians. These facts reminds of your characteristics and one thing more no matter how powerful u become or how many cities u nuke u will possibly never EVER GONNA ABLE TO HARM MAKKAH AND MEDINA even u try u best shotttttt.

[Hisham]

How about the numerous editions to holy doctrine made by the caliphate over the past millennia, casually brushed aside by modern muslims who rant and rave about the purity of the holy book?

If you didn't want to bring religion into it you could've pmed the guy but you didn't, all right i'd like to see you back your claims, and lets make sure that we're talking about the Qur'an not the hadiths, also what is your level of arabic understanding? Do you see the difference between the hadith's writing style and the Qur'an's style.

As for the sword thing, i'll give you some examples, how did the mongols that invaded irak become muslims, how did islam get to Indonesia or Malaysia? How did Han people called Hui in china become muslims wich BTW have an autonomous province called Ningxia nowadays, where's the sword factor in these cases?

Islam didn't spread only by the sword, nowdays it's spreading "byitself" no weapons involved, actually it's spreading while muslims are getting humiliated to say the least in many spots of this world since the colonization days by foreign powers directly or indirectly (dictators who are actually "businessmen" sponsored by some international corporations to be as clear as possible depending on the countries resources) plus the misguided fools that bomb innocents.

Don't think too much of your knowledge by saying "go take a long walk...." (eventhough Nasrullah was emotional in his comments and as somebody pointed out he's not out of his teen years)it's as relative as mine, and tone down that "i destroyed your belief" and "science is above all" attitude you're a 19 years old (i mean it literally as an amount of time) you still have much to learn as we do all btw.

[Paikea]

I actually share his view about the bombings. No, I don't think they where "right" (God, I am so tired of having to explain this everytime) to bomb anything, but that they probably had a very good reason.If, in the future, the jihadi's wake up to the fact that many of the weapons being used in their areas of interest are made by Bofors, and vehicles by Saab, will there then be a good reason to bomb the trains in Stockholm?

[Paikea]

Hisham,

From your perspective in Morocco, if the Muslim peoples could change the current situation how would they approach the problem? What should be changed and how?

[samurai999]

U idiots!!! Forget about Me and Isacc and just comment about my views. And I ain't stupid one u r all are. U r not seeing the whole picture. I am not saying that terrorist are right No!. But even the actions of Americans on invasion of Iraq is not right niether. U r all just dumb aren't u.U all think by using force or power u all achieve your goals NO. There is number one gloden of the universe and the world.No country remain owerful forever and as u do things wrong the outcome of the wrong actions will led your terrible destruction. Before calling stupid first look at dumb and retarded mind and open your eyes . Sheesh !!!. And by the way I don't know this ISSAC so just stop saying I am ISSac.

Your vocabulary abuse, your stubbornness and the way you try to cram your ideas onto others really don't convince me otherwise... You are just strengthening the assumption from Kaoru and others that you are ISSAC.

Yes the religion of Islam is not supposed to be violent and is not supposed to cause harm to others. That is what scholars of this religion believe. However, Osama Bin Laden, Al Qaeda, the Al-Aqsa Matyrs Brigade and all these cult cells popping up have me thinking otherwise. When you have fanatics like these idiots running around blowing themselves up, any religion can receive a bad reputation. See Catholics vs. Protestants in Ireland/England...

Tim

[Mugu]

Firstly Islam never spreads by swords it only uses kindness and words to cal people to Islam. Second thing if we look at the history for 2000 years and so u Romans and Crusaders were cruel weren't u? When Crusaders first conquered thr Jerusalem at 1100 sumethin [I don't know th excat date] U crusaders raid the Jerusalem and killed the innocent Muslims, Chiristans too [u kill ur own faith too how cruel is that] and Jews. But when Saladdin conquered again the Jerusalem in a second Crusades He didn't harm any civilians. This ai fact and this is the difference between u and us. Then your King Richard the Lion Heart attack the citites and kill 3000 Muslims civilians. These facts reminds of your characteristics and one thing more no matter how powerful u become or how many cities u nuke u will possibly never EVER GONNA ABLE TO HARM MAKKAH AND MEDINA even u try u best shotttttt.

Do you have a time machine? I like to try it, too! Come on dude... those stuff are 1000+ years old, please noticed 3 zeros. I dunno who can say those are facts. This world would be and hopefully be more peaceful if we all go back and see who threw the fist first and who did what, yes? I don't think you can call anything "FACT" just because you read it somewhere or been taught by someone. You'll probably teach your kids the stuff you learned and you probably leave out some other stuff. Imagine in 1000 years a lot of crap and the story could be deluded. So facts? I dunno. I hope I'm safe... I'm not defending either side...:rolleyes: Now I feel depress because I can't believe anything I read anymore... *cries* :D

[h2o]

If, in the future, the jihadi's wake up to the fact that many of the weapons being used in their areas of interest are made by Bofors, and vehicles by Saab, will there then be a good reason to bomb the trains in Stockholm?
Comparing "This nation invaded my country" to "This nation has built weapons that were in some ways used by the invading forces" is a bit naive if you ask me. I know that we export weapons to both the UK and US, but I would that swedish equipment in the US/UK army is still very very low. But you have a point, but it is quite weak. If we supplied the majority of your weapons, then I would not be surprised if something blew up in Stockholm too.
I would also like to add that our export to you (US/UK) is probably illegal by swedish laws, but our politicians somehow got around that. In Sweden it's not legal to export weapons to nations currently engaged in warfare.

[nasrullah]

Your vocabulary abuse, your stubbornness and the way you try to cram your ideas onto others really don't convince me otherwise... You are just strengthening the assumption from Kaoru and others that you are ISSAC.

Yes the religion of Islam is not supposed to be violent and is not supposed to cause harm to others. That is what scholars of this religion believe. However, Osama Bin Laden, Al Qaeda, the Al-Aqsa Matyrs Brigade and all these cult cells popping up have me thinking otherwise. When you have fanatics like these idiots running around blowing themselves up, any religion can receive a bad reputation. See Catholics vs. Protestants in Ireland/England...

Tim

Look what the idiot is saying. I just can't believe it!!! Yep u r idiot alright. Do u know what I was saying. I was saying no nation remains powerful forever and whatever wrong actions one country does after a time it will have to face the consequences . Now consequences doesn't necessarily mean that terrorist would strike heavier . It could also be natural disaster or other worse consequences. Before calling me a fantatic [WHich i am not] or before stating some stupide views I think understand the views more clearly u idiot!!!

[Paikea]

Comparing "This nation invaded my country" to "This nation has built weapons that were in some ways used by the invading forces" is a bit naive if you ask me. I know that we export weapons to both the UK and US, but I would that swedish equipment in the US/UK army is still very very low. But you have a point, but it is quite weak. If we supplied the majority of your weapons, then I would not be surprised if something blew up in Stockholm too.
I would also like to add that our export to you (US/UK) is probably illegal by swedish laws, but our politicians somehow got around that. In Sweden it's not legal to export weapons to nations currently engaged in warfare.
Exactly where are the dividing lines drawn then for there to be a "very good reason" (your words) to commit murder? My point is that there isn't, and once it's been decided that murder is an acceptable course of action the rest is a matter of increasingly irrational justification. If the situation does not change, at some point they will be coming for you. Will there be "very good reason" then, or will your perspective change?

Do you have the sand to walk the streets of London and say to the people hurt by these acts that there was a "very good reason" for what happened? How about Beslan, New York, Tel Aviv, Casablanca, Ryadh or Baghdad?

I think not.

[h2o]

Exactly where are the dividing lines drawn then for there to be a "very good reason" (your words) to commit murder? My point is that there isn't, and once it's been decided that murder is an acceptable course of action the rest is a matter of increasingly irrational justification. If the situation does not change, at some point they will be coming for you. Will there be "very good reason" then, or will your perspective change?
I don't know where to draw the line. I find it embarassing enough that our country sells weapons to other nations in war.
But there is as I said a big difference in supplying a small amount of weapons to actually be the invading force. Of course I would be mad with anger if someone blew up my family, but if it was done by people who got their families blown up by my nation, then why would I be surprised?
Reasons and justification are two completely separate things. I don't think it's justifiable to bomb someone just because they bomb you, but I can see why some people want to.

{QUOTE]
Do you have the sand to walk the streets of London and say to the people hurt by these acts that there was a "very good reason" for what happened? How about Beslan, New York, Tel Aviv, Casablanca, Ryadh or Baghdad?

I think not.[/QUOTE]
I would of course not walk up to someone who lost a loved one and say "You deserved it". It wouldn't be polite (and I don't think he/she did, either). But I sure as hell have the right to say that I wasn't very surprised when it happened. Your states have done people upset. Did you really think nothing would happen?

[drizzt]

U idiots!!! Forget about Me and Isacc and just comment about my views. And I ain't stupid one u r all are. U r not seeing the whole picture. I am not saying that terrorist are right No!. But even the actions of Americans on invasion of Iraq is not right niether. U r all just dumb aren't u.U all think by using force or power u all achieve your goals NO. There is number one gloden of the universe and the world.No country remain owerful forever and as u do things wrong the outcome of the wrong actions will led your terrible destruction. Before calling stupid first look at dumb and retarded mind and open your eyes . Sheesh !!!. And by the way I don't know this ISSAC so just stop saying I am ISSac.

congrats, if your not him, you have just taken up the position of KWF's antogonist in general, whom cant spell. i will admit, if you are isaac you have improved your grammar significantly.



and Anjin -san, exactly when did you beocme a raving smart-ass and rude to half KWF?

[Paikea]

I don't know where to draw the line. I find it embarassing enough that our country sells weapons to other nations in war.
But there is as I said a big difference in supplying a small amount of weapons to actually be the invading force. Of course I would be mad with anger if someone blew up my family, but if it was done by people who got their families blown up by my nation, then why would I be surprised?
Reasons and justification are two completely separate things. I don't think it's justifiable to bomb someone just because they bomb you, but I can see why some people want to.

I'm sorry, were any of the people who bombed (and then, later attempted to bomb) the trains and buses in London Iraqis? Was their motivation that of Iraqi patriots or that of Osama's Jihahdi? Just as it is ridiculous for us to use the Bin Laden problem as a reason for invading Iraq, it is ridiculous to use Iraq as justification for what Al Qaeda does.

[samurai999]

Look what the idiot is saying. I just can't believe it!!! Yep u r idiot alright. Do u know what I was saying. I was saying no nation remains powerful forever and whatever wrong actions one country does after a time it will have to face the consequences . Now consequences doesn't necessarily mean that terrorist would strike heavier . It could also be natural disaster or other worse consequences. Before calling me a fantatic [WHich i am not] or before stating some stupide views I think understand the views more clearly u idiot!!!

Oh yes.. I R idiot.. Good comeback...

Did I call you a fanatic in my post? Did you even READ my post?

Let me requote what I said in my post...

"Yes the religion of Islam is not supposed to be violent and is not supposed to cause harm to others. That is what scholars of this religion believe. However, Osama Bin Laden, Al Qaeda, the Al-Aqsa Matyrs Brigade and all these cult cells popping up have me thinking otherwise. When you have fanatics like these idiots running around blowing themselves up, any religion can receive a bad reputation. See Catholics vs. Protestants in Ireland/England..."

You seemed to miss the whole point of my post which is what ISSAC would've done. I wouldn't see how you would be offended unless you are a member of a extremist fanatics groups like I mentioned above. Cya later ISSAC the second or may I call you ISSAC Jr. ..

Tim

[Andou]

Hmm. Alright, well, if I may just put my outsider input because I know little about the matters at hand. Most of all, what I really want to say, is to nasrullah. I'm not taking any sides because I can see valid points on both sides (some more than others, but I don't want to really get mixed up in all this...). Mainly, in order to really get your point across in these forums, you need to talk to these guys as though you're a peer. Calling them an idiot will only result in making yourself look bad...Personal attacks make you look pretty childish here. Most of the forumites here are older than we are, so it's important that we don't try to say that we know more about _____ than them. Odds are, someone here knows more about something than we do. I'm saying this to you as one kid to another. Just trying to help...take my advice or not, I can sleep easy knowing that I tried to help.

[piggy]

just when i thought this thread couldn't be more rediculous...

i dont think nasrullah is isaac but they're both definately radical and a bit moody. first of all, its hard to read nasrullahs posts because they dont feel the need to put in two extra letters to make "ur" into your. by putting in these two extra letters, people will take you alot more seriously. no offesnse nasrullah. its just my observation.
second of all, this whole thread has gone way out of line. respected members of KWF are now at eachothers throat. i cant read any more than two posts without cracking up. its better than maddox's website.
and like andou told you nasrullah, calling people idiots and things like that isnt going to get you much respect. i have the feeling that you're on the road to getting banned if you keep this up. so please at least try to listen to what others have to say instead of calling them names.

well, thats all i can think of right now so if you'll excuse me, im going to make some lunch.

[h2o]

I'm sorry, were any of the people who bombed (and then, later attempted to bomb) the trains and buses in London Iraqis? Was their motivation that of Iraqi patriots or that of Osama's Jihahdi? Just as it is ridiculous for us to use the Bin Laden problem as a reason for invading Iraq, it is ridiculous to use Iraq as justification for what Al Qaeda does.
Sorry, but I don't have the slightest clue of the personal motives of the bombers. And I am trying to not speculate too much :)
But I really agree on your last statement.

[Bingstock]

To put this argument to rest: Terrorists are afraid of change. The United States went into Iraq to begin a progressive movement of change. Women are equal to men and everyone has the right to voice thier oppinion. These post that are available to us are the product of freedom granted to all under democracy. If sadaam husain had his way you would get your balls chopped off for writing anything but prais allah on the internet. For those who forget the american revolution, as well as the civil war, please remember that hundreds of thousand of men, as well as innocent women and childeren died to ensure our current way of life, our privilege to practice Kendo. So to say that America/Americans are to blame for the bombings of england is horse @#$#. Understand that though i may have a bias because i live here i would not stand behind an action or group I did not believe in. However brutal or hard the last century has been on the people of the middle east, the terrorist groups are only making the situation worse. There barbarric way of life, and i dont mean religion, i mean lifestyle and courses of action are no longer acceptable on a global scale. Since we are becomming global society i dont see anyone could not accept it. Oh thats right Ignorance.

[Bingstock]

sorry for ranting on. Killing is wrong anyway you look at it. no one has the right to take anothers life in my oppinion. that is an action left to a higher power. No one should be condemned for the bombing. perhaps we should focus on how to ensure those types of bombings dont happen anymore.

[Paikea]

Sorry, but I don't have the slightest clue of the personal motives of the bombers. And I am trying to not speculate too much :)
But I really agree on your last statement.Language barriers...thanks for not thinking I'm angry. When you wrote:


Of course I would be mad with anger if someone blew up my family, but if it was done by people who got their families blown up by my nation, then why would I be surprised?
It seemed to imply that you believed there was a connection between the Iraqi situation and the bombings.

[Paikea]

These post that are available to us are the product of freedom granted to all under democracy.

No, they are a clever and effective Marketing device perpetrated by Hamish and Alex. It's capitalism in action, not democracy. (Note to editors: I'm a subscriber now - it worked beautifully)


If sadaam husain had his way you would get your balls chopped off for writing anything but prais allah on the internet.

Actually, in his heyday, he'd cut your balls off for that too. He wasn't exactly a model Muslim until it suited him politically to be one.


For those who forget the american revolution, as well as the civil war, please remember that hundreds of thousand of men, as well as innocent women and childeren died to ensure our current way of life, our privilege to practice Kendo.

Opinions in Japan may differ. For that matter, I don't think our friends in Australia, Hong Kong, Britain and elsewhere think that either.

[Bingstock]

No, they are a clever and effective Marketing device perpetrated by Hamish and Alex. It's capitalism in action, not democracy. (Note to editors: I'm a subscriber now - it worked beautifully)

Actually, in his heyday, he'd cut your balls off for that too. He wasn't exactly a model Muslim until it suited him politically to be one.

Opinions in Japan may differ. For that matter, I don't think our friends in Australia, Hong Kong, Britain and elsewhere think that either.

Yes America banned the practice of kendo in Japan and America pokes its nose in a lot of business that it shouldnt, however staying germain to the topic at hand America fights to protect the freedom of as many as possible. By no means is our way of life perfect nor are our foreign policies fair to all nations. We are writing about very broad and complex topics in a forum dedicated to a specific practice of a isolated culture. The beauty of Kendo as well as all althletic and mental activities is you dont have to reside in a specific geographical location to enjoy and/or respect them. You can retort to specific parts of my argument all you want, but the bottom line is America isnt out to make the lives of others difficult. Its not good business practice. Essentialy thats what america is in my oppinion is one big business. good, bad thats the way it is. and considering a lot of the world economy revolves around what happens in america i dont see how it will ever change. bombing or not. I dont think its right that people die because of conflict of intirest and i would hope our species could someday find a way to make everyone happy. But thats just wishful thinking.Im not a history professor, and Im not a psycologist, so in essence my oppinion mean nothing to the scietific world. But I would entertain the thought that many feel the way that I do and im not alone in saying America strives for freedom across the globe.

[Paikea]

Yes America banned the practice of kendo in Japan and America pokes its nose in a lot of business that it shouldnt, however staying germain to the topic at hand America fights to protect the freedom of as many as possible. By no means is our way of life perfect nor are our foreign policies fair to all nations. We are writing about very broad and complex topics in a forum dedicated to a specific practice of a isolated culture. The beauty of Kendo as well as all althletic and mental activities is you dont have to reside in a specific geographical location to enjoy and/or respect them. You can retort to specific parts of my argument all you want, but the bottom line is America isnt out to make the lives of others difficult. Its not good business practice. Essentialy thats what america is in my oppinion is one big business. good, bad thats the way it is. and considering a lot of the world economy revolves around what happens in america i dont see how it will ever change. bombing or not. I dont think its right that people die because of conflict of intirest and i would hope our species could someday find a way to make everyone happy. But thats just wishful thinking.Im not a history professor, and Im not a psycologist, so in essence my oppinion mean nothing to the scietific world. But I would entertain the thought that many feel the way that I do and im not alone in saying America strives for freedom across the globe.
So, how about it folks, do our friends in Australia, Hong Kong, Britain and elsewhere give thanks that so many Americans died in the American Revolution and Civil War to make their Kendo possible?

You've got to be kidding...

[Paikea]

So, how about it folks, do our friends in Australia, Hong Kong, Britain and elsewhere give thanks that so many Americans died in the American Revolution and Civil War to make their Kendo possible?

You've got to be kidding...I feel guilty about leaving off Canada and Mexico again - nothing personal.

[h2o]

Language barriers...thanks for not thinking I'm angry. When you wrote:
It seemed to imply that you believed there was a connection between the Iraqi situation and the bombings.
No problem. I enjoy having discussions with people who actually reads what the other part is saying and, even better, tries to understand what it means. I am in no way angry on you.


I was considering to write a really long thread in reply of Bingstocks first thread. But I managed to get a hold on myself. Weee!
Anyway, Bingstock, I have only one thing to say: "America, **** yeah!" :rolleyes:

[h2o]

"America, **** yeah!" :rolleyes:
Hmm, I see the famous "freedom" has censored my post :D

[Kaoru]

Why? Because he doesn't share your views on current world politics?


No. The reason is because he was banned. Didn't you know that?
This is definately ISAAC. He can't contain himself and behave decently just like ISAAC. Talks the same too.


Then you have a lot of banning to do, assuming that you have administrative rights, which I believe you don't have. So, until you are a official moderator or administrator of Kendo World Forums, please stop threatening to ban people.

I call it as I see it. If he's a jerk, and keeps it up, I may report it eventually. We don't need people messing up the forums for everyone else. I waited a VERY long time before I decided to take on ISSAC RYU and then ask for him to be banned. Mean people don't need to be here. ISAAC has done nothing but be rude to others here on other forums besides the Flames section. Banning him was appropriate. I did not ban him. I just started the motion of it. Unfortunately, he deserved it. Mean and unkind behavior should never be rewarded.


Or stop visiting the Flames forum if you can't stand the fact that other people might have a different opinion.


Politics or an opinion was not the motivation. It was the fact that he was so mean. He does not understand what it is to be kind to ALL people. In the end, it will be his downfall.

Kaoru

[drizzt]

Isaac was not banned because we didnt like hi political views(illd like to beat the crap out of him for it, but thats not worth my time...), he was banned because he NEVER contributed ANYTHING to ANY reasonable discussion, but spouted BS all over the forums.


I think what finaly got him, he got brave and ventured into the lounge......I warned him when he started crap in my thread that i would start reporting his post everytime there, and i think someone finaly got angry with him.

Im actualy starting to beleive Isaac(plus te three or four alternate accounts ive seen him use) is actualy another member of this forum.....but ill keep my hunches to myself

would one fo the moderators be willing to tell us if he was Ip banned, or account banned? that would clear up the speculation

[Bingstock]

So, how about it folks, do our friends in Australia, Hong Kong, Britain and elsewhere give thanks that so many Americans died in the American Revolution and Civil War to make their Kendo possible?

You've got to be kidding...
i was by no means making reference to any of the countries you have mentioned. My point was and still is that present day americans have the ability to practice kendo, decorate cakes, whatever, because preveouse generations fought to give birth to present day democracy.
As a side note we were the first democracy in the world and it seems to be the popular choice of almost every country you have mentioned. Go figure.

[Paikea]

i was by no means making reference to any of the countries you have mentioned. My point was and still is that present day americans have the ability to practice kendo, decorate cakes, whatever, because preveouse generations fought to give birth to present day democracy.
As a side note we were the first democracy in the world and it seems to be the popular choice of almost every country you have mentioned. Go figure.Um, yeah. I'll bet I'm not the only one who read your statements as suggesting the world needs to be grateful to America because we gave you the freedom to practice Kendo (and to post on this forum?). BTW - Athens was the first democracy, and we live in a Republic, not a democracy.

[samurai999]

^^^

I think he meant for people living in our country. A republic? Really? If a Republic is defined this way (last paragraph):

http://print.google.com/print?id=sAJRCpfaKYgC&pg=PA1&lpg=PA1&prev=http://print.google.com/print%3Fq%3Drepublic%26oi%3Dprint&sig=93wpdZyTJt9wsY2hWJhtgp1J_vk

The US certainly couldn't have been a republic when it started... I think it is a mix.

Tim

[Paikea]

^^^

I think he meant for people living in our country. A republic? Really? If a Republic is defined this way (last paragraph):

http://print.google.com/print?id=sAJRCpfaKYgC&pg=PA1&lpg=PA1&prev=http://print.google.com/print%3Fq%3Drepublic%26oi%3Dprint&sig=93wpdZyTJt9wsY2hWJhtgp1J_vk

The US certainly couldn't have been a republic when it started... I think it is a mix.

TimThe US is a Federal Republic - a form of representative democratic government that uses indirect election. True democracy involves the direct election of the executive leadership - something we do not do and never have. One of the fallacies I watch people engage in these days is to assert that the United States is the only true democracy, or the first democracy. We are none of those.

One quick reference:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_republics

[Kusarigama]

Hmm, I see the famous "freedom" has censored my post :D

"Profanity: The end result of a weak and feeble mind trying to express itself".

Britt Nichols

[Hank]

"Profanity: The end result of a weak and feeble mind trying to express itself".

Britt NicholsWhat does that have to do with anything? He was quoting something that just happens to have profanity in it (used ironically, I might add) to sum up a point - I thought it was pretty damned funny.

Hank.

[Hisham]

Hisham,

From your perspective in Morocco, if the Muslim peoples could change the current situation how would they approach the problem? What should be changed and how?

Paikea,

IMHO the only way for real freedom is education first and foremost of the people by its people, it's of course a long and hard way but that's how you can have a strong basis to build upon, the interference of foreign countries should be to help to that effect but i guess i'm being idealistic, though there is some individuals that try to do that against all odds, the unsung heroes if you will.
There's an important question which is how would we make foreign interests give us respect and see us as equals? Well as our world is based on profit, this would be a tough one for those guys, there thinking would go like this:"do we want to deal with strong leaders which care about there countries or with others that can be bought for the right price and let us do virtually whatever we want? Do we want to face the same "shit" we face in our modern countries like labor rights ...etc which hurt our profits or be the only "masters onboard"? I'd be suprised if they went for the first option thus the need for an alert collectiv conscience to make get there respect, most of the time this has a cost as history shows us.

The things as far as islam is concerned, social justice and many other values which are based on educating the people's spirit instead of making the state enforce thousands of laws is in the center of the islamic system, ironically nowadays most muslim countries are dictatorships. We don't need anyone's democracy, we only need ours, one that stems from our environnement and reality, of course learning from other's mistakes and experiences is a must and a basic islamic concept.

Change has to occur on many levels, the one i mentioned in a simplistic way is IMHO the most important and most basic of them all, start dealing with the inside to make it strong then go for the outside.

[drizzt]

if you realy want to get technical, we have an elected government thats presided over and controlled by a group of unelected officials whom were apointed to further political gains(supreme court).

[Hank]

if you realy want to get technical, we have an elected government thats presided over and controlled by a group of unelected officials whom were apointed to further political gains(supreme court).This is a little overstatement, I think. I like the supreme court here in the US. The people on it aren't politicians. They aren't pandering to special interests to maximize campaign dollars. They aren't lying so that people vote for them, then changing their platform after election. They may be some of the most honest people in US politics. Plus, they are nominated by an elected official and installed by the Senate. The lifetime membership has to go, maybe 20 years or something like that, but I think the court provides good balance against out-of-control politicians.

Why don't you like this part of our forefathers' plan? Is it something specific?

Hank.

[drizzt]

it wasnt par tof our fore fathers plan, theres realy no provision for its existence. PERSONALY i like to decide who gets to mae a decision on what is or isnt legal in this country. Some of the old relics up there have no idea whats going ton in the country, or what popular opinion says, they interested in there agenda. I think it gives an out of control pres the ability to apoint either a bunch of right or let wing nuts up there. if the membership was 10yrs or something, that would be fine, but this lifetime crap has to go. this is not the USSR its the USA.

[Charuzu]

Sorry I wasn't here for so long... I was at Erie Canal (http://the12thus.com/ErieCanal/index.html) and then got sick after. ^o^

Now... onto a quote. I just wanted to clear something up.


as well as the civil war, please remember that hundreds of thousand of men, as well as innocent women and childeren died to ensure our current way of life,

Actually, as a civil war reenactor (the12thus.com) I can say that that is not so. It was mainly about preserving the union. We are all taught that it was to free the slaves (http://www.nps.gov/liho/slavery/al01.htm)... while part of this is true, it was not a main reason (http://www.socialstudieshelp.com/Lesson_35_Notes.htm). As it was once said by old Ben "History is told by the winners to tell what they did to the losers."

Also, General Lee was against slavery big time.

PS - Please dont take this badly. I fully agree with your oppion... I am only correcting a small mistake.

[drizzt]

charuzu have i mentioned lately i like you.......

He is exactly right. Slavery was used as a propoganda tool to rally moral support in the abolitionist states of the north. Lincoln was against abolition. He even tried to broker a deal at one point for all slaves to be deported back to africa(regardless of how long there families or they had been here). Just like charuzu, im not trying to be racist biggeted or anything else, just recapping a point of real history, not the cutsie pie crap taught in public schools. Take a step into a college class focusing on the civil war sometime with a proffesor thats less concerned with being PC and more concerned with real history......eye opening experience to the political reality behind the american civil war. I agree with a quote by Longstreet,"we should have freed the slaves, THEN fired on fort sumpter(i think i mispelled that but hey its 1:30)"

charuzu, what battle's have you participated in?

[h2o]

What does that have to do with anything? He was quoting something that just happens to have profanity in it (used ironically, I might add) to sum up a point - I thought it was pretty damned funny.

Thank you for doing the explaining for me. :D

[h2o]

"The winner writes the history" is one of my favourite sayings.

How much of this is taught in your schools? (Question to everyone, not just the americans).

I will begin with an example:
Since Sweden hasn't been involved in war for over 200 years, there is little "winners" to be found after the 18th century.
The most famous example is our first "real" king: Gustav Vasa who was crowned king in 1521 after throwing out Denmark from Sweden. The history around all this was very well documented, but the chronicles were, as we found out later, ordered by Gustav Vasa himself to make him look like a real hero.

Other than that I can't really remember any "cover-ups" in our history. But I bet there's tons of it.

And how about teaching what your country has done bad the last hundred years?
Unfortunately, my history class somehow managed to miss modern history, which meant I had to learn everything I know about world history from 1945 by my self.
Some things we seldom talk about here, are ashamed of, and which, for some reason we weren't taught at school, are:
1) The fact that german troops traveled through Sweden on a regular basis during WW2, which probably "helped" the germans a lot. It was of course due to the fact that if we hadn't, then Germany would have invaded us without any problem at all.
2) The fact that we, under the pressure of the Soviet Union, deported a lot of immigrant Balts back to their former homes, now part of the Soviet state. Not our finest hour.

[Charuzu]

charuzu have i mentioned lately i like you.......
He he ^^ you have been awesome yourself.

not the cutsie pie crap taught in public schools.
On the bright side of things they are getting better. My Global Teacher talked to us about how we sunk various japanese ships before WW2.

Take a step into a college class focusing on the civil war sometime with a proffesor thats less concerned with being PC and more concerned with real history......eye opening experience to the political reality behind the american civil war.
Man! I can't wait till college! I already was told by my global and Science teacher that I belong in collage, lol. Really flattering


I agree with a quote by Longstreet,"we should have freed the slaves, THEN fired on fort sumpter(i think i mispelled that but hey its 1:30)"
Have you ever read the novel "Killer angels" by any chance?

charuzu, what battle's have you participated in?
You can see a list of events here (http://the12thus.com/events.html). I was also in the movie "Gods and generals" becuse the day before the filming some of the Rebs thought that it would be funny to get in civilain clothing and jump into their SUV's and drive over to the union camp and steal those nice Silk, tassled, hand-sewn, rare and hand painted flags. To say the least we were not happy and called the police and reported theft. After haveing the reb camp full of police they handed it back but refused to tell who stole it. So anywho whe decided to give the whole unit the boot. But what we didn't know was that they were filming there so they dressed us up in reb outfits and had us cheering for jackson (They had us doing the rebel yell over and over but then it hit them that we could not do it so they just had us yell "Jackson, Jackson!). However, many people in my unit are in most of the "Up close shots"..... yet I only have that scene.

PS - Gods and Generals movie was nowhere as good as the book. They just should of called it the "Jackson Movie". Anywho, I still liked Killer angels more than Gods and Generals or The Last Full Measure (But the LFM was rather good but he just doesn't have his fathers skill).

[Bingstock]

Sorry I wasn't here for so long... I was at Erie Canal (http://the12thus.com/ErieCanal/index.html) and then got sick after. ^o^

Now... onto a quote. I just wanted to clear something up.



Actually, as a civil war reenactor (http://the12thus.com/) I can say that that is not so. It was mainly about preserving the union. We are all taught that it was to free the slaves (http://www.nps.gov/liho/slavery/al01.htm)... while part of this is true, it was not a main reason (http://www.socialstudieshelp.com/Lesson_35_Notes.htm). As it was once said by old Ben "History is told by the winners to tell what they did to the losers."

Also, General Lee was against slavery big time.

PS - Please dont take this badly. I fully agree with your oppion... I am only correcting a small mistake.
you are correct.

[Hank]

Also, General Lee was against slavery big time.
This went against intuition so I checked out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Lee and it seems he was a slave owner who didn't have much of a problem with slavery at all. Scroll down to "Lee as slave owner". Maybe you should question your teachers.

Hank.

[samurai999]

I thought general lee was a slave owner as well. Just goes to show you, some of these teachers are sometimes... way off..

Heres something i dug up. General Lees views on slavery in a letter. Shows that his views were very clear.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/leepierce.htm

Tim

[Charuzu]

And thus I am corrected. ^o^
Thank you for presenting that information

[drizzt]

I agree with a quote by Longstreet,"we should have freed the slaves, THEN fired on fort sumpter(i think i mispelled that but hey its 1:30)"
Have you ever read the novel "Killer angels" by any chance?


once in high school, then again for an essay in history 106(american history to 1866

BTW does the name Nathan Bedford Forrest mean anything to you?

[Charuzu]

BTW does the name Nathan Bedford Forrest mean anything to you?

He was the nutty reb in charge of gurealla warfare. Once the south surenderd he formed the KKK (He was the 1st grand wizard) and later distanced himself from the group.

But in my mind... once a nut always a nut

[drizzt]

BTW does the name Nathan Bedford Forrest mean anything to you?

He was the nutty reb in charge of gurealla warfare. Once the south surenderd he formed the KKK (He was the 1st grand wizard) and later distanced himself from the group.

But in my mind... once a nut always a nut

oh man do you need an education on that matter

Forrest commanded one of the finest calvary regiments in the western theatre. After the war he did form the original klan, but unlike the modern klan it WAS NOT a racist organization(i will site several books for that.....very well respected college texts i might add). He disbanded the group at the behest of Grant, and publicly attacked the use of the klan robe as a tool of racsism....... The modern klan is NOT related to that klan, and is not even a southern invention....it was formed in the midwest(northern part....wyomin i beleive). i take real issue with the klan, as everyone fromm this part of the country is accused of being a member.....talk about rascis, being a southern white male is an automatic brand ..... true or not

I dont know who told you he was a nut, but thats one you want to research and read a little history that was not northern propoganda...(pm me and ill explain why i know all this)

[Charuzu]

oh man do you need an education on that matter

Forrest commanded one of the finest calvary regiments in the western theatre. After the war he did form the original klan, but unlike the modern klan it WAS NOT a racist organization(i will site several books for that.....very well respected college texts i might add). He disbanded the group at the behest of Grant, and publicly attacked the use of the klan robe as a tool of racsism....... The modern klan is NOT related to that klan, and is not even a southern invention....it was formed in the midwest(northern part....wyomin i beleive). i take real issue with the klan, as everyone fromm this part of the country is accused of being a member.....talk about rascis, being a southern white male is an automatic brand ..... true or not

I dont know who told you he was a nut, but thats one you want to research and read a little history that was not northern propoganda...(pm me and ill explain why i know all this)

Ever hear of Fort Pillow? I will admit that he never sent his me where he would of never of gone and had 29 horses shot out from under him. But that still doesn't make him a nice guy

PS - You should come to a reanactment some time ^o^

[drizzt]

Ever hear of Fort Pillow? I will admit that he never sent his me where he would of never of gone and had 29 horses shot out from under him. But that still doesn't make him a nice guy

PS - You should come to a reanactment some time ^o^

fort pillow was a bunch of nutcases. he offered them surrender terms that were not only better, but a direct violation of standing confederate orders....aka all blacks were to be taken back into slavery immedeatly.

The no quarter was delivered by the rules of war, and BOTH sides knew what it meant. unfortunatly the fanatics defending the fort chose death to honroable surrender.


I would LOVE to come to some of the reenactments up north, but the money is not there(unfortunatly). I have been to the one at sabine pass, and have visited several battlefields in tenesee(names are escaping me....i have a porr memory sometimes.) and the battlefield at vicksburg. SOMEDAY i want to go participate at gettysburg and some of the more northern battles(i had several friends who had discussed forming a gun crew and volunteering our guns to one of the batterys(theres one localy i beleive) but money and interest fell away after they figured out the time and commitment(spoil sports)

[Charuzu]

I would LOVE to come to some of the reenactments up north, but the money is not there(unfortunatly). I have been to the one at sabine pass, and have visited several battlefields in tenesee(names are escaping me....i have a porr memory sometimes.) and the battlefield at vicksburg. SOMEDAY i want to go participate at gettysburg and some of the more northern battles(i had several friends who had discussed forming a gun crew and volunteering our guns to one of the batterys(theres one localy i beleive) but money and interest fell away after they figured out the time and commitment(spoil sports)

I just looked at wiki and.... you are right about ft. pillow.

Also, you missed the funny Gettysburg! It was a hot day so the placed explosions lit the feild on fire during Picketts charge. While the Rebs were trying soo hard to cross the feild (They went one way... the fire would then move to block them) while we (the union) were chewing on ice and making "Slushie" runs into the croud. They only things that the union guys worryied about was....

1.)What happens if the fire reaches the cannons?
2.)If our dear reb friends (They sing great!) catches on fire will this event be put on hold?
3.)Do I have the money for a slushie?
4.)Will the ice last untill they make it here?
5.)At what temp. do brogans melt?

PS - If you ever make it to a event that I am at I will make shure you get to go play with us (if you dont mind blue... but if not we can always hook you up)

PPS - Hakama and keikogi are so much better than a wool jacket, wool vest, wool pants, long jons and an long sleeve shirt. (especally in 90+ heat!)

[drizzt]

Im not condoning fort pillow btw......just making a point it was nto as bad as its made out to be :).

BTW forrest is one of my great great great great uncles.....


I would love to come up, maybe next summer :). I have a hawkins rifle and have been attempting to acquire a sharps(the dual trigger one......cant remember the name) with a brass scope. i found a REAL one, but he wanted more money than my college education was worth......

ever been to the blockade runner down in tenesee? we stopped by there once coming home, they do nothing but sell civil war era weapons and clothing, i loved it.

PS. when the fire reaches the cannons we discover what being on cemetary ridge during a bombardment was like :)

[J. Schitt]

-1987 . In Gulf of Persia American Destroyer send out a cruise missle
attacked a plan carried with 300+ passengers , As Result , all of them died. American answers were : We are regretful that has happned , we thought
that was a military target.

-1999 . American F-117 Bombed Chinese embassy in Yugo. 2+ died and 30 others were injured. American asnwers : We mistakenly thought that was a
military target. We are regretful that has happened.

Those two are just some very recent things that has happened. Those two
are just simple cases. If you count how many people in the world died
direct / indirect because of American Foreign Policy since 1945, you will be surpised , but they ever said a sorry? No , all the answers are '' Regretful'' .
No , thank you.
Pain in our heart should be forgotten?

In the case of the Chinese embassy, the spies there were relaying US communication to the Serbs.

You may also remember that at the time the Serbs were murdering moslems and the US and allies went there to stop it.

[Greger]

Why? Because he doesn't share your views on current world politics? Then you have a lot of banning to do, assuming that you have administrative rights, which I believe you don't have. So, until you are a official moderator or administrator of Kendo World Forums, please stop threatening to ban people. Or stop visiting the Flames forum if you can't stand the fact that other people might have a different opinion.

Nasrullahs post is really nothing special when you examine it...
Threat that armies threatening Mecca and Medina will fail and feel the wrath of God. - Unless you plan to invade Saudi Arabia in the next couple of years you should be safe. And the "God is helping my side" argument is used by the US today as well. It's just a different (?) God.

I actually share his view about the bombings. No, I don't think they where "right" (God, I am so tired of having to explain this everytime) to bomb anything, but that they probably had a very good reason.

Good said.(bra sagt)
I agree with that its sad that the faults of the nations arent regularly taught in school. I got to learn of the cooperation with germany, but nothing about the balts.

I train in FSKA btw. its a nice dojo in stockholm.
Quite succesfull, i think we have a few kendokas in the national team.

[jimswanson]

I have a hawkins rifle and have been attempting to acquire a sharps(the dual trigger one......cant remember the name) with a brass scope. i found a REAL one, but he wanted more money than my college education was worth......


Are you talking about the Quigley version? Most of the Sharps replicas are not drilled and tapped for scope usage. There are a couple of Italian manufacturers making them for around $1200.

Jim

[h2o]

I train in FSKA btw. its a nice dojo in stockholm.
Quite succesfull, i think we have a few kendokas in the national team.
Well, FSKA is like half of the available kendoka in Sweden, so yes I've heard about them :P

[kendonewbie]

"Is it the Terrorists?
Who is the true barbarian behind all of these horrible tragdies?
Who is the one plant this terrorism seed?
Who is the one invade other country thru a violent war?
How can those who is brutally killing the innocent lives of the
others condemn this tragdy?
Who has the right to give the meaning of '' Terrorism'' when they
are acting in such way?
The deaths of the innocent men and women in this tradgy should
be remembered, but this doesn't mean their lives are more important
than the others across the world.
If we must condemn , We must Condemn the true masterminded
terrorist behind all of these killings."

sorry, i know this is off the current topic, but i want to say this anyway.
Issac, if you're reading this as a guest or under another account, i hope you burn in hell. You kept going on about pointing fingers and whose to blame...your full of it. Do you personally know anyone whos died in any of these attacks? Seen what their friends in family are like after they died? I doubt you have. Yet here you go saying that the victims of terrorism are the people who were ultamitly the victims.
side note:not only do i hope you burn in hell, i hope you die a slow painful death.

[Andou]

sorry, i know this is off the current topic, but i want to say this anyway.
Issac, if you're reading this as a guest or under another account, i hope you burn in hell. You kept going on about pointing fingers and whose to blame...your full of it. Do you personally know anyone whos died in any of these attacks? Seen what their friends in family are like after they died? I doubt you have. Yet here you go saying that the victims of terrorism are the people who were ultamitly the victims.
side note:not only do i hope you burn in hell, i hope you die a slow painful death.

Hey, man. You don't really have to worry about isaac coming back on and/or reading as a guest. Even if he did, there would be no coherent argument aside from him using your nation's flag as a weapon against you. My advice: enjoy the peace of absence while it lasts...I'm sure there's another isaac that'll join soon enough.

[kendonewbie]

alright. sorry about that. I just read the first 6+ pages of this thread and got really pissed. I have friends whose parents/relatives/friends died in 9-11, and Issacs crap kinda hit a nerve.

[eXact]

wow this thread is awesome so much going on but too bad only the middle was good wen issac was here. i need a couple days before i can read it all. everything was so cool wen people threatened to go come canada and beat issac's ass, but dam no one showed up yet.

[Kumdo-Star]

Is it the Terrorists?
Who is the true barbarian behind all of these horrible tragdies?
Who is the one plant this terrorism seed?
Who is the one invade other country thru a violent war?
How can those who is brutally killing the innocent lives of the
others condemn this tragdy?
Who has the right to give the meaning of '' Terrorism'' when they
are acting in such way?
The deaths of the innocent men and women in this tradgy should
be remembered, but this doesn't mean their lives are more important
than the others across the world.
If we must condemn , We must Condemn the true masterminded
terrorist behind all of these killings.

what does this have to do with kumdo

[kendonewbie]

Nothing. It would seem Issac enjoyed getting attention by posting anti-american threads and such. So...when he wrote this thread...it seems like he's trying to blame america for the london bombing...if you've read at least half this thread, you'll see he really has no idea what hes talking about

[Andou]

wow this thread is awesome so much going on but too bad only the middle was good wen issac was here. i need a couple days before i can read it all. everything was so cool wen people threatened to go come canada and beat issac's ass, but dam no one showed up yet.

I'm sure some of the Canadian KWF regulars would if they knew where he was.

[Greger]

I don't know where to draw the line. I find it embarassing enough that our country sells weapons to other nations in war.
But there is as I said a big difference in supplying a small amount of weapons to actually be the invading force. Of course I would be mad with anger if someone blew up my family, but if it was done by people who got their families blown up by my nation, then why would I be surprised?
Reasons and justification are two completely separate things. I don't think it's justifiable to bomb someone just because they bomb you, but I can see why some people want to.

{QUOTE]
Do you have the sand to walk the streets of London and say to the people hurt by these acts that there was a "very good reason" for what happened? How about Beslan, New York, Tel Aviv, Casablanca, Ryadh or Baghdad?

I think not.
I would of course not walk up to someone who lost a loved one and say "You deserved it". It wouldn't be polite (and I don't think he/she did, either). But I sure as hell have the right to say that I wasn't very surprised when it happened. Your states have done people upset. Did you really think nothing would happen?[/QUOTE]

I mostly agree to you. its good to find a nother person with humble opinions, not radical and filled with hate like many persons have posted. Its important to try to understand all humans. even those that you think are doing wrong. They all try to make justice, they have all been affected in their life as to grow up to who they are- people arent born hateful, they become individuals of interaction with others, good or bad. Try to understand, not attack. Theres nothing to gain from mindless rage.

[Paikea]

This thread has gone farther than flaming.Yeah, Kendo-Boi is ISSAC RU. Everyone please read some of his posts and let Hamish know he should be banned again. Poor little man...

[kendo-boi]

You can't ban Mr.Kung's ID......he is such a well-mannered young man.

[Paikea]

You can't ban Mr.Kung's ID......he is such a well-mannered young man.
kendo-boi (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/member.php?u=3836)
Banned

Via con dios, pendejo.

[Lloromannic]

kendo-boi (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/member.php?u=3836)
Banned

Via con dios, pendejo.

That's "Vaya (or Ve) con dios, pendejo" Mr Gringo :wink:

Are you collectig the Banned messages? They'd make a great necklace. Kind of similar t those ear necklaces in war movies.

[Paikea]

That's "Vaya (or Ve) con dios, pendejo" Mr Gringo :wink:

Are you collectig the Banned messages? They'd make a great necklace. Kind of similar t those ear necklaces in war movies.Damn spell-checker thought it was latin. Mea Culpa.

I take it the meaning was still clear?

[Lloromannic]

Damn spell-checker thought it was latin. Mea Culpa.

I take it the meaning was still clear?

Oh Yes. Not harsh enough for him though. There is no word in spanish for him.

[Paikea]

Oh Yes. Not harsh enough for him though. There is no word in spanish for him.Oh, yes there is...

[Gregory]

yes there is

"leer"

[Lloromannic]

Oh, yes there is...

Really? I honestly can't think of one. There is no word that is taboo in (mexican) spanish anymore (unless it's so secret I don't know about it)
Not like in english with the C word.

[Alex]

Let's just stop this conversation here...

[samurai999]

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/tskono/Misc/misc11.jpg

Tim

[Moe-KendoFreak!]

If I were a Muslim, I'd be nice and STFU.


what the hell is that supposed to mean!

[h2o]

what the hell is that supposed to mean!
Please, this is not a thread that needs to be revived... :smoker:

[Moe-KendoFreak!]

i mean like what? if i were a muslim i shouldnt talk and i dont have a right to talk coz all i'd say would be bullcrap and anti everything and i would bring shit upon myself? damn man if thats the case then i really dont wanna get started coz it aint worth it, u dont know what kind of shit i see in the media about muslims and im sick of it... damn... and no im not tying to provoke anyone

[Kaoru]

i mean like what? if i were a muslim i shouldnt talk and i dont have a right to talk coz all i'd say would be bullcrap and anti everything and i would bring shit upon myself? damn man if thats the case then i really dont wanna get started coz it aint worth it, u dont know what kind of shit i see in the media about muslims and im sick of it... damn... and no im not tying to provoke anyone

Oh, don't worry. :) You seem to be a nice person to me! That's right. Not all Muslims are bad. :) Welcome to our forum BTW! :)

Kaoru

[Paikea]

Let's just stop this conversation here...You didn't think I'd >actually< get graphic, did you? Not my style at all...well, not anymore. :wink:

[Mugu]

Let's just stop this conversation here...

Please lock this thread, it gets to the point... I don't even have a word for it...

[h2o]

i mean like what? if i were a muslim i shouldnt talk and i dont have a right to talk coz all i'd say would be bullcrap and anti everything and i would bring shit upon myself? damn man if thats the case then i really dont wanna get started coz it aint worth it, u dont know what kind of shit i see in the media about muslims and im sick of it... damn... and no im not tying to provoke anyoneWhat I mean is that this thread was started by a flaming troll, and it has not achieved anything. It is one of those threads you really want to lock away in a dungeon and throw away the key.

[Moe-KendoFreak!]

Oh, don't worry. :) You seem to be a nice person to me! That's right. Not all Muslims are bad. :) Welcome to our forum BTW! :)

Kaoru

thanks :smiley:, i was gettin a little pissed off back there, but the thing is our image is portraied so badly in everything, from human rights to style of living,,, to just about everything, and the middle east is shown as a breeding place for terror and evil, and its like we sell weapons on the streets and people are always scared... there isnt and wasnt ever any proof that there were weapons of mass destruction even! i mean nothing happened in saudi arabia (or most countries) ever! until after sep 11, and the ones that were killed were mostly arab muslims too,, and in amman a few days ago two of my relatives were killed in the bombing of the hotel... its all fucked up

and please dont say "not all muslims are bad" its like ur sayin "muslims are generally bad but there r a few good ones" or maybe im just in a bad mood...

thanks

moe

[Moe-KendoFreak!]

its funny how a troll can get 25 pages of replies... heh

[Moe-KendoFreak!]

sorry if i seem rude btw

[Moe-KendoFreak!]

yay! i wanna get a custom avatar yay!

STOP the VIOLENCE!

[Greger]

Except that spelling and language is totally different...


Greger: Where in Sweden do you train? At FSKA, lärar högskolan

oh, and looking back at my post, i know it sounds quite aggressive, but trust me, i dont want to get rid of religion, but it is still used as a tool by many governments and movements.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Dead thread.