Just wondering

[yohed55]

this is my 3rd post, but i have read these forums a lot. i was just wondering, theoretically speaking, could i use kendo with a katana? like for real and it would work?

[ahmed61086]

I think a lot of people on the forum would say, "why would you want to know, or why would you want to do that, or kendo isnt for killing," and things to that extent. But ill tell you straight up, yes and no, but mostly yes. The sport of kendo is based on real swordfighting and a lot of the aspects of sword fighting are not in the art of kendo. Let me say this, if you did realy fight with a katana and you are proficient in kendo, you could probly do some damage, maybe even a lot of damage. But if you realy want to learn how to use a sword(a real blade), you should study kenjutsu.

[yohed55]

thanks a lot, i just wish there was a kendjutsu dojo in wisconsin.......

[Pan-Chan]

It would depend on the kenshi, really, I'd assume.

Unless you are a very highly skilled kenshi, or your kata are quite good, your kendo probably leans more towards striking that cutting. But of course if you were using a shinken, any contact you made with a person would damage them, but it would be far less affective than, let's say, someone who has trained in iaido and knows how to handle an iaito, or perhaps even a shinken[a real, sharpened nihonto]; there is a great difference in the way one uses a bokken, shinai, and nihonto.

So, in my opinion, it is a very 'iffy' thing. And something else is that you would'nt do the same footwork that you use in kendo if your were in a real duel, for the most part, I'd guess. I think it would really depend on the person's grasp of kata in the end, if kendo was the only art practiced, I mean, but that's just me.

I'm just commenting like this because the "Why would you want to know..." question has been addressed and understood.

But yeah, if using a real sword is your goal for the future, then kendo probably isn't the art you want to study to reach it; kenjutsu or iaido would be MUCH better; they would actually help you, I mean.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do with the answers you get on here! :D

[yohed55]

thx for all the advise, i want to learn anything i can, but the only dojo close to me teaches kendo and nothing else :( do any of you know of a dojo in the mid west area that teached iaido, kenjutsu etc??? oh yea, feel free to im me, im usually on AIM thx agin

[Andou]

Just some input. If you really want to learn as much as you can I'd say if you find an Iaido dojo and have the time, to try and learn kendo and iaido. That's just me though. Although I can't personally speak from experience, I've read countless times that iaido and kendo compliment each other quite well.

[joekc6nlx]

Ahmed,
I don't see how you classify kendo as a sport. It is first and foremost a martial art, not a martial sport. Its aim is self-improvement, not competition with somebody else.

You can do some pretty good damage with a bokken, you don't have to use a katana. In fact, some of the samurai could use a bokken to dispatch an opponent quite effectively. Why bloody up your sword?

I'm not advocating the use of a katana by anyone who isn't properly schooled in its use. We don't let children operate motorcycles when they have just learned how to ride a bicycle. Giving an edged weapon to someone so they can swing it around and act like a samurai is dangerous in the least. Of course, NOBODY here would ever do that, right? We all know how dangerous katanas are and don't want anyone hurt through ignorance.

[yohed55]

thx for the input, i think i'll stick with kendo for now, until i get the time AND money

[ahmed61086]

When i said, "The sport of kendo", it was more a figure of speach then a generalization. I know kendo is an art,that is why i practice it. Yet, in a way, it is allmost like a sport, but i will not get into this, this has been argued over and over. I believe it is more of an art then a sport but i also believe it is kinda both.

[ShinKenshi]

...if you realy want to learn how to use a sword(a real blade), you should study kenjutsu.

I agree. Kendo is a standardized form of sword fighting and it really is meant to be used while wearing bogu. If you're really interested in learning how to handle a live blade, then do either iaido or kenjutsu, or both.

[ChaShu]

thx for the input, i think i'll stick with kendo for now, until i get the time AND money

Sorry to say yohed-chan, but kendo tends to be a slightly costly activity. Hope you're not thinking that kendo will not be a hit to your pocketbook... :nervous:

[Hisham]

thx for all the advise, i want to learn anything i can, but the only dojo close to me teaches kendo and nothing else :( do any of you know of a dojo in the mid west area that teached iaido, kenjutsu etc??? oh yea, feel free to im me, im usually on AIM thx agin

Yohed you dunno how lucky you are to have a Kendo dojo close to you, i can't even believe you said that with a sad face lol, just start with Kendo, you will learn a bit about the japanese sword even if you'll only be using a bamboo stick (shinai) for fighting and practice or a wooden one (boken) for doing forms (kata), the day you'll fly with your own wings look for some place where kenjutsu or iaido is tought and don't think your kendo experience is a waste.

[Charlie]

I think you can, but it does take some cross training or at the least just time to get the feel of the katana, which does not have the same feel as shinai or bokuto.

[yohed55]

Thx also i think ill take kenjutsu when i get a little older and o yea, its only 800 a year to learn it and i live at home, so it shouldnt be too hard to pay for once i start working soon

[Hisham]

Thx also i think ill take kenjutsu when i get a little older and o yea, its only 800 a year to learn it and i live at home, so it shouldnt be too hard to pay for once i start working soon

That's the spirit :)

[yohed55]

ok, i regrouped and formed a plan, im taking kendo until i save up some money for kenjutsu. (katana mostly) But i've heard that the paul chen practical series isnt good, this is just about the only thing that will fit into my budget, is the Practical Pro any better? should i even be posting this? What sword should i use to start is my main question.

[Hisham]

ok, i regrouped and formed a plan, im taking kendo until i save up some money for kenjutsu. (katana mostly) But i've heard that the paul chen practical series isnt good, this is just about the only thing that will fit into my budget, is the Practical Pro any better? should i even be posting this? What sword should i use to start is my main question.

Better ask that question when you actually start kenjutsu, your teacher then will answer it, if not which i doubt ask it on the Iaido section of the forums or make a search.

[yohed55]

ok thx a lot, i can't wait

[yohed55]

is chicago budokai a legit dojo? it practices the tenshin ryu style of kenjutsu, the website is http://www.chicagobudokai.com

[Yamakaze]

is chicago budokai a legit dojo? it practices the tenshin ryu style of kenjutsu, the website is http://www.chicagobudokai.com

The best way to get the answer to this question, is to visit the dojo and see for yourself. Tenshin-ryu has been in the US since the founding dojo opened in San Diego in the late 1960s. Students from that dojo are still training and producing many fine students. The Chicago Budokai was founded by one of these early students named Rick Ritacco and opened in the early 1980s. It is one of the oldest existing dojo to offer instruction in Kenjutsu in the midwest and has produced several senior level students, who have gone on to open their own dojo and continue to train today.

Amos Smith

[yohed55]

LOL god I was moronic just a year ago. :cheeky:

[Bennosuke]

Although kendo would be helpful for real sword fighting, there are a lot of things in Kendo that would be detrimental. Taitara would be really really dangerous in a sword fight. Lots of kendo is shinai specific.

Also you probably won't be expected to buy a shinken (live blade) for kenjutsu. You will probably start with a bokken, then an iaito. Although it does differ depending on the school.

Enjoy whatever you end up doing

[Kitsune]

but kendo did not supposed to be invented for preparing samurais for the battle?

[Bennosuke]

It was, but over time it has moved away from being combat usefull, with a lot of the more dangerous moves, such as take downs and do chokes, taken out.

Also a lot of samurai, Musashi included, felt that shinai style training, was not proper and taught form that would be useless with an actual katana. You can read Musashi's perspective in the Go RIn No SHo

[yohed55]

I don't remember anything about shinais being in Gorin No Sho... Maybe I need to read it again.

[h2o]

I don't remember anything about shinais being in Gorin No Sho... Maybe I need to read it again.
Hmm, I thought that the shinai was invented sometime in the 19th century, and Musashi was active in the 16th-17th century. So it sounds a bit weird. But then, I have not yet read Gorin no sho.

[Charlie]

No, you're right. Musashi could not have commented on shinai training as it had not been invented yet.

Hey, we all start "moronic," don't we? Whether you get into kendo because of tradition, nationality, ethnicity, Star Wars, Conan, anime, curiosity, ninjas, whatever, these questions come up and are part of what motivates us. Personally, I feel that, yes, kendo does make some concessions to shinai kendo but is still deeply rooted in actual sword combat - person-to-person, non-armored combat, mind you - and to tell the difference one would have to speculate. That speculation would be even more informed if one studied both kendo and old-skool kenjutsu but not everyone is in that position.

So, in the final analysis, this is a good discussion over beer/green tea at a second practice, etc.

[bobdonny]

Actually, to the best of my knowledge shinai's were well available back then.
Except as opposed to our 4 stave shinai there were many types of bamboo used and many varying configurations including 16 stave and 32 stave shinai's.

EDIT: check this out http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9683

[Bennosuke]

I think it was in how other schools practice poor technique.
Let me look it up...

[Bennosuke]

I can't find it. Sorry guys, I don't know where I got that impression

[Charlie]

Interesting, Bobdonny! I forgot about "fukuro shinai," which was nto like our contemporary shinai and I think still could ring your bell if hit with one. Benno, lemme know if you find the part you're looking for in Go Rin No Sho, I'd be happy to stand corrected.

[kurisu]

The only way to train to fight someone is to train fighting someone. You can learn to use a katana in a different discipline, but there is no better way to learn to fight someone than kendo. Not only are you developing the ability to move quickly, learn timing and distancing, you are also learning how to react to someone coming at you at full speed, full power, and with full intent on hitting you. You can't get that in kenjutsu. Take boxing for instance, you can hit a heavy bag all day long, be great with a speed bag, look good shadow boxing, and even hit someone who is holding pads. You can have every fundamental down to a science, but unless you have ring time, and are sparring with full intent, you will never learn how to box. As far as the battle field is concerned, I don’t think any other discipline will give you the stamina it takes to survive. Sure you might know a few more tricks, but kendo is preparing you to fight opponent after opponent. The strength and stamina you get from kendo is far beyond that which you would get in kenjutsu.

As was mentioned earlier, the combination of iai and kendo will make you a good swordsman, if you practice both. Kendo will teach you how to go head to head with someone, and iai will teach you how to handle a real sword. If you just do kendo, and work you way up to at least yondan or godan, I would bet you could beat about anyone who doesn’t do kendo with anything, a stick, an umbrella, bokken, you name it.

[Bennosuke]

I found it!!!!!:D
From the Go Rin No Sho Scroll of Fire, introduction, translated by Kenji Tokitsu: "In this world, people are alike in havining too limited a conception of strategy.... Others teach the advantage of slight increases in speed with the shinai through developing techniquess of the arms and legs, and they attribute the greatest significance to any increase in speed, as slight as it may be.... In training to strike a killing blow, one can not think of small or shortened techniques. Especially... when armor is worn..."

There are also notes in the back of the book that talks about why Musashi woudl criticize the shinai, and it also says that it was invented by Kamiizumi Nobutsuna in the mid 1500's. It was the fukuro shinai

[Charlie]

Kurisu, on the one hand I agree with you. On the other hand, it opens the question: if swordsmanship existed long before kendo, what did pre-kendo swordsmen do to become proficient at fighting in the ways you describe? AFAIK they trained kata exclusively in a variety of weapons and supplemented this with other physical practice, such as folk wrestling, callisthenics, swimming, etc. Let's also remember, I think, that before the Tokugawa era the sword was mostly a secondary or teriary weapon to the bow and sword, AFAIK. I don't believe they whomped on each other freestyle with bokuto the way they did in the movie The Last Samurai or even Gohatto.

Benno, good find. I consult the Harris translation for same. Here is a link:

http://www.samurai.com/5rings/fire/

Harris calls it "bamboo practice sword" and provides this footnote: Bamboo practice sword - There have been practice swords of various kinds throughout the history of Kendo: some are made of spliced bamboo covered with cloth or hide.

[Kitsune]

I found it!!!!!:D
From the Go Rin No Sho Scroll of Fire, introduction, translated by Kenji Tokitsu: "In this world, people are alike in havining too limited a conception of strategy.... Others teach the advantage of slight increases in speed with the shinai through developing techniquess of the arms and legs, and they attribute the greatest significance to any increase in speed, as slight as it may be.... In training to strike a killing blow, one can not think of small or shortened techniques. Especially... when armor is worn..."

There are also notes in the back of the book that talks about why Musashi woudl criticize the shinai, and it also says that it was invented by Kamiizumi Nobutsuna in the mid 1500's. It was the fukuro shinai

But again, kendo was invented during Tokugawa's period (not Ieyasu) that does not mean that shinai did not existed until that era, but at least kendo in most of the ways we know it today, yes... So Musashi san probably had problems with shinai, but can't have them with kendo, thing that did not existed until later.... In the times of peace were samurai needed to be train but not kill each other. Or at least that's what I know about it.

[Bennosuke]

But again, kendo was invented during Tokugawa's period (not Ieyasu) that does not mean that shinai did not existed until that era, but at least kendo in most of the ways we know it today, yes... So Musashi san probably had problems with shinai, but can't have them with kendo, thing that did not existed until later.... In the times of peace were samurai needed to be train but not kill each other. Or at least that's what I know about it.

True, but he had problems with a lot of the techniques that would become incorperated into kendo. In the Wind Scroll he puts down foot work where you keep one foot forward, and foot work where you stomp, saying that in a real fight on real terrain, it wouldn't work, and that foot work should be natural like walking (think kendo kata, which is closer to koryu). What he didn't like about the shinai was that it A. Taught you to shorten up your motions, when they should be really big. While kendo initially teaches big swings, eventually you are taught to speed it up and make smaller strikes. B. He didn't like schools where the students never had to face real fighting situations, because a life and death situation, and a sparring match are very different. That was his big problem with the new age of sword fightering, which kendo would eventualy come from.

Also in a real life or death situation, there really are no rules, which was one of musashi's big things. You could punch your opponent, come late to a fight, throw dirt, or your short sword for that matter.

I think kendo would be useful, because it teaches things like timing ect., but that it really isn't in itself an art ment to raise the best actual sword fighters..

[Kitsune]

Of course kenjutsu is different if you think your life is in danger, but then what's the whole point of inventing kendo then? I think japanese invented kendo no as a sport but for being prepared to a real life situation not only techniques but reflexes that I think is important For me that's the whole point of kendo is prepare you for a real fight but in a safe enviroment...

I don't know if you get me?

[kurisu]

True, but he had problems with a lot of the techniques that would become incorperated into kendo. In the Wind Scroll he puts down foot work where you keep one foot forward, and foot work where you stomp, saying that in a real fight on real terrain, it wouldn't work, and that foot work should be natural like walking (think kendo kata, which is closer to koryu). What he didn't like about the shinai was that it A. Taught you to shorten up your motions, when they should be really big. While kendo initially teaches big swings, eventually you are taught to speed it up and make smaller strikes. B. He didn't like schools where the students never had to face real fighting situations, because a life and death situation, and a sparring match are very different. That was his big problem with the new age of sword fightering, which kendo would eventualy come from.

Also in a real life or death situation, there really are no rules, which was one of musashi's big things. You could punch your opponent, come late to a fight, throw dirt, or your short sword for that matter.

I think kendo would be useful, because it teaches things like timing ect., but that it really isn't in itself an art ment to raise the best actual sword fighters..
The "best actual sword fighters" were, and still are, the guys who train the hardest, relentlessly, for years and years. All the old masters agree that at one point you transcend all techniques and your body reacts and flows naturally. Kendo, the Way of the sword, is a path to get to that point. It’s the point of “formless”. Kenjutsu is not going to take you there.

[Bennosuke]

What do you mean?
Kenjutsu, is what got every real sword fighter there. The kendo we practice is no where close to the "kendo" practiced in the late tokugawa era. Points could be scored in more ways, and you were allowed to do things like trip the opponent, or choke them with their armor.

And Kitsune, I understand what your saying, but Kendo is a budo. Yes it is a martial art, but the purpose is to improve the person, not learn how to fight. Kenjutsu was created as a way to hurt people. The kendo we practice is an offshoot for the twentieth century, ment to preserve the original practices, but to use them to improve people, rather than teach them to hurt each other.

I agree that the sparring aspect of kendo would help you in a sword fight, but kendo is not actually meant to be real sword fighting training. That would be better learned through iaido and koryu

[Charlie]

...but Kendo is a budo. Yes it is a martial art, but the purpose is to improve the person, not learn how to fight.

I would disagree. I think kendo's purpose is to improve the person but that it also does teach one sword-fighting. I think when we get too exclusive in our definitions of budo and other Japanese/Asian concepts we get into dangerous territory.

[ender84567]

I found it!!!!!:D
From the Go Rin No Sho Scroll of Fire, introduction, translated by Kenji Tokitsu: "In this world, people are alike in havining too limited a conception of strategy.... Others teach the advantage of slight increases in speed with the shinai through developing techniquess of the arms and legs, and they attribute the greatest significance to any increase in speed, as slight as it may be.... In training to strike a killing blow, one can not think of small or shortened techniques. Especially... when armor is worn..."

There are also notes in the back of the book that talks about why Musashi woudl criticize the shinai, and it also says that it was invented by Kamiizumi Nobutsuna in the mid 1500's. It was the fukuro shinai

i think this a reference to 'sashi-waza' which would not be legitimate in an actual sword fight. in a real sword fight your cut must cut thru armor before it can damage skin and bone.

[Bennosuke]

I would disagree. I think kendo's purpose is to improve the person but that it also does teach one sword-fighting. I think when we get too exclusive in our definitions of budo and other Japanese/Asian concepts we get into dangerous territory.

:confused:
Could you explain that more extensivly, my pitiful human brain couldn't follow.

[Yamakaze]

LOL god I was moronic just a year ago. :cheeky:

If you can say that every year, you are on the right track. ^_^

Amos

[kurisu]

What do you mean?
Kenjutsu, is what got every real sword fighter there. The kendo we practice is no where close to the "kendo" practiced in the late tokugawa era. Points could be scored in more ways, and you were allowed to do things like trip the opponent, or choke them with their armor.

Lots of practice, lots of basics, lots sparring/fighting against lots of different opponents, lots of sweat, lots of waza, lots of kata, years and years of hard training, this is what kendo is about. This is how all the best swordsmen trained. Modern kendo has taken the best practices from the top schools of the time and merged them into a unified system that has been proven down through the ages as the best way to not only train a swordsman, but to also build character. There are more things in kendo that are done exactly like Musashi teaches in 5 rings, than there are differences. It’s not called the Way of the Sword for nothing. If you get past what you are not trained to do or allowed to do in a dojo, and look at all the rest kendo has to offer, then you will see that kendo most certainly teaches you swordsmanship.

[Charlie]

Lemme take a whack, Ben. What I meant was, it's been my experience that when you try to define these concepts too rigidly, you fail to describe them adequately. A lot of concepts from this culture specifically and Asian culture generally are broadf and subject to multiple interpretations, all of them true. For example: is kendo an art or a sport? It's both. That's a more accurate description. Is ki physical or spiritual? It's both.

So when you say, the purpose of kendo is NOT to teach sword-fighting but ONLY to improve the person, you're being too rigid. Strike the NOTs and the ONLYs from your thinking. Just my opinion, but one that reflects a lot of the thinking, I think, about this type of stuff - it's open to multiple interpretations, all of them able to coexist.

Kurisu, I agree with you in spirit but not the letter of what you're saying. To whit:


Modern kendo has taken the best practices from the top schools of the time and merged them into a unified system that has been proven down through the ages as the best way to not only train a swordsman, but to also build character.

I can't agree. Kendo began to take root and grow as people stopped using swords, so how can you say it is the best way to train sword-fighting? By the time people were really doing kendo, swords were hardly being used - guns were.


There are more things in kendo that are done exactly like Musashi teaches in 5 rings, than there are differences.

How do you know this? Personally, I think you are wrong. What we read in Go Rin No Sho only gives us a vague description of how things were done by Musashi, it does not tell us how they were really done or even how his peers did things. That's by design. We can use Go Rin No Sho as a primary source and follow the spirit of what he is saying but that's it. Example, we can't say, "The Maple Leaf Blow as described by Musashi was done like this..." We don't know! We only have a vague description of it.

[kurisu]

Lemme take a whack, Ben. What I meant was, it's been my experience that when you try to define these concepts too rigidly, you fail to describe them adequately. A lot of concepts from this culture specifically and Asian culture generally are broadf and subject to multiple interpretations, all of them true. For example: is kendo an art or a sport? It's both. That's a more accurate description. Is ki physical or spiritual? It's both.

So when you say, the purpose of kendo is NOT to teach sword-fighting but ONLY to improve the person, you're being too rigid. Strike the NOTs and the ONLYs from your thinking. Just my opinion, but one that reflects a lot of the thinking, I think, about this type of stuff - it's open to multiple interpretations, all of them able to coexist.

Kurisu, I agree with you in spirit but not the letter of what you're saying. To whit:



I can't agree. Kendo began to take root and grow as people stopped using swords, so how can you say it is the best way to train sword-fighting? By the time people were really doing kendo, swords were hardly being used - guns were.



How do you know this? Personally, I think you are wrong. What we read in Go Rin No Sho only gives us a vague description of how things were done by Musashi, it does not tell us how they were really done or even how his peers did things. That's by design. We can use Go Rin No Sho as a primary source and follow the spirit of what he is saying but that's it. Example, we can't say, "The Maple Leaf Blow as described by Musashi was done like this..." We don't know! We only have a vague description of it.

The easy answer is to direct you to The Kendo Reader by Noma Hisashi. In it he goes over lots of things that Musashi wrote that we do today, such as gripping the sword, stance, bearing, attituted, foot work, sen, metsuke. He also goes over the history and the gathering of the top sensei of the time to come up with our kata and kihon. He is a major advocate of kendo being budo and how to pursue kendo with this in mind. If you haven't read it yet, it is a must for every kendoka, if you have read it, I suggest rereading it at least once a year, there is so much in it every time i read it i find something new and helpful.

btw, it can be found on lots of sites, just google it.

[Charlie]

I have a copy. I will re-read it and give your comments some thought. Personally, as was stated in a recent Kendo World article on Musashi, I feel a lot of kendo writers misuse or overstate what can be found or expressed in Go Rin No Sho - as I said, I think we can get the general spirit of things but not specifics; nowhere, as far as I know, did Musashi give instruction in the book on kendo handwork or footwork.

Also, as I said, I agree with you in spirit that kendo is budo and budo is fighting, not just a contest or sport. I also agree in general that randori-type "free" training is the best way to prepare one for actual fighting. But to say that kendo is the best way to produce a swordsman is a bold statement: you're discounting the centuries of swordsmanship training that came before kendo and never had a chance to compete with kendo since, when kendo was made, there were really no more duels.

[kurisu]

nowhere, as far as I know, did Musashi give instruction in the book on kendo handwork or footwork.
.

Water scroll.

[Charlie]

On KENDO though? How could Musashi give instruction on kendo, which had not been invented? Or are you saying the inventors of kendo said, "Well do it the way Musashi said to." But they can't claim that if they didn't study with Musashi or Musashi's students. Go Rin No Sho does not give enough instruction on his style of swordsmanship to actually learn anything through it.

From the Water scroll, Harris translation:


Grip the long sword with a rather floating feeling in your thumb and forefinger, with the middle finger neither tight nor slack, and with the last two fingers tight. It is bad to have play in your hands.

What does this mean, "have play?"


With the tips of your toes somewhat floating, tread firmly with your heels. Whether you move fast or slow, with large or small steps, your feet must always move as in normal walking.

Even if we knew what this meant, it is not kendo footwork.


I dislike the three walking methods known as "jumping-foot", "floating-foot" and "fixed-steps".

What is this?


The first approach is the Middle attitude. Confront the enemy with the point of your sword against his face. When he attacks, dash his sword to the right and "ride" it. Or, when the enemy attacks, deflect the point of his sword by hitting downwards, keep your long sword where it is, and as the enemy renews the attack cut his arms from below. This is the first method.

What does this mean? How is it kendo?


The "Flowing Water Cut" is used when you are struggling blade to blade with the enemy. When he breaks and quickly withdraws trying to spring with his long sword, expand your body and spirit and cut him as slowly as possible with your long sword, following your body like stagnant water. You can cut with certainty if you learn this. You must discern the enemy's grade.

What is this?

There's lots more (http://www.samurai.com/5rings/water/) but do you see what I'm saying? There's no way to know what these techniques are just from reading them and you certainly can't say we do them in kendo.

Respectfully,

Chas.

[Neil Gendzwill]

What does this mean, "have play?"That particular passage about grip is perfectly clear to me, and a good description of a proper grip. To have play means to have any slop in the grip.



The first approach is the Middle attitude. Confront the enemy with the point of your sword against his face. When he attacks, dash his sword to the right and "ride" it. Or, when the enemy attacks, deflect the point of his sword by hitting downwards, keep your long sword where it is, and as the enemy renews the attack cut his arms from below. This is the first method.

What does this mean? How is it kendo?
Middle attitude means chudan. "Dash to the right" I would take to mean strike it down on the right side and then slide in, sorry the Japanese terms escape me but it's not alien-sounding at all. The last part sounds like uchi-o-toshi and then cut him based on the reaction. Not something I've thought of but it makes some sense to me.

[Charlie]

Perhaps, Neil. I myself would be reluctant to say what it means without seeing a Japanese-English translation. As I keep saying, we can perhaps agree with the spirit of "have play" and get the conext but we don't know what it means. After all, a good kendo grip is springy and resilient, not stiff - couldn't this also mean "have play," as in YOU SHOULD "have play" with your grip?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Of course we have a problem when translating from Japanese, particularily archaic Japanese, to English. And I agree with you that for the most part go rin no sho is not useful as a technical manual for kendo and in fact serves as such only to members of the ryu who have some context for it.

However, in this particular example, and assuming the translation is correct, it is very clear. If I were to read that sentence without knowing it was translated, I would interpret that use of "play" as meaning no slop. Another example would be "there should be no play in the universal joint".

[kurisu]

On KENDO though? How could Musashi give instruction on kendo, which had not been invented? Or are you saying the inventors of kendo said, "Well do it the way Musashi said to." But they can't claim that if they didn't study with Musashi or Musashi's students. Go Rin No Sho does not give enough instruction on his style of swordsmanship to actually learn anything through it.

From the Water scroll, Harris translation:



What does this mean, "have play?"



Even if we knew what this meant, it is not kendo footwork.



What is this?



What does this mean? How is it kendo?



What is this?

There's lots more (http://www.samurai.com/5rings/water/) but do you see what I'm saying? There's no way to know what these techniques are just from reading them and you certainly can't say we do them in kendo.

Respectfully,

Chas.

No I'm not trying to imply that we do all of them, only that the basics/fundamentals are the same.

When I mentioned foot work, I was thinking along the lines of what he refers to as complimentary stepping, it sounds a lot like ashi-sabaki to me.

Kendo is built on a lot of these fundamentals.

When he talks about the 5 guards, they are the same guards we use or are taught. It's all spelled out in The Kendo Reader.

I guess it's just a matter of how you look at things. I beleive kendo teaches you how to fight with a katana, so I train with that in mind. This is how my Sensei teaches it, and I hope that when i'm his age, (84), I'll be teaching it the same way.

[Charlie]

Yes, Neil, I see what you mean and I think I agree. Be interesting to see what the Japanese is, though, and how that's translatable. To tell you the truth, Harris is not my favorite translation but it's easy to get full text online. This one (http://www.kampaibudokai.org/Gorinnosho.htm#THE%20WATER%20BOOK) describes the same thing not as "have play" but "slack." Anyone know who the translator is? (My preferred text is the Nihon Services Corporation trans., the one with the bad 1980s cover!)

Well, like I said, Kurisu, we agree in sprit. I, too, think that kendo teaches one to fight with katana. I just think there are some pretty big limits on being able to interpret Go Rin No Sho. I mean, you said the 5 kamae described in Go Rin No Sho are the same five we learn but that is not the case - if I recall, Musashi emphasizes his particular version of chudan, jodan, gedan, RIGHT waki and LEFT waki. We don't learn left waki, our fifth is hasso. I think I'm remembering that correctly, please correct me if I'm wrong. I'd have to look at my copy to be sure but I think the links put down in this thread support this.

[Bennosuke]

And also as I said before, Musashi puts down the ashi sabaki used in Kendo, he says don't leap at your opponent, and don't stamp. We do both in kendo. In Musashi's style, (if I understand the translation correctly), you move normally, like in kendo kata foot work.

Oh, and thanks for the explanation Charlie, you make a good point.

[Charlie]

Thank you, Benno, but, and I'm sorry to be pedantic here:


Musashi puts down the ashi sabaki used in Kendo

We don't know that, either as there was no kendo in the early 1600s!

[Bennosuke]

"Un" <bows head>

[kurisu]

And also as I said before, Musashi puts down the ashi sabaki used in Kendo, he says don't leap at your opponent, and don't stamp. We do both in kendo. In Musashi's style, (if I understand the translation correctly), you move normally, like in kendo kata foot work.

Oh, and thanks for the explanation Charlie, you make a good point.
This is the footwork I am talking about:

An important concept in my school is called complementary ("Yin-Yang") stepping: this means that you do not move one foot alone. You should always move your feet in complementary steps, left-right and right-left when cutting, withdrawing, or warding off a cut. You should not move on one foot alone.

[Bennosuke]

Ah, now Charlie's point hits home.
Kurisu,
When I read that I assume Musashi means that you put one foot in front of the other, not that you have to move the left foot back behind the right foot as quickly as possible. I assumed it would be obvious that if you move one foot, to go further you have to move the other. This difference of interpretation is what Charlie was talking about, we simply can't divine what Musashi really ment.