from nothing to shodan

[aru-ma]

how long does it take in your area/country to get from nothing to shodan? here you have 2 gradings a year which means it'll take you 3 years to get from nothing to 1kyu without jumping grades.

[Karaken]

Aruma, I had only one chance a year. But I received 4 kyu on the first try, ikkyu on second and shodan third. ( 3 years from nothing to shodan )..

[alexpollijr]

In Brazil we have also two grading occasions.

However, the first grade is ikkyu. Six months after (possibly in the same year) you can try the shodan test. Than a full year later nidan. And so on.

So yea, loads of crappy shodan around.

[aru-ma]

alex, 1st grade 1kyu? is that just you or that's the standard?

the grading here in melbourne(VIC) is rather strict, you go through one grading at a time, even if yo do jump grades you still have to do the grading for the grade you get to jump toif you fail to get to the grade your jumping to you still get the grade you passed in, but you normally only get t jump 2 grades and thats rom 6kyu-4kyu and it only happens once in a blue moon.

because of the strict grading method we sometimes get shodan/nidan quality 1kyu, which is good. the only down side is you pay more if you're going for a dan grading

[alexpollijr]

Yes. The first grade you can achieve is Ikkyu (1st kyu). There are no national examinations or certificates for 2kyu and below, just like it is in Japan. There are no grades to 'jump' either.

Ikkyu tst requires Tachi #1 - 3 plus a couple keiko bouts and kirikaeshi on both sides.

So if you have good technique and manners you can achieve shodan in one year in Brazil. The doesn't mean that all shodan and ikkyu are crappy though. Some people stay a while in the ikkyu/shodan grade because of the championship divisions. These are usually pretty good guys.

Ikkyu/Shodan
Nidan/Sandan
Yondan and above
Seniors (50 yrs + )

[Neil Gendzwill]

Canada is the same way - the CKF only grades for ikkyu and above. The official gradings are in late November and early December, so for adults who typically start in September, it's usually a little over 2 years to shodan if they have some talent (they won't be ready to try ikkyu after only two months).

For kids it's different of course as they aren't allowed to try ikkyu until 13 years old I think.

I personally like having shodan be an easy target. Gets all that "black belt" nonsense out of the way early. If you get shodan after two years you have to be pretty delusional to think of yourself as some sort of master. Other martial arts enforce much longer training periods and build up a big mystique around it. But if it takes 5 years or more like judo and karate typically do, really you're still pretty much a novice when you get that shodan.

[Paburo]

-in spain officially you have to go through tests 5 to 1 kyuu after getting shodan. kyuu gradings are sometimes skipable if you show enough ability and training (i.e. you can advance a couple kyuu in one test).
-dan gradings are given only in some seminars, generally only once, or twice a year at the most.
-kyuu gradings are either given within the same dojo, or in most seminars. usually 3 or 4 chances a year.

so if you train enough and assist to enough seminars around the country, you can get ikkyuu in one year.

BUT, the spanish federation says you must at least have been 2 years federated(to me it sounds like you must at least have payed 2 annual fees rather -cash cash-) to be able to try shodan.

so usually it takes 2 years in spain to get shodan if you push it. if you don't then 3-4-n years.

one important thing to note though, is that there are no such dan/kyuu rank divisions here on tournaments. the only divisions are:
-junior: 18 years or less (any rank)
-senior: 19+ (any rank- male and female categories)

if on tournaments not enough 18- kenshi assist, or not enough girls assist, then they have to fight with the rest in a unique 'open' division.

so as you see, it's pretty much war. all against all. here kenshi are not so eager of staying as ikkyuu/shodan for a long time. they will have to face the same opponents on tournaments whether they are sankyuu or godan anyway.

[AlexM]

Neil, you forgot to mention that there are gradings held in the summer time as well (they're held about every 6 months). That's why it's possible to get shodan in little over a year (after two "official" gradings). That's basically what I did to get out of the mudansha division in tournaments.

BTW, you don't have to be 2nd kyu to try for 1st kyu here either.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Summer gradings - must be a Toronto thing. Out in the west there's only the Vancouver grading at the end of November, then the Saskatoon one in February (usually limited to 1 or 2 dan).

[AlexM]

Hey now, that's not say things we'll all regret. Accusing me of being from Toronto (or at the very least their "Sphere of Influence"). Last two summer gradings were held in Quebec City actually.

[JSchmidt]

In the UK, first grading is ikkyu, a la the Japanese system.
In theory, you can reach shodan in 6 months and nidan in 1.5 years...never heard of anyone doing that, though...standard seems to be around 1.5-2 years for shodan, 4+ for nidan.
What does seem a little strange, was that at the last grading in Brussels, I couldnt see any real difference between the UK and the rest of Europe (who uses the kyu-sytem) in terms of quality with regards to Shodan gradings. Makes you wonder if using the kyu-sytem makes people chase gradings too much and only focus on one test at the time and that way limiting a natural progresion?.

Jakob

[kendomushi]

Being on a US military base here in Japan, we test under the Japanese system but our sensei tries to push people along to shodan as soon as they are ready as most of our members will be leaving in 2 to 4 years max before being reassigned. However, they must practice a minimum of 6 months before testing for 1kyu, most have to go about 9 months, the 1 kyu tests are rimed to be 3 months before shodan, so it takes a year on average to reach that level.

[mingshi]

I don't get it.

Why can't they just put beginner, junior, senior and sensei grade in Kendo, just like the old days? Since a lot of tournaments are divided into 1-3Dan and 4Dan+.... and forget all those things about "real kendo starts at 4thDan"...

Wouldn't it be nicer if you can only go for Nidan after 10 years of training?

(Just a strange thought after 24 hrs straight working on thesis :p Have to yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell~)

[emitbrownne]

Why are gradings so important?

[rottunpunk]

i agree

i guess they are good for people who want to see their progress-and they are big in things like judo, karate etc.

but they are a western thing

from doin iai ive learnt that they really arent important, its learning as much as you can and hopefully being good enough to share it with other people, not showing off or whatever...

:p

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by rottunpunk
but they are a western thing

They are sooo not a western thing. Structured levels in Japanese martial arts have been around since long before they were heard of in the west. Especially in kendo, rank and exams for such are taken very seriously by the Japanese.

[rottunpunk]

sorry my mistake

i mean...in iai they do have levels and grades but the whole obsesiveness in getting as high a grade as possible seems to be more of a western attitude
the japanese want to attain as high a level as possible, but thats so they can be better not show they are by a number on a piece of paper..if you know what i mean...i dont think i do really-ah well ill just get my coat

:p

[kendomushi]

I don't know how people act about level in other places, but here I see that a person new to a dojo states their rank and are accepted as whatever they claim unless their skill indicates otherwise. No one worries about getting a higher rank, they just try to do their best. I find this is true not only of the Japanese, but also of the Americans here on the base. Maybe we act more like the Japanese because we are here in Japan, but I hope we are the rule everywhere not the exception.

[aru-ma]

wow, I intially started this thread just to know the grading systems on other places. looks like I got more than I asked for:eek:

[PhilMcLaughlin]

Gradings have a significant role to play because they are used as an objective measure of the Students progression (typically acquisition of technical skills and ability to use them)

Thus when you progress from one grade to another you know that your skills have improved. How quickly you can do this is affected by a complex mix of ability, application, opportunity and tuition - it varies a great deal.

How you view that process is more personal though, for example some people value success at shiai more highly than grade. Some value technical skills more highly than succes at shiai. Some lucky buggers can do both ;-)

Its true that some folks want to be a 'high grade' for the sake of the number in front of the dan and its true that some folks object to the whole system. Your milage may vary, so long as you turn up and train it doesnt really matter too much.


In the UK grades below ikkyu can be awarded at club level but ikkyu is the first 'national level'.

Each year there are 4 opportunities to grade up to san dan split regionally. This year there are 5 because of the wkc and if you're really keen you could travel to mainland europe.

Mind you just being able to get to the test doesnt mean you'll pass any quicker ;-)

[chidokan]

good to see you are still about Phil... do you still get to see Reg and Terry?

Tim Hamilton

[Chusan]

In Germany gradings start with (believe it or not) 6th Kyu (yes, also for adults...), so it needs at least three years to achieve Ikkyu. One more year to Shodan. So you need about four years from nothing to shodan.
More than 90% of all German Kendo-beginners surrender within these first years.

[supernils]

Gradings and Shiai are also practice. No ne spots your flaws as clear as an opponent in Shiai or a gradings-examinator. Thay are also very willing to point them out to you. So whatever the results they are good lessons.

In Sweden you try for kyu in the end of each semester. Starting with the 4th. After recieving 1st you you wait another semester to try fr Shodan.
Our regulation says it has to be minimum 3 months between kyus but we keep that tempo down abit.

[Sinta]

Originally posted by Chusan
In Germany gradings start with (believe it or not) 6th Kyu (yes, also for adults...), so it needs at least three years to achieve Ikkyu. One more year to Shodan. So you need about four years from nothing to shodan.
More than 90% of all German Kendo-beginners surrender within these first years.

Same here in Switzerland. Everyone starts with the 6th Kyu. Gradings are every 2 - 3 months or more. I've been at it for around a half a year and am still thinking if I should try at the next grading... gotta get better though.

But from what I see, many give up after finishing the beginner's courses (8 weeks) or the moment they try the bogu -_- You gotta have commitment to get by in Kendo.

[titus]

Here's something very weird I just found out.

It seems that in Hong Kong (which also serves Macau and mainland China because they have no IKF affiliate) they only grade from shodan, up!

There are no kyu gradings at all, except unofficially by clubs, not even ikkyu. This could work well, as I'll probably go from China to HK in January to try to get my shodan grade much earlier than normal. Maybe they have a very high failure rate because of this though?

[alexpollijr]

There are no kyu gradings at all, except unofficially by clubs, not even ikkyu. This could work well, as I'll probably go from China to HK in January to try to get my shodan grade much earlier than normal. Maybe they have a very high failure rate because of this though?

Either that or a load of really crappy shodan/nidan around the country.

[Neil Gendzwill]

CKF used to be the same way, I never tested for any kyu. Now they test for ikkyu.

[Kendoka]

Originally posted by PhilMcLaughlin
Gradings have a significant role to play...

Well said, er, or written.

[chidokan]

so long as they are not the thing that drives you to do MA, I agree....;)

Tim Hamilton

[mingshi]

Originally posted by alexpollijr
Either that or a load of really crappy shodan/nidan around the country.

I'd second that. In addition gradings there's are waaaay overcharged (see my complain on the thread Financial Contribution to the Jedi Council (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=233)).
Kyu Shinsa is labelled as "children's Kyu exam"...

BUT

All foreign Kendo Feds should have kept the pre-Shodan gradings time-span (and *fees*) consistent. People are just following the rules, so you can't really blame them for being a crappy Dan grade.

p.s. When you consider Shodan is just the beginning, things ain't that bad. hmmm, must.... stop... being jealous...

[misterkurukuru]

Shodan does not mean much. IN the US peoples kendo does not really change till they hit 3 dan, and even then they learn that they dont know anything. Thats why i laugh at people all the time because they they think they know so much about kendo when the dont really know anyhting. 8 dan senseis work on basics...why??? because they dont know anyhting and they want to learn...doing kendo for a long time teaches you that you did not know half has much as you thought you did! And talk your trash people, because that just shows that you do not know anything yet!

[Old Warrior]

I don't think 2 - 3 years of work to obtain shodan rank is "meaningless" or "nothing". For most, it represents a substantial dedication of nonwork time to a personal, rather than a family pursuit. Also, not everyone who embarks on the journey of learning Kumdo has the talent or physical skill to ever be "really good". The rank, is what it is, a representation that the holder met the requirements to earn it. Personally, as a 54 year old desk jockey, who started studying the art 5 months ago -it would be a significant achievement.

[angryshinai]

yeah ive got no idea of how the grading system works in kendo. But in my opinion anything that can motivate you to train harder is a good thing.

[Karaken]

Mr.K - just think about 4000 mile desert trip across Sahara. If there are no road signs and no milestones, one will be hard pressed to be motivated to finish the trip or even start the trip.
Granted, Kendo has no finish line but I think Grading has great value to let people know where they have been and where they are now.. Whom you are traveling with and how do we generally compare progress- Not just a whole lot of sand and nothing else..

Center is my salvation.

[dorkusxmaximus]

Originally posted by titus
Here's something very weird I just found out.

It seems that in Hong Kong (which also serves Macau and mainland China because they have no IKF affiliate) they only grade from shodan, up!

There are no kyu gradings at all, except unofficially by clubs, not even ikkyu. This could work well, as I'll probably go from China to HK in January to try to get my shodan grade much earlier than normal. Maybe they have a very high failure rate because of this though?


Then those who become a shodan over in China and HK equals that of a go kyu. All i have to say is that they suck.

[KATSUJIN]

We have gradings twice a year here...but I managed to get my Nidan in 3 years.....

[Crash]

Shodan in 1 year????? What acheivement is that? A long time ago, black belts of any kind were rare and special. Now its seems they give them out for nothing.

[Crash]

Shodan does not mean much. IN the US peoples kendo does not really change till they hit 3 dan, and even then they learn that they dont know anything. Thats why i laugh at people all the time because they they think they know so much about kendo when the dont really know anyhting. 8 dan senseis work on basics...why??? because they dont know anyhting and they want to learn...doing kendo for a long time teaches you that you did not know half has much as you thought you did! And talk your trash people, because that just shows that you do not know anything yet!
Good point. I read an interview with Naoki Eiga, 11th WKC champ, and he says he rarely spars. All he does is work the basics. That is the most important thing.(He is also extremely humble.)

[JSchmidt]

"Shodan in 1 year????? What acheivement is that?"

Shodan is a beginners level. The whole magical "black belt" thing is a western invention.

Jakob

[AlexM]

Shodan in 1 year????? What acheivement is that? A long time ago, black belts of any kind were rare and special. Now its seems they give them out for nothing.

Actually, I heard that the Japanese were notorious for giving out rankings at the drop of a hat sometimes (there are some lousy 7 and 8 dans in Japan apparently... older people). It got to the point where they've really had to get stricter about giving out the higher rankings. Which gives you an idea of how much stock the Japanese put into "rank" (or rather how inconsistent Japanese attitude towards rankings are).

Recent example: Only 2 people were awarded 7th dan during the WKC grading held in Glasgow. One of those people (out of a group of 19) was a Japanese cop (so a semi-professional). The IKF has started getting stricter and more consistent in the handing out of gradings in recent years.

Since shodan is really "nothing" doing it quickly feels like more of an achievement than waiting three years. I got mine after a year in bogu... however, I have to wait two years (minimum) for nidan in Canada, so I'll hopefully get ni-dan after a 3 years in bogu. Which pretty much puts me back in the normal experience range for most countries' nidan (well, among those that start as adults).

[Crash]

"Shodan in 1 year????? What acheivement is that?"

Shodan is a beginners level. The whole magical "black belt" thing is a western invention.

Jakob
Actually, the term "black belt" came from a saying that (roughly translated), you go to the mountains as a beginner wearing a white belt, when you return, trained, you belt has turned black.

[sminki]

It took me almost 3 years to get shodan. Then again, I belonged to a dojang which tested every kyu starting 9 kyu. I got my nidan a year after getting shodan.

In terms of my kendo, I felt "strongest" when I was an ikkyu :ko: . I think it was that I had looked forward to getting shodan for so long (it seemed so long) and I felt that I was ready and able and I was going to take that "black belt" challenge and win. GRRR

Ever since getting shodan (and subsequently nidan), I realize that it's really nothing. So I can understand when people say "shodan/nidan (even sometimes sandan) is nothing" as I feel the same way. I'm sure I'll feel that way as godan/rokudan, etc. if and when I become such. Having said that, I also understand when people say "shodan is an achievement" as I know how many quit kendo even before reaching the kyu levels. I do believe that once one becomes yudansha, such notions are tossed out the window (at least for him/herself).

For me, getting shodan in 3 years was a good thing. Gave me a lot of time to get familiar and understand things better. Then again, getting shodan in 1 year and having to wait 2 years for nidan may be the same thing. We all have different paths, timelines in kendo. All it matters is that we get to a higher level, not just to strive for a number on your dan certificate. Right?

[HEIJO SHIN]

In France its the same, 3 years for the same reason's mentioned above. But over here its a good standard, and you have to have all the basics to a high standard.
After that its not all about technique but, but strength attitude, and a deeper insight (chakugan,kokyu.maai,kihaku and zanshin)

[Old Warrior]

"Having said that, I also understand when people say "shodan is an achievement"

All I can say is that, for me, if I make it to Shodan (I'm at 2 geup), it will be something that I will consider a significant personal acheivement. Starting Kumdo at 54, with 2 bum knees, and being the first non Korean to have been awarded such a rank by Master Seong - would bring me considerable pleasure. Setting aside the time to go to 3-4 classes a week for 2 years, at this point in my life, has been a real struggle, although I have enjoyed every class. Getting there and focusing has been the challenge. But most of all, I can't wait to get rid of my white uniform and be allowed to wear a blue one.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Actually, the term "black belt" came from a saying that (roughly translated), you go to the mountains as a beginner wearing a white belt, when you return, trained, you belt has turned black.
Pure crap. There's a variation on that story about your belt turning dirty with years of training too, which is also crap.

Kyu/dan and the colours to go with them were invented by Jigoro Kano for judo, and have since been adapted by many Japanese martial arts. Originally in kendo, pre-ww2, shodan was the equivalent of menkyo kaiden in some old koryu, roughly godan or rokudan by current standards. Times change and now shodan is 2 or 3 years of casual study.

[sminki]

But most of all, I can't wait to get rid of my white uniform and be allowed to wear a blue one.

Just to forewarn you (as I'm sure you've seen), new blue keiko-gi and hakama will turn you blue after every practice for a while. I do admit that it's much better looking than the white.

My last two practices with master Seong was such fun. I can't wait until I practice with him again. It's so nice to practice with people out of your normal routine. Livens things up, you know? (Although practice with Seong sensei is always a pleasure)

[Crash]

Pure crap. There's a variation on that story about your belt turning dirty with years of training too, which is also crap.

Kyu/dan and the colours to go with them were invented by Jigoro Kano for judo, and have since been adapted by many Japanese martial arts. Originally in kendo, pre-ww2, shodan was the equivalent of menkyo kaiden in some old koryu, roughly godan or rokudan by current standards. Times change and now shodan is 2 or 3 years of casual study.
It's an old proverb that my grandfather told me a long time ago. But thank you for the history lesson, and thank you so much for your tact. It's people like you that make forums a joy!

[Neil Gendzwill]

It's people like you that make forums a joy!
Sorry if I came off a little grumpy, but when you see the dirty white belt myth for the 438th time... instructors in strip-mall dojos have been selling that line of hooey to their students forever.

[Karaken]

Just to forewarn you (as I'm sure you've seen), new blue keiko-gi and hakama will turn you blue after every practice for a while. I do admit that it's much better looking than the white.

My last two practices with master Seong was such fun. I can't wait until I practice with him again. It's so nice to practice with people out of your normal routine. Livens things up, you know? (Although practice with Seong sensei is always a pleasure)

When did U go Sminki? Let me know next time maybe we'll have three some with OW :-)

center

[taiwnezboi]

Just to forewarn you (as I'm sure you've seen), new blue keiko-gi and hakama will turn you blue after every practice for a while. I do admit that it's much better looking than the white.

My last two practices with master Seong was such fun. I can't wait until I practice with him again. It's so nice to practice with people out of your normal routine. Livens things up, you know? (Although practice with Seong sensei is always a pleasure)

nah.. blue is overrated.. all white with the black stripes is the pimpest.. Korean national team baby! :silly:

sminki: what dojang are you from?

[m_french]

maybe we'll have three some with OW :-)

center
must rid bad mental picture.....AAAARRRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!! :beard:

[Old Warrior]

Yeah, 3 grown men hitting each other till they are bloody and senseless. It is a bad mental picture and even a worse reality. And we'd enjoy it immensely - you're welcome to join us.

[sminki]

When did U go Sminki? Let me know next time maybe we'll have three some with OW :-)

center

I was there on the President's day Saturday. I also went to the one in East Brunswick on the following Friday. We should have a "threesome" with OW one of these days. Maybe you and I should gang up on OW.

Frenchy - join the fun!

Taiwanezboi, I belong to NYCKC. Blue is not overrated. Although I'm Korean myself, on your opinion on how the white with the racing stripes is the "pimpest" - yes, it is pimpy. no, it's not that cool. :wink: I'm quite sure that no one on the Korean national team wears that white with stripes uniform except during WKC.

Oh, OW, on this white uniform thing. My old dojang used to be the opposite. Only shodan and above could wear the white with the stripes. Everyone else had to wear blue. Of course, only one person out of the shodan and above group actually opted to wear the white with black stripes.

[taiwnezboi]

I was there on the President's day Saturday. I also went to the one in East Brunswick on the following Friday. We should have a "threesome" with OW one of these days. Maybe you and I should gang up on OW.

Frenchy - join the fun!

Taiwanezboi, I belong to NYCKC. Blue is not overrated. Although I'm Korean myself, on your opinion on how the white with the racing stripes is the "pimpest" - yes, it is pimpy. no, it's not that cool. :wink: I'm quite sure that no one on the Korean national team wears that white with stripes uniform except during WKC.

Oh, OW, on this white uniform thing. My old dojang used to be the opposite. Only shodan and above could wear the white with the stripes. Everyone else had to wear blue. Of course, only one person out of the shodan and above group actually opted to wear the white with black stripes.

I think the white w/ black stripes is the best ^^ and exactly what you said.. I'm not allowed to wear it until I'm a black belt.. so it won't be for a long long time~ =P

[taiwnezboi]

oh and I think OW was talking about just the regular white uniform.. not one with the stripes.. I'm the one that brought up the stripes =P

[sminki]

oh and I think OW was talking about just the regular white uniform.. not one with the stripes.. I'm the one that brought up the stripes =P

No. OW's uniform does have the stripes.

[Old Warrior]

And I look like a prison inmate with bad pants. The only thing that makes it bearable is being surrounded by others wearing the same ugly outfit.

[sminki]

And I look like a prison inmate with bad pants. The only thing that makes it bearable is being surrounded by others wearing the same ugly outfit.

Haha. Being a bit harsh on your uniform, aren't you? Actually master Seong gave me a set when he had first opened his school in Closter. I've never worn it (well, it was two sizes too big to begin with).

Oh, when I visited the EB dojang, they all had the same pattern/color doh. That was kinda cool. Also, I've got a nito match on video for ya.

[taiwnezboi]

And I look like a prison inmate with bad pants. The only thing that makes it bearable is being surrounded by others wearing the same ugly outfit.

Can't believe you don't like it... it's a privelege to wear that

[chidokan]

think I'll stick to traditional plain black/blue/grey stuff....not keen on those 'go faster stripes', you can see them move....and I give the game away enough without extra hints to my opponents...

[m_french]

We should have a "threesome" with OW one of these days.

Frenchy - join the fun!


Hopefully I will not have the oppertunity to visit The stonewall dojo any time soon....but by all means start with out me.

As far as the gradings thing goes, just put it in perspective. Everytime I feel I am improving I go and keiko with some one like usagi-hito and realize I have a long ways to go.

[ellobo]

why do u think they'll give shodan to anyone? If they are kyu-less, that doesn't mean they are eye-less...

[deathbykendo]

wow, I intially started this thread just to know the grading systems on other places. looks like I got more than I asked for:eek:

Well there you go, and I though every country started there gradings at 6 kyu.
Looks like here in Australia we might be the exception rather than the rule.

Kirby

[kanyil]

shodan is just that, "beginner's (aka initial) dan". we are able to get shodan in 1 year but anyone under sandan will be treated like a mudansha.

[Nanbanjin]

Well there you go, and I though every country started there gradings at 6 kyu.
Looks like here in Australia we might be the exception rather than the rule.

Kirby
I think that IKF regulations only kick in from 1st Dan.
Anything below that is up to the regional governing body, in our case the AKR.

[Lloromannic]

Anything below that is up to the regional governing body, in our case the AKR.
Here in Mexico the test below shodan is a Kyu test, you test and they give you what they think you deserve (Usually you jump 1 kyu).

[chidokan]

just finished a seminar with my teacher...he classes anyone under 6 dan as a beginner. At 92 (and 8 dan hanshi in kendo and iaido) God knows what he thinks of shodan.... :wink:

[Banza Joe]

just finished a seminar with my teacher...he classes anyone under 6 dan as a beginner. At 92 (and 8 dan hanshi in kendo and iaido) God knows what he thinks of shodan.... :wink:

Didn't think you practiced kendo anymore, cos of your bad knees.
Thought you just did the iai nowadays.........

[Old Warrior]

just finished a seminar with my teacher...he classes anyone under 6 dan as a beginner. At 92 (and 8 dan hanshi in kendo and iaido) God knows what he thinks of shodan.... :wink:

I seem to get the sense from this thread and others that while there is a clearly defined role that a junior is to play, that mandates how he is to act toward his teachers and seniors, there is no obligation runing in the other direction. It is, as if the teacher is a monarch, without obligation to treat the student with respect and dignity and to do his best to teach all that he knows.

I am not making a value judgment, just an observation. If it should take 4-5 years to become shodan (as suggested by jmarsten for someone who has made a modest commitment of time) it strikes me that the person reaching this level is entitled to some level of respect for the acheivement, despite the fact that there may be much higher ranks to aspire to and greater skill levels to reach. Someone who states that a legitimate 6th dan is "a beginner" is either being facetious or somewhat arrogant (whether deserved or not). I don't think hubris is a virtue in any culture.

[hyuna]

I seem to get the sense from this thread and others that while there is a clearly defined role that a junior is to play, that mandates how he is to act toward his teachers and seniors, there is no obligation runing in the other direction. It is, as if the teacher is a monarch, without obligation to treat the student with respect and dignity and to do his best to teach all that he knows.
Seniors and teachers do have an obligation to juniors and students. The nature of it does not, however, have anything to do with respect or dignity. The "respect" one gets for the effort it takes to be shodan is that one is taught stuff that is taught to shodan. There is also the problem of egotism. Obligations are exchanged in terms of magnitude, so there is always the question of measuring the value of teaching and who gets to determine it.

[Old Warrior]

Seniors and teachers do have an obligation to juniors and students. The nature of it does not, however, have anything to do with respect or dignity. The "respect" one gets for the effort it takes to be shodan is that one is taught stuff that is taught to shodan. There is also the problem of egotism. Obligations are exchanged in terms of magnitude, so there is always the question of measuring the value of teaching and who gets to determine it.

If this is a reflection of "traditional" mentality, it is clearly an anachronism. In a world where "human rights" have paramount value and "slavery and aparteid" have no place, I reject the notion that the teacher, in return for the deference given, does not "owe" the student a measure of dignity and the respect due a student who comes prepared and ready to learn. The student owes the teacher his undivided attention and best effort in return for which the teacher has a concommitant duty to do his best to teach. In a world where teachers have been slaughtered just for being teachers, there is a certain privilege that exists for simply having a place to pass on to others, that which you have struggled to master. The immortality that comes from this process and the profound effect you can have upon the student - is a reward, that may equal the value received by the student.

[chidokan]

No arrogance involved. Watching closely you can see a definite step between his level and his 7th/8th dan students.The gap is as obvious as that between say shodan and yondan. As godan myself I honestly do feel like a beginner watching, its that massive a difference. Consider say 20 years of training of a couple of hours a couple of times a week to 80 years of twice a day and most of the weekend with top instruction. I find it similar to watching a local pub footie team play Brazil. To say godan are still beginners in comparison is therefore a fair statement. This is not criticising what they have done, it only puts it into perspective. It would be unusual in Japan to find a teacher at this level, in fact one of our visitors, although a godan who won the prefectural championship, was extremely reluctant to teach until forced to do so.This is understandable seeing his own teacher was present (7th dan) and his teachers' teacher.
The obligation going downover is there, but not obvious to students sometimes. Does your teacher ever miss a class? Does he ever fail to challenge your skill level? When does he fail to answer a question? Does he make you think? Have you passed his skill level, because if so he has succeeded in his job and will be happy.

[Old Warrior]

The obligation going downover is there, but not obvious to students sometimes. Does your teacher ever miss a class? Does he ever fail to challenge your skill level? When does he fail to answer a question? Does he make you think? Have you passed his skill level, because if so he has succeeded in his job and will be happy.

I absolutely agree with these rhetorical questions. I simply have a problem with Arthur's seeming acceptance of a "traditional" approach where one does not question, is supposed to be awed by an unapproacable godlike figure that has deigned to teach you. This may have been the historical "way", but its not appropriate for modern day learning.

[hyuna]

The obligation going downover is there, but not obvious to students sometimes. Does your teacher ever miss a class? Does he ever fail to challenge your skill level? When does he fail to answer a question? Does he make you think? Have you passed his skill level, because if so he has succeeded in his job and will be happy.
I absolutely agree with these rhetorical questions. I simply have a problem with Arthur's seeming acceptance of a "traditional" approach where one does not question, is supposed to be awed by an unapproacable godlike figure that has deigned to teach you. This may have been the historical "way", but its not appropriate for modern day learning.
Note that none of those items have anything to do with a personal respect for the student, per se.

I accept and understand the existance of that kind of behavior. I accept and understand the logic behind it as part of a larger culture. I do not believe such behavior is appropriate outside of its cultural context, however.

Rarely does any kind of behavior that is not returned precisely in kind make sense when looked at in isolation, and this one is no exception. The key is that the senior is not truly free to choose how they act in this culture: they cannot be randomly or wantonly abusive towards the junior. They are bound by the expectations of their seniors, guided by the behavior of their peers, and constrained, in general, by the rules of the society and by what it means to be sempai. Sempai/kohai does not work in the West -- not only because people are unfamiliar with the tradition, but because the Western values of personal empowerment and individual responsibility is entirely antagonistic towards sempai/kohai. It cannot work in any healthy and sustainable way in the West.

However, the culture of kendo is obviously an outgrowth of the culture of Japan. Therefore there is a question that everyone must answer for themself: is kendo a "traditional martial art" or "recreation/sport"? If the former, learning the cultural tradition is necessary if one wants to say that they are learning kendo. We may not agree with the attitudes, and they may not even be the best teaching methods, but they are part of kendo and they inform the methods of kendo. To learn and understand the tradition is part of understanding kendo. If, however, kendo is "recreation," then only technique is necessary and we can be unconcerned with tradition and replace traditional methods with methods we consider to be more appropriate. Obviously, this is not black/white, but there is nevertheless a tension between the two extremes of returning to koryu or going to olympic kendo.

I believe it is essential to understand sempai/kohai to understand some aspects of kendo. To understand means to be able to accept, assuming one believes in the inherent competence of all people. That does not mean that we must ourselves live in accordance with sempai/kohai or even that practice has to fit in that mold. Perhaps that will clarify the mode of "acceptance" that I have for the junior/senior relationship.

[chidokan]

the kendo club I visit has serious problems because of this. The oldest teacher, who is quite traditional, has been ill and allowed another to take over. Now he is back there seems to be a lack of respect, and this is compounded by another student who is better than the guy who was teaching. This guy is also totally sports oriented rather than traditional, so there are internal problems. Due to injury, I cannot go as often as I would like, and should possibly have taken over the class had I been fit enough. So where does the club go? Does it become a totally competition mad club only chasing trophies? Certainly not how the club has ran for the last 20 odd years...
For new 'sports only' clubs dropping the sensei title for coach/captain and sempai for assistant coach will be the only way to work. And at that point you can join the Olympics along with all the rules bending etc that goes with it. And dont call it kendo please.... :smiley:

[Old Warrior]

I believe it is essential to understand sempai/kohai to understand some aspects of kendo. To understand means to be able to accept, assuming one believes in the inherent competence of all people. That does not mean that we must ourselves live in accordance with sempai/kohai or even that practice has to fit in that mold. Perhaps that will clarify the mode of "acceptance" that I have for the junior/senior relationship.

I studied Shotokan Karate in the 1960's. The people who taught me were trained by men born at the turn of the century or before. I remember being hit with a shinai when my knees began to shake from being in kiba dachi too long. We did push-ups on our knuckes, on concrete floors. When you were shown a joint lock the pressure went on until you "tapped out". I fit in fine and I had no problems with the system. Forty years later you can still see my oversized knuckles that were once a mass of bone like tissue. I learned to do things that most humans would never attempt and I was a stone cold warrior. I remember fighting four people at once and the opponents were threatened by sensei of what was in store for them if they did not come at me with everything they had.

These lessons have helped shape what I am today (whatever that may be). Nevertheless, the school would be shut down and the teachers prosecuted if they conducted themselves in the "way" I was taught. Would I change the course of my life for a "kinder and gentler" martial arts education - not one bit. Do I don't like how soft my children have become, as adults - nope. Do I accept the passing of the time when the "way" I was taught was acceptable - with remorse.

As an aside, my friends and relatives have no idea what is beneath the surface of the affable educated face that they know to be me. But, I accept that the times have changed and unless we are prepared to allow the martial arts to be taught only in secret societies by a scant few - we need to accept the reality and be grateful we learned our lessons at a different time.

[chidokan]

tell the youth of today and they dont believe you.... :smiley:
My dojo had a tarmac floor back then. Needless to say my feet and hands got quite tough. It also probably explains why my knees are shot....

[fe-taru tora]

I myself am 25 and I think that the old ways of teaching martial arts should still be in effect. It says in countless books that the beatings were not of the violent kind, I know it sounds a little moronic but it is true, buddism was one of the main "religions" of ancient japan and when they hit a student it was not to hurt them but to release mushin, the body of no mind. I think things have been watered down a bit. I'm not a nut case but I would not mind having my sempai slam me with shinai if it makes me that much more in tune with Kendo. It is something, in my mind, that you would come to expect, you are learning a form of self defense and the person against you is'nt going to "go lightly" on you in the real world even if it is Kendo, I would pull my Japanese steel if I had to. It among other thing are my house defense.