Judges who shouldn't judge

[MaxPayneWayne]

Am I the only here who thinks that there are some people who shouldn't judge? Some of them are just terrible. They can't even see or hear anything. The only thing they notice in a shiai is another shinpan raising a flag, then that fool raises the same color because he is probably thinking "oh if he raised it, then i guess it was a point." and what's this thing with sensei who are doing the judging in a tournament when their own student is in the shiai. gee do i see a little bit of a conflict of interest? dammit whenever a sensei is judging a match with his student in it, the sensei raises the flag for his student for alot of cheap points hoping that the other two blind and deaf shinpan will raise the flag too. OF COURSE A SENSEI IS GOING TO WANT HIS STUDENT TO WIN!!!!!! all this favoritism is rediculous. and people need to learn how to judge. i hate seeing those shinpan who give kote-ari when the shinai hit the knuckle part of the kote instead of the wrist. oh yeah, just because it makes a good sound it's a point?? and if it's just so damn fast that they couldn't see, then they should cross their flags to indicate that they didn't see it, (of course i bet half of the shinpan don't even know they can do that, and the ones who do know probably don't even know that the red flag is supposed to cross over the white flag) or they shouldn't judge. i hate seeing people lose because of bad judging and/or favortism. i really don't get it. if these shinpan are really "sensei" then they should know all this, if not, then they shouldn't be judging. am i being too harsh on the shinpan? of course not! winning and losing should depend on that person's skill, and skill only. it shouldn't depend on the shinpan!

[misterkurukuru]

I agree with you! there are a lot of judges that suck out there! There are senseis that need to go to shinpan seminars!!!!!!!!!!
I also hate it when people that are not as good as you are judging for you! judges are gay!!!!

[KhawMengLee]

judges are gay!!!!

I think you should watch your mouth. What you are saying is very disrespectful.


In my first shiai I lost by a hiki kote which hit my knuckle not the scoring part of the kote. But that's part of kendo for you, in the end, you have to look good and strong for the shinpan.

Personally I think that only yondan plus should shinpan...the last tournament I went to had a sandan and he basically was just following the call of the others.

p.s. what's with the homophobia kuru? Or are you just insecure about your sexuality?

MENG

[misterkurukuru]

maybe i am just young, but now a days saying "gay" has nothing to do with Homosexuals, just like dope does not mean weed and so on. what you say is true about looking strong, but after you have done kendo for a long time (over 15 years) and you become a higher rank (3 dan and above) you see a lot of stuff that shouldnt be going on, well going on. i think the judges that cheat or turn a blind eye need to either be in charge of the tasuki or just sit at the judges table and eat bento!

[misterkurukuru]

oh yea!!!! some yondans should not be aloud to judge either!Every judge should have to go to a shinpan seminar in Japan every year, that way they will be more up to date on rules ,movent patterns, and Yukodatotsu(we need a lot of work here)!

[alexpollijr]

Rants.

[qpuppy]

Originally posted by MaxPayneWayne
OF COURSE A SENSEI IS GOING TO WANT HIS STUDENT TO WIN!!!!!!

i hate seeing those shinpan who give kote-ari when the shinai hit the knuckle part of the kote instead of the wrist. oh yeah, just because it makes a good sound it's a point?? and if it's just so damn fast that they couldn't see, then they should cross their flags to indicate that they didn't see it, (of course i bet half of the shinpan don't even know they can do that, and the ones who do know probably don't even know that the red flag is supposed to cross over the white flag) or they shouldn't judge.


Hmmmm... I find you to be very disrepectful. Yes, even though, most senseis would like to see there student to win, but I believe most sensei does not give dodgy cut to a player in a shiai just because it's their student. I agree there are some shipans who is alittle bit dodgy and need more exprience, (usually in Australia they are nidan senpais) but sensei level when shinpaning are a lot more professional when it somes to these events. My sensei, is a very tough shinpan. He gives does not ever favour just because it's his sensei... He is the type of sensei when he rather see his student fight 'good, straight and clean' and lose than win with a 'sloppy and messy kendo'

Next, when you comment about not seeing the kote ari but still give the point. Well, I think you should rethink that. If you believe that, if you cant see the hit you should not give a point. If so, than all the shinpans (all 8 dan) in the AJKC should not be allow to shinpans (go watch the 50th AJKC, you'll know what I mean).... There is alot more to been about to see the hit. I know for a fact that there are more than just seeing to the hit to win a point. There is also the sound and zanshin. I have been told by a 8 dan sensei once that in shiai (especally in the AJKC) they only use about 20% in seeing a hit while 80% on sound and zanshin. If the shinpans give a kote ari, and didnt see the hit, the point is mostly give becasue of the sound and zanshin. Also, many shinpans do give points as well even if it hits the knuckle, as long it is a clear hit, right sound, good zanshin, and clear the hit quite well... than yes they will give it...

Yes, I also think that many points are given to dodgy hits, also no points give to clear hits.... this is something we all have to take in as part of kendo. There are some inexperience, and there are more than just seeing the hit to give a point, but it is not senseis are to blame. Soooo... i really believe you should rethink the concept of shinpans....

cheers

PS... Just wondering... if you believe shinpan is so easy, why do you do the shinpans.. or even go shinpan in the AJKC... (sorry to be mean)

[James]

I think you guys have obviously not tried refereeing.
It takes a great deal of concentration, at least as much as the people fighting. A small lapse in concentration by someone who has been concentrating solidly for several fights is to be expected. Plus obviously kendo can be very fast, a judge might be momentarily at a difficult angle and sometimes it is just a difficult call. That's why there are three of them out there remember.

Everyone, sooner or later, gets hit on the elbow and a kote is scored, it is part of kendo, get over it.
There are better and worse judges, but wanting a student to win, doesn't mean judges naturally sink into depraved favouritism.

[KhawMengLee]

heh, one of my sempai was telling me exactly this, in light of my habit of attacking straight from the word hajime. He told me not to attack so often like that as most of the time the shinpan would be adjusting themselves(eg. looking down at where they are positioned etc) and could miss your strike.

[bronxjragon]

I hate when 4th Dan judges ref a match. I saw one guy just seeing what the other judges would do and then do the same thing. The man should be castrated.

[Tato]

Hmmm, Bronx, I belive that you should watch the words you use: "castrated" is not really polite, even if that shinpan had trouble doing his job.

And from the moment where you use human shinpan you must accept human weaknes, there's no other option.

Rei

[munenmuso]

Yeah, and it takes a lot of balls to assume the role of a shinpan, having said that, castrating will never help to improve the situation it will only worsen it.

Ouch.. even the thought of it is enough for psychological torture.

Down with castration!!!It's also illegal

[misterkurukuru]

I do judge, and it it not an easy thing that is why judges must go to the seminars. And if i do judge maybe you can guess what my rank is....and bronx, if that fool was just raising the falg when other guys were doing it, he needs to go eat a bento outside or something and not be let back in!

[bronxjragon]

I'm assuming none of you are from the Greater North Eastern Kendo federation of U.S.A.

[munenmuso]

In my case it's obvious. the flag states it..

[Paburo]

i've made some ippons that the judges didn't see.
i've received ippons that judges didn't see either.
sometimes shinpans make mistakes. we all do. whether they see a point or not, it's a matter of luck sometimes. get over it.

now, about favouritism...

i'm not gonna say names, but here in spain in some tournaments sometimes father is shinpan of son, and you can see the father helping the son by raising a lot of flags. but the father is alone. no matter how much the he raises the flag, the other two shinpan will do their job consciously.

in most cases, when there is favouritism, usually only one shinpan is implicated.

try to convince the other two of your good skill and stop whining then.

if you do perfect kendo, even the blindest shinpan will give you the ippon.

[misterkurukuru]

Paburo,
at tournaments i have been in, if a judges son or daughter is going to fight, they sub in a new judge for them for just that match.I have seen this done for a six year old child and for adult(children of senseis) as well. maybe you can tell your judges about this option...it never hurts to ask right??

[Paburo]

i DON'T have to ask. it's pretty obvious dude.
i didn't mean all shinpan here STAY when their sons/daughters step in to the shiaijo. in fact, only one person here does that. all of the others do rei, step out and trade places with another shinpan.
but like i said before, i'm not gonna say names. to each his own.

[Karaken]

Guys, let's define IPPON first.

1. Correct posture
2. Correct hit
3. Correct Kiai
4. Correct Janshin

I used to think many Shipan suck too. I even see AJKF Shipans make mistake thru wonders of SLOW-Motion video ( Especially on Miyazaki - twice in one match ).
Anyway, I recently started to judge myself and man, it really isn't easy. Yes, I attended Shinpan seminar too but attending that once doesn't help much to follow fast moving shinai and judge whether they had good form or hit right spot. Well, Kiai and Janshin aren't so hard to judge.

Any rate, if you're not really judging but watching from the side, I think you can make a better call. Once you're on the floor, you're under a lot of pressure when other judges raise ( or decline ) the flag and it's all up to you and you can't decide....( or remember ).

Guess it'll take time to develop that skill. In the meanwhile, be nice guys, that guy meesing up your taikai might be me..:-)

[nodachi]

Whatever happened to winning is not important? Why get pissed at the shimpan if he/she goofs? Maybe that means you just need to be better next time and not let the opponent get a shot in. If the shimpan misses a call on a hit of yours that is good, get another one!

A lot of people here strongly say Kendo is Budo, Kendo is Budo! If that is the case, then the score shouldn't mean anything. And for you Kendo is Sport people, don't rely on the shimpan being good at calling. If they aren't, you need to rise above that and show them better Kendo. Don't let your opponent score, and you score better.

Problem solved, it's not the shimpan the decides the match, it is the Kendoka (or players, depending on your school of thought).

Not meaning to piss people off, just trying to remain neutral... :)

[ben]

I have a little haiku for people who hate losing because of "bad shimpan."

Get over it please.
Get over it right now.
Get over it. Get.

[Critical_Bill]

i second that motion.
and since i can't top that.." what ben said!"

[aru-ma]

I personally do get a a little upset if i loose over a bad decission but there's a really old saying that people rarely use these days and that is "oh well...".
In saying that I get upset if I win by bad shimpan decission even worse, winning because the other person gets 4 hansoku from jogai (pushed out of the shiai jo), I dont like winning this way because it just shows that I cant do an ippon quality cut in a shiai.

[misterkurukuru]

has any of you guys ever won at a big shiai???????????????
If anyone is a national champion, runner up in a national tournament, or a world team member for their country, well they know what i am talking about...if you are not...well then..............
sounds to me like you guys need to practice some more and stop thinking that kendo is not corrupt. oh and dont be so idealistic about kendo, it makes you sound like a fool.

[KhawMengLee]

And what have you won, eh? or nearly won for that matter?

Yeah, I need practice but hey, if I loose, I learn, I pick myself up and try harder next round, as I'm sure most kendoka do. This barring the few that sit around and whine and blame everyone and everything for their shortcomings and misfortune...losers.

[qpuppy]

Originally posted by misterkurukuru
has any of you guys ever won at a big shiai???????????????
If anyone is a national champion, runner up in a national tournament, or a world team member for their country, well they know what i am talking about...if you are not...well then..............
sounds to me like you guys need to practice some more and stop thinking that kendo is not corrupt. oh and dont be so idealistic about kendo, it makes you sound like a fool.

I pitty you misterkurukuru..... I might be low rank and 'NO' I am no where near able to do shinpaning. But I believe many many people started kendo is not because of winning in shiais... yes, of course winning is great, but losing can be a greater winning, human learn from their mistakes and loses. As about in winning in big shiais, yes I have won in a big shiai (teams event), and only came second in the individual event on a shiai which is not so big (Australian University Game), but I am not upset with my result. Maybe to you, you find kendo to be corrupted, but to many of us out there, we still like to follow the tradictional ways of thinking and practice and the meaning of kendo (even though we do break them once in a while). I am not saying you are wrong yet nor am I saying you are right. I just think you shouldn't find people to be a "FOOL" just becasue you think differently.

Cheers

[James]

So what you are saying misterkurukuru is that you do judge, and judges are gay?

[nodachi]

Whether it is a big shiai or not, the same train of thought as I said above applies...

If the shimpan screwed up, the kendoka still wasn't good enough to prevent him from having the opportunity to screw up...

Strive for perfection, that is one reason why I do Kendo...

[Confound]

I have only done shimpaning (two n's?) once or twice, and it was only within our dojo, so it doesn't count. However, it seems to me that with the speed of kendou, and the inability of one human being to see a strike from every possible angle all at once, the work of a shimpan is more of an artform than anything else. As far as people who are 'not as good as you' shimpaning your match, I wouldn't know anything about that. There are few people worse than me.

Albeit, it does annoy me when one shimpan is obviously not maying close attention, and only raises his or her flag when they see another shimpan raise theirs. That doesn't happen often, but it certainly is irritating when it happens.

c

[mingshi]

Originally posted by misterkurukuru
If anyone is a national champion, runner up in a national tournament, or a world team member for their country, well they know what i am talking about...if you are not...well then..............
sounds to me like you guys need to practice some more and stop thinking that kendo is not corrupt. oh and dont be so idealistic about kendo, it makes you sound like a fool.

Hey kid!

There are some members of the British Team on this forum that we know of. Maybe if they bother to answer you for that, they'll show up sometime.

Winning some small championships doesn't mean that you are the greatest among all of us either.

When you compare your age and skill to... Say those from Japan, South Korea or Taiwan, what would winning a "Big Taikai" mean to you? What is "Big"?

About the Shinpan thing... Well, anything that concerns a 3rd person as a witness is the same. You trust the person for their judgement.

Say you lost ippon. Why don't you concentrate on winning it back, instead of complaining that the judges give out a bad one for your opponent?

Afterall, they're just matches. If you lose, you lose. Why be so concern with those who don't really know your skill? Do you go Kendo for the training, or do you just go for the medals?

Even if it's soccer, there are still poor referees around. It's sports. And we are all human. Nobody's perfect.

p.s. I would be a national team member reserved for WKC 2006, hopefully.

[MaxPayneWayne]

wow, looks like by thread got alot of replies quick. first of all, in reply to paburo or whatever his name is, is if a father is judging his own son, and he is constantly bringing up the flag for him, then all he really needs is one shinpan to raise the flag and not two. it's like the father already has the flag up for his son, all he needs is another shinpan to raise the flag and he gets a point. this isn't fair to the other guy. this sensei is disrespecting the other opponent. and sound is 80% percent of the point?? gee i went to the shinpan seminar in japan that they have every year right before the all college championships, and i didn't hear them say anything about sound. it was all about the elements of yuko datotsu. but of course, all of those hachidan sensei could be wrong. and yeah, all of you guys are being too idealistic. how many times have you lost due to a cheap point? it gets really annoying after a while. i know a guy who was the world champion in karate. he came here (presently in the U.S.) to do karate and realized that all the judges sucked so he joined kendo. he got fed up with bad judging too, although joining kendo wasn't that good of an idea either. and what if a shinpan totally blows it? should he or she apologize to the kenshi? of course!!! i saw a match where the guy hit his opponent's kote and they gave the other guy the point! what the hell is that?? there is NO excuse for that. and the shinpan who made the mistake didn't even apologize to him. the guy that "won" eventually took first place! you're all saying to get over it. say "oh well" gee, if any of you lost the world championships by bad judging would you say oh well? what if that was the last time you were gonna be in the world championships and you lost like that? lost with no honor and no diginity? would you say OH WELL??? well what does it mean to you when your own skills don't dictate the outcome of a match? what does it mean to you when winning or losing depends on some blind, deaf, corrupt shinpan? how does that make you feel? how does that make you feel about kendo?? stop being idealistic. all these shinpan need to learn a heck of alot more about judging. oh and "if it's sooooo much pressure to be judging in a match," well then those guys shouldn't even be judging then should they? they should be eating bento. and near the end of a long tournament, do you really think the judges care if they're judging appropriately? NO. they want to get the match over with and go home. you think anyone wants a tournament to last till 10 p.m.? of course not. you'll realize that alot of this kind of bad judging goes on more than you think.

[KhawMengLee]

Well, you should be able to notice that when a proper hit is done in the kote and men it is a very distinct sound. With shinpan you make do with what you have, because kendo is relatively new to the rest of the world it will take a while for us to develop.

And first time shinpans are bound to make mistakes. I was in a practice shiai and we only used one shinpan(who happened to be only a shodan). I got of about 5 hits on my senior's men but none were counted. Later my sensei asked me in front of everyone how many I thought counted and confirmed at least 3 should have scored...ah, well...

Hopefully, they(bad shinpans) learn from each time and will improve.

If you know you won is it not good enough? Or do you need a medal to prove it? Ego...

MENG

[sminki]

I recently read a book by a inoue masasomthing or rather, hanshi, hachi dan which said that ippon is a subjective concept, i.e., even if there's something lacking, if the timing was right, if seizing the opportunity was right and kisei was right, it can be an ippon. I've heard other senseis express this view.

I think Miyazaki Masahiro's men which trailed off to the side without clear tatotsu on Eiga's men in the 47th AJKC is a good example. Replay did show that Miyazaki missed that men. However, the other aspects of that strike was so good that the shimpans recognized it as an ippon. Even Eiga himself said that he learned a lot just watching that replay about ippon and yokou tatotsu.

I understand that everyone wants fairness and I myself have disagreed with shimpan's decisions in my heart, but I do believe this idea that an ippon is a somewhat subjective. Of course, this obviously is pertaining to kendo shimpans who are diligent at attending seminars and learning about doing shimpan. This is obviously a touchy subject as it is not purely machanical, but it is not purely subjective. All we can do is to continue to improve ourselves and hope that the overall quality of kendo helps and leads to better shimpan. I personally believe that right or wrong, the rule on not challenging a shimpan should be adhered to. No instant replay challenge for me.

I just don't appreciate it when shimpans kinda roam around a bit without really paying attention and simply raise the flag when others shimpans do. I've seen this happen. Some shimpans don't pay attention and when others raise flags, negates it, since he/she himself/herself did not see it because he/she himself/herself was not paying attention.

[misterkurukuru]

hahaha britan and the out back guys wahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha and a girl from a team of zakos wahahahahahaha what do you know???????? wahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Gosh you guys are funny!you call thoes big tournaments ??? wahahahahahaha!!!!

[Karaken]

HoHoHo Mr.kurukuru, so which one of the BIG tournaments have you won?

[aru-ma]

Speaking of big tournaments which one do you think is bigger:
all Japan--WKC
all Japan--Meiji mura
WKC--Meiji mura

I know most of you would think that the all japan and Meiji mura doesn't quite relate to you because you cant compete in it but just as a measure of big tournaments.

Oh and what do you find funny about the POMS (sorry cant resist:)) People from down under? Personaly I'm neither, I just live here.

[ben]

The attitude of blaming judges for bad decisions is juvenile and shows little character. What, would you try and sue the shimpan to change the decision of the match?

[kendokamax]

these shinpan are all amateur, it's all goodwill stuff. Nothing too serious. But I think that shinpan should be aware of their mistakes and always should try to become better. It's all a part of their training right? What pisses me off are shinpan who are not interested in improving or shinpan that dont even practice kendo that much.

Personnaly I never try to blame shinpan for bad decision...otherwise I would have never been able to win a competition hahaha

Easiest way to avoid bad calls is to become soooooo gooood that all your ippon become very obvious!! (not that easy !)

[KhawMengLee]

I think mrkurukuru is a troll. So let not get worked up and provide food for it, eh?:p

[munenmuso]

He's just playing the role of the devil's advocate, he feeds on everybody's irritation and he feels good and call it a day to see somebody reacting from his posts with too many exclamation points..


Signs of an unexamined life..:D

[qpuppy]

Hmmm... true true.. I fully agree.... Just wondering... if he was so great and knows so much and have some much knowledge of kendo.. I wonder why he is no well known in the kendo world.... Hmmmmmm..... and yes.. from Zinbabwe...

kurukru..... Just wondering.. I wonder where is your sensei from?... or how long have you been doing kendo for?

[misterkurukuru]

you guys havent answered any of my question!! you just try to change the subject!!!! wahahahaha !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
sounds like some( not all but some) people are blowing a lot of hot air!!!!!!

[misterkurukuru]

i am well known by the best guys in Canada, USA, Hashimoto Ryotaro sensei/senpai(former prime minister of japan) said i have very fun kendo and he enjoys watching me fight in shiais. hmmmm good enough for you??? kendo...well i judge at shiais and i am not 3 dan....hmmmm...and i have been doing kendo before i turned into the troll i am today.Oh yea and i like how everyone says i am bad and a troll when you guys are lowering yourselves to my level by calling me names! wahahahaha! Good for you! <---look i only used one this time ^_^

[kendokamax]

uh where are you knowned in canada?
i never heard of any kurukuru

..whats your name?

[KhawMengLee]

as I said, pay no attention to the troll....so lets leave him to his fantasy world where he is "well known" by kendo's finest in USA and Canada.

[nodachi]

Being humble is an important characteristic to any truly great kendoka (or any great person in general). Not really meaning to attack anyone in particular, but egos and rank and fame have no place in kendo in my opinion. Dan levels are merely an indicator of progress but don't really stand for much else.

[misterkurukuru]

I never claimed to want to be a great kenshi. Oh, and there are people that shouldnt judge(isnt this what this what MAX wanted tot alk about?). I wonder who started the personal attacks?

[Hyaku]

Originally posted by sminki
u tatotsu.

I just don't appreciate it when shimpans kinda roam around a bit without really paying attention and simply raise the flag when others shimpans do. I've seen this happen. Some shimpans don't pay attention and when others raise flags, negates it, since he/she himself/herself did not see it because he/she himself/herself was not paying attention.

What you are taking about is simply bad judging. Or should I say someone who has not had enough experience.

In Japan you start Kendo as kid and this includes referreeing too. You know what constitutes a good point not only in doing it but watching others.

I remember once negating a point and when asked why, I said I was not sure. I was reprimanded on this. Either you "see it" or "you dont". Ther are no "not sures".

Being too subjective on a national level is going to set a new precedent of what constitutes a point.

Hyaku

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Hyaku


I remember once negating a point and when asked why, I said I was not sure. I was reprimanded on this. Either you "see it" or "you dont". Ther are no "not sures".

If you're not sure, you don't negate, you indicate that you didn't see it and leave it to the other judges. Making too many of these calls indicates bad judging because you're not putting yourself in the correct position to see the point, but the occasional one is fine. AFAIK.

PS for those who are unfamiliar with the signals - red flag back and forth across the white with both down means the judge disagrees that it is a point, red over white held down means that he was unable to see it.

[Paburo]

Originally posted by MaxPayneWayne
and yeah, all of you guys are being too idealistic. how many times have you lost due to a cheap point? it gets really annoying after a while i think a lot of us here have lost due to cheap points that were given to the opponent. i include myself in the list. the difference is, some of us actually got over it.

have in mind bad judging can either affect you or 'help' you.
like i said before, when the judges are not that good, it's a matter of luck... wether they give the opponent a cheap point, or give YOU a cheap point. wether the opponent made a good ippon and they didn't see it, or if it was YOU who scored the ippon shinpan didn't see.

when going to a tournament, big or small, have always in mind the LUCK factor. it's yet another handicap to add to kendo. i don't see why you have to whine so much over it.

[Ares2907]

There are many factors that affect the way someone will judge a match. There may be certain waza that are more recognized in some countries than others. This may pre-dispose a shinpan to give one type of point and perhaps not another dependent on what he sees as valid yuko datotsu.
Sometimes you get lucky/unlucky but that's just the way it goes. Accepting it graciously is as much a part of your development in kendo as persuing the perfect men cut.
I was in a tournament in Hong Kong over the weekend where I cut kote on my aite and scored it (validly). Not long after, an identical opportunity presented itself, I executed an (almost) identical cut but hit him on the forearm just below the buton. The flags went up anyway and I won the match. I would have preferred to win with a correct cut, but he and I both knew that this is part of kendo. I have had the opposite happen many many times. Who hasn't? The thing is that there are usually more than just the shinpan watching the match. Many people will see if a point is called incorrectly and what they are most likely to take not of is the reaction of the kendoka who was 'cut'.
Valid point or not, if you do anything other than staunchly accept it, what sort of impression do you think it will leave?

[MaxPayneWayne]

whine huh? is that what you guys think i'm doing? let me tell you guys something. especially all of you canadians out there. correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't a particular canadian figure skating pair get the gold medal after an investigation that the french judge favored the russians? well, whatever happened, the fact of the matter is is that there was a JUDGE WHO SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN JUDGING, was accused of favoring the russians or something, and the canadians got the silver. what happened? the whole world "whined" and the canadians got the gold medal. now i don't know if in fact the russians skated better than the canadians, but the olympic comittee agreed that the canadians deserved the gold medal too because of unfair judging. and what happened to the french judge? well she got punished of course (which is what we should do to corrupt judges). so if the canadians and the whole world just accepted the fact that they "lost," they would have never gotten their gold medal that the olympic committee agreed that they deserved! so if they "gracefully" accepted defeat, what lesson would they have learned? not to compete in the olympics, because the judges are corrupt, and their marks on your performance don't tell you crap about your true skills! that's the lesson i would have learned.

[Ares2907]

sigh
*plonk*

[alexpollijr]

.. should have plonked it long ago.

It looks like we're having a troll surge.

plonk.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I normally hate feeding the trolls but...

Yeah, our skaters should have just sucked it up, taken their silver and had Skate Canada deal with the ISU privately to work out any future problems. The bitching and moaning, especially from our broadcasters, was a black mark on Canadian figure skating IMO. I thought the Russians were better anyways.

And as far as kendo goes - one of the things I really, really like about kendo competition is that it has dignity. You win, you lose, you don't make a fuss either way, you show your opponent respect and accept the judges' decision. It's one of the things that makes kendo unique. It's also one of the things that will go away should kendo go Olympic.

[nodachi]

Whatever happened to doing something merely out of the enjoyment of it? When I was young, I used to care about trophies and who won at things, like long 4 day soccer tournaments. I am a soccer fanatic, then and now. However, now I have grown out of that stage where I need to have a plastic trophy or a medal to make my time worthwhile.

Although maybe people just never grow out of that stage where they need some medal or public recognition to make it worth their time to compete. Like those soccer parents who yell and scream and are more violent than their kids on the field. Or countries that demand recognition of their skill at an event that is not supposed to be about winning and showing which country is best but which is supposed to be bringing the world closer together like the Olympics. (Not trying to pick on Canada because all countries are guilty of these kinds of issues at the Olympics.)

There is something wrong if you need external motivation and rewards to make something enjoyable. For all you sociologists out there, whatever happened to internal motivation?

[misterkurukuru]

What the freak is going on???? i just think really old people that are blind and deaf shoudn't judge. oh and people that are not as good as you should not be judging for you either. 3 dans can judge for the kids and i dont really care, but a 3 dan juding for the 4 dan and above group is not right. even if you get beat, dont you want to get beat the right way??????

[ben]

Not feeding the trolls so much as seconding Neil. The great thing about kendo competition is definitely the dignity. How I HATE the "punching the air" that has become so common among sportspeople (mostly men actually). It's why Agassi is so much more popular than Hewitt in the tennis - he has so much control over his game AND himself, he just gets on with the job and does it beautifully.

And in the All Japans, you know when they take their men off after the winner's been decided, you can't even tell in a close up on TV who the fuck won the match. Now THAT'S zanshin! It's like they could both put their men back on and go again and you wouldn't hear so much as a WHINE.

b

[kendokamax]

eh

stop calling them troll
it's an annoying geek language that not everyone understand, it sounds stupid.

secondly not all the kendoka in all japan are so musshin after a victory. When Eiga won you could tell he was soo happy!!

[Ares2907]

Kendokamax, not to be insulting but you are showing your own ignorance here. Troll is a term that is as old as the internet itself. Given that you appear not to understand what a troll is, how is it that you feel so qualified to tell others where and when the term can/ cannot be applied?
It's not an annoying geek language, it's common internet/usenet terminology - something that you might like to take some time to familiarise yourself with.

[kendokamax]

Not to feed the geeks here but....

well first time i see that expression
must be a forum thing.

Anyway i'm sure more than half the people here were not aware of that too! anyway now we know........still it sounds geeky to me.


oh soo off thread......no

Anyway I agree!
I think judges like AlexM shouldn't judge internal shiai in the dojo.....

[mingshi]

Originally posted by misterkurukuru
oh and people that are not as good as you should not be judging for you either. 3 dans can judge for the kids and i dont really care, but a 3 dan juding for the 4 dan and above group is not right.

Okay...

So is that the BIG championships that you have been talking about?

That they cannot even afford to have enough senior high grades people to be referees?

That's the case of bad judging. Of course you cannot expect perfection from immature referees. But you are in the game, and the decision of the judges is final.

So stop crying, and take it like a MAN~! :cool:

BTW - can't find your name in any AUSKF tourney records. How BIG are you?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by kendokamax
Not to feed the geeks here but....

well first time i see that expression
must be a forum thing.

It's originally a Usenet thing. Usenet, you know? Newsgroups? Oh wtf just go check out google groups ya newbie. Here's a reference explaining trolls:

http://www.dickalba.demon.co.uk/usenet/guide/faq_trol.html

The other expression used here lately, "plonk", is used to describe the sound when some troll/idiot is dropped into your killfile, which causes all posts from them to be filtered out.

[misterkurukuru]

I am there!!!! i won at cleavland and at VEGAS i would have won at los angeles, but i went to a college kendo gathering in japan where there were a lot of world kendo championship team members from other countries and we were able to practice with all the top senseis from the colleges in the tozai tournamnet. oh and toda sensei practiced with us as well. Big??? I NEVER CLAIMED TO BE BIG! dont attack me just because you feel small!
In our federation, we have enough judges, but the old senseis dont want 4 dans to even judge: therefore young judges cannot get better and the old guys just get older and blinder! I also think there should be more lady judges, i saw some in japan and they were really good, over here there is a lack of lady senseis so there are not too many lady judges. I want skilled people to judge the big matches and the higher dan tournaments....is that such a bad thing?

[kendokamax]

ok let me try...see how it feels

geez dude you are such a troll!!!
..
..
...
geek!!!

...........
misterkurukururururu you are a real winner!
...........


well I still have a lot of floors to clean.........what one wouldnt do for kendo? I'm nuts.

[Inouye02]

geez, some of you people should take a refresher course in ( REIGI ) you should always respect a higher rank kenshi...

especially a 3-kyu janitor...

btw mr kurukuru is very well known AND a SENSEI!!

[alexpollijr]

AND a professional Troll.

[mingshi]

Whoa, 3 trolls in a roll! Look how popular KW is...

Wait, am I the only person to assume all recent trolls are from the same person? Umm... apparently...

As to Kuru Sensei... You are sooooo well-known now. Being famous for anything in KW is the BIGGEST!!

"Cleavland" is BIG? ... LOL, too much porno for you.

Now go and do 1000 suburi. All of you!!

[misterkurukuru]

okay???? i am a sensei you idiot! i am 4 dan! US championships is the biggest tournament in the united states? belittleing the USA is not smart girl! i guess someone whats to get bombed by trigger happy bush eh?just a thousand suburi? wahaha Someone doesnt know jack? you think i talk big huh?? well i have the rank and the hardware to do so, this doesnt make me think i am big and great like you think you are! i have gotten my @$$ handed to me by people that are really good so i know i dont have as much game as japanese guys or korean guys..and some Canadian guys (got to give thoes guys props!), i did kick the crap out of the(former) european champion( i think he is on team hungry or something) , but he was kinda cheap not like some europeans i know that could kick butt and will kick butt in the WKC(go jun<- this guy is a euro with game!)! Geeze you need to check yourself before you open your pie hole girl! if i was your dojo senpai i would kick the crap out of you for talking to a sensei like this....wake wakan nai yo! nanda kono chyawan atama? kuso gaki me!!!hito wo namete bakkari...fusageruna bakayaro!!!!!! oh and this is the only name that i have registered numb nut!

[AlexM]

You're 4th dan.... You sound like your 12 years old.

[Paburo]

12 year olds at my dojo are more mature and humble than this guy... and they're only 4th kyuu average.

[misterkurukuru]

hahaha yea i know( i sound like a kid), but its not my fault i passed. I am young and i do sports kendo! For me kendo is mostly a sport, and if you think its mostly budo i think thats kool, because eventually a kenshi will have to do "real" and "clean " kendo. Me? i am still young and twisty, bendy, and ugly moves still work. I tell my students that if you do the "nice" kendo from the begining and keep practicing it, then you will be laughen at the rest of us 15 years down the line because you will have hachi dan and we will be stuck at yon dan. RESPECT, i give it...but if you decide not to take it and spit in my face....you will get your @$$ handed to you...by me.... when we meet... itsuka

[AlexM]

Scratch that..... 11 years old.

[misterkurukuru]

hahaha look who gets personal and spews insults....Paburo...thats not too nice now is it? by attacking me, you are showing your are not mature yourself! ouch! guess your little try at humor bit you in the butt! ME? i never claimed to be a mature person...got it?! and i never claimed to be a tensai kendo guy or anyhting like that either! I hope you guys can understand what i am saying... i know i need to grow up and i am not a kendo know it all, you will get no argument from me! Geeze get over it already! i just want to know why you people think you are so great and are so advanced at kendo that you can tell a yon dan that they are full of it? i would never tell a sensei or a senpai that.

[misterkurukuru]

Alex go to steveston next year okay! we can practice for a little bit on the side next to court D. Atleast then you can talk crap to my face. these other people live too far away to practice with, but you...i will meet you half way if you are up to it. what do you say?
i am going anyways, but it would be nice to put a face next to the FFT samuri guy. No anger in this , just want to see if you have any balls.

[Karaken]

Yes Mr.K sounds like you'd be stuck at 4th dan for a while..

You remind me of lightening fast Kenshi I know who doesn't get any respect from 7th dan senseis..Becaus they said "Speed kills" then they said "Yes, SPEED KILLS"..

Center - take the center

[kendokamax]

geez i'm young too (not a 4th dan!!) and I understand/agree with your philosophy on the sport kendo vs classical kendo, but you just lack respect towards others! It's nonsense to be so arrogant..

[KhawMengLee]

sigh...I give all kendoka(not just senseis) respect as common courtesy suggests. But when they act in a way that degenerates them from that standing then they deserve no respect. You say you are a yondan and a sensei but you act unlike it.
(I use this "sensei" term loosely here because officially only godan+ is called sensei, in Australia and Singapore only godan+ sits on the sensei row but it changes from different countries. Malaysia is quite similar to the USA as yondans sit on the sensei row and are addressed as sensei)

A sensei has an obligation to set an example, so by saying:


"i never claimed to be a mature person...got it?! and i never claimed to be a tensai kendo guy or anyhting like that either! I hope you guys can understand what i am saying... i know i need to grow up and i am not a kendo know it all, you will get no argument from me! Geeze get over it already! i just want to know why you people think you are so great and are so advanced at kendo that you can tell a yon dan that they are full of it? i would never tell a sensei or a senpai that."

You are just trying to cop out of the responsibility. Your mentality reflects your arrogance, ignorance and rudeness. I have no respect for you because you have disgraced your rank and are a disgrace to yondans everywhere.

p.s. saying "kuso gaki me!!!hito wo namete bakkari...fusageruna bakayaro!!!!!! oh and this is the only name that i have registered numb nut!" to a lady or anyone else is not polite. Watch your mouth!

But if you like to swear at people in foriegn languages, well, "Tiu ley nya ma chow hai! Pook lay ar kai, sey lan tao!!! sek kow sai, lor!"

pps.sorry for feeding the troll.

MENG

[misterkurukuru]

in the US a yon dan person is a sensei, in japan there are some san dan people that are senseis. i keep saying i am not a know it all, but you guys act stuck up and talk down to me! who lacks respect? And which people cannot respect that everyone is not the same, and some people are diffrent????????? hhhmmmm and who starts attacking people personaly?????????? arrogant??? i said that i have been beaten and there are a lot of people better then i am....what part of that is arrogant??? Aitsu onna na no ka?? reigi shiranai kuse ni.....doko ga onna da? kendo is all about reigi..some people should figure that out...just face the fact that you will never be able to sit ahead of some people. thats kendo......"donnani mukatsuite mo, donnani okotte mo, aitsu wa ore tachi no senpai nano...reigi da...reigi..." A senpai told me this when i was young and its what all kenshi are supposed to live by...maybe you havent learned it yet...its japanese culture people! if you dont like it dont do anyhting that has to do with Japanses culture then!

[KhawMengLee]

Is it me or is this guy the ultimate hypocrite? Let see...


I agree with you! there are a lot of judges that suck out there! There are senseis that need to go to shinpan seminars!!!!!!!!!!I also hate it when people that are not as good as you are judging for you! judges are gay!!!!


So much for respect...


kendo is all about reigi..some people should figure that out...just face the fact that you will never be able to sit ahead of some people.

oh, my...wohohohohoo! Look who is talking...




hahaha britan and the out back guys wahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha and a girl from a team of zakos wahahahahahaha what do you know???????? wahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

yes...more respect here...

Wow, sensei kuru's idea of respect...


okay???? i am a sensei you idiot! i am 4 dan! US championships is the biggest tournament in the united states? belittleing the USA is not smart girl! i guess someone whats to get bombed by trigger happy bush eh?

Nice, when he cannot win verbally, he gets abusive physically...


......"donnani mukatsuite mo, donnani okotte mo, aitsu wa ore tachi no senpai nano...reigi da...reigi..." A senpai told me this when i was young and its what all kenshi are supposed to live by...maybe you havent learned it yet...its japanese culture people! if you dont like it dont do anyhting that has to do with Japanses culture then!

Maybe you should take a good long hard look at this post you made and compare it to your comments, eh? And stop qouting japanese philosophical/cultural lines to make yourself look so holy because you certainly don't act or live by it.

[mingshi]

Originally posted by misterkurukuru
I am there!!!! i won at cleavland and at VEGAS

Bet that is the result of Bad Judging.

(Cannot resist.... the temptation to..... gamble!!! :D)

Who follows?

[Neil Gendzwill]

In the US and Canada yondan is a kind of junior sensei. It's the first rank in many larger dojo at which people are given formal teaching duties. Of course in smaller places you find more junior people teaching. Nobody I know with that rank (or with a lower rank in the position of teacher) refers to themselves as sensei. In fact, nobody I know even higher up refers to themselves as sensei. Calling yourself sensei is Just Not Done. It's an honorific you don't apply to yourself. Like -san.

In the case of yondan people, usually they don't even really accept the title from other people. "Just call me Fred" or whatever is the norm. Takes another rank or two to get comfortable in that role, ya know.

To add another wrinkle to the etiquette thing, on a forum such as this anyone can claim to be any rank. Especially when they hide behind handles. So it's common etiquette to just argue the point at hand and not resort to "my rank is higher than yours, so there" arguments. What happens over the course of time is people sort out for themselves whether you're worth listening to or not. I think people have already figured out whether Mr. Kurukuru is worth listening to.

[Antonin]

Kurukuru-thingy.
I sugest that if you wasnt to be respected as a sensei you think you are (and you are the only one), you behave like one.
Untill then, plonk.
Antonin

[james brown]

sorry dudes, i'm gonna get a little off topic and talk about judges who shouldn't judge. i was at the steveston kendo tournament in canada a couple years ago, and i saw a match where there was a nito guy competing. the judges stopped the match and told him that he was doing tsubazariai wrong. they said that the daito is supposed to be crossed in front of the shoto. the nito person said that they were wrong, and the judges went to the head judge of the tournament and said that the wrong way was right. i checked the rule book myself and it said that the shoto is supposed to be in front of the daito. now for having a nito person on their own team canada, they're pretty ignorant in not knowing the rules for nito. i'm pretty sure that everyone in this forum can agree that these judges shouldn't judge. they don't even know the rules! and i'm not being disrespectful or any of that. that's what really happened. and those guys should not be judging.

[kendokamax]

ok well it's nice to whine but do you guys have any concrete suggestions to correct the bad judging? Banning bad judges would kinda stupid. We are doing an amateur sport nobody gets real credit if they win or if they lose.


I personaly think that there should be more judging seminar and that they should be accessible to everyone whatever the rank!

[KhawMengLee]

Well, nothing wrong with your post soul brutha(James Brown is da MAN!). It was a good point and was delivered with civility. Maybe the AJKF or IKF could release a set rulebook for us to use.

It would be nice then because I have read a few japanese text(well, seen the pics) and they were brilliant.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Well, there's one guy in Canada doing nito, he lives 3000 miles away from Vancouver in Toronto and if it weren't a Worlds year he probably wouldn't even be at the Steveston Taikai. At Steveston, they're running 4 courts and 300 participants and they need a lot of judges. Not many of those judges will have seen much nito competition.

Frankly, nito people have more of a problem with judges not understanding what constitutes a point from nito than any nit-picking about which shinai crosses where. I didn't even *know* there was a rule about that.

Judging at a high level requires practice. If you don't get the opportunity to practice judging nito players, you're going to make mistakes when you eventually do run into one. Matthew runs into this all the time, it's one of the things he just has to deal with. *Even at the worlds*.

[nodachi]

Instead of books to correct the shinpan problem, I say use the wonderful technology of our age. Put some links about it on Federation webpages, and get some videos or DVDs together. Books will do for some people, but you've got to get the info across through other media so everyone will have access to it. Of course if there is a book on it then shinpan should read it, but some people don't like the book route. That's why other media options are needed.

[Karaken]

Everyone has good point but....

1. Judges don't get paid - in fact many times they get volunteered by the tournament organizer because they're short on judges. 200 people tournament ( individual and team )in one day requires a lot of judges and we need (3) per match.

2. Watching video helps but not really

3. Attending seminar helps but not really

So only way a bad judge can learn to be a good one is to keep doing it. Maybe he/she realize after bad judging then learn from their own mistake.

I think if we ban bad judges from judging, soon we're not going to have any left - since good judges are not getting any younger.

Good, bad or ugly - let's just accept - It hurts when you lose a big one by bad judging but eventually it'll even out.

Just the center - nowhere else..

[nodachi]

Although in order to improve ones judging, there has to be some sort of discussion amongst the judges after the match or the tournament about why such and such was or was not a point. If there is no discussion amongst the judges, a bad one can potentially stay a bad one unless there is someone to discuss and correct difficult or incorrect decisions with them.

[Karaken]

Nodachi, I was watching Kendo video ( www.kumdo.org ) and I was very impressed about how accurate the Korean Judges are. All the videos have slow motion at the end and they're almost 100% accurate in their judging.. Then I found out Koreans have to pass a test and then must be certified as a judge before they can judge.. Maybe that's what we need for IKF.

Center only - no gimmicks for now.

[Tenken]

there should be a shinpan test before every tournament to see who has the ablility to do shinpan. maybe some people could only do shinpan for kids, maybe some could be so good that he/she could do shinpan for both yudansha and kyu division.

[kendokamax]

I think it also depends on what level you are judging. Judging a match in kyu division looks very hard, since you never really know what to expect from both players. Even for higher grade if there is a large different in skills it seems even harder ....what can you consider a point or not?

To give an simple example at one tournament that was host in waterloo university. One girl from my dojo had to face Taro Ariga in team matches. She only had 1 year of experience in kendo. First thing she made was kote and Taro easely made a sureage men. But his hit was sooo light. All flags got up.

So in a sense he was favorised in the judging.

eh Judging is tough.

[samurai999]

Originally posted by misterkurukuru
I agree with you! there are a lot of judges that suck out there! There are senseis that need to go to shinpan seminars!!!!!!!!!!
I also hate it when people that are not as good as you are judging for you! judges are gay!!!!

Although I have found some judges to have questionable calls at times, don't you guys have sportsman's pledges that say something to the effect that you will respect the judges decision at all times? C'mon man.. This isn't a sport like bball where you have millions of egos and salaries at stake. This is a martial art competition. Next thing, there will be suggestions to use instant replay at all kendo tournaments...

Tim

[kendomushi]

Yes there are some judges who seem unable to judge fairly. But so much is counted in the judging, ki, choshi, accuracy, force, zanshin, kiai, and other things including personal bias in some cases. I once lost a match on a kote point that left a red welt on my upper arm.......... but that was the judges call and there is no recourse, no challenge.
In my area, there seems to be a growing emphasis on training of judges lately. I just hope it shows through next time I'm in a shiai. But if it doesn't, does it matter? I'm not into kendo for medals. I'm into kendo for what it does for me, how it makes me feel. So what if the judge doesn't award me the victory? I'm still in it for me, not for accolades.

[hamish]

I'm not 100% sure on the regs for IKF judges, but they always have a referee's seminar before any major competition, so I don't think the Korean system is that different from the way the IKF operates. They certainly don't send any old kenshi out there with a flag in their hands!

In general, the judging level in most countries is low compared with Korea and Japan, and that's certainly something that needs to be addressed more seriously by the IKF, and is also one area where Kendo World will be focusing on regularly.

Hamish

[Aoi]

Judging can be a life and death situation for the competitors, but it is also serious matter for the judges themselves... one blink, one thought can put them off from making the judgement, and being human, it is impossible not to do so. So yes, mistakes definitely do occur. But yet again, I believe Judging is the most warm side of kendo. Imagine having electrical sensors and circuits inbeded in your armoury, lights flashing for scores... is that kendo? The baseline of kendo is to be and learn what "we" are and to improve ourselves... it is human interaction, improvement and trust. There may be mistakes, but what we need to learn is to accept that, and respect it. Again, the judges must keep telling themselves to improve and to be truthful to what they see, and to show what they believe (ie using the flags).
It is true that some judges do not pay any attention, or play favorites. The sad story is that not always they notice their mistake, nor they even try to improve or move from there. What we need to do is before we complain, think back at ourselves and ask, "was my kendo clear enough" and "why did they take the other score". There are "sheep judges" which just follow another's decision, but the initial decision must have been decided on some grounds. "why" is the question. A senpai told me that it is impossible to lose "imperfect judges" therefore what we need to do is to do kendo which everyone will agree that it is a true "ippon". It is easy to speak with the mouth, but difficult to speak with your kendo. Any excuse can do after you lose "yeah, he was playing favorites/that was no hit/I wasn't feeling well"... of course your friends will take your side and agree with you. Rather than blaming it on something else, what should be done is to reflect back at yourself. By doing so, it will improve your heart and your kendo.

Either way, sad to see what's happening to kendo. "winning is everything". I guess that the reason why kendo hasn't been added to the Olympics.
It is yes a great sport, but yet again people lose what the true meaning is of the "sword". Winning isn't everything, and there is no reward for the winner either. If you call respect from winning a reward, I pity you. There is only loss and emptiness from winning which takes you no where.
So yes, I pity you, whoever said that "I dont want to be a true kendoka, I do twisted bendy kendo but I win so I don't care". because nothing "fake" can beat the "true". Though saying this will mean nothing to that person, I cannot help feeling pity and sorrow for you.

[lwegerich]

Am I the only here who thinks that there are some people who shouldn't judge? Some of them are just terrible. (stuff deleted)

Max, what's your point?

[lwegerich]

C'mon man.. This isn't a sport like bball where you have millions of egos and salaries at stake. This is a martial art competition. Next thing, there will be suggestions to use instant replay at all kendo tournaments...

lol....Here's an even more simple solution: Give the two contestants a real katana and you don't need judges at all. ;)

[Goomba]

You know what I hate about shimpans? When they don't accept bribes. That really upsets me.

I'm kidding... Or am I?

[Hongsermeier]

This has been an interesting thread. Now for my $.02.
ALL judges make mistakes ocassionaly. I can deal with that. I have been on the winning and losing end of bad calls. What I hate to see is when 1 judge goes against the other two judges on every call all day. The 1 judge needs to be sat down to watch and learn. Have a better judge sit with him for a few matches and watch and explain to him. Then let him try again. Starting in the kids division.

For Kurukuru sensei, I hope to see you at practice tomorrow night. :cross_eye

[xvikingx]

there should be a shinpan test before every tournament to see who has the ablility to do shinpan. maybe some people could only do shinpan for kids, maybe some could be so good that he/she could do shinpan for both yudansha and kyu division.

From what I understand being a shinpan for the children is much harder than being a shinpan for adults.

[MaxPayneWayne]

my point, Iwegerich, is that you are a moron. now on to more serious and important things. hahah i'm glad that this thread is back up there again. this was my first thread. anyways, at the WKC i saw two matches in which there were judges who shouldn't have judged. fabrizio mandia of italy vs. hirao of japan. fabrizio won that match. he should have won 2-0. he had two clean men on hirao and one of the judges raised it but the other two didn't. they were clearly ippon, but i guess they couldn't have a european beat a japanese right?? next was sato vs. kun bai lim. lim totally beat sato down. it should have been 2-0. but i guess we couldn't have a non-japanese kenshi in the final round now could we?? lastly there was one more match, but i didn't see it, but i did see the video of it. young kyu kim vs. the other sato. they should have counted kim's do instead of sato's men cause sato's men was completely blocked and kim did a nice kaishi do. oh yeah, eiga's tsuki was off, but his first tsuki that was thrown in regulation was really nice, but they didn't count it. anyone out there agree with me?

[sminki]

anyways, at the WKC i saw two matches in which there were judges who shouldn't have judged. fabrizio mandia of italy vs. hirao of japan. fabrizio won that match. he should have won 2-0. he had two clean men on hirao and one of the judges raised it but the other two didn't. they were clearly ippon, but i guess they couldn't have a european beat a japanese right?? next was sato vs. kun bai lim. lim totally beat sato down. it should have been 2-0. but i guess we couldn't have a non-japanese kenshi in the final round now could we?? lastly there was one more match, but i didn't see it, but i did see the video of it. young kyu kim vs. the other sato. they should have counted kim's do instead of sato's men cause sato's men was completely blocked and kim did a nice kaishi do. oh yeah, eiga's tsuki was off, but his first tsuki that was thrown in regulation was really nice, but they didn't count it. anyone out there agree with me?

I agree that H. Sato vs. KB Lim should've gone to Lim. Lim did have the first men point (which was awarded) plus that great hiki doh (which only one shimpan raised the flag on). I watch it again and again and fail to see the reason that the hiki doh was not given to Lim. (It is quite comparable to hiki doh that M. Sato had in the quarterfinals to win the match in the 47th AJKC. If it's good enough to be given as a point in AJKC, why not WKC?) Lastly, H. Sato's men which was given to him in the encho was totally blocked although Lim's kaeshi doh (which was a bit close) didn't seem to have enough zanshin. Oh, one more thing. Although it may be a tough Osaka police style thing, but I did think H. Sato's pushing KB Lim out of bounds after the hiki doh was in poor spirit.

I do think that Eiga's tsuki was good though.

I have not seen the other two matches, so can't comment...

[AlexM]

I just saw the WKC tapes and I found the judging inconsistent at times. They don't seem clear on what a good dou should look like (and the judges never wanted to give gyaku-dou from the tapes I saw).

The match between Hirao and Mandia was a disgrace however. Only one judge had the courage to raise for ippon. The other two shinpan made blatant mistakes: It was just so obvious that Hirao got caught and should have lost.

Concerning the match between Lim and H.Sato: That hiki-dou by Lim looked good to me. It's just a question of consistency by the judges: They can't seem to decide what should or should not be ippon. And the threshold for ippon is lowered if the fighter is Japanese or from a kendo "power" (Korea, USA, Canada... assuming their going up against a lower ranked country).

The judging was a bit disapointing but these things happen in kendo I suppose. Although I think there is a difference between judges making bad calls because of the speed of a match (bound to happen) and bad calls because the judges are simply either worried about the who's going to win, are "sleeping" or don't know the rules properly.

I'm not sure that more shinpan seminars would change what happened in the case of the Mandia vs. Hirao match: the two judges that refused the Italian's points were obviously aware of what constitutes ippon, they were just too worried about who was supposed to win (which is worse because it implies that they were gutless).

That being said, kendo is an amateur sport/budo so winning or losing is a disapointment but as my sensei says: when someone wins without earning it, they then have to live with it.

Just my 2¢...

By the way: Did anyone else notice that alot of the ippon awarded were only two flags? And that sometimes the judge that seemed to have the best view didn't give the point (although that might be my imagination).