No kashiwade allowed??

[Charuzu]

Hello,
In the dojo I go to there is a kamidana. When ever I was there I did kashiwade (2x clap 2x bow clap) ether before or after class (as not to disrupt class or to offent others religious beleaf). Sensei asked me to write for homework what it was and why do it. In responce he said that:

-"It is a formal opening/closing of class"
-"It is called Reishiki" not kashiwade
-"[...]It is a formal act, and it is also a privilage reserved for the teacher or seinor-most student present. To do this without being requested to do so by the teacher would br extreamly rude and presumptious of any kyu rank student. It would also be constructed to be an actual insult to the teacher or the seinor students. Therefore, no one should be doing this as a personal ceremony, or as he or she enters or leavs the Dojo; only by the teacher or the student as designated by the teacher"

I thought that this was kind of odd. he also said in his responce "often done with wooden clappers", I have never heard of this?

Are I wrong about this?
Could someone please clear this up for me???

I also looked up Reishiki and it says that it just is etiquette.

Sources:
http://www.innerstairway.com/reishiki/reishikitopics.htm
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reishiki&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dreishiki%26num%3D20%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D %26oe%3DEUC-JP%26inlang%3Dja%26c2coff%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3D G
http://kenjutsukai.tripod.com/KOMnew/reishiki.htm

[ShinKenshi]

Not sure about using a tripod.com page as a good source of information but that page did seem pretty credible. But, back to the topic at hand. The word reishiki can be used for several different types of etiquette ranging from what to do when visiting a shrine, to entering and leaving a home, to paying respect to one's elders. I think what your sensei is talking about is the formal opening and closing of practice, which is indeed led by either the sensei or the senior student. I assume that before and after class your sensei leads you in saying the following:

Sensei: "Shomen ni rei"
(everyone bows)

Sensei: "Sensei ni rei"

(everyone bows)
Everyone: "Onegaishimasu"

Sensei: "Otegaini rei"

(everyone bows)
Everyone: "Onegaishimasu"

Is this what you guys do? If so, then this is standard opening and closing protocol's for kendo practice. To have a lower ranked student lead this on their own without being asked is very rude and should never be done. It is ALWAYS led by either the sensei or by the senior student at the sensei's request.

The use of the clappers you mentioned is part of a very old tradition. If you watch professional sumo matches in Japan, they have those and you hear them very clearly through the crowd. Their original use included cutting through the chatter and noise of an audience to let them know that something was about to begin. I suppose that some dojo's still use them but I haven't seen it myself (at least for kendo anyway).

[Charuzu]

Hmmmm.... I just read on a site that 2 claps shows that class is opening. But the thing is that that is not kashiwade. He is confusing the two and it's not recognizing the difference.

[mimijaja]

One little thing about the way of pray to "kamidana"

It is "2 bow, 2 clap, one bow".
Sorry if you just miss typed that.

[R A Sosnowski]

Hello,
In the dojo I go to there is a kamidana. When ever I was there I did kashiwade (2x clap 2x bow clap) ether before or after class (as not to disrupt class or to offent others religious beleaf). Sensei asked me to write for homework what it was and why do it. In responce he said that:

-"It is a formal opening/closing of class"
-"It is called Reishiki" not kashiwade
-"[...]It is a formal act, and it is also a privilage reserved for the teacher or seinor-most student present. To do this without being requested to do so by the teacher would br extreamly rude and presumptious of any kyu rank student. It would also be constructed to be an actual insult to the teacher or the seinor students. Therefore, no one should be doing this as a personal ceremony, or as he or she enters or leavs the Dojo; only by the teacher or the student as designated by the teacher"

I thought that this was kind of odd. he also said in his responce "often done with wooden clappers", I have never heard of this?

Are I wrong about this?
Could someone please clear this up for me???

I also looked up Reishiki and it says that it just is etiquette.

Sources:
http://www.innerstairway.com/reishiki/reishikitopics.htm
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reishiki&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dreishiki%26num%3D20%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D %26oe%3DEUC-JP%26inlang%3Dja%26c2coff%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3D G
http://kenjutsukai.tripod.com/KOMnew/reishiki.htm

In terms of Japanese culture, you are wrong.

Doing something that is not part of the "dojo culture" is to set yourself apart from the group. This is extremely poor form, especially if you have low-ranking status.

For example, in my former Aikido Dojo we had one instructor who used this Shinto-style format to begin and end class. We followed his lead when in his class. Other instructors used a more conventional format (see ShinKenshi's initial response). We followed their lead when in their classes. We had a Dojo manual that outlined Reishiki - that was the default in all cases.

Observe your Sempai, and follow their example (especially if there is no Dojo manual). When in doubt, ask one.

HTH,

[Charuzu]

k (=^o^=)

also sorry 'bout the typo. I was kinda sleepy when typing this,

[hamish]

The only source for the etiquette you should be using is your sensei. Don't believe everything you read on the internet!!

The tripod site seems to be the etiquette for some American 'kenjutsu' style, legitimate or not I don't know but I doubt it, but the positioning of the sword before the bow, at a ready to draw position is strange, the bow itself you see a lot in samurai movies, but in most situations is actually rude to whoever you are bowing to. As for the others, anything calling itself 'Zen Judo' should be given a wide berth from the start, as far as I'm concerned.

You could buy our kata book, which goes into etiquette in detail, by a well-respected member of the All Japan Kendo Fed.'s technical board, certainly a better bet than some random net page. :-)

You may be trying to impress your sensei by doing what you think is right, but its actually very arrogant of you to think you and some info from a dodgy web site know better than he does. The way to impress him is to discuss this sort of thing before you go and possibly make a fool of yourself. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

I'm sure you don't mean to appear arrogant, but that's the way most people would see it. Having said that, his response by way of getting you to write about it shows that he doesn't take it in this way. His response to you also sounds very thought out, so if I was you I'd listen to what he says rather than further doubting him by saying 'I just read on a site and...'

There are many ways of etiquette in Japanese culture. I don't mean to come down on you, but at 15, why should you know better than him, especially just from reading a few web pages?

[ShinKenshi]

Just echoing what R A Sonsnowski and Hamish have said. Follow your sensei/sempai's lead. They're the one's who are leading practice and since they are of higher rank than you are, it's pretty much their way or the highway. Part of Japanese culture is to not go against the grain and follow the crowd. This concept of being a part of the group is one of the core social aspects of Japanese culture. To set yourself as someone outside of the group by doing your own thing is extremely rude and arrogant. I don't mean to come down on you or sound harsh, but that really is how your sensei and sempai will see this. I remember my first time in another dojo and during the ride down with my sensei, he told me about the differences between our dojo and theirs and told me what they usually do and to just follow their lead. It really wasn't that different but different enough that I had to pay attention very carefully to what I was doing. In short, don't go off and do your own thing just because it's what you've been doing but instead, do what the current sensei/sempai does without question.

[Charuzu]

Well on Kashiwade I have talked to Rev. Barrish. He also agrees with me that sensei is probally confused on something.
I won't do it without sensei's permission now, but that doesn't mean that I'll voice my oppion.

[Charuzu]

but that doesn't mean that I'll voice my oppion.

Oops... another typo.... I meant to say "But that doesn't mean that I won't voice my oppion.

[Neil Gendzwill]

You might want to rethink that. Your best option as a new student is to just do what your sensei says, and keep your opinions to yourself.

[Charuzu]

Not sure about using a tripod.com page as a good source of information but that page did seem pretty credible. But, back to the topic at hand. The word reishiki can be used for several different types of etiquette ranging from what to do when visiting a shrine, to entering and leaving a home, to paying respect to one's elders. I think what your sensei is talking about is the formal opening and closing of practice, which is indeed led by either the sensei or the senior student. I assume that before and after class your sensei leads you in saying the following:

Sensei: "Shomen ni rei"
(everyone bows)

Sensei: "Sensei ni rei"

(everyone bows)
Everyone: "Onegaishimasu"

Sensei: "Otegaini rei"

(everyone bows)
Everyone: "Onegaishimasu"

Is this what you guys do? If so, then this is standard opening and closing protocol's for kendo practice. To have a lower ranked student lead this on their own without being asked is very rude and should never be done. It is ALWAYS led by either the sensei or by the senior student at the sensei's request.

The use of the clappers you mentioned is part of a very old tradition. If you watch professional sumo matches in Japan, they have those and you hear them very clearly through the crowd. Their original use included cutting through the chatter and noise of an audience to let them know that something was about to begin. I suppose that some dojo's still use them but I haven't seen it myself (at least for kendo anyway).

Also, ShinKenshi. I am not trying to lead a opening or closing. I am just giving the kamidana the respect it deserves (In my oppion). Kashiwade while it might be used in a opening it is not used in the dojo. What sensei sayed was that it could be used as part as an oppening thus I shouldn't do it becuse it is rude. However, talking with other shintoists on yahoo groups like shinto and tsubakiko it is agreed that something is being confused and that students should be able to pay respects to the kami at the Kamidana.

Also, could you please show me the resources for the wooden-clappers?

PS - Sorry If I am being anal, but I need to be %100 shure to go foward with something with no regrets. I also pride the fact that I never really lie. And becuse of that I willingly get smaked in the face. (Well that would be my parents, lol)

[Paikea]

PS - Sorry If I am being anal, but I need to be %100 sure to go foward with something with no regrets. I also pride the fact that I never really lie. And becuse of that I willingly get smacked in the face.Perhaps you should read Neil's suggestion one more time?

[ShinKenshi]

Also, ShinKenshi. I am not trying to lead a opening or closing. I am just giving the kamidana the respect it deserves (In my oppion). Kashiwade while it might be used in a opening it is not used in the dojo. What sensei sayed was that it could be used as part as an oppening thus I shouldn't do it becuse it is rude. However, talking with other shintoists on yahoo groups like shinto and tsubakiko it is agreed that something is being confused and that students should be able to pay respects to the kami at the Kamidana.

Also, could you please show me the resources for the wooden-clappers?

PS - Sorry If I am being anal, but I need to be %100 shure to go foward with something with no regrets. I also pride the fact that I never really lie. And becuse of that I willingly get smaked in the face. (Well that would be my parents, lol) I understand that you want to pay respect to it but it sounds like your sources are thinking about it outside of a dojo. Within a dojo, you do not do so unless your sensei or sempai (at your sensei's request of course) leads everyone in it. It also sounds like you aren't really talking about it with your sensei and that you're second guessing him. First of all, you're coming off as downright rude and arrogant. It all comes back to the concept of following your sensei without question. Don't take it upon yourself to pay respects to the kamidana. Again, really TALK to your sensei about it, don't go off and do your own thing or assume that they are wrong and you are right. Have an actual conversation and try to really understand where your sensei is coming from and why they don't do this. By the way, are you a practicing Shintoist? If not, think carefully about why you're doing this.

As for the clappers, I haven't found any links at this time but I'll start looking and I'll let you know. What I can tell you is that they are used when opening and closing a day of sumo matches and for opening a scene in a kabuki or noh drama.

Again, I'm not trying to berate you or anything but it really sounds like you're scoffing at what your sensei is saying and that you immediately assume that you are correct. This makes you appear to be very arrogant and I'm sure you don't intend to present yourself as such. So please, take the time and have a worth while conversation with your sensei about this and really come to understand both sides of the issue.

[Charuzu]

>It also sounds like you aren't really talking about it with your sensei and that you're second guessing him. First of all, you're coming off as downright rude and arrogant. It all comes back to the concept of following your sensei without question. Don't take it upon yourself to pay respects to the kamidana. Again, really TALK to your sensei about it, don't go off and do your own thing or assume that they are wrong and you are right. Have an actual conversation and try to really understand where your sensei is coming from and why they don't do this.

He refuses to talk about it.

> By the way, are you a practicing Shintoist? If not, think carefully about why you're doing this.

Yes, I am. Thought I am quite new.

>As for the clappers, I haven't found any links at this time but I'll start looking and I'll let you know. What I can tell you is that they are used when opening and closing a day of sumo matches and for opening a scene in a kabuki or noh drama.

Thanks for the info ^o^

>Again, I'm not trying to berate you or anything but it really sounds like you're scoffing at what your sensei is saying and that you immediately assume that you are correct.

Went to find the oppion of Rev. Barrish of the Tsubaki grand shrine and other Shintoists and they agree with me.

>This makes you appear to be very arrogant and I'm sure you don't intend to present yourself as such. So please, take the time and have a worth while conversation with your sensei about this and really come to understand both sides of the issue.

Thats why I'm posting this... so I can get informed oppions and compile them into an creditabe augurement. So in short I am "Fact finding"

[Charuzu]

You might want to rethink that. Your best option as a new student is to just do what your sensei says, and keep your opinions to yourself.
Well I have aspergers so It's easier said then done. I won't do it in before or duting class without his permission but I will contuine to confabulate w/ him about this.

Grr what was it in japanese again... an old saying that translated to "Never ending self-improvement"

>o<

[John Seavitt]

>Went to find the oppion of ... Barrish (et al) ... and they agree with me.

When you say 'went', you mean what exactly? I wonder as it seems there are some details that are lacking in this conversation. I imagine they were also lacking in any interaction you might have had with Barrish et al?

Particularly, I am curious to know how you are certain that the object at the shomen of the dojo you train at is, in fact, consecrated and maintained as a kamidana. There is a bit of archived conversation on this one at http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-5599.html.


>so I can get informed oppion and compile them into an creditabe augurement.

Arguments are often more creditable when legible, lemme tell ya. Be that as it may, "the nail that sticks up will be hammered down". It's not clear to me, but it seems you are going to a lot of effort to prepare for an argument with your instructor, instead of preparing for class. Several folks have suggested a simple course of action, so there's no need to repeat here. I think it might be most productive to be a student of kendo with your kendo instructor and a student of shinto with your shinto instructor.

John

[Kingofmyrrh]

Each dojo has their own traditions. I've been in places in Japan where the reishiki deviates quite considerably from what is considered the norm. If you don't like it, leave.

[ShinKenshi]

Yes, I am. Thought I am quite new.

Went to find the oppion of Rev. Barrish of the Tsubaki grand shrine and other Shintoists and they agree with me.

Thats why I'm posting this... so I can get informed oppions and compile them into an creditabe augurement. So in short I am "Fact finding" Since you are a newbie at this, I find it a bit presumptuous of you to assume that you know all everything there is to know about Shintoism. John Seavitt raises a good point. Some dojo's here in the States have something that looks like a kamidana but is actually just there as a decoration. Real kamidana's have to be consecrated by a Shinto priest and it is rather uncommon to find one outside of Japan. I also think you're asking these other people about this completely out of context. Do they know that this particular kamidana is inside a kendo dojo? Everything you are doing is contradictory to the most basic rule of any dojo: follow your sensei and sempai. If your sensei says not to do it then don't do it! Don't provoke him into an argument. If you don't like the way he runs things, then find another dojo or one where they allow you to do that. Like I said before, to go against the grain is to mark yourself as arrogant and self-centered. Please, don't take offense to what we're telling you. We're telling you the same thing for a reason. Think EXTREMELY CAREFULLY about what you're doing.

[hyuna]

You want to put forth a credible argument. What is the point of doing this?

Do you want to change sensei's mind about what is going on in the dojo? Even though one might think that paying respect in the dojo is different from kendo, it is not. It is all part of the same thing. So if you want to change sensei's mind about something in the dojo, it is the same as not trusting him to teach you kendo, even if it is something that might seem unrelated to you. That is why there is no value in constructing an argument.

Maybe you just want him to acknowledge your opinion? Again, you are in the dojo, presumably to learn from sensei. Sensei is trying to teach you the right way. Do you want your teacher to be swayed by the opinions of beginners about the right way? Of course not, you want the teacher to teach the right way. And if you believe that he is not teaching the right way, then we are back to the paragraph above.

If you do not want to change sensei's mind, then there is no point at all in the context of the dojo of talking to him about it. There are rules to be followed in the dojo, and it would be better to focus on learning those rules.

So there is no point in arguing, and there is not even a point (in my opinion) in understanding both sides of the issue. There are no "both sides" in the dojo. Having an opinion about the right way to bow in your dojo is like having an opinion about the sum of 5+5.

[The great I AM]

Well I have aspergers so It's easier said then done. I won't do it in before or duting class without his permission but I will contuine to confabulate w/ him about this.

How exactly does having Asperger's Syndrome change keeping your mouth shut and simply not doing it?

[Charuzu]

For thoses wondering I have put it up on the Tsubakiko on the yahoo groups.
And I talked it over with sensei and have decided to finnaly let it rest. So Neal and Everyone else on this board :p I'll do as you say.

Also, as for one who said "
Sounds like an excuse to do whatever the hell you want. " I highly recommend that you do some fact checking before making such rude comments. For I am not doing "Whatever the hell I want" but tring to do what is right. I think that my feelings can be best described by a quote from Imagawa Sadayo "Without knowledge of Learning, one will ultimately have no military victories. One should not be envious of someone who has prospered by unjust deeds. Nor should he disdain someone who has fallen while adhering to the path of righteousness".

As I said I just wanted to find facts yet you go as low as just to insult without jiving ANY useful information. So in short I will go to your lever and tell you straight out at you levcer that I thin you are being quite the prick.

[Charuzu]

How exactly does having Asperger's Syndrome change keeping your mouth shut and simply not doing it?

As for that when I have something on my mind I must follow through.

I am also not the person who just hears something and takes it to be true. I need to be %100 shure. For this reason my teachers in school just love/hate me. lol, It's a double bladed sword. Sometimes I cut down my opponet and other times I slit my own throat.

Also, I appoligize for calling that one guy a prick but you gotta understand, I came here to get "FACTS" to support or disprove my ideas. At first i got some useful comments and then right after it is notthing of use... only slander.

[JSchmidt]

As for that when I have something on my mind I must follow through.


Then get reigi on your mind and follow that through!.

Jakob

[ShinKenshi]

Also, as for one who said "
Sounds like an excuse to do whatever the hell you want. " Where did someone say that? I read carefully through every single post in this thread and didn't find someone saying that. Maybe someone came off as saying that but word for word it's not here.

[Charuzu]

Where did someone say that? I read carefully through every single post in this thread and didn't find someone saying that. Maybe someone came off as saying that but word for word it's not here.

Oh that was in my rep.
Grrrr.... I hate it when people second guess me.
Also, thanks for all that useful info ShinKenshi.

[Charuzu]

Then get reigi on your mind and follow that through!.

Jakob

Hmm... thats new vocab? What does that mean.

Also, I'm doing 1000 suburi (almost) everyday and work on the kata and waza in my house over and over. I'm just sitting and typing becuse it is a bit to hot outside for suburi (I do it during the night or morning) and as for Kata and waza..... damm... Good point!

Nice shomen cut on my head, nice, nice....wait?! Why are you reading this insted of doing suburi, huh? (J/K)

(For those of you who don't know J/K means Joking)

[Kingofmyrrh]

Reigi is another word for etiquette. The first step is: follow your teacher. Think about that. Until you do, it doesn't matter how much suburi or whatever you do, you'll never understand anything about kendo.

[Charuzu]

Actualy if I were to follow Regi I would say that kendo is a sport. I disagree, I think it is a way of life. Also, I have to disagree with you. I think that If one lies to ones self and the world that he will lose his honesty. I pride my honesty and I refuse to just go without voicing my oppion.

Also, have you not read over my post where I said "I talked it over with sensei and have decided to finnaly let it rest. So Neal and Everyone else on this board :p I'll do as you say." It is post #22.
KingOfMyrrh, please Read and study before you start insulting people.

[JSchmidt]

I refuse to just go without voicing my oppion.


Then don't be surprised if your teacher wont teach you.

Jakob

[Paikea]

..blahblahblah...So in short I will go to your lever and tell you straight out at you levcer that I thin you are being quite the prick.
That would be me. I do check facts, (and read previous posts) and the comment stands.

Meantime, take a good look at what you say/write and do tell how you're just being innocently misunderstood.

[Kingofmyrrh]

KingOfMyrrh, please Read and study before you start insulting people.
No problem baby! Write me some legible prose and I'll do my best to read it! I do appreciate having people like you around - it always lightens my day! For a guy who likes to be %100 sure (you might want to Read and study how to employ a percentage sign) you're pretty ill-informed yourself. Do you really think you know better than the experienced posters here, some of whom were doing kendo before you were even born?

abayo!

[Charuzu]

No problem baby! Write me some legible prose and I'll do my best to read it! I do appreciate having people like you around - it always lightens my day! For a guy who likes to be %100 sure (you might want to Read and study how to employ a percentage sign) you're pretty ill-informed yourself. Do you really think you know better than the experienced posters here, some of whom were doing kendo before you were even born?

abayo!

By the way since you care so much about spelling it is spelled "Posts", not "prose"


Meantime, take a good look at what you say/write and do tell how you're just being innocently misunderstood.
"Also, I appoligize for calling that one guy a prick" - Post #23
As, I said read and reserch before insulting. I have no problem forgiving you if you wan't to. If you never admit your mistakes you'll never improve.
Yoiu said "and read previous posts" and still managed to miss my apoligy.

Also, what is it with you people and typos? As long as it is understanabel it really doesn't matter. I don't want to have to type and the then get out the dictionary to make shure that ever little word is spelled right.

Finnaly, this is not the Flames section. Ether post something useful or don't post at all.

[Charuzu]

There are many ways of etiquette in Japanese culture. I don't mean to come down on you, but at 15, why should you know better than him, especially just from reading a few web pages?

Also, Hamish let me quickly clear this up (I just saw your post, watashi wa baka desu ne? lol). I'm case you come accross this topic again the info that I got was from a shinto preist at the Tsubaki Jinja, not websites. I only put up the site becuse it was clost to what we do in class. I have also had various respectable Sensei agree with me. (Although, most are aikido sensei)

[ShinKenshi]

Also, Hamish let me quickly clear this up (I just saw your post, watashi wa baka desu ne? lol). I'm case you come accross this topic again the info that I got was from a shinto preist at the Tsubaki Jinja, not websites. I only put up the site becuse it was clost to what we do in class. I have also had various respectable Sensei agree with me. (Although, most are aikido sensei) Here's where the big problem steps in. Other sensei do things differently. Those aikido sensei are NOT your kendo sensei so therefore you should not presume that your kendo sensei should do things like them. Again, to go against the grain is to mark yourself as arrogant and disrespectful. You're only 15 and you presume to think you can tell your sensei what to do?!?!? Honestly, listen to yourself! Do you have any idea what you sound like and how other's react to that kind of talk? I don't mean to sound harsh but grow up and don't think that you know all that there is to know, even after you conduct "thorough research." I know I'm only five years older than you but I know that I don't nearly know enough to question my sensei about something like this. And a word about typos and such. The way you type speaks volumes about who you are. Based on the large amount of simple typos, incorrect spelling and grammar, it would appear that you don't seem to pay attention to details. I could very well be wrong here and for all I know you may be the kind of person who picks apart every single little detail about anything. I'm just telling you this is how people are beginning to see you. Since the only things that represent you here are you posts, it would be a good idea to keep this in mind. Also, you might want to look up the word "prose" and see why that post of yours "correcting" someone might be seen as rather laughable.

[Charuzu]

Here's where the big problem steps in. Other sensei do things differently. Those aikido sensei are NOT your kendo sensei so therefore you should not presume that your kendo sensei should do things like them. Again, to go against the grain is to mark yourself as arrogant and disrespectful. You're only 15 and you presume to think you can tell your sensei what to do?!?!? Honestly, listen to yourself! Do you have any idea what you sound like and how other's react to that kind of talk? I don't mean to sound harsh but grow up and don't think that you know all that there is to know, even after you conduct "thorough research." I know I'm only five years older than you but I know that I don't nearly know enough to question my sensei about something like this. And a word about typos and such. The way you type speaks volumes about who you are. Based on the large amount of simple typos, incorrect spelling and grammar, it would appear that you don't seem to pay attention to details. I could very well be wrong here and for all I know you may be the kind of person who picks apart every single little detail about anything. I'm just telling you this is how people are beginning to see you. Since the only things that represent you here are you posts, it would be a good idea to keep this in mind. Also, you might want to look up the word "prose" and see why that post of yours "correcting" someone might be seen as rather laughable.

Actualy, I pointed "Prose" out to sho that some one who is complaining about spelling is doing the same. It was meant to be laughable, jokes are usaly laughable. Rember, This is a online fourm not a school essay.
I don't care about spelling.... most people don't. (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7498&page=1&pp=15)

This thread started out with some great threads, but you are sliding into something compleatly seprate. Also, I do not practice Kendo but Kenjutsu and Batto-jutsu.
And since when do kendoka know more about shinto then a shinto preist?

If things contuinue to sprial downwards like this It'll just turn into a fight on the "Flames section". Constructive critism is good but plain insults are bad.
Also, saing that you can tell who someone is via their spelling is just plain crazy.

Also, I don't mind how people view me as long as it helps everone improve. If he were talking about goza cutting or something like that, I would have no right to speak. And It's not like I am telling him, YOUR WRONG!, No I went to various web groups and fourms and went to research If I was wrong, or if sensei just got confused. Rember, he doesn't talk to Saruta-sensei everyday, lol.

And in the end I sayed that I'll just let it rest (post #22) but then around post #32 It just became a insult-fest. So I listen to everyones advice, apoligize all to.... get insulted! yep, happy happy joy joy. I already gave in what else do you want? All that I want is a apoligy from kingofmyrrh for that insulting comment.

[Charuzu]

ShinKenshi... I just read you message great points.

Now have all of you noted that I have gave in? I have agreed not to go against my sensei on it anymore? Now, have any of you noted that this therad is 2x the size it needed to be?

For all of you who provided useful info and constructive critism... thank you.
Kingofmirrh.... I still expect an appoligy

[ShinKenshi]

Also, I do not practice Kendo but Kenjutsu and Batto-jutsu. Okay, now it makes much more sense. Sorry about the mix up.


And since when do kendoka know more about shinto then a shinto preist?We're not saying we know more than a Shinto priest. What we are saying is that no matter what your martial art, if it's Japanese then you follow your sensei without question. If it's something blatantly wrong like he's sticking his shinken into the ground or something like that, then you should say something.

The main thing that's getting people all up in arms is the fact that you insisted on questioning your sensei about this. None of us would ever do that. We would maybe ask about it once and then let it be and accept it.

[Hai_hai]

This was an interesting read.

Charuzu,
Your post began well-intentioned and then wavered into showing that you are a bit naive. Plus, you have misunderstood some people and became a blabbering fool. I'll just dump the reigi...

BAKA!!!

[Charuzu]

Okay, now it makes much more sense. Sorry about the mix up.
It's ok.. I have a tendencay to be an arse sometimes.

We're not saying we know more than a Shinto priest. What we are saying is that no matter what your martial art, if it's Japanese then you follow your sensei without question. If it's something blatantly wrong like he's sticking his shinken into the ground or something like that, then you should say something.
It's just that I feel that the Kamidana is a religious item, It's one thing If the sensei doesn't incorprate it in becuse of peoples diffrent beleafs. But I beleve that it is another thing if others cant volentarly. As I said I have a tendencay to be an arse on some things.

The main thing that's getting people all up in arms is the fact that you insisted on questioning your sensei about this. None of us would ever do that. We would maybe ask about it once and then let it be and accept it.
As I said earlier, I have large problems letting go of things. Becuse of asburgers syndrome when I have my mind set on doing something I usally follow through.
But in the end I listend to everyones advice, anbd let it die yet they still talk about it as I am still going up against him. Also they make it not seem like I am fact checking but that I am going for all-out-war. I greatly respect my sensei. I just have to speak my ideas to let it rest in peace

[Charuzu]

This was an interesting read.

Charuzu,
Your post began well-intentioned and then wavered into showing that you are a bit naive. Plus, you have misunderstood some people and became a blabbering fool. I'll just dump the reigi...

BAKA!!!
Hai_hai my divine god... why must you smite theee!!! Even after I apoligized? Why ... whhhhhhhhhhyyyyyyy.......... *melts*

[Kingofmyrrh]

By the way since you care so much about spelling it is spelled "Posts", not "prose".
I LOVE YOU I LOVE YOU I LOVE YOU!
Yes, you are a spelling pedant's wet dream.
Consult your dictionary. Look up the word 'prose'. I'm expecting an apology!!!

As for the actual topic of this thread, the post by Shinkenshi 'Here's where.....' is an extremely clear and well-written answer (as are the others that you've chosen to ignore, but what can we do..?). I don't think there's any need to add to it.

...still waiting for that apology...

[ShinKenshi]

Ok guys, this one's to everyone who's been following this thread. I think we can all agree on a few things. First, Charuzu has the tendency to be an ass sometimes (his own words) and has a hard time of letting go of things. Second, we've pretty much bashed this topic into oblivion and Charuzu has settled it. Conclusion: time to stop bashing him over this and get back to more productive things in life, like doing 1000 suburi to make up for the time we all spend here:D!

[hyuna]

Actualy if I were to follow Regi I would say that kendo is a sport.
I think this is an interesting and rather unusual thing to say. Why do you believe that reigi makes kendo a sport?

[The great I AM]

I think this is an interesting and rather unusual thing to say. Why do you believe that reigi makes kendo a sport?

I agree! I always thought that reigi was one of the fundamental parts of kendo that sets it apart from sport, not the other way around. Explain away!

[Paikea]

Also, I appoligize for calling that one guy a prick" - Post #23
As, I said read and reserch before insulting. I have no problem forgiving you if you wan't to. If you never admit your mistakes you'll never improve.
Yoiu said "and read previous posts" and still managed to miss my apoligy.
Well, that's a relief. I feel so much better.

[Charuzu]

As for the sport thing thats just becuse my sensei thinks that kendo is just a sport. However, I want to learn kendo really bad. So what if a kendoka cant cut goza? They still have a fighting spirit. But stil he is a good guy, thoses are the only things I disagrred with him.

PS- Yes you have beaten me to a pulp.

[Hai_hai]

Hai_hai my divine god... why must you smite theee!!! Even after I apoligized? Why ... whhhhhhhhhhyyyyyyy.......... *melts*


I love to smite. I'm good at it.

[Hai_hai]

...Yes, you are a spelling pedant's wet dream...
Touché.

There was a delicious number of misspellings. 'Twas a dream.

[Charuzu]

Touché.

There was a delicious number of misspellings. 'Twas a dream.

But this is a web fourm not a school essay. Not only that but as long as you can understand what people are saying I really dont think it matters. It was posted as a insult with nothing even slightly related to the topic. The question was was I wrong or was my sensei confused about something. Then It understandably turned into an argument about respect twords sensei. But then around post #32. But I already agreed to let it rest at post #22. It's like now that I have agreed and decided to leave it to rest you needed to bring up something eles to bash me with. Yes, my comments might of been stupid, but what is to point of all this now?

[pgsmith]

Yeah, I'm coming in late, but there are a couple of very important points that haven't been made here that I feel need to be made.

But this is a web fourm not a school essay. Not only that but as long as you can understand what people are saying I really dont think it matters.
It matters to an extreme degree. Taking the small amount of extra effort to double check your own written words is an expression of how a person approaches everything. If you only bother to be exact in a school essay, does that mean that you are only going to bother to be exact with your sword if it is a formal testing? That sort of attitude results in missing digits! In order to properly learn battojutsu, being exact must become as much a part of your life as breathing. There are no second chances with a three foot razor blade!

The question was was I wrong or was my sensei confused about something.
Others have pointed out that your question is irrelevant, but I don't think you quite grasped what they were trying to tell you. It doesn't matter even a little bit if you are right, your sensei is wrong, or you are both somewhere in between. Your sensei told you how it was done. That is the final word. The only thing that is left for you to say in that situation is "Hai sensei!" Usually, the only way to argue is to find another dojo. If you were attending my dojo, you would be doing just that right now. Luckily for you, Ryu Sei Ken is done in more of a western style than the vast majority of sword schools. Your instructor seems to also be an unusually patient sort.

Do not consider this a personal attack on you (many teens are quick to perceive things that way). It is merely meant to try and help you out. Consider what I wrote, and what others have written in this thread. It will serve you well if you are serious about continuing your education in swordsmanship.

Cheers,

[Charuzu]

Yeah, I'm coming in late, but there are a couple of very important points that haven't been made here that I feel need to be made.

It matters to an extreme degree. Taking the small amount of extra effort to double check your own written words is an expression of how a person approaches everything. If you only bother to be exact in a school essay, does that mean that you are only going to bother to be exact with your sword if it is a formal testing? That sort of attitude results in missing digits! In order to properly learn battojutsu, being exact must become as much a part of your life as breathing. There are no second chances with a three foot razor blade!

But the thing is I really dont care at all about spelling... really.... as long as is a readable it is OK in my mind. If someone wants to juge be becuse of my spelling let them go ahead... you cant tell who someone is through spelling... this has already been disproven by the History Channel. If you want to talk about spelling do it here. (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7498&page=1&pp=15)


Others have pointed out that your question is irrelevant, but I don't think you quite grasped what they were trying to tell you. It doesn't matter even a little bit if you are right, your sensei is wrong, or you are both somewhere in between. Your sensei told you how it was done. That is the final word. The only thing that is left for you to say in that situation is "Hai sensei!" Usually, the only way to argue is to find another dojo. If you were attending my dojo, you would be doing just that right now. Luckily for you, Ryu Sei Ken is done in more of a western style than the vast majority of sword schools.

Yes, true but I came here to ask. Intrestingly enougth no one ever spoke out about against it at E-budo or any of the various shinto groups. Now I am new to the art and rather.... how do I put this...... stupid/arrogant? (Can't think of a better word) Also, as for what you would do.... It doesn't really affect me. I already decided to draw my oppion even though 3/4 of the groups agreed with me. I already admited that I made a mistake... what else do you want me to do?? What is done is done... get over it.


Your instructor seems to also be an unusually patient sort.
He is... he is a really good person.



Do not consider this a personal attack on you (many teens are quick to perceive things that way). It is merely meant to try and help you out. Consider what I wrote, and what others have written in this thread. It will serve you well if you are serious about continuing your education in swordsmanship.

Cheers,

I have read it and the 2 things that you addressed are spelling (That has nothing to do with the topic) and 'Respect in the dojo' a topic that I already apoligized for. Also, in the end this didn't affect my 'continuing your education in swordsmanship'. I may be an arrogant person or I could not. Eather way is it OK to say that someone is a bad Martial artist when he questions the sensei after only learning for a litle over 2 months or becuse he makes spelling errors?? I'm a n00b... not a seasond kendoka. No one told me about that untill I posted here. And really... when you were a teen did you listen to that uber-helpful guy before you really needed it?

PS - You post was on the thoughtful side so I can agree that this isn't a personal attack. Thank you for you thoughts. ^o^

[pgsmith]

If someone wants to juge be becuse of my spelling let them go ahead... you cant tell who someone is through spelling... this has already been disproven by the History Channel.
Please go back and read what I wrote before. Not knowing how to spell a particular word and not taking the time to look it up is not a big deal. I could care less about your spelling, it is the attention to detail that will hurt you in the end. Making simple spelling mistakes because you didn't bother to to look is not attending to details. Battojutsu is ALL about attention to details.

I already admited that I made a mistake... what else do you want me to do?? What is done is done... get over it.
I have no need to "get over anything" thank you very much.

Now I am new to the art and rather.... how do I put this...... stupid/arrogant?
I would say much more arrogant than stupid. Arrogance is NOT a good thing to have when learning the sword. Since you are, by your own admission, a very new student, I will clue you in to something that you seem to be missing. Every time you post something in a public forum, you are representing your school and your instructor. You become a reflection of them. Whether that reflection is ugly or not is entirely up to the person doing the posting. Now this is not a big deal in the kendo world, as there are quite a lot of kendoka all around the country and so it's very hard to keep track. It IS a big deal in the iaido/battojutsu/kenjutsu world as we are still quite a small community. If you are arrogant and contentious rather than thoughtful in your comments, it makes people wonder about your school and training. Some people may even wonder enough to ask your sensei. Trust me, this would embarrass your sensei just as if you were cussing at people walking by in front of the dojo. While I understand enough to know where you are coming from, others could form a very bad opinion of your school just based upon your responses.

Also, in the end this didn't affect my 'continuing your education in swordsmanship'.
If you are still practicing in five or six years, then I'll grant you that statement. Not until then though.

PS - You post was on the thoughtful side so I can agree that this isn't a personal attack. Thank you for you thoughts.
You're very welcome.

Cheers,

[ShinKenshi]

But the thing is I really dont care at all about spelling... really.... as long as is a readable it is OK in my mind. If someone wants to juge be becuse of my spelling let them go ahead... you cant tell who someone is through spelling... this has already been disproven by the History Channel. If you want to talk about spelling do it here. (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7498&page=1&pp=15) Don't be so quick to trust the History Channel with everything. They've made several big factual mistakes in their programs so don't take everything they say as true.

You'd be surprised by how often people see a corrolation between spelling and the way you live. Someone used a job interview as an example. You would never submit your resume with a bunch of typos or spelling errors and arrive to your interview wearing beach clothes because that would make you look unprofessional and sloppy. Henry Ford would take job applicants out to lunch and observed their eating habits and if they put salt on their food without tasting it first, he wouldn't hire them because his experience was that people who did that acted on assumptions and prior judgements rather than trying something first. The neat-freaks I meet at college never have any typos or misspellings whatsoever and those that live like total slobs have a tendency to cut corners on papers and caucus postings. I'm not trying to harp on you or make a personal attack. This is just what I've noticed


Intrestingly enougth no one ever spoke out about against it at E-budo or any of the various shinto groups. Did you mention that it was in the context of before and after battojutsu practice?


Eather way is it OK to say that someone is a bad Martial artist when he questions the sensei after only learning for a litle over 2 months or becuse he makes spelling errors?? I'm a n00b... not a seasond kendoka. No one told me about that untill I posted here. No one would have said anything if you had asked your sensei about it first instead of just doing it. By going ahead and doing this when no one else was, that labeled you as arrogant in a lot of people's mind's here. I'm sure we all ask our sensei's about things all the time, but something like this you really should have spoken to your sensei about before doing it. I know that you decided on what to do long ago but I'm just offering you an explanation as to why people went a little nuts here.


And really... when you were a teen did you listen to that uber-helpful guy before you really needed it? If you mean did we ever listen to someone offering advice then yes, on numerous occasions.

Please, don't take this personally, I really don't mean for it to be. If anything I've typed here has offended you or made you angry, I'm sorry. This is just my two cents and offering some sort of explanation for things. Take what you will from it.

[Paikea]

I have no need to "get over anything" thank you very much.
And if you're very special he may forgive you, too.


I would say much more arrogant than stupid. Arrogance is NOT a good thing to have when learning the sword. Since you are, by your own admission, a very new student, I will clue you in to something that you seem to be missing. Every time you post something in a public forum, you are representing your school and your instructor. You become a reflection of them. Whether that reflection is ugly or not is entirely up to the person doing the posting.

Now this is not a big deal in the kendo world, as there are quite a lot of kendoka all around the country and so it's very hard to keep track.It's a bigger deal than many might think. Lots of high-level people lurk, but do not post. People can't help but form opinions based on what they see - whether it's the complete picture or not.

[Charuzu]

OK... I'll try my best to return the comments lets start with Pgsmith:

"Please go back and read what I wrote before. Not knowing how to spell a particular word and not taking the time to look it up is not a big deal. I could care less about your spelling, it is the attention to detail that will hurt you in the end. Making simple spelling mistakes because you didn't bother to to look is not attending to details. Battojutsu is ALL about attention to details."

Since when are battojutsu and spelling the same? If you want to dissuss spelling go to the proper thread (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7498&page=1&pp=15).

I would say much more arrogant than stupid. Arrogance is NOT a good thing to have when learning the sword. Since you are, by your own admission, a very new student, I will clue you in to something that you seem to be missing. Every time you post something in a public forum, you are representing your school and your instructor. You become a reflection of them. Whether that reflection is ugly or not is entirely up to the person doing the posting. Now this is not a big deal in the kendo world, as there are quite a lot of kendoka all around the country and so it's very hard to keep track. It IS a big deal in the iaido/battojutsu/kenjutsu world as we are still quite a small community. If you are arrogant and contentious rather than thoughtful in your comments, it makes people wonder about your school and training. Some people may even wonder enough to ask your sensei. Trust me, this would embarrass your sensei just as if you were cussing at people walking by in front of the dojo. While I understand enough to know where you are coming from, others could form a very bad opinion of your school just based upon your responses.
Good point! Their is nothing I can say about this comment. For that I appoligize.

If you are still practicing in five or six years, then I'll grant you that statement. Not until then though.
In 5-6 years PM me ^o^

You're very welcome.
Why thank you ^o^
*******************
Now on to Shinkenshi

Don't be so quick to trust the History Channel with everything. They've made several big factual mistakes in their programs so don't take everything they say as true.
Huh... I never know that. I just walked away from my computer just a little bit smarter now. Thanks. ^o^

You'd be surprised by how often people see a corrolation between spelling and the way you live. Someone used a job interview as an example. You would never submit your resume with a bunch of typos or spelling errors and arrive to your interview wearing beach clothes because that would make you look unprofessional and sloppy. Henry Ford would take job applicants out to lunch and observed their eating habits and if they put salt on their food without tasting it first, he wouldn't hire them because his experience was that people who did that acted on assumptions and prior judgements rather than trying something first. The neat-freaks I meet at college never have any typos or misspellings whatsoever and those that live like total slobs have a tendency to cut corners on papers and caucus postings. I'm not trying to harp on you or make a personal attack. This is just what I've noticed
Yes but this is a forum... if you look at the link that I keep on posting then you'll see that I'm not the only one who doesn't care at all about spelling as long as it's not AOL or 1334_H@x0r speek.

Did you mention that it was in the context of before and after battojutsu practice?
I posted the same exact thing on all places (You can see that with the uber-larger typo that I made is in all of them). What you guys saw is what everyone else saw.

No one would have said anything if you had asked your sensei about it first instead of just doing it. By going ahead and doing this when no one else was, that labeled you as arrogant in a lot of people's mind's here. I'm sure we all ask our sensei's about things all the time, but something like this you really should have spoken to your sensei about before doing it. I know that you decided on what to do long ago but I'm just offering you an explanation as to why people went a little nuts here.
I just saw the kamidana and thought 'kashiwade'. If you see a door do you ask how to use it?

If you mean did we ever listen to someone offering advice then yes, on numerous occasions.
I guess that my generation is a bit slower then. ^o^
Please, don't take this personally, I really don't mean for it to be. If anything I've typed here has offended you or made you angry, I'm sorry. This is just my two cents and offering some sort of explanation for things. Take what you will from it.
Hey, you brought up some valid points. I am not disapointed at all. Also, could you please tell me what the history channel messed up on. Be exact becuse I am planning on e-mailing them to tell them of their mistake.
************
Now on to Paikea:

And if you're very special he may forgive you, too.
Who? Me or one of the other people? Sorry, I don't get eho you are talking about.

It's a bigger deal than many might think. Lots of high-level people lurk, but do not post. People can't help but form opinions based on what they see - whether it's the complete picture or not.
Should I ask for this thread to be removed then? (If it's possible)

[ShinKenshi]

I don't quite remember off the top of my head but a couple of my friends watched a couple programs (they happen to be history majors) and there were a few major things wrong and I asked them about it and they said that it wasn't the first time they've made mistakes. Now keep in mind these two are HUGE history buffs so not much gets past them. In general I've developed a healthy level of skeptesism with all things claiming to be factual. If I see the same thing with multiple sources then I accept it as fact. Since I'm a little hazy on which programs they messed up on, I'd hold off on that email. I'm sure they've gotten several already from others who caught those things.

[Charuzu]

I don't quite remember off the top of my head but a couple of my friends watched a couple programs (they happen to be history majors) and there were a few major things wrong and I asked them about it and they said that it wasn't the first time they've made mistakes. Now keep in mind these two are HUGE history buffs so not much gets past them. In general I've developed a healthy level of skeptesism with all things claiming to be factual. If I see the same thing with multiple sources then I accept it as fact. Since I'm a little hazy on which programs they messed up on, I'd hold off on that email. I'm sure they've gotten several already from others who caught those things.

K, By any chance are they in the syracuse area? I am with a group they might be intrested in.

[ShinKenshi]

K, By any chance are they in the syracuse area? I am with a group they might be intrested in. Nope, one's in State College, PA, one right now is in Guatemala I think (he was still working out his summer plans when I last checked), and the other is from somewhere in the Midwest.

[Charuzu]

Nope, one's in State College, PA, one right now is in Guatemala I think (he was still working out his summer plans when I last checked), and the other is from somewhere in the Midwest.

O-well. I was going to point them here (http://www.the12thus.com) but I guess that they might be intrested in a local unit?

[ShinKenshi]

O-well. I was going to point them here (http://www.the12thus.com/) but I guess that they might be intrested in a local unit? Looks great and fun to do but I don't think they'd go for it. They're more the bookish type and one of them hates guns in any shape or form.

[Charuzu]

Looks great and fun to do but I don't think they'd go for it. They're more the bookish type and one of them hates guns in any shape or form.

O-well, they are missing out. It's really fun running around in a wool Jacket, vest and pants. (And some people complain about the heat in their bogu)

[pgsmith]

Since when are battojutsu and spelling the same?
Perhaps I gave you too much credit for arrogance? :) I tried to put it as plainly and simply as I could that battojutsu, like spelling, is all about attention to details!. At the moment, you've no idea what battojutsu is about, you should just be trying to understand. Since you are obviously extremely enamored of your own opinions, I'll try to refrain from helping you out in the future. Too much frustration on my part, too little effort to understand on yours. Too bad really, I get the feeling you are going to need all the help you can get. :)

Try not to be too much of an embarrassment to your dojo.

Cheers,

[piggy]

reading this thread makes me wonder if im arrogant...

i really hope not.
it would be terrible to be shameful to my dojo.