No fumikomi in kendo

[misterkurukuru]

a hachi dan sensei told me that doing fumikomi in kendo is a waste of time. he said that all you need to do is slide. He is a hachi dan... whats up with that??????:confused: i think you need to stomp, but the guy is a hachi dan... you cannot ignore that right?

[Nishi]

Interseting....mabye he dosnt have to fumikomi, but for now i do!!
Until i understand what hes talking about anyway.

I must look into this deeper.

[qpuppy]

eeee......

Old man kendo?....

hehheheh.. sorry to be rude... :p

[alexpollijr]

Plonk.

[munenmuso]

Is your hachidan sensei a Japanese or not?

[nodachi]

GOOD QUESTION!!! Also, where did your sensei get this idea from or is this his own personal opinion? It may lead to some interesting information on people's or countries different styles?

Enlighten me...

[sminki]

I think the hachi dan sensei may have been talking about a shinken situation rather than kendo. I think that in a shinken shobu situation, you wouldn't actually stomp, but simply transfer your weight towar the front as you cut. I've heard senseis talking about cutting and how ki ken tai no ichi is achieved not by stomping, but by simply transfering your weight. In kendo, which is hitting (although it should in theory emulate cutting) the ki ken tai no ichi has come to be stomping.

[mingshi]

I was about to ask too, seriously:

Why stamp?

To archieve Ki-ken-tai-ichi, do you really have to stamp?
Pick Kendo Kata for example. You just step in, slide in, and no stamping is involved.... Right?

That's also a problem with the weight transfer thing... When you stamp where you suppose to have your center of gravity?

[sminki]

Kendo kata emulates shinken shobu. That's why you simply transfer the weight by sliding as opposed to stomping.

In kendo, we all know that the shinai cannot cut through. So it does become, by the virtue of its pure nature, a hitting exercise although people try to emulate cutting. And in hitting, things like tatotsu and sae comes to be emphasized and as you need to have a precise moment of impact with a shinai, the ki ken tai manifests itself in stomping.

In shinken shobu (or kata) it is not hitting, but real cutting motion that we go through and the moment of impact becomes a prolonged period of impact as the blade actually cuts through. For this a sliding and pushing your foot motion would be better to sustain the cutting force throughout the strike.

As per center of gravity, I think that the center of gravity should always be at tanzen (below the navel), upon stomping, your weight is mostly on the right foot. (This is not conflicting as your tanzen should be in-line (and not behind or before) with the right foot.)

[misterkurukuru]

beats me were he got that stuff. he is japanese. yea it is old man kendo...but are you going to tell a hachi dan sensei that?

[Steve]

I think what it comes down to is that in the end, all you need is basics. A beginner starts with "big waza", then almost exclusively changes to "small waza". As they age, become more skilled, and begin to really understand the theory of Kendo they change back to "big waza". Why? Its "proper Kendo". I guess the same applies to footwork. The basic movement is simple sliding. Most people just aren't good enough at Kendo to rely on this alone

My opinion anyway...

[Inouye02]

haha i heard no fumikomi also, i think its called ashi ittai as you get older ...also its been about 25 yrs since i practiced with this sensei, and he asked why do i stomp..my reply ...ummm because you taught me that way many years ago ...

[JSchmidt]

The way I've heard it explained, is that you shouldn't actually 'stomp', but the sound should come as a natural part of your footwork, as you use the front foot to propel yourself past the opponent...and even if there's no sound, as long as you have ki-ken-tai no ichi, it's sufficient.

Jakob

[Hyaku]

My old teacher's fumikomi is very spareing.
His foot leaves the floor momentarily.

He projects well forward with the knee. In doing so his stamp is merely a natural reaction that follows on from this. His foot just hovers momentarily. By the time you realize what's happened it "has" happened
and he is saying Kakari Geiko. He only gives you a few chances to hit him. If he feels your messing about or you are just not up to it. "Kakari geiko".... Back down to the other end of the dojo with your tail between your legs hoping you might "possibly" hit him at evening practice.

Taking it even further where exactly do we intend on placing the feet as we stamp? He told me years ago that Oasa Yuji Judan said it should be with a feeling of trying to lightly stamp on the opponents feet. There is also a story that relates to Oasa Sensei spreading beans all over the dojo floor to ensure that a smooth sliding action was incorperated.

So saying when I look at a video of them all doing Kendo at the Tenran (Emperors) Taikai in the 1940s the back foot remains stationary and twists to an angle as the front is stamped. So whatever we do now is a reformed method.

In Kenjutsu we use an alternating stamping method. It took me ages to get the hang of it. Imagine lifting up the leg about a foot but bringing it down on almost the same place it started from. Its a bit like a funny small goose step.

Either way and most important is the smooth projection well inside that culminates in the stamp and not the stamp itself. Is nice to see people who can slide well inside to the extent that the opponent is not even aware of it.

Hyaku

[Steve]

Kendo footwork has changed in the past 15 years or so. A former instructor of ours told me this. She said that they used to teach students to life their front leg up much higher. This makes the kendoka look as though they are almost floating in mid-air while they attack. Pretty neat, but painful while trying to learn it.

anyway thats how she learned in Japan from her sensei (her father) and was still part of his class when thinkgs changed.

On a side note, she rocked at Kendo! She's a Sandan and went to university on a Kendo scholarship. Her University team was ranked 3rd in Tokyo. Now she's just too busy to do Kendo anymore.... <sigh>

[Neil Gendzwill]

You don't need fumikomi. The concept is "ki-ken-tai-ichi" which means your body must be coordinated with your sword and spirit. Stomping the foot is one way of getting that coordination. But if you watch, you will see lots of advanced people hitting with only suri-ashi or ayumi-ashi. The kote in kata #6 is a good example of this - take yourself offline of the incoming attack by stepping left, then step onto your right foot and deliver the kote. No stomp required. I have seen Haga-sensei (hanshi hachidan) do this against people 50 years younger with success. From the side, he doesn't appear to be moving quickly at all.

Having said that, for most of the people reading this you should be doing fumikomi. Walk before you can run as they say.

[ben]

I think you have to pass through fumikomi before you can do no fumikomi. It's like many sensei also say, you shouldn't have blisters or callouses on your hands and your shinai should last for years. Were a beginner to take these sayings to heart, they would end up with a kendo that lacked any intensity. I think it's a bit disingenuous of a hachi-dan to tell a sho-dan that they needn't use fumikomi.

b

[Kendoka]

Originally posted by misterkurukuru
a hachi dan sensei told me that doing fumikomi in kendo is a waste of time. he said that all you need to do is slide. He is a hachi dan... whats up with that??????:confused: i think you need to stomp, but the guy is a hachi dan... you cannot ignore that right?

The sound of the foot landing is as a result of correctly performed fumi-komi.

If you concentrate on "stomping" or "stamping" you have the potential to damage your ankle, knee and hip and probably are not able to follow through after the cut correctly either.

If however you concentrate on correct technique, your foot will produce a "stamping" like sound as the weight transfers as a result of correctly performed fumi-komi.

J. Scmidt has it correct.

[Karaken]

I agree with Jacob. Fumikomi shouldn't be done with purpose, it should be an inconsequential result of ki-ken-tai-ichi. If you have that there's no need for fumikomi but if it happens, that's OK too. The problem is when you're trying to score from Toma ( far-far-distance) you almost have to raise your foot high even to get there - Making a loud noise coming down. Almost all Kendo pictures from shiai, unfortunately, feature these kind of pictures because they look dynamic and interesting..

When was the last time you saw 8th dan picture on any Kendo related article or web? ( except 8th dan tournament of course )

Center-Take it and keep it.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Let's get some terms straight. Fumikomi is the technique where you raise the foot off the ground and land on it again in sync with the cut. We call the footwork fumikomi-ashi and the technique tobikomi-men or fumikomi-men (or -whatever point). I don't know what to call the sound that results from that other than the "stomp". So there's two interpretations to the question. 1. Do I need to use fumikomi-ashi to score a point and 2. If I use fumikomi-ashi do I need to have a stomp sound.

The answer to both questions is no. For 1, the judges are looking for ki-ken-tai-ichi and you can demonstrate this with fumikomi-ashi or suri-ashi or ayumi-ashi. For 2, the sound is a side effect of the technique. So long as your body and your sword are together, you're OK by me.

Caveat for answer #1 - if you're a beginner (< 3 dan) then you should work on getting your fumikomi-ashi right before trying other footwork. Also the reality of judging is that if they hear that stomp and that thwack together, the flag is more likely to go up.

Caveat for answer #2 - if you don't have a sound then your fumikomi-ashi is probably wrong, or you are quite a light person.

Also I disagree that you need to raise your foot high to get good distance. If your foot is more than a few inches off the floor, it's too high, fix it. Goose-stepping kendo is always wrong and jumping kendo is high school stuff. Most of us here need proper adult kendo technique.

[Karaken]

Neil, I totally agree with you. I even know that I shouldn't try to hit men from very far distance. However, I'm not very tall person and if I strech my stance too wide without raising my foot high, I'm too low to hit men. I know, I should work on my footwork instead of trying to hit from a distance..

Guess I saw too many pictures of the kind.

Center - men - Center

[Kendoboy]

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill
Caveat for answer #2 - if you don't have a sound then your fumikomi-ashi is probably wrong, or you are quite a light person.


Us flat footed people have a hard time too, since the sound isn't a stomp per say, but a release of air from the cupped underside of the foot.

[Tenken]

I think fumikomi is important. by doing so even the lightest hitter could be change to strong hitter. What i am trying to say is, by doing fumikomi, your hits could sound, feel, and also look more powerful.

It might be a good idea to try it at your dojo next time. Have someone watch, and do some mens without fumikomi and some with. Then you will see the difference. If you have some people say" don't have to do fumikomi" well, I guess it works for them without fumikomi.

For those people who have flat foot (like myself) it sometime helps if you slap the floor with your foot insted of stoping the floor so hard. This works when you hurt your foot during tournaments or practices also.

[HandsomeWarrior]

Let's get some terms straight. Fumikomi is the technique where you raise the foot off the ground and land on it again in sync with the cut.

Actually Neil, I have read fumikomi being described as just the stamping part on the floor, whereas the pushing with the left leg is called fumikiri. As far as I know (which is very little) the raising of the right floor from the ground has no specific name, though I would love to be proven wrong just to clarify this. It would be interesting to know if that motion has a proper name so that we can use it for future debates.

[Kingofmyrrh]

C'mon, this is four years old...

[HandsomeWarrior]

...
you know I´m a slow reader...


...lol. Sorry. I didn´t realize it. I was searching about fumikomi and this thing appeared around :p

[MAZ77]

a hachi dan sensei told me that doing fumikomi in kendo is a waste of time. he said that all you need to do is slide. He is a hachi dan... whats up with that??????:confused: i think you need to stomp, but the guy is a hachi dan... you cannot ignore that right?


So.....what exactly are you doing with this? You know where its going to go, and to some extent, not kosher.

[ahmed61086]

Let's get some terms straight. Fumikomi is the technique where you raise the foot off the ground and land on it again in sync with the cut. We call the footwork fumikomi-ashi and the technique tobikomi-men or fumikomi-men (or -whatever point). I don't know what to call the sound that results from that other than the "stomp". So there's two interpretations to the question. 1. Do I need to use fumikomi-ashi to score a point and 2. If I use fumikomi-ashi do I need to have a stomp sound.

The answer to both questions is no. For 1, the judges are looking for ki-ken-tai-ichi and you can demonstrate this with fumikomi-ashi or suri-ashi or ayumi-ashi. For 2, the sound is a side effect of the technique. So long as your body and your sword are together, you're OK by me.

Caveat for answer #1 - if you're a beginner (< 3 dan) then you should work on getting your fumikomi-ashi right before trying other footwork. Also the reality of judging is that if they hear that stomp and that thwack together, the flag is more likely to go up.

Caveat for answer #2 - if you don't have a sound then your fumikomi-ashi is probably wrong, or you are quite a light person.

Also I disagree that you need to raise your foot high to get good distance. If your foot is more than a few inches off the floor, it's too high, fix it. Goose-stepping kendo is always wrong and jumping kendo is high school stuff. Most of us here need proper adult kendo technique.

I have been told by high rankings sensei, that they want to hear the sound of the fumikomi. Even if my kikentai was good, he still wants to hear a strong fumikomi sound.

While I agree and say you dont need fumikomi to score a point, since there are many techniques in which fumikomi is not done(ex. gyaku doh, and some nuki attacks, and doh attack, ect). Yet, there are many judges, who have it ingrained in them, that they want to hear that sound or see the fumikomi to give the point. Whether the are wrong or right, its seems that you should do fumikomi in the competetive arena if you want to get the most points, unless you are very high ranked or physically unable to do fumikomi.

Just my words on it.

[Newbie]

I know someone who had a really bad knee injury. He couldn't fumikomi or if he did it would be weeks before he could train again. But sensei, knowing the injury, kept telling him he had to fumikomi but he'd been told the by Japanese sensei that you don't need to, it's a slide, the ki ken tai no ichi. But the golden rule always follows - do whatever the sensei at the time says. It did mean there were times he wasn't awarded ippon because there was no fumikomi though. Had his knee op now so I don't know if that means he can fumikomi again, I'll ask him.

[Kagerou]

I know someone who had a really bad knee injury. He couldn't fumikomi or if he did it would be weeks before he could train again. But sensei, knowing the injury, kept telling him he had to fumikomi

wow! :eek: No disrespect to whoever the sensei was but I'd be looking for another dojo fast. Your body has to last your whole life and you want to be able to keep doing the things you enjoy until the very end.

[kumaken]

I've been told by a hachi-dan sensei to try to step on my opponents' balls with fumikomi...what's up with that?! (True story.)

[Gideon]

'crush' their spirit perhaps?

[Hisham]

I think you just have to tell yourself that the hachidan sensei can speak another language sometimes :alien:, just do what your teacher tells you to do and you'll be fine.

[Kagerou]

I've been told by a hachi-dan sensei to try to step on my opponents' balls with fumikomi...what's up with that?! (True story.)

This is probably a joke only the other Canucks will get. Remember 'Kids in the Hall'? I'm squishing your head!

[kumaken]

I think you just have to tell yourself that the hachidan sensei can speak another language sometimes :alien:, just do what your teacher tells you to do and you'll be fine.

I know what you mean, but he is my sensei!
I guess it's not enough to imagine steeping on their feet, as I've heard from other teachers.

"This is probably a joke only the other Canucks will get. Remember 'Kids in the Hall'? I'm squishing your head! "

And I guess if you're stepping on his balls and hitting men, you'll be doing both!

[Newbie]

wow! No disrespect to whoever the sensei was but I'd be looking for another dojo fast. Your body has to last your whole life and you want to be able to keep doing the things you enjoy until the very end.

It's weird, actually. He's a very good and well respected Sensei and we're all feeling the loss (he's moved interstate) that is normally very forgiving of people's injuries and limitations. I've never been able to understand it. But it's cool now, friend's had a knee op and back to kendo. It just really did seem strange. It seeemd his lack of fumikomi was holding him back, he really is quite good and hasn't graded for years and years - maybe that's why sensei was so strict on him? Dunno.

[dwez]

This is probably a joke only the other Canucks will get. Remember 'Kids in the Hall'? I'm squishing your head!

No, I'm pinching you face, I'm pinching your face!

[Shazzanzzz]

wow, really old thread, i think it's before i ever even signed up for this site.
I was taught by a hachidan sensei not to (purposely) stomp also. When i practiced there, he always said i stomp too loud, haha. His point was to use fumikomi to bring up the left foot as fast as possible, the stomp is a by-product of the bringing up of the left foot, not the emphasis. The cut should be made at this point (when u snap your hip, straight out your right knee) which is basically when the stomp shoulud be.

But... at the same time, a junior sensei of the same dojo, told beginners to try to do big motions in the stomp, because he thinks it's easier to learn the timing that way. And, as you progress, learn the more efficient footwork....
Just different approaches of teaching i guess.

[misterkurukuru]

rise from the dead!!!!!!!!!

I still learn from this sensei and understand whats going on now. I doubt i will be doing kendo by the time i have to stop stomping. I just want a nicer J.

now die my old thread!

how about re-edumacating me again?!