hachidan senseis....

[qpuppy]

Just wondering... I know there are many many hachidan sensei out there in Japan and the rest of the world... but i believe they are all Japanese. All the time when we talk about hachidan senseis.... we all think "Japanese" senseis... The question is Are there any Non Japanese Hachidan senseis out there... and if so, does anyone know their names? :o

Cheer

[munenmuso]

As far as I know, there are no non-Japanese Hachidan except for a few Korean Hachidan that I read as mentioned in another thread. The test itself is so difficult and overwhelming, even harder than the bar examination. There are even less 7dan non Japanese or westerners, and one of the prerequisite is that you have been a 7dan holder for the last ten years before you apply for the hachidan exam, minimum age I think is 45 or 55. Given this detail, those few 7dan foreigners' probablity of passing is even slimmer if they will join the bandwagon. Since WWII, there were only 400(?) hachidan certificates given by ZKNR and I'm not even sure about if there are really koreans, but there were koreans mentioned in the recent embu for 8dans, isn't it. BTW, passing rate is not more than .05% even lesser, done twice a year in Japan.

[munenmuso]

For other links, visit the top threads/forums. I think there is already a similar thread called 8th dans...Just go to view site stats and at the bottom is the top thread/forums and look for the title 8dan.

hope this helps...:D

[Atama]

I heard from other kendoka that there are a few non japanese hachidan, but I myself have never had the pleasure of meeting them. Someone told that there was a non japanese hachidan in Belgium or France...but I'm just going of speculation, I'd be interested to know if its true though

[Nishi]

Presidnt of the British kendo Association, John Howell, has attempted the hachidan test a couple of times. He may achieve this in the future, but he is the only non-japanese i have met, to even sit the test.
I can not remember the name, but i have been told of a frenchman who is hachidan (renshi).

[Hyaku]

Only four or five in my prefecture. All of them real stand up hachidan. None of them receiving it as an honorary status.

I can hold my own well with other nanadans my age. But fighting with these guys makes one feel like a total beginner.

I used to go to a dojo in Fukuoka where four Hachidans used to turned up. I certainly learned a lot but was not overly impressed. On a national scale a big prefecture does get a better crack at it.

Hyaku

[munenmuso]

BTW Hyaku, do you know if there are any non-Japanese Hachidan in and out of Japan. What are the elements they are looking for during the 8dan test? If there aren't any, what are the probabilities of having them in the future?

:)

munenmuso

[Hyaku]

As the Kendo community grows outside Japan everything will grow with it for sure. You will see a lot of people who are honoured for their services to the Kendo Community but it will be years before you see a stand up Hachidan.

I see some foreigners come over here for grades and try to help out by letting them practice at my dojo. But they have "so" much work to do. A lot of them get through a grade by the skin of their teeth and go home knowing it too. they prehaps come over for their first grade and then go back to hopfully continue intensive practice. I have heard it said that its easier to come to Japan to take a grade rather than at home.

There is also a foreigner doing Kendo element present. There is a possibility that you will get a grade because you are "not" Japanese. I remember taking a grade once as a result of "ten" practices a week. At the same grading there was an American woman who had been teaching English and doing kendo at the police station once a week. A Kendo elephant would be an apt way to describe her. Or maybe that would insult the elephant. Anyway she passed with flying colours

Being the foreign rep over here I was pushed in front of the Kumdo Hachidan when was over. I was not overly impressed. But then again he is getting on in years and was responsible for getting Kendo/Kumdo started with the help of Japanese Sensei

I used to travel about with a friend who felt it was important to get oneself known in Kendo circles. He also invited particular people that were on the Hachidan-shinsa (grading panel) to his dojo. He said the Kendo had to be good but you needed to get yourself known too. The old tsukiai is important over here. Personaly its one of the things that put me off taking any more grades.

So I suppose you could say even failing it a few times will get you known!

Will it be a good thing having these higher grades outside Japan In Judo we have seen a lot of people who now think they know better than the Japanese. Of course the Olympics got the ball rolling too.

I know for a time there was a double grading standard where the waiting period between Kendo grades was different in some countries. Has this been rectified?

Hyaku

[Charlie]

As a student of both kendo and judo I'd like to point out that the international judo community is a mess and the state of American judo a disgrace. There are 3 - count 'em - judo governing bodies in the States, and they don't have the same grading standards from org. to org. or from dojo to dojo. So you have a situation where 4-kyus are tossing around shodans, and that, IMO, waters down the state of the art immeasurably. If such a thing were to ever happen to kendo, I would be infuriated.

That said, I don't see it happening to kendo any time soon. The thing about judo is it meshes with the wrestling styles indigenous to the places it settles in - so in the American example you have judo mixed with American wrestling, etc. In unarmed grappling, the body moves a myriad ways. But there is only one way, basically, to swing a katana, so I have hope that kendo will remain relatively untouched.

However, there's also my fear that every time America gets a hold of something (I can't speak for Europe) it mucks it up. In this case, so far, I have seen that American kendo is very stringent and is taken very seriously - but we are also under the strict guidance of issei or nissei Japanese-Americans. American kendo has to be, in many ways, "more Japanese than the Japanese" if it is to honor its roots.

Sorry, ranting!

[AlexM]

Originally posted by Hyaku
Will it be a good thing having these higher grades outside Japan In Judo we have seen a lot of people who now think they know better than the Japanese. Of course the Olympics got the ball rolling too.

Hyaku

No offense Hyaku but there are now a lot of foreigners who ARE better than some Japanese at judo. I don't know if it's just your sentence structure but that statement came off as really arrogant. As if to say that no one could ever surpass the Japanese at judo, ever, period.

Even if you're only talking about the budo/philosophy side of judo (as opposed to pure competition), why would non-Japanese not be able to understand it and debate about it? I'm not sure that's what you're saying but, if it is, I disagree.

[Charlie]

No doubt, Hyaku will address this point, Alex M., but what he said was not that there weren't foreigners better at judo than the Japanese, he said, "In Judo we have seen a lot of people who now think they know better than the Japanese."

That has nothing to do with skill but says that the rules and practices of judo have been changed by meddling foreigners. This is essentially what has happening since the 1960s and it sucks, IMO. Because of foreign pressure and some vague ideas about making judo more fun for the spectator, rules and practices and orgs. have changed - I think it would have been better to just start a new sport (like Brazilian JuJutsu did) rather than try to change the culture that produced the sport.

Don't get me wrong, I still love judo - in fact, I'm not a judo purist but one open to BJJ, American wrestling, or anything else that will improve my "game" as a grappler. But I say judo, while international, definitely had cultural significance behind many of its practices, and that this is the case with kendo, as well.

[AlexM]

I still object. There are two issues at stake here: The ability of foreigners to understand another culture and the notion that concepts remain static once created.

You're saying the foreigners shouldn't say what they think about judo or other forms of budo because they are just that, foreigners. The implication (this is what is important) is that foreigners can't understand budo (or it's many forms) and therefore should keep out of debating, thinking and proposing things on budo. No doubt most foreigners don't know enough about Japanese culture and are unqualified to lecture anyone, let alone the originators of said culture, on what any form of budo should look like. However, some foreigners do have such knowledge (any culture is complexe but can still be understood). Why should their opinions be less important? Can't they add to the debate about what budo is or should be? (I wonder if Dr. A has any opinions on this?)

This is the equivalent of saying that the Japanese cannot understand democracy or capitalism because it is a "foreign" concept (just an example). Bollocks! Even if I'm a Westerner I accept that the Japanese (or anyone else for that matter) can choose to question and add their own flavour to a concept like democracy or capitalism and then look at the West and say: "You could be doing that better". I can think that they're wrong but they can still question. Ideas and concepts that are put out into the world are likely to be changed by it. You cannot say that you want budo or democracy (for instance) to flourish elsewhere but at the same time maintain some sort of "higher moral authority" about what those concepts mean.

This foreign influence on concepts can be for the better or the worse. But it remains legitimate to question nonetheless (if you actually know what you are talking about of course). It's either that or close oneself off from the world. In the end I object totally to the notion that one cannot understand another culture because one was not born into it or that concepts remain constant in time (even if they should sometimes).

For the record I object to seeing kendo ever becoming an Olympic sport or of making it more exciting for the masses (I love watching plain old kendo matches).

God Lord what a rant.

[Hyaku]

Originally posted by AlexM


No offense Hyaku but there are now a lot of foreigners who ARE better than some Japanese at judo. I don't know if it's just your sentence structure but that statement came off as really arrogant. As if to say that no one could ever surpass the Japanese at judo, ever, period.

Even if you're only talking about the budo/philosophy side of judo (as opposed to pure competition), why would non-Japanese not be able to understand it and debate about it? I'm not sure that's what you're saying but, if it is, I disagree.

Oops.... No I was not really saying who was the best. My experience is in Juijitsu not Judo.

I was thinking about the uniform. Its the fact that perhaps too many changes make it something its not and sometimes its is best to go with the flow and let the Japanese decide. Admittedly they dont like change and basically like to leave things the way they are if they are functioning. This often stumps me working here but that's the way it is.

I think you are going to have to wait some considerable time for that debate. Judo is not so old but it has a tradition that the Japanese would not wish to change too much.

Sorry if I ruffled a few feathers:hurt:

Hyaku

[AlexM]

No offense taken at all, I hope I have not offended you either. I understand what you mean.

Nobody like to see challenges to tradition (from without or within) I just objected to the idea that all gaikokujin have no business even participating in the debates on budo (of course, if they're from McDojos.......).

[munenmuso]

One time I read from Daisetzu Teitaro Suzuki, that it would really take a Japanese to understand the psyche of kendo. Hence, being an art native and deeply imbedded in the Japanese traditions and psyche it is only righful that a fellow from the same stable has the right to declare what is uniquely inherent to them.

But it is always admirable to see other people, like non-Japanese like me who are benefiting so much from the beauty of this art though what seems to be of lacking of the art's psyche in me , I compensate with great enthusiasm, endeavor and respect for the art. Such virtues or charater may give me an edge in kendo in the future. And I think that is also my inherent right to do so. It's still a long way to go.

Please enlighten me on this matter...

[Hyaku]

Re: Second post

Alex you might not like it but thats the way it is. Japan has a hierarchy in lots of things. Particlarly with things relating to military aspects. But here generaly the concept is that a person is in a leaders position as a figurhead. He doesnt immediately take control and start barking out orders.

When you get to know them the Japanese are not so different. I can assure you there are some very outspoken people over here that wish to go their own way. However when we have an idea or a motion here its given to all to stamp their seal of approval on it.

The thread started about Hachidan. If anyone wished to aspire to that level they would be expected to be "one of the boys". Then again if the Japanese thought you would have delusions of grandeur assuming you had reached their highest level and was about to go off and do your own thing? They might not be so happy. We can see that a bit in Korea already. So they are quite rightly not so forthcoming and careful in handing out such ranks.

These ranks are about going with the flow adding you own strengths and capabilities to one big family. It is democracy and their are some other small groups about. But mainly we still have one main organization in the world for Kendo.

As a foreigner heading an old classical sword style I do have a big say. But I hold true to what I have been taught by my teacher and simply try to add my own character to fundamentals. I don't change anything although there are some things I feel that would be better if changed. That's perhaps partly why I got in such a position in the first place. Also I hold Shogo position. We don't have Dan grades but the budo attitude is over the board.

Of course we are free to debate here freely regardless of rank. Thats why we have the forum for all to participate. But if it was the ZNKR you wouldnt even get a chance to speak.

I remember being asked by a Hachidan to help translate for him teaching Iaido at a seminar at Crystal Palace after the Europeans. One particular Brit Nanadan came running up to me when he saw me and thinking I has just pushed my way in said "Do you know who you are talking to?" So I would have assumed that other foreigners knew the way things were run.

As I said it will grow. Lets hope it grows in the right manner.

Hyaku

[AlexM]

Hyaku,

I'm not saying that Japan doesn't have hierarchical aspects to its society or that those in charge are sometimes conservative. I'm saying I don't like. I don't this inherent belief that no one from outside of a culture (Japanese or otherwise) can understand said culture.

As a social-scientist (wow, that does sound good...... and totally unrealistic) I hate the idea that I can't understand any other culture apart from my own because well, my entire education depends on it. And because I think that it is possible to understand foreign cultures.

The governing boards of budo-related institutions can be as conservative as they want. But they should expect people to question things once they get better at it (especially Westerners, we're kinda stupid that way....). Of course, people (no matter what their background) should know to tread lightly in the presence of these more conservative elements (one assumes that knowing the culture means you know how to behave too).

That being said, if you want to call yourself the INTERNATIONAL kendo federation then you can't remain exclusively Japanese.

Anyway, we (I) have taken the thread slightly off course. Sorry.

[Antonin]

Originally posted by Nishi
I can not remember the name, but i have been told of a frenchman who is hachidan (renshi).

there is indeed a hachidan residing in France : Yoshimura sensei, who passed his hachidan recently. But, even though he's lived in Paris for the last 30 years, he is Japanese. However, he's trained mostly in France. So I'm afraid no French hachidan yet...
Antonin

[Charlie]

Alex, you're making some good points. I believe that a foreigner can certainly immerse him or herself in another culture and come to understand that culture. Also, if they become a participant in that culture, certainly they can and should influence it. That's the American way of life, for one thing.

But let me ask you a question. We don't complain too loudly when an international community pressures judo, but what would we say if an international community pressured the Japanese to change the tea ceremony, or the rules of haiku?

To me, they are no different. Also, as far as martial arts are concerned, in America it's been far too easy to pass yourself off as an expert, and that degrades the whole situation. I could buy myself any grade in judo I wanted - I could do it right now. If kendo ever becomes like that, it will be a dark day! Of course, the truth about your ability eventually comes out "on the mat," but go over to e-budo.com's "baffling budo" or "bad budo" sections to see how this runs amok!

BTW, some changes in judo:

-The uniform was changed so that you may now have blue uniforms, supposedly to make this easier on the spectators. By itself, not such a big deal - but a lot of Japanese thought this was some sad shiznit.

-Used to be you had to throw a person on his back for ippon, and that was that. Now, you can throw for ippon but also wazari - half point - and koka - quarter point. Lame, IMO. Who needs a quarter point? The game is about ippon. If you want half points and quarter points, go start a new sport. Can you imagine scoring a "half kote" in kendo?

-I already mentioned there are three orgs in the U.S. that run things, and that they don't have a consistent grading system - not even within those orgs! Also, right now there is an insurance pissing contest happening between them. I won't take sides, but suffice it to say one org. is not accepting the insurance or another org. This has resulted in kids showing up for shiai and being told they can not play unless they pony up $50 or more per person on the spot to join the other org. This is like paying protection money to three different mafias. ;p

[AlexM]

I think the tea ceremony and haiku, for instance, are much less open to interpretation than something like budo (although this conversation is starting to get out my league in terms of knowledge). Haiku for instance is sort of "defined" by the number of syllables and the influence of the seasons (or something like that). Tough to challenge by saying: "Change the number of syllables!". It just wouldn't be haiku. Like challenging the use of a "sword" in kendo..... what's the point?

Budo is sort of open to many more interpretations. What is the definition of ippon? It ain't as simple as ken-ki-tai-chi (or whatever). Apparently years ago a high ranking sensei stated that hiki-waza was not ippon because you're going backwards (not a battlefield technique or something like that). Some people stopped counting hiki-waza until another sensei said that was ridiculous and hiki-waza became acceptable again. I hope this anecdote is accurate, and if it isn't you can imagine it for yourself (how many hiki-waza have you seen that should have been good but were not given?). Too much room for interpretation in budo, even the Japanese cannot decide amongst themselves. If a foreigner is qualified, why not let him or her voice an opinion? They can take it or leave it. But don't come and tell me that their opinion is invalid BECAUSE they're foreigners (especially in something like judo where Japan is no longer the SOLE dominant force... in kendo however not much challenge).

As for McDojo people, I'm assuming that they can be spotted from a mile away (and subsequently ignored, beaten up, spit on, etc.....whatever suits your fancy).

As to the situation of martial arts in North America and competing orgs. and whatnot. BAH! Has nothing to do with a foreigner's ability to understand budo. Having idiots in a society does not mean everyone else should be lowered to their level (that's what television is for). I think this problem of having multiple schools of martial arts is probably similar to what it has always been like (until recently) in Japan. It's up the individual to choose which to accept (tip: don't train with 10th dans, especially overweight white guys who have informercials to sell they're "product"). Look hard enough and you can find the good ones. For instance, plenty of judo schools in Montreal, but only one with a former Olympic medalist present (doesn't mean the others are no good, but still good to know).

(sigh) I feel like doing judo again......

Just to make this post seem on-topic: There is one 8th dan in all of Canada. Morito Tsumura from JCCC in Toronto (hate Toronto!). I think he's 8th dan, kyoshi. He's Japanese born (not nisei, sansei, etc.).

Antonin, qu'est-ce qui est arrivé à ton tricolore?

[mingshi]

This thread has been very informative. Well done. We are back into the debate of international-izing Kendo...

What I would also like to ask is that, even though Kendo has not (yet) became an Olympic sports, it seems like the trend is for it to sports-ify. This time, unlike Judo, the potential threat is not from the West, but rather from South Korea with a Kendo=Sports orientation.

Even now before getting into the Olympics, there are different standards in what a Kendo Ippon should be. You already have what can be identified as "Sports Kendo", where people (okay, mainly kids for the moment) cuts with bad postures, hooking up back legs and such. Uniforms had been changed already - Koreans tends to have their own Hakama style. This doesn't favour many Kendoka who like to stay with the tradition, but is it the same as having options for Do colours, and words running on your sleeves? The Koreans don't go Sonkyo either. Should these be standized?

Yes. Grading varies from country to country. Seems like the easiest one is actually Japan. Maybe the quality of candidates is different, and statistics can't say it all, but the pass rate of lower Dan grads is much lower outside Japan. There shouldn't be a double standard for exams. Then, for some countries (which?), everyone has to get officially graded starting from 6kyu, with a period of 6 months between gradings. Remember, all these are currently under one big IKF, and we are already not having a consistent grading system! (which also include the non-standardized grading fee charges!!!).

Luckily for Kendo 8thDan you can only receive recognition from Japan. Generally having certain grades can still justify the person's experience and ability, although it is not entirely essential to have grades to prove that. Well, unlike Tew ryu... :D

[alexpollijr]

Well

I don't mean to hijack the thread so I'll keep the scope broad on purpose.

About "sports kendo", that is a hard thing to define. You say 'bad posture' and 'hooking up legs'. If you can get the 47th 7th and 8th dan championship tape, you'll see PLENTY of Hachidan Kyoshi hooking legs up just like Max does. And scoring points. Are you going to tell him that he has bad posture and that he's doing 'sports kendo'? He's got 30 years of kendo on his back, he's got an honorific title. So it can be pretty hard to figure out what this is all about. Besides that, almost every book I've got of kendo defines it as a 'highly competitive sport'.

Yes, Koreans have re-done the uniform. Some japanese hate them for that. But they're the only case, and they hold this big grudge against the japanese so as long as it doesn't become fashion, 'tis fair enough. Letters and symbols on the sleeves are a japanese invention. All police dojo have them. Most university clubs do also. I fail to see how it makes kendo 'more of a sport' or anything.

IKF actually *has* a consistent grading system. It's from Ikkyu to Hachidan. Kyu grades below ikkyu are inventions of local federations. They're not supposed to be 'formal' grades. As a last resort, you can pick up a plane to the nearest country who has the standard japanese grading and grade straight over to ikkyu.

But I totally with the last sentence. :D

[Karaken]

FYI.. Korea is full of Hachidans..And they start from 9th Kyu..A long way from the start to Hachidan..

[Charlie]

The thing is, Alex, I think you and I agree, just not in the details. You wrote, "Budo is sort of open to many more interpretations." That's true in that we can all look at an ippon and debate its merits. BUT! At a certain level, it is a product of its country of origin. AND! Debating the merits of an ippon is not the same thing as debating the merits of a method of sword fighting.

My feeling is, do judo and leave judo alone. If you want to expand the rules of a grappling-like game, do so and call it something else (ala Brazilian Jujitsu), don't call it judo. Same with kendo - if you want to cross pollinate with some SCA types, then that's your bag. Don't change kendo, start a new style called - I dunno, "Highlander-do: There Can Be Only One." :D

Sorry for the thread drift - or is it thread drift? The original question was about hachidans outside Japan, and the implication is, how will these individuals impact the art?

We're a lot smarter now, I think, than we were back in the 50s and 60s when we mucked up judo.

[sminki]

Well, let's not say that Korea is "full of hachi dans". It's a small country and names of hachi dan senseis come up a lot. There's maybe 20 of them or so. In terms of grading, they employ the same system as IKF with respect to age restrictions and number of years elapsed since passing the last promotion exam. They do start from 9 kyu and have to test for every kyu in between.

Just out of curiosity, is there anyone in this forum who's faced both 8 dan from Korea and 8 dan from Japan and can give an objective point of view on the experience? (I realize that this would be very circumstantial, but I'm curious nevertheless.)

[Karaken]

I haven't had a chance with Japanese 8 dan but I had a chance with Korean 8 dan (once) and Japanese 7 Dan ( quite a few of them ).
Japanese style is more intimidating because they stand there with no openings I can find whereas Korean senseis have more movements so naturally one can be encouraged to at least to attempt to attack. Korean senseis definitely keep you busier.
With Japanese senseis, sometimes you stand there and sweat without moving a finger for a while.

"Learning Men - again"

[sminki]

May I ask which Korean 8 dan? You can send me a private message if you don't want to give me the name on the forum. Just out of curiosity. I have faced a Korean 7 dan and numerous Japanese 7 dan. All just as impressive (well, maybe except one Japanese 7 dan who SHALL remain anonymous). I have not had the privilige of learning from any 8 dan though.

[Old Warrior]

Karaken - Great Post.

It made me yearn for the time when I might be able to recognize the difference.

I have fenced epee with US Olympians. My own Maestro (a Polish emigree) has a silver medal from the Olympics and I have beaten him. I have crossed swords with many excellent players and have scored my share of touches. Considering the fact that, even 10 years ago I was well beyond my prime and too old to be really good - I have enjoyed getting beaten by true masters of the art.

I am told my Kumdo teacher, Master Jin Kyu Seong 7th dan is a well respected and highly skilled practitioner. While I am not capable of judging his skill, I do appreciate his fluid movement, dynamic power, how he just seems to be able to command his body to do whatever he chooses. When we practice mori countered with hori - he could hit me in the head everytime, even though I know he's coming and his target. If nothing else, I am not wanting for room to improve.

[Neil Gendzwill]

The problem with facing hachidan sensei is that you have no idea at all of just how good they are. They are all master teachers, or at least the handful I have been privileged to practice with are, and they are adept at teaching kendo. By teaching kendo I mean that idea of showing you a level that is just slightly above yours, by providing you with an opportunity to score so that you succeed only if you do your best or learn something. Getting a point on one of these guys means you did something right. It in no way indicates that you could get a point if they were to give you their best competitive kendo.

One interesting thing to do is to observe them practicing with others. Note how your instructor is working just as hard as you to get that one point. The overall level is higher, and the stuff that is being taught is subtler, but fundamentally they are providing you with a reachable target, not a real fight. These hanshi guys do the same thing with mudansha, shodan, sandan, rokudan, it doesn't matter.

[kendo_chick]

There is at least one hachidan sensei here in Canada that I know personally. His name is Tsumura sensei and he is the cheif instructor for the Japanese Canadian Cultural Centre Kendo Club in Toronto, Ontario. Amazing sensei and incredible person.

[Hyaku]

I think Mingshi makes an important point in mentioning the fact that Koreans don't do Sonkyo. Perhaps this more than anything else goes against the grain.
In Japan even outside the realms of Budo everytyhing starts and ends with a bow seated or standing. Sonkyo is considered to be part of this etiquette. The reaction I get from out Kendo Renmei Kaicho who even refuses to turn up,when the Koreans come is "When you see them teach them some etiquette will you?

Sadly this goes against the grain if the ZNKR are going to be more open about awarding higher rank to foreigners. And to them make no mistake Koreans are foreigners too!

ZNKR members take Godan up to prefectural level. After that its nationals. There are very few higher than Hachidan and they are the people that are going to acknowledge that you are as good as them.

sminki: I did say in my post that I fenced with both. The Korean Sensei was Kaicho of the Kumdo Renmei. Frankly I felt that there was no comparison to be made. I wondered at the time why they deliberately pushed me up in front of him. A bit of Ijime on their part.

What can I say...... you can normaly feel that aura from the word go when you fence with some one of that level. A real sense of futility knowing you are only going to hit someone when they allow you to. I am sure you have all experienced this from time to time. You do however know when you are given one and when you "take one".

Mingshi also said: Generally having certain grades can still justify the person's experience and ability.

I would have to agree that it is a generality but sadly I have seen quite a few exceptions here in Japan.

My heart goes out to all of you even if you have not even taken ikkyu yet. Because believe you me I have met some nice and some amazing people in this world that have never even done Kendo. And that some of these higher ranked Kendo people could learn a lot from. Please all of you just do your Kendo and get what you can from it but please dont expect too much when it comes to Ningenka (Humanism)

Hyaku

[sminki]

Hyaku,

I understand what you mean about humanism and agree. You bring up a very good point in that despite what we all hope for, a hachi dan kenshi may not always be a hachi dan human being.

Anyway, regarding this "no sonkyo" thing with Koreans, Koreans also emphasize the notion that "kendo begins with rei and ends with rei". In Koreans' case, this would mean a standing bow at the beginning and at the end of a match. I don't think that Koreans necessarily take kendo etiquette lightly by not doing the sonkyo. In international events, they do sonkyo. They just don't sonkyo when they're in Korea. It's just not a very Korean thing and hence been removed from the kendo that the Koreans practice. Obviously, this brings us to the issue of origin of kendo and the resentful feelings that the Koreans still have toward the Japanese for 36 years of raping and pillaging. I don't really intend to get into these issues, as I feel that it won't resolve anything. However, I would like to point out that the Koreans are not ignoring etiquette by not doing sonkyo among Koreans. It may be a touchy subject to the Japanese, as Koreans are taking the liberty to change things on their own, but as I understand it, Koreans do and will sonkyo "when in Rome".

[Karaken]

Sminki: his name is Ryu and has a dojo somewhere in NJ

Old Warrior: You said "he could hit me in the head everytime, even though I know he's coming and his target. If nothing else, I am not wanting for room to improve"

- When I was in high school, math was hard - didn't understand a thing. But when I was in college tutuoring high school kids, I wondered why same math that was so hard seems so elementary. I'm not that good at Kendo yet but I can see myself thru high school students in my dojo started about a year ago.
Yes, I can see them trying to move before they actually do.


In my mind, the real difference between 5th dan and 7th dan is ( I only had one chance with 8th dan ), as Neil said, you would know when you hit godan and when he lets you. But you'll never know that with 7th dan senseis ( mostly professional ones around me - real good ones ) it's like they have multiple gears as they wish to be. Remember there are 3 years between 3-4, 4 years minimum between 4-5 etc.. The difference between ikkyu and shodan doesn't apply here..

Hyaku: Don't get Mingshi's comment wrong. The fact that Korean's don't do Shonkyo doesn't mean they don't bow to judges or don't have respect to each other. Also, there are two different federations of Kendo in Korea: One that's very similar to Japanese one and the one trying very hard to be different. In any case, I have no doubt they are Kenshi just like us. As long as their pursuit of Kendo is to train your body and mind.
While ago, when a fellow kendo student ask me why Kendo? I answered " To me it's a health club, because I was so bored there I came here. But one can get as much out of kendo as one puts in. It could get very close to a religious experience if one chooses to do it."

Well, I babbled too long. My other rule was - if you can't say in a few words, you should just shut up..

Center - take it and keep it.


__________________

[sminki]

Karaken,

Are you sure you weren't duped? I'm 99.9% sure that there are no Korean 8 dan in the U.S. (unless self-proclaimed and not IKF recognized...)

[Karaken]

sminki, I'm not keen on anyone's name or record as you. So maybe I'm mistaken.

Remember, it's only a health club to me..:-)

[sminki]

haha. health club. sometimes I wish I could take it as lightly.

although when you say 'take the center and keep it', it suggests that you don't fully believe that it's just a health club...

[Karaken]

The best men I hit was when I wasn't thinking about how to hit or how to step or how to be in balance.

Best health club to me is the one I don't have to worry about motivating myself to get there and time myself on a fake bike and push yourself to do 50 more reps.

I'm very excited to get to dojo, the challenges never end (center) while I'm there and after sweating for (2) hours I still hate to leave...

A best damn health club I've ever known Sminki.. Wish I can do it everyday.

Center Center - Do not leave, never... ( Do we have any 8th dan around NY? )

[sminki]

True. The best ones, you don't really think about. You see the opening and go at the SAME time without thinking. And you think about them on the way home patting yourself on the back...

To my knowledge, I don' t know of any 8 dan kenshi in the eastcoast. There's a Matsubara sensei in NJ who I've heard being described as "almost 8 dan" by people (I take it that it means he's a high level 7 dan). Kataoka sensei at NYC has also been a 7 dan for a long time. I'm sure it's been a while since Ebihara sensei of KenZen and Kato sensei from Shidogakuin have been 7 dan as well. Seong sensei in NJ has been a 7 dan for couple of years now, so he has some years to go.

I think all the 8 dan kenshi (if there's more than one) in the U.S. are likely in the west coast.

[Karaken]

I remember all of them - unfortunately I was only a beginner when I met them all. I'd appreciate more now but then they're not coming around to my way anymore..

Oh well - still trying to hit men from the center...

[Inouye02]

ur correct sminki

[sminki]

venice,

do you know how many 8 dan senseis are in the westcoast?

[Inouye02]

i'll get back to you on that

[misterkurukuru]

i think there is only one living hachi dan on the weat coast(that got it from the IKF and is american), cos they wont give it to anybody else unless they die or something. The only one is our buddy Venice kendo! wahahahahaha! you know who!

[Inouye02]

shhhhhhhh !!

[Inouye02]

i saw him friday night , along with Nakauchi Sensei....

[sminki]

is this a secrecy?

[Inouye02]

Miyahara, Maki SCKF 8 dan

Huang, Yung Chun SCKF 8 dan

[misterkurukuru]

did huang sensei get his hachi dan over here???
thats kool huang sensei is old and he can still kick butt

[sminki]

wow. i didn't know that there was a non-japanese descent hachi dan in the U.S.

[Inouye02]

don't know if huang sensei got it here, but yes he kicks butt...

[sminki]

could not have gotten it here. you need 7 to 11 hachi dan or above members who's been hachi dan for a certain number of years to grade the hachi dan exam.

[kawa]

My friend study under him when he was in Taiwan for 14+years and now my friend becomes my personal coach. I guess Sensei Huang is my “Shisho” Sensei Huang got his 8 dan when he is in Taiwan (Test was conducted in Japan however). I met him once in Taiwan 10 years ago and Yes he is indeed impressive.

[Inouye02]

there is another hachidan sensei on the west coast .

akutagawa sensei..

[Yo...osh!]

My friend study under him when he was in Taiwan for 14+years and now my friend becomes my personal coach. I guess Sensei Huang is my “Shisho” Sensei Huang got his 8 dan when he is in Taiwan (Test was conducted in Japan however). I met him once in Taiwan 10 years ago and Yes he is indeed impressive.
So Huang sensei passed the Japanese test? Wouldn't that make him the first non-Japanese to pass the Japanese hachidan test?