"Playing" Kendo

[ChaShu]

Any idea why we "play" kendo instead of "practice" or "do" or some other verb? Is there some sort of Japanese word construct that can only be translated to "play" rather than another word? Just wondering... :redface:

[ben spain]

Every time my girlfriend says that I "play" kendo - I correct her and say I learn Kendo. "Playing" kendo sounds like I am a small child going out into the woods to hit my little friends with sticks.

Although I might have the mental capacity of a 10 year old - she can at least try to humour me!

[Mr. Donigan]

My friend you have just entered the great Practice/Play debate.

[Hisham]

You might "play" kendo and you're free to use that verb but i "practice" or "do" kendo for the same reason Ben mentioned eventhough Mad dog gave me another outlook on the verb to play. lol i guess you should've started this thread in the flame section.

[samurai999]

"Playing" kendo sounds like I am a small child going out into the woods to hit my little friends with sticks.


Well thats how a lot of the people here start out. At around 7 or 8 yrs old. They don't really think of it as practicing. They think of it as playing. Much like we go and play soccer or play basketball. Nothing turns off a younger kid to something more than hearing the words "practice" or "learn".

Tim

[NakazamiShinji]

play kendo !!!! wtf mate? kendo is a way of life to some people...

[nodachi]

I do, stduy, train, or some other more serious verb.

The play kendo thing from Japanese people come from the structure of their English learning through their school system. That is the way they learn to describe this sort of activity. They have been taught this way for years and it hasn't changed in the longest time. At least as far as it has been described to me.

Native English speakers usually have more sense and understand the nuances to words and don't often apply the play kendo phrase, unless they have no clue what it is and think of it as a game. Otherwise, most native English speakers see it as studying a martial art, at least in my experience. The Japanese in general, although some have great language skills, aren't taught in order to communicate and understand the nuances of certain word choices. They are taught English to pass school entrance exams. So they memorize what those tests want to see, whether they realize it sounds funny or not.

[JSchmidt]

I play kendo. Even if it's a bad/hard/hot practice, I usually always have fun doing it. I think 'play' describes what I do perfectly well...and further, none of us here (As far as I know, anyway) do it for a living, which puts further emphasis on 'play'.
People who get upset about the word 'play', take themselves far too seriously, IMNSHO.

Jakob

[Neil Gendzwill]

People who get upset about the word 'play', take themselves far too seriously, IMNSHO.
What he said. "Play" is perfectly fine in my book.

[hyuna]

I think it is just a translation thing.

I do not believe that "play" is demeaning when applied to kendo. At least no more so than when one talks about a rugby or football "player," or the "players" in a military wargame (by which I mean a real military training exercise, not a tabletop game).

I agree it sounds a little funny. We have "boxers," not "boxing players," and "fencers," not "fencing players." I don't think anyone says "tennisers" or "rugby-ers." In America, "footballer" is strange, but not in Europe (although it refers to a different game, but I don't think that matters much for this point). "Golfer" and "golf player" are generally equally acceptable in America. There is no rule for when to say "player," so, I think it is just one of those colloquialisms.

[kuzu70]

I suppose I say "I am going to kendo practice today." I used "play" for example at a tournament, when I see a friend and ask "Are you going to play today?"

[samurai999]

I suppose I say "I am going to kendo practice today." I used "play" for example at a tournament, when I see a friend and ask "Are you going to play today?"

Use what you feel like using. There is no official way to name it. Do, practice, learn, play, whatever. Just have fun.

Tim

[durrell4]

My understanding is suru (Japanese verb to do) can be translated to Play or do, but is translated to play for kendo. Play, do, or practice all basically the same.

My sensei generally frowns on "Play" kendo but I think its a an artifact of the Japanese translation and not worth worrying about in the grand scheme of things.

[Walras]

You play kendo because it is a sport.
A sport is a physical activity of a competitive nature that relies on rules, customs and traditions.

[Pokie]

IMO kendo is so fun, id rather say play than practise..cos really, don't you practise so u can play better ? not play better so you can practise ?

[dohrt]

In my ignorance, "play" doesn't really work for me I guess since I never use that term. I always say "I have Kendo tonight" or "I'm going to Kendo", but I never say "practice" or "play". I guess I never noticed that before.

I don't necessarily want to get into the semantics of whether or not Kendo is a sport vs. martial art, but rather just the game of "english is weird and sometimes there are strange situations that don't always apply"

You play basketball, tennis, baseball, hockey, and many other sports.

But I've never heard of "playing" wrestling. It's always been called wrestling practice, or a wrestling match. I think of all the western "sports", wrestling is the one that feels to me just like Kendo in many ways - two people facing off against each other - technique rather than strength being mainly what determines a winner - balance, speed, reaction, reading where another person is going and countering it - etc, etc.

But why don't we say that we are going to "play" wrestling? Is it because of the "ing" on the end? Maybe if it was basketballing, we wouldn't play basketballing. To me, the "do" on the end of Kendo is like "ing" on the end of wrestling. But perhaps again I show my massive ignorance in thinking that "way" is analagous to "ing" in english, meaning it's a verbalized form of an activity.

Or maybe it's just another case of how odd english can be. The only language where we drive on a parkway, yet park in a driveway (and notice also the "on" and "in" difference there), english will always be just . . . inconsistent.

And yet, there are various meanings to the word "play". Some of them are very subjective.

For example, when I play basketball, it's not serious. I don't care about anything but just screwing around with the guys. To me, it's not anything I work hard at. Not something I have any commitment to. It's just something I "play". Like a game, when it's convenient. For others perhaps, basketball is much more serious, and they would call me crazy for my lack of focus on what might be the devotion of their whole life.

And what about tangent connotations? What about a "player" in terms of the guy who puts on an act to seduce women, draws them into intimate encounters, then leaves them without any real or true emotional vestment? Being a "player" could be called very serious and hard work even, but then again, the connotation is negative, very very negative. But I digress.

Kendo is very serious, at least to me. I try very very hard, work and push myself, and always always always try not to disrespect or take for granted. To me, Kendo is not a game, not something I play around with. It's like a way of living my life, and it has influence on every other part of my life. In this way, "play" sounds very innaccurate, not to mention disrespectful to the etiquette that Kendo is about, at least, given some of the connotations of the term in widespread use in my circle of english speakers.

But then again, I "play" the guitar. This is also very serious. I have spent many years improving myself and learning to make my fingers and hands to be the most unhindered outlet or manifestation possible of the song in my spirit. As cheesy as that may sound, Kendo has many similarities.

In fact, it's fascinating how much rythym, how much form, how much beauty is in Kendo just as if the kenshi doing kendo were . . . playing music. So when I hear someone say they "play kendo" I always find myself thinking idealistically that they mean it in this fashion.

But again, I never use that terminology myself. Perhaps because my kendo is so bad, hahahahaha ! Maybe when I've been doing kendo for about 163 more years, I might start saying I "play kendo" hehehe.

Fascinating topic though.

[Yiu Fai]

So long as I'm associated with Kendo, it doesnt matter for me if I play or study or train.

Having said that, whenever I talk about Kendo in this context I do choose to say that I study Kendo. But dont really care either way

[KendokaJim]

I do understand the twinge you feel when somone says "...play kendo..." but I don't let it bother me. It's funnny though, most kenshi are the ones that I hear say it that way. Everyone else says something like "do kendo."

[mad_god]

I do understand the twinge you feel when somone says "...play kendo..." but I don't let it bother me. It's funnny though, most kenshi are the ones that I hear say it that way. Everyone else says something like "do kendo."

Maybe because it is "fun" hit someone's head?
How people do, and not how they say.
That's what really matters.

MAD GOD

[Nokori 3byo]

IN STANDARD ENGLISH USAGE, "PLAY" SIMPLY ISN`T USED WITH MARTIAL ARTS. THE SAME APPLIES TO ALPINE SPORTS AND A NUMBER OF OTHER ACTIVITIES WITH SPORTS-LIKE ELEMENTS, INCLUDING THE WESTERN VERSIONS OF FENCING AND ARCHERY. I AM FAMILIAR WITH "PLAY KENDO" PRINCIPALLY AS A JAPANESE CORRUPTION OF AN ENGLISH PHRASE. EVEN IF YOU ARGUE THAT KENDO IS GRADUALLY EVOLVING INTO A SPORT, THE PHRASE "PLAY KENDO" WILL REMAIN IDIOMATICALLY INCORRECT. IT`S NOT A PHILOSOPHICAL DEBATE, BUT A SIMPLE QUESTION OF COMMON USAGE, AND WILL REMAIN SO UNTIL A LARGE MAJORITY OF ENGLISH SPEAKERS CHANGE THEIR HABITS.

(sORRY ABOUT THE FULL CAPS. tHIS KEYBOARD IS BUSTED).

[ChaShu]

IN STANDARD ENGLISH USAGE, "PLAY" SIMPLY ISN`T USED WITH MARTIAL ARTS. THE SAME APPLIES TO ALPINE SPORTS AND A NUMBER OF OTHER ACTIVITIES WITH SPORTS-LIKE ELEMENTS, INCLUDING THE WESTERN VERSIONS OF FENCING AND ARCHERY. I AM FAMILIAR WITH "PLAY KENDO" PRINCIPALLY AS A JAPANESE CORRUPTION OF AN ENGLISH PHRASE. EVEN IF YOU ARGUE THAT KENDO IS GRADUALLY EVOLVING INTO A SPORT, THE PHRASE "PLAY KENDO" WILL REMAIN IDIOMATICALLY INCORRECT. IT`S NOT A PHILOSOPHICAL DEBATE, BUT A SIMPLE QUESTION OF COMMON USAGE, AND WILL REMAIN SO UNTIL A LARGE MAJORITY OF ENGLISH SPEAKERS CHANGE THEIR HABITS.

(sORRY ABOUT THE FULL CAPS. tHIS KEYBOARD IS BUSTED).

And I believe that's why I was wondering about the usage of "play" as the common usage as, in English, any sort of combat "sport" or activity has a verb based name, e.g. "to box/boxing", "to fence/fencing", "to wrestle/wrestling", "to duel/dueling". With a foreign language based words/activities such as kendo, capoeira, savate, what you will, we still have to find the common usage construct in the English language. I'm more so confused about the semantic/grammatical aspects rather than the philosophy/mindset of kendo itself. The explaination above of the verb suru will help in understanding. Thanks so far all! :D

[nodachi]

"You play kendo because it is a sport.
A sport is a physical activity of a competitive nature that relies on rules, customs and traditions."

Be careful with statements such as this. It is subject to debate for many people, and I doubt there will ever be any sort of consensus on this. Because many feel that kendo is more than just sport, the verb play just doesn't seem appropriate to them.

Although regardless of philosophical debates here, "play kendo" just sounds funny. Or it's like saying play ski, play karate, play gymnastics... whatever.
It is not something to go nuts about, but it does sound a little odd.

[Fai]

I have to say I definately say I play kendo rather than go to practice.

I have done enough "practice" when I use to do kung fu. I am doing kendo because it makes me happy and its fun. I will have to think very hard about kendo when I have to use the word "practice".

Maybe to the people who says kendo is "life" then I guess I would use the word practice :D

I would not consider playing would mean i treat kendo as a sport.

[Nokori 3byo]

I humbly suggest "study" as the adjunct verb for kendo. While many would take umbrage at this, I find it much more appropriate than "play" and more pleasing to th ear than "practice" (though I think "practice" is just fine, as a translation of "keiko").

I find it odd that the Japanese would use "play" to translate two such antithetical concepts as " suru" (to do a martial art) and "asobu" (to pass time in an agreeable and idle manner). The latter can be used to denote activities like "going into town for fun" or "hanging around with one's friends," but not for playing sports. In contrast, a budou is a way of war, requiring dedication and discipline. Few would argue that concetration, practice, and revision are ne plus ultra to achieving any kind of proficiency in kendo which, for all its potential jockishness, prizes technique over strength to a [b]far greater degree than most fighting arts practiced today. Is "study" too bookish-sounding for an activity like this? I think not.

BUT, as has already been said above, "play Kendo" is not a viable choice regardless of the view you take of the concepts relevant to the debate. Why? Because it's not English. You wouldn't say you "play(ed) swimming" regardless of how seriously or lightly you took that sport. It would simply be incorrect.

[Mokuso]

I guess people that take kendo seriously, 'play' would not the word for you haha

e.g.
person 1: can you come and play with me?
person 2: what do you want to play?
person 1 : I want to play kendo?
person 3: yeah...come play kendo with us?

person 4: what are you guys playing can I join in?

person 1,2,3: sure, lets all play kendo together..weeeeeeee

[JSchmidt]

BUT, as has already been said above, "play Kendo" is not a viable choice regardless of the view you take of the concepts relevant to the debate. Why? Because it's not English. You wouldn't say you "play(ed) swimming" regardless of how seriously or lightly you took that sport. It would simply be incorrect.

Nonsense. You play golf, you play football, you play tennis, which uses the same verbs as kendo (ex: tenisu o suru).

Jakob

[samurai999]

Well kendo is A PART of my life, but it ISN'T my WHOLE LIFE. I'm not dedicating my lifes work to kendo.. I am only dedicating 2 days a week to kendo. I want to have fun when practicing, playing, doing, whatever. Like I've been saying, the main point when doing this is to have fun. Other than that, it would be like my machine shop job that I had in College over the summer. Repetetive and boring.

Tim

[kuzu70]

Tonight I will go to ________ kendo. Later on at night I will _______ with myself.

[Philippe]

I find it odd that the Japanese would use "play" to translate two such antithetical concepts as "[budou wo] suru" (to do a martial art) and "asobu" (to pass time in an agreeable and idle manner). (snip)
It's not really all that odd; rather, it's a matter of context. In many cases, English uses "play" pretty much the same way Japanese use "suru" for sports, games or musical instruments. In different contexts, English uses "play" in ways very similar to the way Japanese uses "asobu". In yet other contexts, neither word would adequately convey the meaning of "play".

In this particular case, the sports application simply got overgeneralised, a very common phenomenon since most people aren't especially linguistically aware and tend to make the false assumption that the other language works just like their own.

[samurai999]

Tonight I will go to ________ kendo. Later on at night I will _______ with myself.

have fun..

Tim

[Hisham]

I humbly suggest "study" as the adjunct verb for kendo. While many would take umbrage at this, I find it much more appropriate than "play" and more pleasing to th ear than "practice" (though I think "practice" is just fine, as a translation of "keiko").


I agree, for example one would say: "I study/studied under x sensei", saying:"i play/played kendo under x sensei" IMHO would be funny to hear :D

[samurai999]

^^^^^^^

Well, whatever floats your boat.

Tim

[Twobitmage]

What he said. "Play" is perfectly fine in my book.

they they said

[Nokori 3byo]

Nonsense. You play golf, you play football, you play tennis, which uses the same verbs as kendo (ex: tenisu o suru).

Jakob

I think you missed my point, chappy. The fact that in Japanese, these words use suru has nothing to do with their corresponding English idioms, and FOR THE THIRD TIME, martial arts are not accompanied by the verb "play" in English. The reason I cited "swimming" was because it's another example of a sport that, owing to the nature of an idiom, does not use "play". Golf, football and tennis do.

That's all.

[Mokuso]

Tonight I will go to ________ kendo. Later on at night I will _______ with myself.

HAHAHAHA nice one!

[Nokori 3byo]

It's not really all that odd; rather, it's a matter of context. In many cases, English uses "play" pretty much the same way Japanese use "suru" for sports, games or musical instruments. In different contexts, English uses "play" in ways very similar to the way Japanese uses "asobu". In yet other contexts, neither word would adequately convey the meaning of "play".

In this particular case, the sports application simply got overgeneralised, a very common phenomenon since most people aren't especially linguistically aware and tend to make the false assumption that the other language works just like their own.

Well said, Philippe. But other posters remain unconvinced. Perhaps if I addopted a more avuncular tone... (Ahem):

Well, m'boy why don't you sit on Pappy's lap and let me tell you about the English language. You see, those of us who speak English...well, we've got these things called "collocations." Certain verbs are used with certain nouns. You can "take a break" or "take a rest" but you can't "do a rest." If you told me you were going to "drink some soup," well...you wouldn't say that would you? It'd just sound stupid. Even though the idea of drinking soup makes sense, we never talk about soup that way. And if you say you're going to "play Karate," you'd better be talking about a video game called "Karate." Otherwise, it's just wrong. Of course, when foreign languages come into the mix, it's get's a little confusing. That's why our French Canadian cousins (God Bless 'em) will sometimes make mistakes when speaking English. They talk about "passing the vacuum" and "listening to the TV" because of confusion relating those expressions in their own language. Likewise, when Japanese talk about traditional arts in English, they sometimes use "play" because they think it's correct English, even though it's not. Then, of course, they passed their mistake onto native speakers. Kinda ironical, isn't it...?

[samurai999]

Well said, Philippe. But other posters remain unconvinced. Perhaps if I addopted a more avuncular tone... (Ahem):

Well, m'boy why don't you sit on Pappy's lap and let me tell you about the English language. You see, those of us who speak English...well, we've got these things called "collocations." Certain verbs are used with certain nouns. You can "take a break" or "take a rest" but you can't "do a rest." If you told me you were going to "drink some soup," well...you wouldn't say that would you? It'd just sound stupid. Even though the idea of drinking soup makes sense, we never talk about soup that way. And if you say you're going to "play Karate," you'd better be talking about a video game called "Karate." Otherwise, it's just wrong. Of course, when foreign languages come into the mix, it's get's a little confusing. That's why our French Canadian cousins (God Bless 'em) will sometimes make mistakes when speaking English. They talk about "passing the vacuum" and "listening to the TV" because of confusion relating those expressions in their own language. Likewise, when Japanese talk about traditional arts in English, they sometimes use "play" because they think it's correct English, even though it's not. Then, of course, they passed their mistake onto native speakers. Kinda ironical, isn't it...?


and we are still debating this, why?? You can call this "kendo no renshu wo shiteru" or "kendo wo suru" "kendo, yorokonde yatteiru", but the point is.. Who cares as long as you do it and have fun with it.

Tim

[JSchmidt]

I think you missed my point, chappy. The fact that in Japanese, these words use suru has nothing to do with their corresponding English idioms, and FOR THE THIRD TIME, martial arts are not accompanied by the verb "play" in English. The reason I cited "swimming" was because it's another example of a sport that, owing to the nature of an idiom, does not use "play". Golf, football and tennis do.

That's all.

So, by using your logic, swimming is a martial art?.

To quote myself:


People who get upset about the word 'play', take themselves far too seriously, IMNSHO.

[Kingofmyrrh]

Kendo hasn't even existed long enough in the consciousness of english speakers for there to be any kind of idiom that has been settled on. The very fact that native english speakers are arguing about it is the best proof you could ask for of this. Anyway, I used to avoid the word play because people told me I should, but then I realized that if I took issue with the word play all my friends would think that I'm a sunday samurai - which would probably have been true - so now I play it up hard!

[kendokamax]

Wonder if anyone mentionned this before.

You know, in french saying 'je joue au kendo"(I play kendo) sounds completly weird but we can use it for sports like hockey, tennis, football etc. So we say 'Je fais du kendo' (I do kendo).

English is my second language but I think 'I play kendo' doesn't seems to sound as bad as 'Je joue au kendo'.

[Hisham]

Wonder if anyone mentionned this before.

You know, in french saying 'je joue au kendo"(I play kendo) sounds completly weird but we can use it for sports like hockey, tennis, football etc. So we say 'Je fais du kendo' (I do kendo).

English is my second language but I think 'I play kendo' doesn't seems to sound as bad as 'Je joue au kendo'.

"jouer du kendo" hehe saying it would make you an alien.

[Nokori 3byo]

So, by using your logic, swimming is a martial art?

No. Unless you're talking about suijutsu, swimming is not a martial art and I never said it was. I was merely citing an example of a sport whose collocation does not use the verb "play." Other examples include: wrestling, fencing, boxing, archery, skiing, snowboarding, skateboarding...etc. etc. But this has already been discussed.

And, incidentally, I'm not taking myself too seriously. It's strictly an issue of proper English usage. I take it you're not a native speaker...

[Nokori 3byo]

It's strictly an issue of proper English usage. I take it you're not a native speaker...

Sorry, I have to take this last comment back. It was waspish in the extreme.

I stand by the overall argument, though.

[Nokori 3byo]

Kendo hasn't even existed long enough in the consciousness of english speakers for there to be any kind of idiom that has been settled on. The very fact that native english speakers are arguing about it is the best proof you could ask for of this.

I disagree. Just because a particular word is new to a language doesn't mean that it does not conform to general guidelines of common use. Can you think of a martial art that uses the verb "play"? Would you say you played shorinji kempo or kung fu?

I don't know why this is the case. Certainly, there are some sports, like wrestling and skiing that have existing verbs built into the name of the sport: eg. "Wrestling--to wrestle", "Skiing--to ski" "Swimming--to swim", "Fencing--to fence", etc. But then, how do you explain archery? You don't "arch"; nor do you "play archery." It's just the nature of the idiom.

Why exactly, the word "play" sounds so awkward when applied to fighting arts like karate and tae kwon do I can only speculate. And is it somehow more incorrect to use "play" with less competitive arts like aikido and iaido? Few would disagree that the term "play iaido" simply sounds idiotic, and yet iaidoka do compete in shiai against other practitioners performing the same kata. I've seen naginataka doing the same thing at taikai that also involve free sparring. Does that mean that, at the moment a naginataka stops sparring and starts preparing for a kata competition, s/he undergoes a spontaneous ontological transformation from "player" to "practitioner"? Obviously not. One term is inclusive; the other isn't.

The current debate about kendo's gradual transformation into a sport (a la judo) may have little or no bearing on the issue. It is worth noting that, in the context of olympic competition, judoka are sometimes referred to by their name and the suffix senshu (athelete). But this does not lend any support to the translation of ka as player, since ka and senshu are essentially unrelated and the latter is applied to judo practitioners only in the context of olympic competition

There was, of course, a time when traditionalists were scandalized by the mere mention of judo becoming an international sport. Now that it's a done deal, the words "play" and "player" still sound awkward and unnatural when applied to judo or any other martial art, Asian or otherwise.

Lastly, the fact that there is an ongoing debate about this issue does not prove that one side is not clearly right, but simply that the other side is stubborn to a baffling extent.

[kendokamax]

oomachi!

you train with kimura sensei etc? they came to montreal last week with chiba sensei (the crazy jodan ossan) very nice people

chiba : bureimono !
max : AH! moushiwakearimasen!

[Mokuso]

the words "play" and "player" still sound awkward and unnatural when applied to judo or any other martial art, Asian or otherwise.


It does sound weird, they would probably use the word 'compete' since it has become a sport. I think.

[JSchmidt]

Lastly, the fact that there is an ongoing debate about this issue does not prove that one side is not clearly right, but simply that the other side is stubborn to a baffling extent.

Yeah, I noticed...

You can call it whatever you like, but don't come here and insist that I can't say 'play'.

[Kingofmyrrh]

Would you say you played shorinji kempo or kung fu?
Who cares about shorinji kempo? Punching boys can go and do what they like. Iai and naginata - not my problem either. The fact is that the first people to describe kendo in english were Japanese who used the word 'play'. Their students copied them and we copied them. Whether or not it's correct or not is a moot point; as long as the people who play kendo say that they play it, that's the verb that's going to be in use. Not everything develops according to the rules - you provide an example with archery.
Frankly, this argument is completely pointless - as long as we keep saying play it doesn't really matter what a bunch of beginners have to say on the matter.

[hyuna]

EVEN IF YOU ARGUE THAT KENDO IS GRADUALLY EVOLVING INTO A SPORT, THE PHRASE "PLAY KENDO" WILL REMAIN IDIOMATICALLY INCORRECT. IT`S NOT A PHILOSOPHICAL DEBATE, BUT A SIMPLE QUESTION OF COMMON USAGE, AND WILL REMAIN SO UNTIL A LARGE MAJORITY OF ENGLISH SPEAKERS CHANGE THEIR HABITS.
You are engaging in a philosophical debate, but it happens to be linguistic and not related to kendo.

My own background in linguistics is descriptive, not prescriptive, so I do not believe that there is any such thing as an "incorrect idiom," nor do I agree with the argument that talking about kendo must necessarily use the same phrasing as other "martial arts" or that there is any substance to "common use" when it comes to language change. The argument is, to me, totally baffling.

For myself, I am apt to say "play" when speaking with native Japanese speaking people (or in Japanese heavy environments) and "study," "practice," or "compete" with native English speakers (or in English heavy environments). But, I have no feeling whatsoever that "play" is wrong. The reason I use the different terms is that "play" is idiomatic. I switch terms in different situations for precisely the same reason that I am apt to say "soda" where I live now, but "pop" if I visit the midwest, or "coke" in the south ( http://www.popvssoda.com/ if you are interested in that sort of thing).

I believe that I am very stubborn on this topic (specifically, descriptive vs prescriptive language), and I will say upfront that I can not conceive of any way you could convince me that the entirely comprehensible usage of a phrase like "play kendo" in a natural language (such as English) is "wrong," regardless of any aesthetic displeasure someone might get from the phrase. I feel the same way about ending sentences with prepositions and splitting infinitives. I am happy to accept that "play kendo" is wrong when speaking with you, as an individual, but, I do not accept that that fact has anything to do with some overall objective correctness of the phrase.

[Nanbanjin]

I've noticed a 60% increase in my kendo ability since I adopted the verb "fellate" when verballising the act of performing kendo. Sure, people used to look at me strangely for a while, but now nobody bats an eyelid. In fact, to save time I've recently dropped the word "kendo" altogether in favour of the word "fellatio". For newcummers (no pun intended) fellatio is usually used in conjunction with the verb "have" or "perform". Now when people ask where those bruises come from I explain "oh, never mind that, I've just been having fellatio".

If you think this is over the top, well, isn't having the same argument for the seventeen thousand millionth time a little over the top too!? Really, it's embarrassing. Stop reading now and do something useful with your lives for chrissakes!!!!!

[kuzu70]

I "play" fellatio, 4 to 5 times a week.

[Nokori 3byo]

as long as we keep saying play it doesn't really matter what a bunch of beginners have to say on the matter.

Oh sure, play that card (sigh).

Well, it should be obvious by now that anyone can say what he or she likes. There are no thought police to bust you for saying something awkward...at least not where I come from.

I do, however, have over 1000 young and impressionable Japanese kids in my charge. I can at least put them straight on this matter...maybe.

[Nokori 3byo]

I am happy to accept that "play kendo" is wrong when speaking with you, as an individual, but, I do not accept that that fact has anything to do with some overall objective correctness of the phrase.

Does contemporary linguistic theory even acknowledge concepts like "objective correctness" and "common sense"? I was under the impression that linguistic and philosophical trends in the latter half of the 20th century had called a virtual halt to speaking as if for a common humanity.

That being the case, we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Kingofmyrrh]

Oh sure, play that card (sigh).
Why not? The fact is that outside of the classroom it's the most relevant card there is. For example, there are a number of common uses of certain Japanese words that strictly speaking are ungrammatical. However, when I try to ask people why they do it they just laugh at me, as they should. As you seem to agree with, the rules of usage are determined by what the majority of people actually use, and it doesn't matter in the slightest if an objector (in this case me) can show that the majority are theoretically wrong. It's like trying to push the tide back out with your hands.

[Nokori 3byo]

For example, there are a number of common uses of certain Japanese words that strictly speaking are ungrammatical.

Like what?

Aw forget it! We were so close to finishing this thread on a neutral (if not amicable) note. Propose that we resolve this by conducting an extensive survey of English speakers worldwide over the next 200 years. Or, if you prefer a more traditionally Japanese method, we could just janken for it.

[nodachi]

My favorite funny saying that I hear all the time from Japanese in doing kendo when you just arrive at the dojo and they want people to hurry up and get dressed...

"change wear"

It gets the point across, yet the word choice is just interesting.

[Jerott-Clark]

Isn't "play" a word for doing children stuff? And hitting each other with a stick is childs play? Well I don't know, but I've never seen a parent allow their child to get beat to sh** with a bamboo stick!

[kendokamax]

Isn't "play" a word for doing children stuff? And hitting each other with a stick is childs play?

ya its not so different than playing cowboy with water gun

ME: 'your dead!!!'
FRIEND : 'nooooo i'm not, you lacked zanshin !!'

[kuzu70]

I was at a tournament last weekend and I asked my friend "Are you playing today?" He looked mildly irritated and said, "We don't PLAY kendo..."

[kendokamax]

I was at a tournament last weekend and I asked my friend "Are you playing today?" He looked mildly irritated and said, "We don't PLAY kendo..."

thats kiai!!!

[Mokuso]

I was at a tournament last weekend and I asked my friend "Are you playing today?" He looked mildly irritated and said, "We don't PLAY kendo..."

Thats an example of getting snapped for it lol