Strength vs. Fluidity

[sminki]

Those of you familiar with different types of martial arts will understand when I say that there are "hard" martial arts (typically referred to as martial arts focused on the "outer chi" by the Chinese) and "soft" martial arts ("inner chi"). A nice example would be karate which is very focused and powerful vs. certain styles of kung-fu, most notably tai-chi, which are fluid and graceful.

There are obviously kenshi (typically younger ones) who approach it from a very "hard" or "outer" perspective and those (typically older senseis) who are softer and more fluid. Video clippings of the late Mochida sensei, 10 dan, in the late years of his life would be a very good example of fluid, "soft" kendo. BTW there's nothing which suggests that "soft" is not powerful. "Soft" kendo can be just as, if not more, powerful as the "hard" kendo.

Although many people think of this as changing of one's kendo style as you get older, I don't think that it's a pure matter of one's age. What do you think? And which style of kendo do you prefer?

[alexpollijr]

I try to achieve the 'softer' feeling. But it's not that easy.
I think you have to learn the hard way first :confused:

[Old Warrior]

My perspective is that of a beginner to Kumdo. A great deal of effort is spent by our teacher on the need for forceful kiai, powerful cuts with strong imposing posture. There is nothing soft about what we are learning - although I am constantly being corrected for doing cuts "too hard". I am working on developing the correct focus so speed is not diminished (it ain't easy).

Since I am an older guy (54) and my joints could benefit from a softer and gentler approach I would appreciate being able to develop a "soft style". I have a sneaking suspicion that all those skilled artists who show that soft fluidity, can hit like a Mack Truck if they so choose. I'll bet what you see is what they want you to see.

[kendo_chick]

I agree with Alexpollijr. I think that first you learn the "hard" way then as you progress through to a more enlightened form of kendo, the "soft" way starts to show itself.

However if you look at it logically, Kendo is the "hard" part of a martial art and Iaido would be the "soft" part of the same art. That is my view.

[kendokamax]

I like powerfull fast kendo!

fast direct and simple!!

Was watching a police kendo team taikai the other day on a tape..I was so amazed by terachi!

[sminki]

Old Warrior,

You're right on the Mack Truck thing. Seong sensei, if you look at him closely, moves very fluidly and freely but cuts with a lot of power and authority. I like his style a lot.

[Kingu]

For what I know from aikido, soft doesn't mean not powerful, on the contrary...

I also agree about training on hard work before soft work. It's probably the logical evolution of the thing.

[kendokamax]

from what i have experienced aikido and kendo are very different.

All movements in aikido were circular. And balance was a very important thing.

In kendo it's mostly straight


but i dont really have any experience in martial arts. I did like 4 months of aikido ...

[Paburo]

Originally posted by sminki
Although many people think of this as changing of one's kendo style as you get older, I don't think that it's a pure matter of one's age. What do you think? And which style of kendo do you prefer? i apologize in advance for i posted this information before somewhere but i shall do it again since it has to do a lot with this particular thread.

less than one month ago Kurasawa-sensei 9th Dan Hanshi taught us:
four principles in kendo uchi-waza(regarding 'strenght and fluidity')

dai=big
kyou=strong
soku=fast
kei=(lit. light)agile, soft, fluid, armonious.

he said at first, kenshi should strive to achieve first two(more basic). then with time and training learn last two(more advanced).

the first hachidan(Yoda-sensei) i had the honor to exclusively train with surprised me in this aspect. his kendo was big and very strong. his men uchi would produce a super whack sound but cause no pain. how is this possible, i thought. 'stop cut at the right time you must' he said.

there are many, many examples. for instance, kurasawa sensei also said that cuts and kamae should be strong enough to be able to keep the center always(as in kiriotoshi waza), but soft enough to be able to react fast and maintain movility(as for doing kaeshi waza for instance).

dai-kyou-soku-kei. sounds easy, but when to be strong and when to be soft? i wish i'd know for sure.

IMHO i think kendo should be both strong and soft, straight and circular.

[sminki]

Nice one Paburo. Dai Kyou Soku Kei rings quite true to heart.

[sminki]

Originally posted by Paburo
'stop cut at the right time you must' he said.

BTW, not only is this Kurasawa sensei jyuu dan, hanshi, he also speaks like Yoda!

[Kingu]

Originally posted by kendokamax
from what i have experienced aikido and kendo are very different.

All movements in aikido were circular. And balance was a very important thing.

In kendo it's mostly straight


All aikido movements are not circular, some also are straight but without putting muscular strength in them. You just have to act at the right time for your moves to be effective; I guess it is the same in Kendo.

[Paburo]

no no sminky, Yoda speaks like Yoda.

Kurasawa speaks like myoga-jiji from IY.

they are two different sensei:

http://kenwakai.org/paburo/sensei.htm

[sminki]

This is amazing! An actual kenshi named Yoda??? Wow~.

Anyway, I thought all the 9 dan senseis last year (or 2 years ago) returned their 9 dan status and made 8 dan the highest rank attainable. Is this not true? (Or is it just that no more 9 dan will be given out to anyone, but people who are already 9 dan remain 9 dan?)

[Sinta]

I guess I prefer the fluid kendo better. Besides doing kendo twice a week, I participate in a Tai Chi class at least once a week and I've learned a lot about its concept and philosophy. Water being the strongest element. It will always overcome through its soft force. When I began kendo, I took the hard perspective (before I got into my tai chi class). I forced the hits, struck hard.

I guess Tai Chi has influenced me strongly. So strongly that I find my movements to be more fluid. I look for strokes that flow like water, and doesn't bring so much tension to my shoulders as forceful strokes. I use the concept of generating chi all over my body, and find myself having more strength and stamina. With fluid hits, they are more precise.

Water's soft touch will wash away the hard rock.

[ken to kokoro]

I agree with paburo. There should always be a balance between the strength and fluidity.

[Hyaku]

Originally posted by Old Warrior


Since I am an older guy (54) and my joints could benefit from a softer and gentler approach I would appreciate being able to develop a "soft style". I have a sneaking suspicion that all those skilled artists who show that soft fluidity, can hit like a Mack Truck if they so choose. I'll bet what you see is what they want you to see.

Hello there. Being just a fraction older I appreciate your problems. There is a time to remain firm and strong until an opportunity presents itself, and as you say we can "Lay it on" if we want to but rarely do unless out opponent is a bit heavy handed.

The main thing I tried to work on daily was to really use the shinai as an extension of the body. I look at it like this; If someone gave you an umbrella and you lifted it as it started to rain just how much effort does it involve? Likewise if dropped it would fall with a relatively strong impact with no one even holding it.

I think if you try and use a shinai bearing this in mind you will be able to concentrate the necessary final force with tenouchi at the end.

Sounds easy but.........

Hyaku

[rottunpunk]

id certainly prefer a softer opponent-esp when im in club bogu thats got really soft kote-owch

but i agree there needs to be a definate balance of the two

:p