Am I right with this sword?

[Saine]

Hello,

Yesterday I found this sword while surfing arround a little bit.

http://www.schwert-shop.de/Smartstore/pd-1521976626.htm?categoryId=87

I asked myself in which time this sword was used. I think it was used in the time when the samurais are no longer allowed to carry a sword arround. Maybe used as a hiddn Sword.

Can you tell me more about this? Are my thoughts correct?

[NakazamiShinji]

hmmm... too bad I cant read german...

[ShinKenshi]

I believe you're correct. After the Meiji restoration, the custom of carrying a sword in public was outlawed and, to sidestep the law, many opted for tsuka and saya that looked very simple and could easily be mistaken for a waking cane. That way they could still defend themselves with a katana when attacked. Kaoru might have some more knowledge about this though.

[Tiki-kun]

Actually, it is my understanding that the non-decorative shirasaya is used for storing/transporting sword blades. This type of mounting is not meant for wearing/fighting - in fact, it would be dangerous to do so without a tsuba and a properly wrapped handle. Please feel free to correct me if worng!

[Hank]

Actually, it is my understanding that the non-decorative shirasaya is used for storing/transporting sword blades. This type of mounting is not meant for wearing/fighting - in fact, it would be dangerous to do so without a tsuba and a properly wrapped handle. Please feel free to correct me if worng!Looks like a shirasaya to me in fact that is the page's title - just used to store and transport blades as you said. It's not a hidden sword - nothing special.

Hank.

[Kingofmyrrh]

Actually, it is my understanding that the non-decorative shirasaya is used for storing/transporting sword blades. This type of mounting is not meant for wearing/fighting - in fact, it would be dangerous to do so without a tsuba and a properly wrapped handle. Please feel free to correct me if worng!
We have a winner!

[nikolaj]

now I don't know alot about swords, but isit strange that this one does not have a bloodgroove?

[HokiIaidoka]

Yes, that is Shirasaya mounting. Shirasaya is merely a protective mounting for transporting the blade. (Often from the smith to the polisher, then the polisher to the mounter). It is NOT suitable for fighting, iaido, or kata. The sword that was hidden in a cane is refered to as Zaitochi (Sp?). Those were used post-1867 (Meiji Restoration Sword Ban), but most the time they were of inferior quality. The blade that you are specfically looking at is a Paul Chen blade mounted in Shirasaya. It is the Shinto base blade (http://www.casiberia.com/cas/product_details.asp?id=SH1001). You are very correct Tiki-kun (I just thought I would expand the explanation). Nikolaj, that is properly referred to as a Bohi (or Bo-Hi). The bohi (fuller on a european sword) is not used to release suction from the body, as often assumed (hence the incorrect name "blood grove") but because removing metal from the middle of the blade was an easy way to make the sword weigh less, but not compromise the edge. Japanese swords without bohi are very common and they are often stronger, but not as fast. Hence, most Iaidoka use a blade with bohi, since speed is the ultimate goal. Also, most Iaito have a bohi because it makes a nice swoosh sound when the hit is correct. But, I believe if we were to go back to days of the true samurai, we would see fewer blades with bohi. I hope this helped you all.

Sincerely,

[Tiki-kun]

Your comments about the bohi make sense. I saw SO many old swords in countless museums while living in Japan, and very few had a groove in the blade. Glad my iaito has one, though. Swish swish!

[crabbi]

Yes, that is Shirasaya mounting. Shirasaya is merely a protective mounting for transporting the blade. (Often from the smith to the polisher, then the polisher to the mounter). It is NOT suitable for fighting, iaido, or kata. The sword that was hidden in a cane is refered to as Zaitochi (Sp?). Those were used post-1867 (Meiji Restoration Sword Ban), but most the time they were of inferior quality. The blade that you are specfically looking at is a Paul Chen blade mounted in Shirasaya. It is the Shinto base blade (http://www.casiberia.com/cas/product_details.asp?id=SH1001). You are very correct Tiki-kun (I just thought I would expand the explanation). Nikolaj, that is properly referred to as a Bohi (or Bo-Hi). The bohi (fuller on a european sword) is not used to release suction from the body, as often assumed (hence the incorrect name "blood grove") but because removing metal from the middle of the blade was an easy way to make the sword weigh less, but not compromise the edge. Japanese swords without bohi are very common and they are often stronger, but not as fast. Hence, most Iaidoka use a blade with bohi, since speed is the ultimate goal. Also, most Iaito have a bohi because it makes a nice swoosh sound when the hit is correct. But, I believe if we were to go back to days of the true samurai, we would see fewer blades with bohi. I hope this helped you all.

Sincerely,
Hi HokiIaidoka-San... that was an incredibly informative and interesting post... thanks.

I knew that the Shirasaya was used for transportation etc... but it was good to have such a full explanation.

Now, back to our friend Saine...

You really have to forget this idea of carrying a sword around in the streets. You may have got away with it as a Samurai in feudal Japan, but you really will wind up in a lot of trouble if you're found with one of these in the streets of Germany!!!

Please forget this and your three-part bokken idea... This will only cause you trouble... Do not buy this sword, train in Kendo and take up Self-defence as well...

[Saine]

Now, back to our friend Saine...

You really have to forget this idea of carrying a sword around in the streets. You may have got away with it as a Samurai in feudal Japan, but you really will wind up in a lot of trouble if you're found with one of these in the streets of Germany!!!

Please forget this and your three-part bokken idea... This will only cause you trouble... Do not buy this sword, train in Kendo and take up Self-defence as well...

Do you really think I will carry around a REAL Sword?^^
I wouldnt even carry arround wodden swords in the streets, the Bokken-thing was just an idea I wanted to create more for fun than use. I wouldnt carry this arround, I just know how strict the policy in Germany is in self defense things.

A friend of mine once got a attacked in the streets by some drunken teenager. The teenager attacked him and he hit in his face and ran away. Later my FRIEND had to pay because the nose of the teenager was broken and the policy said that this wasnt self defense anymore...

Well, anyway I am gonna buy this sword and carry it arround in the streets. If someone comes close to me he is gonna feel my blade... I will the tell the policy that he came to close to me. "It was only self Defense officer! I thought it was a tanto he was drawing, not a pencil!"

No, no I am NOT gonna buy this... and I am not gonna wear any other sword arround in the streets, please dont think anything weong about me :wink:

[crabbi]

Do you really think I will carry around a REAL Sword?^^
I wouldnt even carry arround wodden swords in the streets, the Bokken-thing was just an idea I wanted to create more for fun than use. I wouldnt carry this arround, I just know how strict the policy in Germany is in self defense things.

A friend of mine once got a attacked in the streets by some drunken teenager. The teenager attacked him and he hit in his face and ran away. Later my FRIEND had to pay because the nose of the teenager was broken and the policy said that this wasnt self defense anymore...

Well, anyway I am gonna buy this sword and carry it arround in the streets. If someone comes close to me he is gonna feel my blade... I will the tell the policy that he came to close to me. "It was only self Defense officer! I thought it was a tanto he was drawing, not a pencil!"

No, no I am NOT gonna buy this... and I am not gonna wear any other sword arround in the streets, please dont think anything weong about me :wink:
Thanks Saine-San (Vielen Dank!!!)...

I will now be able to sleep at night, kowing that the streets of Germany are safe from roaming bands of teenege Ronin with Shirasaya and three part bokken tucked in their hakama...!

Seriously though, I apologise for mis-judging your intentions...

Cheers

[nikolaj]

Nikolaj, that is properly referred to as a Bohi (or Bo-Hi). The bohi (fuller on a european sword) is not used to release suction from the body, as often assumed (hence the incorrect name "blood grove") but because removing metal from the middle of the blade was an easy way to make the sword weigh less, but not compromise the edge. Japanese swords without bohi are very common and they are often stronger, but not as fast. Hence, most Iaidoka use a blade with bohi, since speed is the ultimate goal. Also, most Iaito have a bohi because it makes a nice swoosh sound when the hit is correct. But, I believe if we were to go back to days of the true samurai, we would see fewer blades with bohi. I hope this helped you all.

Sincerely,

yeah sorry for using the wrong term, but as I said, I know nothing of japanese swords really.All I knew was that I had seen a lot of iaitos WITH bohi and a great many more el-cheapo "real samurai swords" without one...
so in short: thanks for the explanation

[Saine]

Thanks Saine-San (Vielen Dank!!!)...

I will now be able to sleep at night, kowing that the streets of Germany are safe from roaming bands of teenege Ronin with Shirasaya and three part bokken tucked in their hakama...!

Seriously though, I apologise for mis-judging your intentions...

Cheers


The idea is not to bad...I maybe start a Ronin Gang with Shirasayas tonight and go attack the goverment. We gonna rule the world! Muhahaha

Just kidding

Apologise accepted :wink:

[HokiIaidoka]

Hey Guys,

I was glad to help out, There are so many intelligent people on this forum I was surprised to find a thread where I was the first one to know the answer to the question (thus giving me the credit :D).

Nikolaj-don't sweat it, everyone uses the wrong term, but now you can be one of the few who don't :)

Sincerely,

PS. for more information on all these things, check out Sword Forum International (www.swordforum.com (http://www.swordforum.com))

[Kumdo-Star]

i heard a bout that act thats when the gov. went into control right?

[Genji]

Yes, that is Shirasaya mounting. Shirasaya is merely a protective mounting for transporting the blade. (Often from the smith to the polisher, then the polisher to the mounter). It is NOT suitable for fighting, iaido, or kata. The sword that was hidden in a cane is refered to as Zaitochi (Sp?). Those were used post-1867 (Meiji Restoration Sword Ban), but most the time they were of inferior quality. The blade that you are specfically looking at is a Paul Chen blade mounted in Shirasaya. It is the Shinto base blade (http://www.casiberia.com/cas/product_details.asp?id=SH1001) (http://www.casiberia.com/cas/product_details.asp?id=SH1001%29). You are very correct Tiki-kun (I just thought I would expand the explanation). Nikolaj, that is properly referred to as a Bohi (or Bo-Hi). The bohi (fuller on a european sword) is not used to release suction from the body, as often assumed (hence the incorrect name "blood grove") but because removing metal from the middle of the blade was an easy way to make the sword weigh less, but not compromise the edge. Japanese swords without bohi are very common and they are often stronger, but not as fast. Hence, most Iaidoka use a blade with bohi, since speed is the ultimate goal. Also, most Iaito have a bohi because it makes a nice swoosh sound when the hit is correct. But, I believe if we were to go back to days of the true samurai, we would see fewer blades with bohi. I hope this helped you all.

Sincerely,




just to put it out there Zatoichi isnt the term Zatoichi is a movie character who uses a sword cane. i dont remember the name of a sword cane ( really bad memory)

mogarth-

[splice]

As pointed out, Zatoichi isn't a sword cane, it's a movie character that uses a sword cane. The correct term for a sword cane would be shikomi-zue.

As far as bo-hi, I've heard of people saying it's for lightening the sword without compromising strength too much. But I've never, ever heard of anyone claiming that sword with bo-hi are faster than those without, and I've never heard of anyone claiming that's why we iaidoka tend to use sword with bo-hi. I would doubt the effect of taking off that amount of weight would be very significant. You would have to point me to a well-reasoned study of the effects of bo-hi (I've read some in the past, I just can't find them right now) that proves it, otherwise I think it's just hearsay.

[2SwordStyle]

Intresting liner note:


Bohi got named bloodgroove the world over mainly because blood tends to run down the grove when you run someone through.

Experimentation: Take a Katana with a Bohi and stab a juicy watermellon. Watch where juices run and imagine it's thick blood. You can easily see how it got that name.

[John Seavitt]

it's for lightening the sword without compromising strength too much. But I've never ...

Nothing magical - given two swords of equivalent dimensions, one would expect the lighter of the two to be 'faster', all other things being equal. A=f/m and all that: a lighter sword accures more acceleration from the same amount of force. That's one of the points of bo-hi, besides not tiring out as quickly from those one thousand cuts and all that. Still, it's worthwhile to remember that this is going to be a very small difference in terms of weight for any given sword. That nice flimsy shinai is always going to be a lot faster ...

John "of course, all things aren't ever equal, neh?"

[Genji]

As pointed out, Zatoichi isn't a sword cane, it's a movie character that uses a sword cane. The correct term for a sword cane would be shikomi-zue.

As far as bo-hi, I've heard of people saying it's for lightening the sword without compromising strength too much. But I've never, ever heard of anyone claiming that sword with bo-hi are faster than those without, and I've never heard of anyone claiming that's why we iaidoka tend to use sword with bo-hi. I would doubt the effect of taking off that amount of weight would be very significant. You would have to point me to a well-reasoned study of the effects of bo-hi (I've read some in the past, I just can't find them right now) that proves it, otherwise I think it's just hearsay.



the bohi makes the sword "lighter/laterally reinforced & less likely to bend" as for the bloodgroove thing it is true that liquid will travle into this. but jsut to throw it out there any ledgends about suction and making it easier to pull from a body is not true at all.

[splice]

Nothing magical - given two swords of equivalent dimensions, one would expect the lighter of the two to be 'faster', all other things being equal. A=f/m and all that: a lighter sword accures more acceleration from the same amount of force. That's one of the points of bo-hi, besides not tiring out as quickly from those one thousand cuts and all that. Still, it's worthwhile to remember that this is going to be a very small difference in terms of weight for any given sword. That nice flimsy shinai is always going to be a lot faster ...



I would posit that the minimal speed difference incurred by that small weight difference will be counteracted by the slightly larger surface area added by the bohi and the different aerodynamics of that configuration. Air will not simply flow by but be drawn in to the bo-hi and then out, therefore slightly increasing air friction and slowing down the sword. The "whoosh" doesn't come from nowhere, right?

And this is just basically us talking out of our arses :smoker:. Short of an actual scientifical study of the effects of bo-hi (which I had found a while back and lost), I don't think it's quite clear cut either way.

But I sure never heard of iaidoka picking bo-hi for speed... I mean, what next, spoilers and flames down the saya? :rolleyes:

[Hank]

I would posit that the minimal speed difference incurred by that small weight difference will be counteracted by the slightly larger surface area added by the bohi and the different aerodynamics of that configuration. Air will not simply flow by but be drawn in to the bo-hi and then out, therefore slightly increasing air friction and slowing down the sword. The "whoosh" doesn't come from nowhere, right?

And this is just basically us talking out of our arses :smoker:. Short of an actual scientifical study of the effects of bo-hi (which I had found a while back and lost), I don't think it's quite clear cut either way.

But I sure never heard of iaidoka picking bo-hi for speed... I mean, what next, spoilers and flames down the saya? :rolleyes:I've never heard of an iaidoka picking a bo-hi for speed either. It's just for the noise nowadays.

But, I wouldn't call the speed gained by weight loss minimal. It's inversely proportional to weight, as the above post says, so if a sword is 10% lighter than another sword (a bo-hi accounts for a lot of material), then it will accelerate 10% faster than the heavier one for the same muscle effort. No big deal these days, but a matter of life and death in previous ones.

Also, if the bo-hi breaks the laminar air flow across the blade (which I suspect it does), then you would actually get a reduction of air friction (drag), but I don't expect it to be nearly as significant as weight. Anyone have a wind tunnel?

Hank.

[Hyaku]

Intresting liner note:


Bohi got named bloodgroove the world over mainly because blood tends to run down the grove when you run someone through.

Experimentation: Take a Katana with a Bohi and stab a juicy watermellon. Watch where juices run and imagine it's thick blood. You can easily see how it got that name.

OMG your cutting watermelons?

Muscles contract and grip when you stab or cut and the blade can't easily be pulled out. The groove helps to release the blade.

[pgsmith]

Muscles contract and grip when you stab or cut and the blade can't easily be pulled out. The groove helps to release the blade.
Welcome back, how was vacation? Are you waterlogged yet?
I've heard some very knowledgeable people adhere to this explanation. I've also heard just as many that say it's bunk, so it's up in the air as far as I know. If I ever tsuki someone in the suigetsu, I'll let you know for sure! :)

And this is just basically us talking out of our arses :smoker:. Short of an actual scientifical study of the effects of bo-hi (which I had found a while back and lost), I don't think it's quite clear cut either way.
Actually, bohi does make a sword faster. Not by making it lighter, but by changing the balance. Cutting bohi will move the balance point much closer to the tsuka. This will make the sword respond faster. It also puts less weight out in the mono uchi, so they tend not to cut as easily.
But I sure never heard of iaidoka picking bo-hi for speed... I mean, what next, spoilers and flames down the saya?
That is a true statement. However, I know that most Toyama ryu practitioners (they cut alot) prefer a sword balanced more toward the kissaki while most iaidoka like a sword that is balanced more toward the tsuka (thus bohi). Besides, tachikaze makes kata sound so much cooler! :cool:
Hmmm ... how could I mount a spoiler ...

[Paikea]

OMG your cutting watermelons?
Under the influence of R. Lee Ermy, no doubt.