Buying Bogu in the UK

[Okori]

I've been looking at multiple sites for Bogu buying in the Uk, and although some sites look better than others, i was wondering about the actual credibility of the pics. I was originally planning to get bogu from ninecircles.co.uk, but as circumstances turn out i'm now looking for other places.

What can you recommend? I've looked for stuff on the forums but am hoping theres some more input =].


Thanks,

Luke

[JSchmidt]

http://emaishop.com/top.htm

[Flylkorean]

You should take a look at eurobogu also .

[Kingofmyrrh]

EmaiEmaiEmaiEmai etc...

[The great I AM]

EmaiEmaiEmaiEmai etc...

AgreeAgreeAgreeAgree etc...

[Banza Joe]

Yup, emai is good, if you can afford it.
I just received my new 2mm set from ninecircles and must say am impressed with it. It equals the kit i bought, and subsequently had stolen recently from Sehyun Kumdo.

What was your prob with ninecircles?

[Commander]

www.e-kendo.com (http://www.e-kendo.com) Great bogu, great price

[ben spain]

Bought my Bogu from e-kendo and I am happy with it - although I do accept that the quality is not as good as some of the other bogu I have seen (although these do cost more than twice as much!). Still as a first Bogu - it should last me at least until Shodan and then it will be almost worth upgrading anyway!

All of the stuff I have bought from emaishop has been excellent (awesome Kote protector!) and having met the owner in person - she is very nice and very helpful. Honda Sensei (British squad coach) wears emaishop Bogu (1.0 Bu Tsubame I believe)- and from my point of view that is very high praise indeed.

[Banza Joe]

Yuki (from emaishop) trains at our dojo, she's a great kendoka imho and a very nice lady. And you can often find her at seminars with a little shop selling and repairing kit. I've heard nothign but good reports of her wares. She often brings new stuff to our dojo to see if anyone is interested.
I'm gonna get a little shinai for my 7 year old son from her when i see her next.

[Commander]

Have you seen her Iaito's?

[The great I AM]

Yup, emai is good, if you can afford it.
I just received my new 2mm set from ninecircles and must say am impressed with it. It equals the kit i bought, and subsequently had stolen recently from Sehyun Kumdo.

What was your prob with ninecircles?

The service at ninecircles is second to just about everybody, as is there product. For example, I ordered a zekken from them once and the first thing they sent me was an iaido shitagi. My students all ordered hakama and keikogi from them at the start of the year, and 2 were still waiting by april, they all ordered at the same time. Every shinai I ever bought from them broke inside a month, and I know of someone whose mengane on his bougu from ninecircles wiggled inside the fitting, and another whose men buton was seperating away from the hide that the mengane fits onto. Also talk to many other London kendoka, you can here all sorts of ridiculous stories where it becomes obvious that they don't care about what they are selling, they are just in it for the cash. And that includes my own experiences with them. Which are all bad.

Use Imai san, at least she cares about what she is doing and selling.

[JSchmidt]

My impression is that Ninecircles is more interested in Iaido than kendo and product knowledge and service is accordingly.
Their armor and most of their uniforms is from kendoshop.com and you get what you pay for.

Emai's products comes from Eiko-budogu and all uses Japanese made materials. Their cheap stuff has the same issue as Ninecircles (you get what you pay for), but their medium/high level stuff is very good. Further, both Emai-san and Eiko-budogu are interested in a stronger presence in the UK and serve accordingly.

Eurobogu is a good idea, but their prices haven't kept up (or rather gone down) with the market, but valuta and competitive.


Jakob

[JSchmidt]

Erhh that didnt quite make sense:

Eurobogu is a good idea, but their prices haven't kept up (or rather gone down) with the market, both regarding valuta and the competition.

[Kingofmyrrh]

Too many nine circles screw ups to mention... and the worst bit is that once they've got your cash, they don't seem to care much about resolving any problems.
The fact that the BKA is in the process of changing their recommended supplier from nine circles to emaishop, with nine circles no longer being offered a stall at major events, is surely evidence enough that they're not particularly well regarded by many in the UK.

[Okori]

The service at ninecircles is second to just about everybody, as is there product. For example, I ordered a zekken from them once and the first thing they sent me was an iaido shitagi. My students all ordered hakama and keikogi from them at the start of the year, and 2 were still waiting by april, they all ordered at the same time. Every shinai I ever bought from them broke inside a month, and I know of someone whose mengane on his bougu from ninecircles wiggled inside the fitting, and another whose men buton was seperating away from the hide that the mengane fits onto. Also talk to many other London kendoka, you can here all sorts of ridiculous stories where it becomes obvious that they don't care about what they are selling, they are just in it for the cash. And that includes my own experiences with them. Which are all bad.

Use Imai san, at least she cares about what she is doing and selling.

Thats basically what i heard, but emaishop is obviously a good choice. I'm aiming to get something in the £300-£360 area, is this good for a beginner? i want to get something that'll last.

Thanks for all the input!

[Banza Joe]

Bugger! i wish i knew that before. In the past i'd had problems with ninecircles., but last week i spent £870 on new kit to replace stuff i had stolen last month, including bogu, shinai, bokuto, kodachi, hak, keikogi. To be fair they came through and i got everything apart from my zekken (obviously takes longer) within 5 working days.
At the end of last year they did zekkens for our dojo and ballsed them all up, so had to re-do them all.
Its good food for thought, i'd certainly prefer to use Yuki, seeing as she is a member of our dojo, but when you're budgeted, your budgeted. Plus she was out of the country when i needed to order my stuff, and i need to get the kit trained in before the lidstone and grading.

Go with emaishop (Yuki rules) :)

[Okori]

I'll probably (definetly) go with emaishop, seeing the outstanding reviews its got from everyone! ^_^

Just to clarify, when ordering it appears to be slightly different, so I need to email her to get my order in? Banza Joe said that he couldn't order his stuff when she wasn't there, so is it a one woman shop? Just want to make sure!


Cheers

[JSchmidt]

Yes, it's a one woman shop and not your standard 'add-to-basket' web-shop, so turnover isn't necessarily quick, but she's extremly helpful.

Jakob

[Flylkorean]

I'll probably (definetly) go with emaishop, seeing the outstanding reviews its got from everyone! ^_^

Just to clarify, when ordering it appears to be slightly different, so I need to email her to get my order in? Banza Joe said that he couldn't order his stuff when she wasn't there, so is it a one woman shop? Just want to make sure!


Cheers

Good choice . You'll be very happy. Which are you planning to purchase by the way?

[Okori]

From what I've seen and considering my budget and beginner status, I'll probably go for the "3mm Bogu Naname zashi Men/light weight" as its only £20 more altogether then what i was hoping to spend (£300-£360), and it appears reasonably well, not that that makes any difference coming from me.

[Flylkorean]

Nice . but a bit expensive dont you think

[LarsCW]

He will be saving it out on transport cost prolly. Keep in mind that this way he will be having service in the UK which might be another advantage. Bogu is a bit more pricy here in Europe thou then in the US or Asia.

[Flylkorean]

Please tell me how emaishop goes . Im planning on buying bogu from eikobudogu ( its partner shop ) in the future

[Okori]

Will do. I'll make sure to post on how it went! Once again thanks for all the advice.

[JamesD]

Will do. I'll make sure to post on how it went! Once again thanks for all the advice.

Any reports on how you got on with emaishop? How do you rate the set you got? I'll be looking for Bogu in the UK in the near future so I'd appreciate the feedback.

[Martyn Reeves]

The service at ninecircles is second to just about everybody, as is there product. For example, I ordered a zekken from them once and the first thing they sent me was an iaido shitagi. My students all ordered hakama and keikogi from them at the start of the year, and 2 were still waiting by april, they all ordered at the same time. Every shinai I ever bought from them broke inside a month, and I know of someone whose mengane on his bougu from ninecircles wiggled inside the fitting, and another whose men buton was seperating away from the hide that the mengane fits onto. Also talk to many other London kendoka, you can here all sorts of ridiculous stories where it becomes obvious that they don't care about what they are selling, they are just in it for the cash. And that includes my own experiences with them. Which are all bad.

Use Imai san, at least she cares about what she is doing and selling.

Mr Gibson



I would like to offer a response to your scathing review of our products and service if I may. I am not 100% sure whether this is strictly allowed under forum guidelines however I have been moved to a response.



To state that we do not care about what we are selling and that we are 'just in it for the cash' is possibly the most small minded and downright insulting thing that I have ever heard said about our company.



Mr Ball and all of our staff are commited Budoka. We do not practice Kendo, although we have attended a short course to familiarise ourselves better with the discipline in order that we may better our service to this sector of our customers. If we were simply in the business for the money then we would have abandoned Kendogu altogether many years ago and started selling Taekwondo and Ninja outfits where there are far more prospective customers to target. It is our genuine desire to support the Koryu and Gendai Budo arts in the UK and Europe and yes we do inevitably make mistakes and there are sometimes problems with products however we are always more than happy to refund or replace faulty items and do our best at all times (especially myself) to supply the highest level of service. If you have had a problem or felt let down then why not tell us so that we can try to sort your problem out and prevent similar occurrences in the future rather than pouring your disappointment out online.



I must say that I take this as a rather personal insult as I know that every day I endeavour to provide the best possible service that I can. Also I know how much my boss, Mr Ball, has put into our service over the years and he has also been shocked by the content of this thread.



You have some valid concerns, one being our Shinai range, which we have only recently identified as being poorer quality than we desire. I can only say that if you had told us of your problems we may have been able to resolve this issue sooner. In any case we have now sourced a new Shinai range which will be available soon, although no doubt you will have no interest in this.



You seem to exhibit a great lack of understanding and compassion (qualities which Budo is supposed to cultivate), with relation to the difficulties of a small specialist company that has to import all of it's items. To keep the price as low as we can for the customer the number of shipments must be kept to a minimum, we could get a special hakama for you in a week but the cost for shipping alone probably exceed that of the item itself. If you require low cost beginner’s items and we do not have them in stock then there will, of course, be some delay to get them, we will try to estimate these times as closely as possibly however they are estimates and shipping and customs delays regularly occur altering timescales. Once we order from our suppliers (from either Japan, Korea or China) the order is pretty much out of our hands until we are notified that the items have been sent, if you rant at a supplier they will take longer either this time or the next.



After 5 years of selling Kendoshops Bougu (Kendoshop produces 2000 bougu sets a month, the majority of which is sold directly to Japan) we have had very few problems and any which have occurred we have supplied a replacement for. So if you have a wobbly Men Gane, tell us and we'll sort it out, a little inconvenient yes but it's rare and we are more than happy to help.



Also with regards to Zekken, yes mistakes are common, often becase katakan translations are so ambiguos and there are many ways of writing pretty much the same thing. However if we receive a Zekken from our supplier which turns out to be wrong then we pressure them and get the correct item sent to us often in half the time that the original order would take, is this a bad service? From a purely business view Zekken would be a total waste of time as they are so much work to provide for so little profit however we understand that these items are essential to Kendoka and so provide them as a service for our customers.



Our company has grown very much in the past 3 or 4 years. It has been within this period that we have been unable to attend as many events as we would wish. Simply due to the fact that with our small staff we have not had the time or energy to load half of our stock into our Van travel half the country for a day and then return and unload, the disruption this causes to our daily service and routine is ridiculous to say the least. We would like to have enough time to attend at least a few events to get the much needed contact that we desire with our clients however until we can grow a little more then there is simply not enough man power to achieve this. This is the major reason there have been invitations to Ms Imai to attend events to our knowledge, and we have been assured by the President of the BKA that the organisation still supports Nine Circles and is very grateful for the service which we supply to them.



I hope that you have read all of my post, it is a long one I know! I rarely read such forums as I find that all this talk detracts from the spirit of practice, however I understand the benefit of the resource to beginners and this is the reason that I saw this thread today, specifically to direct one of our international customers to a place where he can get a pictorial description or some other help in putting on his bougu for the first time.



A note to Mr Jackson, I am glad that you are pleased with the quality of the 2mm Bougu that you received, please judge our service and products for yourself. Also many people are quick to make a negative note whereas fewer are prepared to make praise, if there are any practitioners out there who have had a good experience with Nine Circles then we would much appreciate your support.



We wish you all the best with your development in Budo



Kind Regards



Martyn Reeves

Sales Manager - Nine Circles

[The great I AM]

Dear Mr Reeves,

Thank you for your reply to my post, and I did indeed take the time to read the whole thing, and if you would permit me a reply here it is.

At the start of last year, my club ordered a number of things from Ninecircles, including zekken, hakama and keikogi. The experience of this alone left me somewhat jaded as to what you appear to call "High standards of service", for example, one student waiting almost 3 months for his items, or just sending the wrong items in the first place. If this were an isolated incident then fine, but my own experiences are just the same, which include recieving the wrong keikogi(Which I couldn't be bothered to send back and wait for the one I actually ordered because I needed the dam thing to use) and sending me an iaido shitagi instead of a zekken. When I called up to inform of the second one and said that I will post it on with a payment on delivery notice on the front I was told to pay for the post myself and I would get a credit note, which I absolutley did not want, as what real use is a credit note for about £3? Needless to say the shitagi is still sitting in the drawers of my desk at work.

And again, this is not the end. I have spoken to many many people who have had issue, not least the wobbly mengane, or the men where the gane actually seperated form the buton, or the person who paid for an expensive japanese dougi and recieved the cheaper korean version, or the shinai that break the first time you use them, or the "we can only embroider iai dougi" line, the complete lack of response to emails (I recall sending an email to get a quote for 15 zekken which was never even replied to) to name a few.

I can appreciate that you wish to take issue with what I said, but I am basing this opinion firmly on a consistant experience with your company, so maybe I and my club have just been thouroghly unlucky, but that and your reply are of no consolation to the people that have to wait to get their dougi while everyone else has one, or those that have to wait for their zekken because they just never arrived.

In complete contrast, Imai san has not let me down once, even when she was in japan and we could only converse through email I ordered a hakama and keikogi with a very specific design on the sleeve and sewn on the hakama (a service which I note ninecircles does not provide) and this was recieved first time, perfectly as requested, within the time scale that she and I agreed on, and for a very good price as well. THAT is good service.

I'm sorry if you don't appreciate the fact that I and my club feel terminally let down by ninecircles, but that is the way it is, and when asked or prompted I will give that opinion, particularly as we are not alone in this. If you wish to continue this discussion in a more private manner, please send me a private message with your email address, to which I will reply.

Yours Sincerely

Stuart Gibson

[Anjin-san]

...

I find the way you've reacted to Mr. Gibson's comments unsatisfactory. You seem to dismiss all the shortcomings of ninecircles as 'mistakes happen'. Whatever happened to 'the customer is always right'. As someone who's dealt with upset customers, your reaction strikes me as quite arrogant.

I personally bought a 2mm (£650) set for myself a few years ago, and the kote are falling apart. Thats my own experience, it's ok, low quality armour happens. I still only have ninecircles shinai, and thought that my poor maintenance (sanding,oiling, etc) of them was the cause of them lasting only a few months. All other shinai given to me by visiting Kendoka or as prizes for some mysterious reason seemed to last longer. These are only my personal experience, but what does this mean for you?

The simple fact of the matter is, a quick look over club accounts tells me that due to our bad experiences with you, you've lost a potential £3500 in armour revenue sales, and thats not including bougu supplier recomendations we would give to our students. At a guess, say one set of armour per student that stays on, say 10 students, thats about 10x£300 = £3000. Thats a potential £6500 in sales down the drain. You're beaten hands down in quality, price and service by foreign suppliers, even after shipping costs.

To give you an example of what I mean, with that £3500 we're purchasing 9 sets of 3mm bougu, and 6 customised team doh. Even that only comes to £3200. We know from previous experience that the bougu is high quality, some of our members bought those sets as their personal armour.

I'm sorry if I come accross as offensive, but since you've posted in a commercial capacity representing ninecircles, I've responded as a customer representing UCL Kendo Club. In the dojo, perhaps things would be different.

[Martyn Reeves]

Mr Gibson

Thank you for your reply,



I am more than happy to continue our discussion here in an open forum, however if you wish to continue privately that would also be fine. Please forgive me everyone for going slightly off topic but the issues raised here are very important to me as you will see if you read my previous (rather long monotonous) post.



When our company was started many years ago by Mr Ball (around 10 years or more now), he was able to dedicate a huge deal of time and energy into personally dealing with every customers each and every request, he had the time to source a specific companies Keikogi or to have a hakama sent as a single item from his previously frequented Budo shop with embroidery or whatever. It would appear that this is exactly the position Ms Imai is now in where one is able to wait for orders to come in to give the best service that you can.



Our company is now in the position that we buy Keikogi, Bougu and Hakama in hundreds at a time direct from their source. If we bought most items from a Japanese Budogu Yu then we would not be able to offer the low prices that we now can for what is kit of a very comparable nature. We would be able to offer embroidery on every piece but along with that would come high prices and significant delays.



We do not have an embroidery machine unfortunately, it is something we hope to add to our service in the near future however their cost for a reasonable package is very high indeed. As such until this time the only embroidery that we can offer to stitch directly on to any garment is one of our special order Iaido Gi or Hakama from our Japanese Tailors.



I must say that I am surprised to hear that you received a Shitagi instead of a Zekken, it does seems quite ridiculous and I understand your concern. We have indeed had some issues with our packing staff which we have found difficult to rectify. If you had explained your problem with the credit to us then we could have arranged to refund your card directly over the telephone or to supply you with items to the value of your shipment, for instance some shinai parts or suchlike. We can only offer our apologies for this error and the guarantee that we will do all we can to resolve the issue amicably.



Any person whose armour is faulty should immediately inform us, we will assess what the problem is either through description or picture or by requesting that the item is sent to us. As soon as we can ascertain that the damage is not caused to to misuse (because we have seen some incredible examples) then we will go about providing a replacement or come to some other agreement as soon as we can. We have sold thousands of armours over the years now and we have had complaints about possibly 2-3% of them. This really is a small number and problems are really not as frequent as your post implies, plus we want to sort any problems out.



With regards to a complete lack of response to emails I am afraid that there seems to be some confusion here. At busy times of the year there can be a backlog of email which is difficult to cope with efficiently however we will always respond as promptly as possible and would never ignore an email totally. Often emails do not get through either from or to us due to innumerable reasons, I am not a technical expert and so I cannot begin to reason why but it definitely happens. In a case where this may happen we will make every effort to sort out the customers problems asap to make up for any lost time due to the technical errors.



Obviously you and your club have been subject to a series of errors which can be obviously disheartening. I am very sorry that you feel let down by our company. We try our very best to satisfy the multitudinous requirements of our huge range of customers and I believe justifiably have (generally) a good reputation for the quality of our products and the service that we offer. I hope that in the future you will consider us once again as our company continues to evolve. As I have said previously we can only hope to better our service through feedback. Until today we have had precious little understanding of how a proportion of our customers perceive us and we can only go forward from here.

Kind Regards

Martyn Reeves
Sales Manager - Nine Circles

[The great I AM]

Mr Reeves,


Unfortunately with the umpteen errors of the course of a few years, I find it very difficult indeed to have any sort of vague faith in the service from Ninecircles. You yourself have mentioned sub standard shinai, problems with staff, and have said that to offer the same service as Imai san (with the embroidery) would result in a severe delay. Doesn't really inspire does it? As I also mentioned before, various people I have spoken to have expressed the same opinion, even people on this thread have said that they have had problems before. Do you expect me to then change my opinion and recommendation, expecially to my own students in light of all this?

When working as a younger gent in retail, we were often bombarded with facts to drill good service in to our heads. One of these was "if you have a bad experience you tell everybody, because it is wrong, if you have a good experience you tell nobody, because it is expected". This rings very true here I am afraid, and until I can hear from a few satisfied Ninecircles customers from my own ears, that things have now changed, and the service they have recently had has been impeccable, my opinion will unfortunately remain the same.

And as Najaf said, dismissing the number of mistakes I myself have experienced with Ninecircles as "mistakes happen" isn't exactly satisfactory to me either. With a reaction like that to someone who has had not one but several bad experiences with your company, what kind of image does this portray? Not to mention the whole "not in the spirit of budo" thing as well. To be honest, I'm not thinking of honour or what have you when I buy things, kendo or not, and I very seriously doubt you do either. I think of price, quality and service, not honour sincerity and selflessness.

Best Wishes

Stuart Gibson

p.s. I'm going home now, so any post will be replied to tomorrow.

[Martyn Reeves]

I find the way you've reacted to Mr. Gibson's comments unsatisfactory. You seem to dismiss all the shortcomings of ninecircles as 'mistakes happen'. Whatever happened to 'the customer is always right'. As someone who's dealt with upset customers, your reaction strikes me as quite arrogant.



I personally bought a 2mm (£650) set for myself a few years ago, and the kote are falling apart. Thats my own experience, it's ok, low quality armour happens. I still only have ninecircles shinai, and thought that my poor maintenance (sanding,oiling, etc) of them was the cause of them lasting only a few months. All other shinai given to me by visiting Kendoka or as prizes for some mysterious reason seemed to last longer. These are only my personal experience, but what does this mean for you?



The simple fact of the matter is, a quick look over club accounts tells me that due to our bad experiences with you, you've lost a potential £3500 in armour revenue sales, and thats not including bougu supplier recomendations we would give to our students. At a guess, say one set of armour per student that stays on, say 10 students, thats about 10x£300 = £3000. Thats a potential £6500 in sales down the drain. You're beaten hands down in quality, price and service by foreign suppliers, even after shipping costs.



To give you an example of what I mean, with that £3500 we're purchasing 9 sets of 3mm bougu, and 6 customised team doh. Even that only comes to £3200. We know from previous experience that the bougu is high quality, some of our members bought those sets as their personal armour.



I'm sorry if I come accross as offensive, but since you've posted in a commercial capacity representing ninecircles, I've responded as a customer representing UCL Kendo Club. In the dojo, perhaps things would be different.



Mr Ali



Thanks you for your comments. Please forgive me if I came across a arrogant in my comments it was not my intention to seem so, nor am I generally. I think what comes across is a deep sense of frustration on my part, that I and my colleagues do our very best to please our customers at all times and that our customers, instead of directly confronting us with their problems in a straightforward manner instead simply cut all contact with us and then rubbish our efforts to others.



It is interesting that you brought up 'the customer is always right'. We certainly believe that this is the case for the vast majority of the time, but is there not a threshold? If a customer demands an absurd compensation (I am not referring to any particular case) for a easily rectifiable error then in that case they are not right. In the case where a reasonable claim that there is an error with an item and they want a refund/exchange of course they are right. The problem seems to be that we are not informed of the issue so that we can resolve it, we are simply snubbed.



You have mentioned that you have a 2mm Bougu set that you have used for a couple of years. The Kote are the first things to go on any Bougu set usually and I wonder how many time you practice a week. If you practiced for 2-3 sessions a week for 2 hrs at a time then this amounts to a lot of hours of the Kote being hit and soaked with sweat. Bougu will not last forever and I do not believe that the timescale that you have indicated implies that the armour is of a low quality. Please inform me if if I am wrong as if you have practiced significantly less than this then you may have a case to have them replaced or suchlike.



As mentioned in my post we have recently identified a problem with our shinai and are now awaiting new stocks from a new supplier. Again if you had told us that the shinai were not lasting long enough then not only could you have received a replacement but we could have identified the problem sooner.



I am unsure as to what bad experiences you have had with our company but I would be pleased to discuss them via email if you wish to explain them to us.



As I have mentioned the reason for my posts is mainly because it was implied in the original post I quoted that we were purely in the business for money and that once we have customers money then we ignore them which is simply not true. Obviously we are sorry that we have lost your favour however the monetary breakdown is not of such great concern to us. The deal that you have quoted sounds very good but we would happily offer a comparable deal if you were not unhappy with the quality/service. When buying from outside of the UK it is important not to forget the issue of VAT and import duty, assuming of course that the transaction is being legally sent.



Your post does not come across as offensive, it is only a source of dissapointment that you did not come to us with your concerns as we would very much like to improve our service.



We wish you all the best with your training,



Kind Regards



Martyn Reeves
Sales Manager - Nine Circles

[Martyn Reeves]

Mr Gibson

Thanks for your reply,

I am afraid that I am not able to add further comment today, I will respond to you tommorow as soon as possible,

Kind Regards

Martyn Reeves
Nine Circles

[Hai_hai]

Thats basically what i heard, but emaishop is obviously a good choice. I'm aiming to get something in the £300-£360 area, is this good for a beginner? i want to get something that'll last.

Thanks for all the input!
£300-£360, that's like $540 - $650 US. That's more than enough for a beginner.

I would recommend http://www.moribudo.co.jp/ef-first.htm and http://www.eguchi.net.

[Paikea]

How bad are the shipping/VAT costs from the US to UK? Does that make vendors like e-Bogu or bogubag significantly less competitive in the UK/EU region?

[Kingofmyrrh]

I remember when one of my teachers bought a special order large set of kote from 9 Circles. They split after two practices and when he tried to alert them to the problem the reply was in effect 'sucks to be you'. Of course, nobody used such impolite terms, I'm not trying to imply that people from 9 circles are anything but polite, but at the end of the day, when you're told to deal with a problem like that yourself then it's difficult to have a lot of confidence in a company. On the other hand, however, I did make a club order of about ten zekken, including some pretty funky Eastern European names, and they came swiftly and well-made, so I'm definitely not trying to claim that 9 circles are all bad.
I don't doubt that a genuine interest in budo is the motivation behind the company. After all, there are many easier ways to make money. However, I can't help but feel a lack of the personal touch, at least as a kendoka. I don't think this is necessarily through a lack of effort, but with no actual kendoka present, it's difficult to build a good rapport. I'm sure that with, say, iaido, this isn't a problem at all, since I know there are some accomplished iaidoka on the team. When I was living in Japan, I always used to look forward to going to the budo shop for a chat about this and that, or to hear some advice from both the older owners and the younger part-time staff, all of whom do kendo. I can remember taking along one of my friends who had practiced kendo up until about the age of 15, then quit and restarted at 27. She was amazed that they recognized her the moment she walked through the door. I guess this is the kind of service I became used to. I accept that this isn't an easy rapport to build through mail-order, but I can't help but wonder whether a resident kendoka couldn't anticipate many of the problems that people seem to have with 9 circles.

[Anjin-san]

Thanks for your reply



You have mentioned that you have a 2mm Bougu set that you have used for a couple of years. The Kote are the first things to go on any Bougu set usually and I wonder how many time you practice a week. If you practiced for 2-3 sessions a week for 2 hrs at a time then this amounts to a lot of hours of the Kote being hit and soaked with sweat. Bougu will not last forever and I do not believe that the timescale that you have indicated implies that the armour is of a low quality. Please inform me if if I am wrong as if you have practiced significantly less than this then you may have a case to have them replaced or suchlike.

My practice schedule varies, but in buying a 2mm set of kote I was under the impression that it would last significantly longer than two years. On average over the past two years I'd say I practice for 1 1/2 hours twice per week, however this is very rough and it's probably less. Also keep in mind that a lot of this is me acting as motodachi for beginners and children, so not much sweating involved. The kote palms have holes in them, as is common. However the actual part where the kote palm is stitched to the rest of it is separated also. In addition to that, on both kote but more on the right, the join between the fist and the wrist part of the kote has eroded on the thumb side. The kote are still usable and provide adequate protection but require frequent (every couple of months) repair by Imai san, normally around £25 a go. If that is the usual wear and tear on a set of kote then so be it.



As mentioned in my post we have recently identified a problem with our shinai and are now awaiting new stocks from a new supplier. Again if you had told us that the shinai were not lasting long enough then not only could you have received a replacement but we could have identified the problem sooner.

Thats great for all your new customers. Being a beginner, I didn't know that my shinai's weren't lasting long enough, and assumed that due to my lack of technique and ability to maintain my shinai (even though I was following my sempai's instructions) thought that the shinai were supposed to break after two months use. For this reason I didn't complain. It was only when my seniors told me that they had had bad shinai's from ninecircles and that I should get them from elsewhere that I questioned their quality. I'd imagine that since the shinai is the first thing to be purchased, a lot of beginners have been through a similar situation. That being the case, seven replacement shinai would go over well!

Right now it's not so much a case of giving you feedback, here my priorities extend to, with Mr. Gibson, making the best decision for the students at our club. We base the decision of which supplier to use on consitent good service, value for money, delivery time, and the availability of the specific products that they or we want. For my own use, I may still use ninecircles for ancillary items that Imai-san can't get to me as quickly, but being responsible for the students means that I have to go with the supplier that has built a relationship with us and consistently meets our expectations.

[Michael_St_A]

As a general thought: competition between two (or more) local retailers in the UK can only be good for the kendo community.

I share the impression that ninecircles - although being good at competitive pricing - have been having difficulties getting service and quality right but the sales manager's responses here instil a little bit of hope that they will work harder in the future.

Currently, emaishop has the edge over their competition in terms of service and quality.


:-)

[JamesD]

I'm in a similar situation to the originator of the thread (first Bogu) - I've looked at a few websites US, UK, Japan, and by e-mail with emaishop. What do you guys and gals think of the:

"beginner 5mm machine stitched
artificial skin.
Men diagonal(Nanamezashi)
Kote Thick made for right Kote.
Do Black yamato
Tare 5 stitched
290 GBP"

The lady at emaishop seems very nice, they do repairs and being in the UK is an advantage if anything needs sending back or any other problems arise. Is emaishop a good place for me, or is a US site like e-bogu a better bet? I know there is no definitive answer to this but I value your opinions.

(Obviously I will speak to my sensi about the differnet choices as well)

[JSchmidt]

I have bought from both Koei Budo-gu and Tada Sangyu, both high volume companies and yet I have *always* been able to get costumisation, quality control and good service for relativly reasonably prices. (I have also shopped from Imai-san).
Initially, bang for bucks, they can't compete with the Korean armor, but they will in durability and quality and you are, IMNSHO, better off buying a 5mm Japanese made armor for the same amount of money that you can buy a 2mm Korean. No, it won't look as good, but it'll last a lot longer.
Sure, lower end Japanese bogu's are made in Korea and China, but they are still subject to a level of quality control that's not apparant when buying directly from Korean manufacturers...the examples highlighted here speaks volumes.

Then there's costumer service. I bought a deluxe balllistic bogu-bag from E-bogu. It started to fall apart after 1 month and I sent a note, asking them to check on their quality control. It wasn't a direct complaint, I didn't ask for refund or replacement, but bang! 2 days later, a new (fedex'd) bag appears, along with an apologetic email.
I send a query to Imai-san about a kiji-do. It's not on her website, but she responds quickly with prices, options, etc. It turns out that they don't have the do-dai in stock, so they have to make it, but I am constantly updated about the progress.
Next time I order, there's a small present included. It costs less than 50p, but I'm impressed nevertheless.
Tada-sangyu: I ask a query about jodan-specific shinai's. They don't have it, but offer to modify existing shinais to fit my purpose..no extra cost. I've had armor custom made for very little money.

I know that the Iaido community are pretty happy with Ninecircles, but from a kendo perspective, the level of both product and service isn't really there. I'll buy the odd knick-knack and books, but I really do struggle to see what Ninecircles offer beyond any of the other companies mentioned above. Even if you play the import-duty came with E-bogu, you still end up paying the same amount (should you end up paying duty) as you would from Ninecircles, for very similar products.

Finally, I've heard the 'it's the packers who messed up' excuse for years now. It does not inspire confidence that any measures have been taken to improve the situation.

Regards,

Jakob Schmidt,
London

[Paikea]

If Martyn had just left it alone or better yet - PM'ed the people who expressed dissatisfaction instead of posting long defensive arguments, this thread would have died quietly. Now, it's a great, permanent and free advertisement for his competition.

Oops...

[Martyn Reeves]

Dear Mr Gibson / All



It was never our intention to let this deteriorate into an argument concerning specific situations and as such this will be our final post on the matter. Obviously some people have felt let down by our products and service and we are very sorry that we have caused you any problem. We are more than happy to discuss those situations if you would like to contact us via telephone or email, details are available on our website, with regard to them.



The reason that we have posted about this and not PM’d those involved is because we wish to openly state our position rather than to leave the post which we feel to be totally unfair, unchallenged. People are entitled to their opinion to and to express it, however the statements in Mr Gibsons post go far beyond this, into comments which according to our solicitor could even be deemed to be slanderous.



In any scenario where a problem develops we will first attempt to resolve the problem as soon as possible and then address the root of the problem to try to prevent similar issues affect our customers in the future.



If any of our customers, past or present have any problems we would ask that they contact us as soon as possible so that we can address there concerns and offer a possible solution.



We are confident that our products are of a very good quality, after much investigation into the manufacturing processes, and that where we find fault we will rectify that problem as soon as possible. We are also happy that we offer a high level of service, before, during and after a sale. Again, if customers have felt that this is not the case then we would ask them to contact us and describe there problem in order that we may try to resolve it for them. We feel that this is not the action of a ‘2nd rate service’.



We hope that this will go someway to explaining our position and to demonstrate our willingness to help our customers and through their feedback improve our service and products even more.



We wish you all the best with your continuing practice,



Kind Regards



Martyn Reeves

Nine Circles

[Lucien]

I would like to add to this debate by briefly explaining my experience with Nine Circles.

I wanted to buy shinais from Nine Circles and myself and Mr Reeves exchanged a few emails regarding size and quality. I eventually bought 10 'Mu Shin' shinai in a bundle. The price was not high and I did not expect great shinai.

A year later and I am still using the original 10. The quality has been very good - no major breaks - and the balance of all the shinais has been fine.

I have bought just about every type of shinai from handmade Japanese to extremely cheap Korean, but I have been the most happy with these.

I would also add that Mr Reeves was extremely helpful throughout the process.

[JamesD]

People are entitled to their opinion to and to express it, however the statements in Mr Gibsons post go far beyond this, into comments which according to our solicitor could even be deemed to be slanderous.

Your mention of solicitors and the implied threat of taking aciton for slander has put me off your company 100%, far more than any problems of quality or service. I consider it a basic right for people such as Mr Gibson and yourself to be able to put across their position on forums such as this without implied threats of legal aciton.

[Nkd666]

In the interest of balance I would like to add that, upon the recommendation of my Sensei, I and a couple of others who bought bogu around the same time bought it from Nine Circles, and none of us encountered any problems. The armour itself is fine, the service was polite and helpful, the sizing was correct, and delivery was quick.

[LarsCW]

How bad are the shipping/VAT costs from the US to UK? Does that make vendors like e-Bogu or bogubag significantly less competitive in the UK/EU region?

When I order with E-bogu then they gift wrap it free of charge so I don't have to pay import tax because it's a gift:=)

I think you might have the same thing, it's just that some companies charge money to gift wrap.

[D'Artagnan]

...the statements in Mr Gibsons post go far beyond this, into comments which according to our solicitor could even be deemed to be slanderous.[/size]



1. What????? you're joking right???

2. Gibbo has done nothing but state his personal opinion about the service provided (or not as the case seems) by Nine Circles Budogu. He has at no point said anything that is not true. His opinion, I might add, is also one shared by an awful lot British Kendoka, Including myself, infact I actively advise people to avoid your company due to the pathetic attemps of service myself and my family have recieved. Surely this is obvious by reading the rest of the posts in the thread.

3. Congratulations on completing the WORST ever advertising campaign for Nine Circles, your Posts on this thread, I can pretty much assure, have lost nine circles even more business than if you'd have just let the opinions on this thead lie.

4. I still can't belive you claim to have some mickey-mouse solicitor who says you can sue people for publicly stating complaints about service. Or is it just a mate who has read a book once?

[Anjin-san]

While I doubt I'll be switching back to NC any time soon, Mr. Reeves has kindly offered to replace my shinai(s). I'll post to confirm when they arrive.

[Paikea]

The reason that we have posted about this and not PM’d those involved is because we wish to openly state our position rather than to leave the post which we feel to be totally unfair, unchallenged. People are entitled to their opinion to and to express it, however the statements in Mr Gibsons post go far beyond this, into comments which according to our solicitor could even be deemed to be slanderous.
Talk about falling on your sword...

Here's a thought - call your customers up a short while after delivery and see if everything's OK. Your competition does. The smart move whould have been to look Stuart up in your shipments list and give him a call (instead of the lawyer) when you read the first complaint.

[Michael_St_A]

Received goods from Nine Circles yesterday. They sent four shinai for the price of two and added a little note that they were aware that some customers were concerned about their shinai's durability.


A good sign that N C management is more aware now of quality and service issues.

[david_corvus]

Hi, James D, did u end up getting that bogu from emailshop??

if so can please comment on your expreince.

thanks :D

I really like a review on emailshop/eikobudogu :D

Thanks a million :D

Btw, to any1 else who got stuff from those companies, what would you say about the quality??

cheers

[LarsCW]

Received goods from Nine Circles yesterday. They sent four shinai for the price of two and added a little note that they were aware that some customers were concerned about their shinai's durability.


A good sign that N C management is more aware now of quality and service issues.

Does this mean you can now practise 4 times till you have to buy new shinai's?:rolleyes: j/k

[Michael_St_A]

lol @ Lars.


I believe that Nine Circles needed a wake-up call and this shipment indicates that they have woken up. We talked about their situation last night after practice and the gist was that they are in a difficult position.

Their business has been growing over the last years and they are now of a size which is not as easily controllable as a family business. They have to become more professional as a bigger player while Emaishop is the new small and flexible family business.

The market in the UK can only profit from this competition.

:-)

[JamesD]

Hi, James D, did u end up getting that bogu from emailshop??

I've not made a purchase yet - I tend to take my time over purchases, and talk to people at my club and (of course) my sensi. I will post my experience when I've made a purchase though.

[Anjin-san]

The replacement shinai from Nine Circles have arrived. Thanks Mr.Reeves.

[dotnet]

I believe the shinai from kendoshop and ninecircles are the same - at least they look very similar and kendoshop referres to ninecircles on their website.

I have just ordered and received some of these:

http://www.ninecircles.co.uk/product_details.asp?ProdID=321&CatID=16
http://kendoshop.com/eshop/index.php?mode=subdetail&num=295&flag=catedetail

One 'big grip shinai' that I ordered for a friend from kendoshop has split (one of the staves) already between the nakayui and sakigawa (3x practice). Let's hope this was an exception. The 'Ilkum' or 'Ikken' did last a long time.

Which shinai did Anjin-san and et al. have quality issues with ? Thanks.

Cheers,
dotnet

[david_corvus]

Thanks JamesD, I would really apppriecated it, I'm also contemplating the set, lol, and takeing time. I was hopping they have a sale on or something :p

than again wishful thinking :p

Are they any guys at ur club that has emailshop stuff, if so, what are they comments ?

Cheers, David

[JamesD]

Are they any guys at ur club that has emailshop stuff, if so, what are they comments


I've not found anyone (in person) who has purchased from emaishop. If anyone reading has, particularly if they have purchased the 5mm begginer sets, I would appreciate any comments you have.

[piggy]

Ouch... After reading through this thread, it has rather discouraged me to buy anything from Nine Circles. Most likely though because they can't compete with E-bogu in my location.