question about shinai

[don_lubo]

Hi everyone!I have one question.Is tehere any carbon shinai except the "Hasegawa".What is the best carbon shinai?Because "Hasegawa" doesn't have a good construction

[Alex]

Hi Don,

no there are no other carbon shinai apart from Hasegawa. I am very interested to hear why you think think that Hasegawa is no good.

By the way, I intend to go and interview the president of the Hasegawa company for an article for the 3rd issue of Kendo World.

I am interested to know what people think of Hasegawa shinai.

Cheers.:D

[supernils]

I find the Carbon Shinai to be sort of floppy and not at all as firm as Take Shinai.
I have one standard CF and one Heavy Dobari (555g). The latter is less floppy due to its greater circumference.

[don_lubo]

Alex most the people in my opinion doesn't like the "hasegawa"
they prefere the good old bamboo shinai.

[gszab]

I agree with don_lubo. There is difference between a hasegawa :p and a bamboo shinai. I have both and I think that the balance of a bamboo is much better, the cut will be faster and stronger.

Gszab

[mingshi]

Hi folks,

Although I cannot afford a carbon one yet, it's still interesting to know about it. Keep up with the technology.

I want to add another question. Apart from the manufacturing country (Japan>Korea>Taiwan>China, etc.), what constitute the quality of a shinai? I heard of the word "balance" a few times. Can someone explain more...?

Thank you with bowing _\O/_

[gszab]

Hi Mingshi, :cool:

I write down my experience with these questions.
I experienced that the center of gravity differs in the case of the shinais and this gives that balance feeling difference. This is one of my "problem" with my hasegawa, that has not so good balance. The other thing which I experienced that the diameter of the tsuka is a little bit larger in the case of carbon shinai and the grasp is not so good :confused: . I am interrested that what other hasegawa owners think in this question.
I saw so that the quality of a shinai depends on the quality of the bamboo stick ,which from the shinai is made, and on quality of that small leather parts( tsuka gawa, saki gawa...). Others must be better informed.

[damocles]

Originally posted by Alex
I am interested to know what people think of Hasegawa shinai.

Alex> I have the Hasegawa CF-39M - the base model, I believe. In comparison to a traditional shinai:

it has/will last ages without breakage.

it is more flexible which you can definitely feel in your strike. the bend test (tsuka on the wall, sakigawa on the floor 20 degree angle, and push with roughly even force just below the tsuka)
next to my regular shinai gives it about 2-3 times more bow.

it does tend to 'clack' and sound loosely tied no matter how tight I tie the nakayui.

conclusion: hasegawa shinai = regular keiko. traditional shinai = shiai & gradings

:)



Originally posted by mingshi
I want to add another question. Apart from the manufacturing country (Japan>Korea>Taiwan>China, etc.), what constitute the quality of a shinai? I heard of the word "balance" a few times. Can someone explain more...?

mingshi> at the most extreme sort of balance difference, you have regular shinai, and doburi shinai.

doburi shinai have a fatter mid-body and thinner monouchi than regular shinai - thus the weight distribution is closer to your hands which theoretically makes a shinai easier to weild by taking all that nasty weight away from the outer extremities. :)

I think in regular shinai the general shape is unchanged, but the weight distribution/balance is tipped towards either end by the thickness of the take at any given point on your shinai

For example, I took apart my japanese shinai and saw that the tsuka end of it had virtually no 'hole' at the end so I could look down the barrel, so to speak.

my first shinai on the other hand I could probably have fit my pinky finger into the end of it.

Hope this helps. :)

[Hyaku]

A little bit off thread but most of these bamboo shinai are not Japanese anyway. Neither is the bogu. It is said that Japanese bamboo is far more pliable and will not dry out so quickly. So if you can get a Japanese one its better.

As I mentioned earlier doesnt anyone spare a thought for the person on the receiving end?

Hyakutake Colin

[alexpollijr]

Hyaku,

I've heard stories that most shinai and bogu are not really japanese made. They just produce it on korea or china and take it to japan to stamp that cute little label on them, but do you mean it's for real?

It seems that only 'madake' bamboo shinai and tezashi bogu are completely japanese, is it so?

Alex Polli

[Simon Chien]

Hi all,

I am working and living at Shanghai. There are a lot of manufacturing factories here making all kinds of product including kendo related products. People from Japan , Korea and Taiwan set up their factories here for the production of martial art product. The consumption of kendo product is very very low here in China. So you can say they export everything to countries worldwide.

However , it's the philosophy of the owner of the factory which determine the quality of products. It's the boss who determine whether their worker should be well-trained for the skill of making bougu or not. It's the boss who determine whether they should have a strict Quality Control Policy. And the same to the choosing of the raw material.

IBM , Compaq & HP set up their factory here. But they will say it's made in china when they put the product in the market.

Here're my opinion in short :
1. Lying to people who buy product from them is absolutely
wrong (say "made in Japan " but actually from china).
2. It's the management people of the factory who determine the
quality of product. Not country
3. Even the product is final-assembled in Japan. Some or even
most parts may came from other country such as china.

[damocles]

Originally posted by Hyaku
As I mentioned earlier doesnt anyone spare a thought for the person on the receiving end?

Hyaku> I've had no complaints from my training partners... I'm told that the force of my strikes are roughly the same if I'm using the hasegawa or traditional shinai.

[Daniel Zoot]

Alex,

I picked up my first one in 88 (a CF-39 of that vintage), and finally broke it over someone's head in 99.

Two years ago when we stayed at your place and watched the Kyoto takai, I went up to the Hasegawa people at their stand, and told them how wonderful I though their product was. When I told them how many years I got out of it, their response was, "sou iwareru to komarimasu yo." I thought they'd have been delighted to hear it. I guess they want us to break them faster so that we have to buy more of them?!

That one got probably an average of two practices a week over the ten years. It finally went t.u. in a renshu jiai by splitting transversely on one slat.

While I think they feel a little nibui compared to bamboo, they've saved me from not being able to practice on many occasions.

--Daniel

[don_lubo]

Ecerybody knoes that the most masters of kendo prefere the bamboo shinai.It is not so good as the hasegawa but the old kendoist are conservations.

[Antonin]

Well, I will voice the opinion of the receiving end. i hate carbon sinai, because:
1) they look horrible
2) they sound horrible
3) they sting the receiving end during kote
4) they bend too much
5) they mark my do
Ok, the last point doesn't bother me too much givne the curent state of my bogu, but it will when buy a new one.

[don_lubo]

Antonin i agree your opinion but only with 4)
I think that 1) and 2) are not very good explications.

1)The bamboo shinai is more heavy
2)It is more expensive
3)It has more difficult compoments than a "Hasegawa"

[damocles]

antonin>
1) their looks are a matter of taste, IMO
2) I agree, their sound does make it difficult to judge a correct point.
3) are you sure it's not your fellow kendo-ka's lack of tenuchi?
4) the fact that they bend so much is an indicator of how much force is put into a strike. (ie. lack of tenuchi)
5) can't argue with that. ;) (even if I haven't come across it)

don_lubo>
1) traditional shinai aren't more heavy... (there ARE weight specifications for shinai...) actually traditional shinai are are probably balanced better.
2) in the long term, yes, buying traditional shinai does end up costing more.
3) er... traditional and carbon shinai have exactly the same number of parts... it's just a difference in take material...

okay, hands up how many people think I've harped on enough?

*looks about*

I thought so.

shutting up. ;)

[don_lubo]

damocles>
Everybody knoes that the bamboo shinai(for men's not for kids) is more heavy than a "hasegawa" carbon shinai.
You say that the material is differrent.I'm not talking about the parts of the shinai.I'm talking about the material.Everybody can
bulild him self a carbon shinai if hi has the parts.But if he want's to build a bamboo shinai and he has the parts it is more difficult and expensive.And one good bamboo shinai cost more than 450$.

[lucian]

I thought the same class of shinai, juniors, woman’s & men’s all had set weights as well?
a size 39 DB shinai and the same in graphite, Is the weight difference of the 2 shinai not an illusion? Caused by the means of production the graphite design would have been designed on computer to give the overall balance making it appear lighter at the tip as in the case of some bamboo one’s the balance can be more to the tip which plays more on gravity creating the illusion of it being heaver?
I am probably wrong I drop physics before uni

“God my physics teacher will be killing him self with laughter right now with the way i am struggling to explain that, ”

[damocles]

::sigh::

check out the weight specifications for carbon shinai at the hasegawa site. weights, i believe, are not inclusive of any fittings: sakigawa, tsukagawa, tsuba, et cetera...

http://www.hasegawakagaku.co.jp/eshinai.htm

and the specifications of shinai in general, fittings inclusive, in section 10b of the Japanese Sword arts FAQ.

http://www.ii.uib.no/~kjartan/swordfaq/section10.html

alternatively, if you can view japanese pages on your browser, the ZNKR has the specifications here:
http://www.kendo.or.jp/japanese/rule/hyou.html
second table from the bottom, last column.
bottom table is for nitto shiai

ALL shinai have to conform to these specs.

[Antonin]

Damocles,
Of course, all this is a matter of personnal taste, I was stating why *I* don't like carbon shinai. Another poin I did not mention is that generaly speaking, I prefer the use of natural materials in clothing, construction, furniture, etc, and that it is therefore logical that take shinai appeal to me more.
As for the lack of tenuchi of some of my colleague, well, this is a problem plaguing most of us, I believe :-(
i am not sure I understand the argument about the number of bits in a shinaia and one being more difficult than the other to mount. mounting a shinai is a trivial exercise that any kendoka should be able to master in a mater of hours, no ?

Don_lubo : $450 for a shinai ? Ok, if yoou go for that sort of prices for a shinai, I undestand why you think carbon is cheaper in the long run ! Can I suggest that buying reasonable priced take shinai coul also solve the problem ? in the last 2 years, I must have spend around $100 for 3 shinai, and two of them are still in perfect condition. i just sand them and oil them regularily and they resist very well.
A.

[durrell4]

Carbon shinai's should never be used by beginners. Because it will not break when they hit incorrectly it helps reinforce poor strikes that become bad habits in the future. In practice bambo shinai will break if the front of the men is struck at a shallow angle. This is a common problem for adult beginners. The economics of poor strikes quickly help these students work on fixing their waza. With carbon the continue for years making crappy slaps at the men with little tennouchi for years. As with most kendoist I have a carbon (my second), but I do not use it any longer unless I am out of bambo shinai. If you find that you are breaking bambo shinai often it may be time to evaluate your strike for fundamental problems

If it is unclear from the above rant, I do not like carbon shinais. With the numbers of "powerful" kendo players my wrist are covered in blue.

[JSchmidt]

"As I mentioned earlier doesnt anyone spare a thought for the person on the receiving end?"

Most people I know, who use carbonfiber shinais hits way too hard.


Jakob

www.hizen.org

[chidokan]

I watched some shinai being made at the Kyoto taikai last week and also had a play with some carbon ones. I must say I've never really been impressed with them and after wandering about finally went back and bought a handmade bamboo one. The balance and finish is brilliant and was well worth the money. Bamboo ones last me quite a while as I try not to hit too hard and I look after them. The problem is over here that you don't really get to see the good quality ones and have to take 'pot luck' when buying. I've had good and bad ones from both China and Taiwan at all sorts of prices, so next time I'm over in Japan I will make sure I don't forget to buy enough to last me until I go again!

Tim

[damocles]

Originally posted by Antonin
Damocles,
Of course, all this is a matter of personnal taste, I was stating why *I* don't like carbon shinai.

ah... yeah. sorry 'bout that.


i am not sure I understand the argument about the number of bits in a shinaia and one being more difficult than the other to mount. mounting a shinai is a trivial exercise that any kendoka should be able to master in a mater of hours, no ?

yep. I don't understand either. don_lubo pretty much lost me with that... :confused: I was referring to mounts... I don't know what he was referring to...

[Kenshi]

Hi,

Part of this thing called BUDO is SHUGYO. Included in this is doing lots of the evil kirikaeshi, uchikomigeiko, kakarigeiko, lugging my bogu on the underground, travelling massive distances to attend taikai, etc etc etc one important part of this process for me is the care and maintenance of my shinai .... which - it seems - you lose part of when you use a carbon shinai. I am not saying you dont have maintenance, but that it is less.

I enjoy a good shinai maintenance session, especially if outdoors with the sun and beer :)

Cheers,

[Hyaku]

I would have to agree with you George. I like to spend time preparing carefully. Checking my weapons. Folding my clothing carefully and correctly Its all good metal preparation for a competition or demonstration.

Also a very well known Iaido teacher I know was impressed to see a kendo teacher he knew wipe his shinai off like a sword after practice.

Hyakutake Colin

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword

[GriffM-J]

Hi

As a begginer I thought that the Carbon Shinai was a good idea (cost wise), I have one and it is gathering dust! I have found that they are frowned upon in the UK but also used as a status symbol by the higher grades? I have not really used mine because of the fact that I cant really feel the movement of the opposing shinai, as a beginner I think that I would be losing out on an important part of training without the ability to anticipate from movement. I also have a liking for the oval grip which I dont think you can get in CF?

kind regards
GriffM-J
Nagamitsu Dojo, UK. Ikkyu

[Alex]

Hi there,

actually, you can get the carbon shinai with oval grips.

I was interested to see comments about the carbon shinai being more flexible than bamboo. Tests have shown that bamboo is more shock absorbant than carbon, and therefore better for yourself and the joints in your arms, and your opponent, their joints, and their equipment...In fact, more than a few people in Japan are worried about the long term effects of being hit by the carbon shinai. Interestingly, these long term effects are also forcasted to be evident in the users of carbon shinai as well.

Still, I would rather be hit by a carbon shinai than by some of the shinai I have seen in countries where bamboo shinai are not readily available...

[don_lubo]

The problem is in the large diferance between the katana and the bamboos hinai.The master that use a bamboo shinai is not so good as he hold a real sword in real fight.That is the bigges problem in Kendo.

[GMason]

Alex,

I have also be told that the Carbon shinai are not very good for the kendoka who is performing the cut. As they transmit the impact from the cut straight down the arm in to the elbow, giving the kendoka tennis elbow.

Where as the Bamboo shinai is a lot better at absorbing the impact and preventing the same problems.

[ben]

No-one has mentioned what I feel is the main disadvantage with carbonfibre shinais, and that is the wrist and elbow soreness from constant use.

There's a kind of received wisdom about this that says it's due to the plastic transferring more of the shock to the kendoka's arms than the bamboo, which absorbs it more. I don't know how you measure this scientifically but it sounds like a good hypothesis.

Apart from that I agree with most of the posts so far. They're great to have in your shinaibukuro as an emergency back-up. Personally I try and avoid using mine for prolonged periods of time. If I was rich I'd probably never use one!

B

[ben]

Originally posted by ben
No-one has mentioned what I feel is the main disadvantage with carbonfibre shinais, and that is the wrist and elbow soreness from constant use.

B

That'll teach me not to check over the page! As soon as I posted I saw the previous post had already mentioned this point:(

Oh well. At least it shows I'm not the only one to suffer Hasegawa-Elbow! :D

[damon4130]

Hi Don,

no there are no other carbon shinai apart from Hasegawa. I am very interested to hear why you think think that Hasegawa is no good.

By the way, I intend to go and interview the president of the Hasegawa company for an article for the 3rd issue of Kendo World.

I am interested to know what people think of Hasegawa shinai.

Cheers.:D

Durability is a good think but I'm not very fond of my Hasegawa -way too much flex! Just give me good old bamboo and I'll be just fine, and take the Hasegawa as a spare in case the other breaks.

[hyuna]

I was interested to see comments about the carbon shinai being more flexible than bamboo. Tests have shown that bamboo is more shock absorbant than carbon, and therefore better for yourself and the joints in your arms, and your opponent, their joints, and their equipment...
I don't know what the proper engineering term is for this, but what I find is that carbon shinai is less flexible in the sense that it requires greater force to start it bending, but then once it starts to bend it "gives" suddenly and then bends very easily and very far. I find bamboo shinai feels the opposite.

My one big complaint about carbon is that this fact has caused me to have very soft wrists after hitting, so as to minimize the "snapback" of the shinai, and I think that has had some negative impact on my zanshin.


I have also be told that the Carbon shinai are not very good for the kendoka who is performing the cut. As they transmit the impact from the cut straight down the arm in to the elbow, giving the kendoka tennis elbow.
I got tennis elbow from bamboo. My doctor told me it was an overuse injury and had to do with uneven development of muscles. He prescribed stretching and a weird rubberband exercise. Point is that he didn't give me any reason to think that using carbon would have made it any worse...


With the numbers of "powerful" kendo players my wrist are covered in blue.
Regarding this and other complaints about bruises from carbon, I would have say that I think that is because of your partner's tenouchi and not something intrinsic to the shinai. Feedback I have received from my partners is that my hits feel harder when I am using bamboo, not carbon -- in particular, when I am using my "koto" style shinai, which is heavier and harder to use (and I therefore have correspondingly less control over).

I think if carbon is to blame for that it is people who have always used carbon have not had the economic disincentive to control themselves. However, I do not think even that problem should be considered intrinsic to carbon because we ought to be teaching beginners not to club regardless of what they are using. It may simply be the case that we must be more aggressive about telling carbon users that they are hitting hard than bamboo users. I don't think it is best to rely on the shinai to teach the lesson instead of us.

Related to my very first point, I suspect the timing of the tenouchi has to be different for my carbon than my bamboo. But, it is not something that I think about, since the balance is so completely different that it takes me a fair amount of time to get my form back if I switch between bamboo and carbon.

Which leads me to my next point: I disagree with the advice to use bamboo for shiai and shinsa and carbon for keiko. Personally, I cannot do it. The balance and everything is just too different. I think you have to use what you will be using for shiai and shinsa for keiko if you want to be able to do your best.


Part of this thing called BUDO is SHUGYO
I am not really sure that using a carbon does significantly reduce maintenance. Maybe it does if you own 2 or 3 carbons. However, you must always have a spare shinai, even if you mostly use carbon, since carbon does break and it is no good to be unprepared. I myself carry 3 shinai to practice, a carbon, a bamboo dobari, and a bamboo koto. In addition, I keep 1 spare bamboo dobari and koto at home. So, I keep 4 bamboo shinai in good repair even though I admit I primarily use carbon. And the carbon must also be checked before and after each practice. Maybe it is my personal bias, but I do not feel like I am less dedicated to practice simply because I have to purchase a replacement bamboo shinai less often.

One final point: if (and I agree it is arguable (but I feel it is true)) carbon is safer for people to practice with because of no splinters, etc, then would it not be better for kendo to use carbon? Yes, carbon does not feel as nice, does not sound as nice, etc, but are aesthetics more important than safety? I agree with Hyaku that one should be concerned about their partner. It sems it might lead me to a differen conclusion, however.

[Sasaki]

I've been wanting a Hasegawa shinai really badly. They're so cool...
Maybe i'll get one in a few years. It's said that they are pretty good for normal practice... and pretty good as "support shinai" since they don't break so easily.
The price is really yuck though. They could make it a bit cheaper... Maybe around 100 bugs would be fine?

EDIT:
I absolutely agree with hyuna.

[karai]

They need to improve their plastic so that no dents are made.

[SamuelRiv]

What is the appropriate level to start using a carbon shinai, then? The thing is that I tend to practice a lot (5 times a week or more) during the school year and summers, and so I go through about 3-5 shinai a year (I use the cheapest kind). However, I'm only a recent shodan and still feel my tenouchi needs a bit of work - I'd just kind of like it for certain jigeiko where I know the risk of breaking might be greater.

[imnothere]

Doesn't it hurt more when you hit someone with carbon shinai?

Or so I thought anyway. I am avoiding carbon shinai because of that.