Naginata Tsuba

[emitbrownne]

Hi,
My Naginata has arrived at long last... YAY! :rolleyes:

I do not really know what I'm doing and I am just getting used to the stance and the various Kamae.

One thing I noticed when practicing with my Sensei (fighting with Shinai) is that he could move inside easily by sliding down past the blade and down the staff portion of the Naginata.
If I had a Tsuba on the naginata, this would be harder.
I noticed whilst shopping on the net, that the naginata bokken (sorry for the terminology... y'know the naginata you use for Kata) have a Tsuba on them.

My shai Naginata does not have a Tsuba...is this normal???
Are there any regulations forbidding a tsuba....???
I believe I could fix a tsuba from a bokken onto the Naginata that would be both sturdy and safe...
It would unfortunately be permanent... well sort of...
My last question of this ramble is should I affix a tsuba??


Help please:confused:

[R A Sosnowski]

Originally posted by emitbrownne

My shai Naginata does not have a Tsuba...is this normal???


Yes. A Shiai Naginata is not supposed to have one. Only the all-wood Kata Naginata have them.


Are there any regulations forbidding a tsuba....???
I believe I could fix a tsuba from a bokken onto the Naginata that would be both sturdy and safe...
It would unfortunately be permanent... well sort of...
My last question of this ramble is should I affix a tsuba??

Help please:confused:

In normal Shiai of Naginata vs. Naginata, a tsuba is not required.

I don't know about the regulations per se.

In Isshu Jiai (mixed weapons contest), if you do not know what you are doing, and you instructor (with Shinai) does, then the outcome does not surprise me at all. :D

A classmate of mine has made a interesting observation with respect to Kendo-ka vs. Naginata-ka. Given equal levels of experience, at the lower levels, the Kendo-ka has the edge; however, at the high levels, the Naginata-ka has the edge. Reason: Naginata is harder to learn to manipulate, but when you do, it is superior.

BTW, are you allowed all the Naginata Datotsu (striking targets) including Sune (shin)? If not then you are at an extreme disadvantage as a "beginner." Remember that there is not need for Gedan no Kamae in Kendo Shiai - it gets them every time.

HTH.

[emitbrownne]

Thanks.

Surely a tsuba in Nag Vs Nag would be advantageous as you could use it to ensnare your oponents blade??

I bought Sune-ate at the same time I bought the Naginata, and I am getting used to the feel of them. People I fence will more than likely not have these... so it will be all upper body targets for me:p

Until I can convince the Dojos I go to, to spend a little money :)

[Paburo]

this should go in another thread but, when a naginatado vs. kendo match is held, is sune a valid target for the kenshi as well???

do they have special sune uchi that you can use while fighting a naginata with a shinai??

[emitbrownne]

Talking with friends (which is not the best source of official information) it seems that Sune is a valid target for Kenshi.

I'm not sure how the low cut takes place without losing posture though :)

[Nagi David]

Hello,

you are not suppose to put a tsuba on your shiai Naginata.

I know it is not easy at first when you fight against a kendo ka, but you have to understand that your strenght against a shinai is the lenght of your Naginata. Keep a distance between you and your opponment. You can hit him from far away, he cannot.

[emitbrownne]

Originally posted by Nagi David
you are not suppose to put a tsuba on your shiai Naginata.


May I ask Why?
Does it give too much of an advantage?

[Nagi David]

because Atarashi Naginata is ruled like this.

http://www.home.zonnet.nl/paul_spr/images/naginata.gif


http://www.home.zonnet.nl/paul_spr/images/naginatatypes.gif

[emitbrownne]

Kay thanks:) :) :)

[hamish]

The tsuba would give you no advantage whatsoever, the curve of the blade is what allows you to entangle and otherwise control your opponent's blade.

It would also be dangerous to your opponent if you happen to hit them with the tsuba, hence it is against the regulations to affix a tsuba or any other object to the naginata.

One of the biggest deciding factors in isshu jiai is how much experience you have in fighting the other weapon.

And yes, the kendoka can go for sune, usually using orishiki waza (dropping to one knee as you strike), otherwise you'll most likely hit their knee (ouch!!)

[emitbrownne]

Cheers :)

[Jakob Ryngen]

Originally posted by R A Sosnowski
Given equal levels of experience, at the lower levels, the Kendo-ka has the edge; however, at the high levels, the Naginata-ka has the edge. Reason: Naginata is harder to learn to manipulate, but when you do, it is superior.
My experience is exactly the opposite, but I must admit that I have not played vs shinai very much. A beginning kendoka will always be hit on the sune and once he starts to protect his legs he will be hit on the head. Kote is also much easier vs a kendoka as he stands closer and usually revese kamae to a naginataka. Once a kendoka starts to get the grip on things the naginataka will have problems. Sune strikes with a shinai is very effective and sounds a lot!
BTW, are you allowed all the Naginata Datotsu (striking targets) including Sune (shin)?
IFAIK, yes. I have not found any "official rules", but this is what you see on tournaments. (As tsuki with the ebu probably not has been officially banned vs a kendoka I guess that is valid as well :))

BTW, a tsuba would not give you any advantage and I think the reason why it was added was for decoration. You never see a naginata with a tsuba on the battlefield.

[emitbrownne]

Hi,
I have yet to find a photo of a Naginata with a tsuba (most of my searching has been in the nagasaki univerity picc database), but most of the woodblock prints I have seen depict a Naginata with Tsuba.

This was the reason why I asked the original question in this thread.

I have a had a few sparring sessions/bouts with the naginata now, and I love it.
My apologies to all the die hard naginata-ka (?!?), but Kendo is still my first love :)

[emitbrownne]

Another Tsuba...

Dont worry I wont post any more :)

[Jakob Ryngen]

In the first picture the tsuba may be for decoration but I have a harder time to explain the other one. Do you know how old the woodprint is? If it is not period whith the scene it is ment to picture the tsuba may be an anacronism.

[emitbrownne]

The artist I believe is Kuniyoshi, created around 1847-1848 from 'Stories of the faithful samurai' series, the 47 Ronin .

I'll keep looking...... :)

[R A Sosnowski]

Jakob Ryngen wrote:

BTW, a tsuba would not give you any advantage and I think the reason why it was added was for decoration. You never see a naginata with a tsuba on the battlefield.

According to Ellis Amdur in The Development and History of the Naginata (see Old School: Essays on Japanese Martial Traditions),

"In the fifteenth century, more and more weapons featured the addition of a tsuba (hand guard) at the base of the blade. This served to deflect an enemy's blade from slipping up the shaft and cutting off one's fingers. ... That the hand guards became almost "standard issue" by the sixteenth century indicates that swordsmen and naginata fighters had become formidable indeed." (p. 118)

Real naginata have tsuba for the same reason that tachi and katana have tsuba - to protect the hands and fingers. All the bladed Japanese weapons I am familiar with have some sort of guard except for some tanto (a very short-range weapon), some yari (a rather long-range weapon) and kama (the blade is the guard as it is mounted 90 degrees to the shaft) derived from farm implements (see Kusarigama: the Chain-and-Sickle in Old School).

HTH,

[Jakob Ryngen]

Hm... I think I read about the tsuba added for decoration in another article by Ellis Amdur... I might be wrong, though...

[Nagi David]

http://membres.lycos.fr/naginataforet/images/img8.jpg

http://membres.lycos.fr/naginataforet/images/estampe04.jpg

Yari doesn't have any tsuba, but I think traditional naginata has.
I have some pictures of tsuba with Naginata on them

http://www.japanese-swords.com/tsuba-gallery/images/051-Naginata.jpg

[Jakob Ryngen]

Ok, we know that many naginata have tsuba. The question is when was it added and why. My idea was that it was added after it's removal from the battlefield and mostly for decoration. I have read this somewhere but so far I have not found it again. So, women using a naginata on woodprints after the Sengokku period is not what I am looking for.

[emitbrownne]

Hi,
sorry everyone to drag this one from the depths again but I've been thinking ...(yep it does take an average of 7 months for a thought to formulate in my wee noggin)

The tsuba would give you no advantage whatsoever, the curve of the blade is what allows you to entangle and otherwise control your opponent's blade.

It would also be dangerous to your opponent if you happen to hit them with the tsuba, hence it is against the regulations to affix a tsuba or any other object to the naginata.

If the Tsuba for naginata was made of the same type of rubber that hold the Tsuba on most bokken surely it would be quite safe. Sturdy yet flexible??

Anyway, isnt the idea to cut with the blade rather than the Tsuba?... If you strike an opponent with the Tsuba, then surely you distancing is wrong?

Ahh... I dont know... I've had too much coffee again.. and too early a start to the day :D

[Jakob Ryngen]

Here is a naginata I managed to take a picture of. I am told it is from the 16th century and it does not sport a tsuba.

[xvikingx]

"Anyway, isnt the idea to cut with the blade rather than the Tsuba?... If you strike an opponent with the Tsuba, then surely you distancing is wrong? "

>True but considering how small the habu is it is very easy to end up cutting too deep for various reasons (ie: height difference, opponent moves in at the same time, etc...) Getting hit with the sandan-maki (sendan?) already rings my bell, I don't need anything added to that.

"If the Tsuba for naginata was made of the same type of rubber that hold the Tsuba on most bokken surely it would be quite safe. Sturdy yet flexible??"

>Like Hamish said all you need is the curve of the blade; a tsuba is pointless in atarashii naginata. Besides if you at the point where you are crossing tsuba, fix you maai or strike! :D

[emitbrownne]

Great.. Thanks everybody. :D

[Phil]

just about the tsuba...

i don t see why it would be usefull to have a tsuba ... with or without you will got a kote ;)
the tsuba dont protect you on a naginata...


Phil

[emitbrownne]

just about the tsuba...

i don t see why it would be usefull to have a tsuba ... with or without you will got a kote ;)
the tsuba dont protect you on a naginata...
Phil
My original thinking, was to be able to stop kendoka from sliding down the enite length of the naginata... because they keep contact as they move very fast towards me, it becomes hard for me to move any way but backwards.

I thought the tsuba may act as a stopping point for the shinai.

But I've been experimenting with the twist... and the movement flicks the shinai quite well.

[xvikingx]

My original thinking, was to be able to stop kendoka from sliding down the enite length of the naginata...

A solid chudan should remedy that :D Give 'em hell!

[Nagi David]

but in a way as we strike from far away and we change alot our hand position to change kamae , I believe tsuba are less necessary.

[Henry Jones Jnr]

Dear Emit
Gleetings from Mumeshei Kendo Club in London. We practice Naginata every weekend on Sundays from 10am till 11.30, then if Holt Sensei is up for it we get to try and beat him. Sometimes we win. When you fight Naginata against Naginata, personally I think that a suba would get in the way especially if you want to fight close and score with a kote. Why not come down or let Terry know and I could pay you a visit hee hee hee. Why use a suba when you can use the ebu instead.

[hyouriittai]

Jakob Ryngen wrote:



According to Ellis Amdur in The Development and History of the Naginata (see Old School: Essays on Japanese Martial Traditions),



Real naginata have tsuba for the same reason that tachi and katana have tsuba - to protect the hands and fingers. All the bladed Japanese weapons I am familiar with have some sort of guard except for some tanto (a very short-range weapon), some yari (a rather long-range weapon) and kama (the blade is the guard as it is mounted 90 degrees to the shaft) derived from farm implements (see Kusarigama: the Chain-and-Sickle in Old School).

HTH,

Yari probably don't have tsuba because their primary strikes are stabs. Many had "stilleto-style" heads, with three or four edges that were used to tear up an enemy's innards once the spearhead breaks flesh. So the tsuba might hinder it from penetrating an enemy's body deeply enugh in order to.. well.. do that. (If you could see my face right now, it'd be wincing.)