Traits of a 'good' kendo student.

[dotnet]

I have been thinking about qualities/ traits of a 'good' kendo student. What traits are found in a good kendo student ?

Straightforward I'd say the ability to listen and to absorb advice from your sensei and sempais. Perseverance and sutemi are also very important but I got stuck on the idea of listing and follow-your-senseis-advice. On first sight, this could be a positive trait but is it really that good ? People who simply listen and copy can only advance as far as their sensei has come. Now this is a lot if you are living in Japan and you have a highly experienced and impeccable sensei. In other parts of the world this can be a different story.

I might have to go back to a definition of what 'good' in 'good kendo student' means. I believe the follwing points should be achieved:

1. excellent technical skills
2. impeccable character
3. skills to further the development of kendo.

Well, listening might earn you excellent technical skills but 2. and 3. are not only achieved by listening and following advice. Reflection on advice received and reflection on your actions in addition to questioning a great deal are IMHO very important. From what I have read/ experienced so far, questioning is not really appropriate until you have travelled a very long way on the way of the sword. First you do what your sensei tells you. Once you have attained mastery, you can go your own way.

I was just wondering if you are going to loose the ability to question and to refelect on this strenuous way. I believe fostering these abilities all the time is important. Only then can all three abilities be achieved. But this sounds like trouble ... ;)

I mean: Great martial artist have questioned the establishment (musashi, bruce lee (not sure to what extend)). From what I have read about Yamaoka Tesshu I could also imagine that there were some conflicts too, although he often stresses the importance of the tradition.

To sum it up: Isn't the ideal student the one who listens and reflects but secretly questions the senseis advice; being a rebel when the sensei isn't very good ? This seems like a clash with honesty, sincerity and rei to me if he wants to stay in his dojo.

I hope it wasn't too confusing. :redface:

I appreciate your thoughts in this matter !

Cheers,
dotnet

[Flylkorean]

Play guitar and tennis . Those are good traits with kendo.

Guitar - Rhythm and timing. Why not other intruments? Go ask your sensei.

Tennis- Fast, sharp reflexes and reactions.


They go very well with kendo .

[dotnet]

Guitar - Rhythm and timing. Why not other intruments? Go ask your sensei.
Tennis- Fast, sharp reflexes and reactions.


But this primarily adresses technical skills. I was looking for character qualities (i.e. traits). Or am I simply too unmusical to grasp the concept ?

Cheers,
dotnet

[Flylkorean]

But this primarily adresses technical skills. I was looking for character qualities (i.e. traits). Or am I simply too unmusical to grasp the concept ?

Cheers,
dotnet

Hmm probably the only trait that you need in kendo is "jasheen". Its a korean word but I frgt what its American counterpart is.... I think its spirit. If you have the spirit to learn, that is enough. Other traits will come to you once you get deep into kendo. Examples, honesty, loyalty, honor, etc. If you really wanna learn kendo, thats all you need. That "jasheen" to learn will make you a good kendoka.

- if any koreans can help me on the "jasheen" , it would much appreciated.

[TcDohl]

You forgot masochism.

But I think in any case, it's the same as a student of anything, budo or non-budo. One of the most important traits is having a great willingness to learn. Willingness to learn, whether you're good in kendo or not, will go a long way in building character.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Just show up regularily. Experience has shown me it's a trait that 99% of kendo students don't have.

[Yiu Fai]

Play guitar and tennis . Those are good traits with kendo.

Tennis- Fast, sharp reflexes and reactions.

They go very well with kendo .

If you think tennis is good for those reasons, you should play table tennis. Faster than a cheetah with a molotov up its behind, it's wicked! The day i bought my first table i was truely a happy man :)

[Infinity]

Just show up regularily. Experience has shown me it's a trait that 99% of kendo students don't have.

i agree.
skills will develop as long as this one trait exists...

[tantadi]

Just show up regularily. Experience has shown me it's a trait that 99% of kendo students don't have.
Is this a trait of kendo? I've noticed that people seem to come and go, and not train very regularily, compared to other martial arts.

[Miravil]

I'm not sure does this make any sense to you, I try to participate every practice unless I really have to work. Sometimes due to certain circumstances I even went to class late (but not practicing), and sit one side to observe. I'll still show up when I can't practice, for example, injured. I noticed that I am among those who given more attention and respect by the senseis than those who just fool around. This is just part of my experience, not intend to prove anything. :)

[JSchmidt]

1st: Perseverance.

You can argue about character, but lack of good technical ability does not mean that people aren't good students. For the most of the kendo population, kendo isn't about getting to point A, it's about the journey. Granted, we got certain expectations and goals, often followed by an idea of how long it should take to get there (at least the nearest couple of goals), but it is still the journey that's important.

As for breaking with tradition, it's already 'built in' with shu-ra-ri.

Jakob

[The great I AM]

I agree with Jakob and Neil here. When they show a willingness to turn up, they naturally get better through their own enthusiasm and the practise that they do.

[JSchmidt]

As for breaking with tradition, it's already 'built in' with shu-ra-ri.

Jakob

That should be shu-ha-ri, of course!.

[Lucien]

Another trait is the willingness of students to improve. Here I thinking of the maxim that you should only ever be told something once. Obviously it is very difficult to incorporate something on the first pass, but at least the student should make a sincere effort to do so.

To put it a different way, a Japanese potter was explaining his art of a westerner. He said there was no mysteries, but the student had to be willing to learn. 'No bad teachers' he said. 'Just bad students'

[tantadi]

1st: Perseverance.

You can argue about character, but lack of good technical ability does not mean that people aren't good students. For the most of the kendo population, kendo isn't about getting to point A, it's about the journey. Granted, we got certain expectations and goals, often followed by an idea of how long it should take to get there (at least the nearest couple of goals), but it is still the journey that's important.

As for breaking with tradition, it's already 'built in' with shu-ra-ri.

Jakob
Idealistically speaking. IMO most people have either rank and/or competition success as their main goal.

[mingshi]

The ability to drink lots :devious: ...

[dotnet]

Just show up regularily. Experience has shown me it's a trait that 99% of kendo students don't have.

This is absolutely correct. By mentioning perseverence I had this in mind as well. Other manifestations could be not giving up in keiko.

This is something fundamental. Without training there will be no development. But what about the attitude during keiko. Should you think about what your sensei said (refelect) or should you simply do it without reflection ? I.E. is this time wasted ?

kyu = no reflection ?
> 1. dan = some reflection ?


You can argue about character, but lack of good technical ability does not mean that people aren't good students.

When I was talking about technical abilities I only meant this as a goal. What traits do you need to attain excellent technical skills. I believe as a basis good technique is simply necessary and should be set as one of a few goals.


As for breaking with tradition, it's already 'built in' with shu-ha-ri.

I haven't heard this term before. I just read about it right now (google) but it this was exactly what I was aiming at. I still need to think a bit about the Shu-ha part to make my questions more precise but thanks for the term !

Cheers,
dotnet

[dotnet]

I'm not sure does this make any sense to you

It makes perfect sense !


Sometimes due to certain circumstances I even went to class late (but not practicing), and sit one side to observe.

Are you not allowed to join class when you are late? I understand that it is disrespectful when you are late even though you could have made it in time but if your work prohibits you from being on time isn't it alright to simply join class without disturbing it during your warm-up ?


I'll still show up when I can't practice, for example, injured. I simply went to the beginners class. Basics are always good :D.

Once an injury prohibited my from training. By chance, I had the key to our dojo (gym in a public school) so I had to show up anyway. Observing class was actually quite interesting.

Cheers,
dotnet

[hyuna]

Isn't the ideal student the one who listens and reflects but secretly questions the senseis advice
I think "questioning" is the same as "reflecting" in the way you are using these words. When you question the surface meaning and look deeper, that is reflection.

This is not the same as rebeliousness or lack of respect. If you respect your teacher, you know that even in their trivial statements lies deep truth that needs to be sought out. So one questions everything out of respect.

But there are some things that should not be questioned at some given stage of development. Of course, questioning those things is rebelious. Perhaps counterproductive.

What is honest and sincere in these circumstances is to follow what you are taught. If you are to follow your teacher's teachings, you must understand them. Striving to understand them is not dishonest or insincere. What is dishonest is to take those teachings, misinterpret them, and to practice and teach a distortion in their place. Therefore, it is critical to be sure to understand as fully as you are capable -- neither seeking a deeper meaning than you are ready for nor being satisfied with a meaning that is more shallow than what you are capable of. It is the same as with keiko; it is not productive to practice waza that are beyond your ability to execute, and it is not productive to practice waza that are trivial for you.

What makes a ideal student in kendo is no different from what makes an ideal student in anything. In my opinion, it is nothing more than a pure and egoless dedication to the subject.

[Old Warrior]

In my opinion, it is nothing more than a pure and egoless dedication to the subject.

The largest wall hanging in our dojang has 2 large characters. I recently asked what they mean because I was photgraphed standing in front of it. I was told they were "Moo Ahn" which roughly translates to "a state of absence of ego". Apparently, someone else had your same thought in my "neck of the woods".

[samurai999]

The ability to drink lots :devious: ...

YES!!!!

Seriously tho.. I think one big component of kendo is diligence. Another is attentiveness (willingness to learn). The last is patience.

Tim

[samurai999]

Idealistically speaking. IMO most people have either rank and/or competition success as their main goal.

And those people usually don't get too far... Therefore the high dropout rate.

Tim

[Charuzu]

One thing that seems popular with the hachidan are viewing the matches as just practice like (for example) suburi, ect.

But then again, since I am new, so feel free to dis-regard my comments.

< (_ _) >

[A.Zee]

The ability to drink lots :devious: ...

THAT, can also be trained if you show up regularly... :)

[Kapplow]

its good to be humble too.

I also try to keep in mind that I learn far more about myself from failure than I do from success. I dont like to lose, and nor do I ever strive to lose, but when I do lose, I know exactly why and what to do to correct myself.

[yohed55]

my sempai explained it to me like this


"learning kendo is like going from point A to point B by going halfway each time, at first you take big steps but later you take little steps, and you never reach point B (perfection)"

i don't know how this helps, but i keep thinking about it, i am going crazy because my dojo wasn't open monday (kendo night) so i have to wait until thursday.

[dotnet]

"learning kendo is like going from point A to point B by going halfway each time, at first you take big steps but later you take little steps, and you never reach point B (perfection)"

This remindes me of Achilles and the tortoise in Zeno's paradox. Has anyone read "Gödel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid" by Douglas Hofstadter ? I had to restart twice and I am still not finished :confused2

Cheers,
dotnet

[dotnet]

I think "questioning" is the same as "reflecting" in the way you are using these words. When you question the surface meaning and look deeper, that is reflection.

Correct. Essentialy I only mean reflection.


Therefore, it is critical to be sure to understand as fully as you are capable -- neither seeking a deeper meaning than you are ready for nor being satisfied with a meaning that is more shallow than what you are capable of.

Either way you look at it. Simple things are complicated and complicated things are simple. Once you have realised this you have short break - only to realise that simple things are indeed simple. That's why I believe it is sometimes not good to ponder too long on a problem - on the other hand I believe it is important to reflect.

However you want to put. To me it remains a paradox. There is not precise answer - or I have simply not understood it :confused:. I probably have to find a healthy balance.


What makes a ideal student in kendo is no different from what makes an ideal student in anything. In my opinion, it is nothing more than a pure and egoless dedication to the subject.

egoless dedication .... I wish this thought would cross more peoples minds.
A thought on this trait: Isn't egolessness a manifestation of one's ego to be egoless. Is selflessness and altruism 'better' than egosim ? In both cases your simply follow your interests and aims.

Arghh .... my mind is too clouded ! I need some keiko ! Afterwards I always fell much better.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Cheers,
dotnet

[ben]

If you think tennis is good for those reasons, you should play table tennis. Faster than a cheetah with a molotov up its behind...

Straying a bit OT for a moment...I agree tabletennis is good for reflexes but tennis is a great one because it requires so much footwork. You have to move your body to where the ball is first, then you can hit it. TT uses a lot of lunging AFAIK, which in kendo would equate with poor posture. I've raved before on this forum about Agassi's tennis. His use of his feet is sublime. He always seems to be in position before the ball gets there so that he can return the ball with ease and not be at full stretch. I would say he nearly always hits from his hara. Of course he's in his autumn years now...

Yes, perseverance. "Knocked down seven times, get up eight."

After perseverance, humility. With humility you can learn from others, especially your opponents. Without it you think you already have all the answers.

After humility naturally comes gratitude, for just being able to do kendo, and for all the people inside and outside the dojo that allow that to happen.

b

[tantadi]

And those people usually don't get too far... Therefore the high dropout rate.

Tim
Don't agree; attaining rank in kendo is easier than in most other martial arts. Competition success might not be that easy, but the opportunity to compete is good. IMo the dropout rate has mostly to do with unrealistic expectations.

[Miravil]

Are you not allowed to join class when you are late? I understand that it is disrespectful when you are late even though you could have made it in time but if your work prohibits you from being on time isn't it alright to simply join class without disturbing it during your warm-up ?

Sometimes when I have enough time, I'll quickly change and join in the class. But sometimes I arrive really late and it is no point changing since I won't be having enough time to line up for keiko after changing and warming up. That is when I'll just sit one side and observe.


I simply went to the beginners class. Basics are always good :D.

My injuries are usually my feet or legs, basic class is always full and with lots of moving around. I still prefer to observe at the corner. I noticed that I can learn some things that I don't learn from my own practice. :)

[Miravil]

its good to be humble too.

I strongly agree :smiley:

[Flylkorean]

Miravil are you a girl ? sorry if this is rude .

[samurai999]

Don't agree; attaining rank in kendo is easier than in most other martial arts. Competition success might not be that easy, but the opportunity to compete is good. IMo the dropout rate has mostly to do with unrealistic expectations.


Yes, it is true that unrealistic expectations and visions of grandeur lead people to practice kendo thinking "i'm gonna learn hiten mitsurugi ryu" or "i can practice forms against a sunset backdrop" like in Last Samurai, but competing and winning is a very serious thing amongst a handful of california kenshi...

As for competition, there are ppl who take it much too seriously. Its like it almost consumes them.... I really never wanted to get better to win at competitions and have it end there... Of course we all like to win and we train hard to win, but the question is... how much? Some people just quit because they just don't see anything other than winning and when that stops, they quit...

You might be right on the percentage that "quit due to" though..

Tim



Tim

[rainmaker]

Go back to original question, he/she should be a geek. Someone who can criticize StarWars and pinpoint about poor Kamae of "Tom Cruise and Uma Thurman". As Neil sensei said, consistance and patience are required.

Have you noticed that most of Kendokas are geeks....

[Lucien]

Have you noticed that most of Kendokas are geeks....

Speak for yourself!

[Bingstock]

Correct. Essentialy I only mean reflection.

egoless dedication .... I wish this thought would cross more peoples minds.
A thought on this trait: Isn't egolessness a manifestation of one's ego to be egoless. Is selflessness and altruism 'better' than egosim ? In both cases your simply follow your interests and aims.

Cheers,
dotnet
I think you are right. Its a choice of being respectful or following your instinct. I would rather be respectful, because other people have taken the time to come teach you. thats just me.

[rainmaker]

Come on admit it. You are geek too.... No matter how you deny you are one of us... Welcome to family... ha ha~~




Speak for yourself!

[DarQik]

Have you noticed that most of Kendokas are geeks....I prefer to think of the kendokas I've met as mostly quality people with dedication, an interest in other cultures, and a willingness to succeed through hard work, perserverance and discipline.

My wife says we're all geeks though.

Of course, she already knew I was!

GCS/CM/B/TW/O/PA d++ s+:+ a C+++$ UBLS+++ P++ L++ E--- W+++ N+@ !o !K w++++$ O !M V PS+ PE Y++ PGP++ t++@ 5++@ X+++@ R+(-) tv b+ DI+++ D+++ G++ e++ h---- r+++ y++++

[rainmaker]

You just wrote Geek code, dedication(nothing else todo), interested in other cultures(including Klingons, Naboo), hardwork (yup geeks!), perserverance(see you are using geek vocabulary, instead of patience), discipline(only geeks, Jedi and Navy Seals have discipline)...

The first step is to admit to yourself your geekiness. No matter what anyone says, geeks are people too; geeks have rights. Geeks are noble human being. So take a deep breath and announce to the world that you are a geek. Your courage will give you strength that will last you forever.

I am Geeks !!!!




I prefer to think of the kendokas I've met as mostly quality people with dedication, an interest in other cultures, and a willingness to succeed through hard work, perserverance and discipline.

My wife says we're all geeks though.

Of course, she already knew I was!

GCS/CM/B/TW/O/PA d++ s+:+ a C+++$ UBLS+++ P++ L++ E--- W+++ N+@ !o !K w++++$ O !M V PS+ PE Y++ PGP++ t++@ 5++@ X+++@ R+(-) tv b+ DI+++ D+++ G++ e++ h---- r+++ y++++

[Neil Gendzwill]

Have you noticed that most of Kendokas are geeks....
Most of everybody who participates in online discussion are geeks. Access to computers and all... My sensei has occasionally marvelled on how educated the kendo population is here, though. I'd say that most of our club is college-educated, or in the process thereof. He says that in Japan kendo attracts a much more normal cross-section of people, even trending the other way, because it's regarded as normal sports whereas here it's regarded as exotic.

[samurai999]

GCS/CM/B/TW/O/PA d++ s+:+ a C+++$ UBLS+++ P++ L++ E--- W+++ N+@ !o !K w++++$ O !M V PS+ PE Y++ PGP++ t++@ 5++@ X+++@ R+(-) tv b+ DI+++ D+++ G++ e++ h---- r+++ y++++

I guess im not one since i haven't the slightest clue what the heck you are typing here....

Tim

[rainmaker]

It is geek code... oh, my God, I know all these code. What I have I become? arrrrrrrrrrrrrr I am a geek....noooooooooooooooo

GCS: Geek of Computer Science
CM: Computer management
GB: Geek of Business
TW: Technical Writing
O: Geek of others
PA: Geek of performing arts
d++: I tend to wear conservative dress such as a business suit or worse, a tie.
S+:+ : I'm a little taller/rounder than most.
C++++ I'll be first in line to get the new cybernetic interface installed into my skull. W+++ I am a WebMaster . Don't even think about trying to view my homepage without the latest version of Netscape. When I'm not on my normal net connection, I surf the web using my Newton and a cellular modem.



I prefer to think of the kendokas I've met as mostly quality people with dedication, an interest in other cultures, and a willingness to succeed through hard work, perserverance and discipline.

My wife says we're all geeks though.

Of course, she already knew I was!

GCS/CM/B/TW/O/PA d++ s+:+ a C+++$ UBLS+++ P++ L++ E--- W+++ N+@ !o !K w++++$ O !M V PS+ PE Y++ PGP++ t++@ 5++@ X+++@ R+(-) tv b+ DI+++ D+++ G++ e++ h---- r+++ y++++

[DarQik]

It is geek code... oh, my God, I know all these code. What I have I become? arrrrrrrrrrrrrr I am a geek....nooooooooooooooooWhat's worse is that I can remember when it was first discussed and codified... ;)

Fully agree with Mr. Gendzwill again, here kendo is very exotic and odd--definitely not mainstream... I won't fully repeat what I heard the basketball players saying as we took over the gym last week, but it did include "stupidest thing I've ever seen."


As to the original question, I would guess that respect, perserverance, and a willingness to learn are the important things. Much of the social customs can seem bizarre, as is the language. That alone can be overwhelming.

Perserverance will decide the matter though. Results don't come easy, and there can be lots of adversity to overcome--social, mental, and physical. It can really be tempting to quit than to keep struggling to improve. (Again some of us *cough* tend to be used to extra, um, adversity...)

[JSchmidt]

but it did include "stupidest thing I've ever seen."



Well, we do run around in blue skirts, scream our lungs out,whack eachother with 4-foot sticks and then proceed to thank eachother.

Jakob

[Inouye02]

"stupidest thing I've ever seen."


well 10 guys running around trying to throw a ball in a little hoop would seem stupid to others also ..

[samurai999]

well 10 guys running around trying to throw a ball in a little hoop would seem stupid to others also ..

Ya and some pros still can't get 60% from the FT line.

Tim

[kanyil]

Just show up regularily. Experience has shown me it's a trait that 99% of kendo students don't have.

sigh, very true. I use to be annoyed when talented kohais fail to show up, but now I found I am unable to make it to all the sessions due to work commitments. sigh.

[Kmav]

One of the most important traits of a good kendoka is persistence. You have to keep trying.... Also, it helps if you dream of kendo at night :p