What kind of Kendo do you do? [Archive]

kendomushi

13th March 2003, 08:59 AM

Budo.
But if one embraces the budo aspect, then are you not also prepared to be a warrior in many ways? This assumes not limiting the concept of war to a physical combat, but looking in the sense that much of life consists of confrontation and to overcome, succeed, be victorious, we must approach the confrontation as a warrior ready, confident, sure of yourself and with a desire to achieve your ends.

Critical_Bill

13th March 2003, 09:22 AM

budo
is ther any other way? heheh :)

Karaken

13th March 2003, 10:20 AM

Health Club ( Leisure + Fun )- you don't have category for that?

But I'm getting a bit too serious for that lately..

Centttttttttttter

KhawMengLee

13th March 2003, 12:30 PM

yes....Bud-do....the sport of beers

Marco

13th March 2003, 01:45 PM

All answers are fine as I see kendo to be part of the personality of the kendoka. But could you vote for -Budo Kendo- if you only practice once a week? Or could you vote -Warrior- if you are practicing kendo for a short time?

emitbrownne

13th March 2003, 05:30 PM

Budo
If Kendo was a sport, it would lose most of its character like European fencing has. (no offence meant to some Salles because some are encouraging the original traditions again).

Warrior??..... I train to fight with a mindset of defeating my opponent... and not for points.... does that fit me into the Warrior category?

nodachi

13th March 2003, 07:21 PM

Hmmm... let me clarify what I was thinking of when I said "I am a warrior."

I do Budo Kendo, take it seriously, treat it with great respect, and focus on all different aspects of it (philosophical, history, good "proper" kendo, winning and losing with honor and humility, sorry if this is vague, etc) and not just the winning and getting points mindset of sport kendo.

Even though I do Budo Kendo, I don't get too bothered when people do crazy/goofy kendo, insist that kendo is only a sport, seek to make it more mainstreamed though possibly by ruining it, losing the cultural roots, ettiquete, proper style or whatever. Not trying to attack anyone or their previous posts, just trying to clarify that a "warrior" type gets really bothered by people who don't take Kendo ultra seriously or disrespect it or do such and such.

I don't know how to clarify where the line is between Budo Kendo and Warrior Kendo, but it is also somewhat subjective and everyone will draw that line in a different place.

I hope I have clarified that at least a little. The vague, gray areas are hard for me to define, but hey... I tried. I would think of a warrior to be on the extremely serious end of things.

qpuppy

13th March 2003, 08:01 PM

I chose Budo... but I also believe I do sports kendo as well...
I might be wrong... but I feel that when I train... our senseis bring the sprite and techniques of budo into sports..... One thing I do admit is that when we have a shiai coming up.. we do concentrate alittle more into sport kendo... but yet still implanting the ways of budo kendo.....

my senpai?.. you thoughts?

cheers

Marine_Boy

13th March 2003, 09:03 PM

I voted for budo, but at I feel that my MA training edges towards the warrior side of things. Not that I am bothered by people who don't take their training ultra seriously or disrespect it. But more like what emitbrown said "I train to fight with a mindset of defeating my opponent... and not for points".

I strongly believe that if we are training in budo or any MA for that matter, we should live our lives in readiness and be prepared for any circumstances. I don't mean to say that we all turn into paranoid freeks:D :paranoid: , but just be alert. I can say that because I've had personal experience of such incidents out on the streets.

Not that I go around looking for fisty cuffs!:ogre:

Stan

nodachi

13th March 2003, 10:44 PM

I think it is still possible to do budo kendo, even when there is a shiai coming up. My sensei set aside more time in practices for practice matches before shiai, but they are still just as picky about good form, good basics, and all that proper kendo stuff. It never degenerates or changes because of shiai. Always budo kendo. No tricks or changes because of shiai. Just the added challenge of doing good kendo with the added pressure of a match.

kendokamax

14th March 2003, 02:34 AM

Kendo points being a very subjective thing.

If your kendo lacks good form and you just try to hit the good targets at the right time etc....you might not get the points counting from the shinpan! So even if you do "sport" kendo, it is still budo.

moocow65

14th March 2003, 03:03 AM

ALL THREE
budo cause i do all the respectful stuff i.e. onegaishimasu, and aisatsu when i come across sensei and i don't fight dirty. i don't think i've pushed anyone out of jogai for the past 5 or 6 years i think.
sport cause i want to win. who wants to be a loser?
warrior well, my take on this one is how motivated and determined you are to become good. warriors gotta train hard or else they're gonna get killed in battle. i train pretty hard to win AND have nice looking kendo, even tho some fools in this forum think nito isn't kendo.

Charlie

14th March 2003, 04:39 AM

Jenny:

Please elaborate! How is it "officially" banned.

I'd say the best case scenario is that your sport kendo is budo kendo. But perhaps you don't "play sports" that way?

ken to kokoro

14th March 2003, 12:19 PM

I feel that i practice zen warrior kendo.

Kendo is much more than a sport and anyone who disagrees i feel is missing something very important.

In the kendo mantra written by toranosuke shimada it says: the sword is one with the mind....he who wishes to study the sword must first study the mind.

to master the sword you must look deep inside of you and find your center and cultivate it. Once you accomplish that-you will be able to do things that you never imagined possible.

the journey of 1000 miles starts in the heart and when you've seen the truth, you'll be changed forever.

And for all sport oriented kendoka, please take no offense, but if you truly just do kendo for these reasons- maybe you should do something totally physical instead -like kickboxing.

Arigatou gozaimashita

kendokamax

14th March 2003, 02:24 PM

hum ya maybe i should take ping pong

Aoi

14th March 2003, 05:37 PM

I prefer budo... Though I do both.
Well overall, my dojo is filled with people who only see "winning" important. I guess it's pretty common.
My little sister told a friend that I do kendo, then that friend replied "Is Aoi a Kendo Champion??". I think this reflects on how the general society looks at most martial arts. If you're a champ, you're good, if you're not, that doesn;t mean much. Of course, winning can be fun, but it doesn't mean that much. What's more important? The respect of your sensei and collegues, or repect from the bunch of non-kendokas who dont have any idea of what kendo is and what it could mean?
Everytime I fight in a shiai, what comes to mind most is to display a kendo, which won't embarrass any of my senpais/kohais and of course, sensei(s) and the people who taught me. Even if you lose, one word from the sensei "you faught very well today" or even from your senpai "damn you've improved", could mean much more than one junky trophy or medal. (though it does make you happy temporarily)

Charlie

14th March 2003, 10:49 PM

Originally posted by ken to kokoro
I feel that i practice zen warrior kendo.

*snip*

And for all sport oriented kendoka, please take no offense, but if you truly just do kendo for these reasons- maybe you should do something totally physical instead -like kickboxing.

Well said, Ken! But I must caution anyone that if your kickboxing is also "just sport," your kickboxing is under-developed.

kendokamax

14th March 2003, 11:34 PM

hey aoi, what you are talking about is true and i have been a bit annoyed by it.

In my first year doing kendo everyone outside kendo were thinking I was a bit nuts going 3 times a week and never missing practice. I was just telling them I was enjoying it very much. But after when I won my first few medal/trophy, people outside kendo I had conversation (about being such a kendo freak and traveling for tournament etc) were way more understanding with me going to practice so many time because I had success in the sport/budo. Seriously at first that shocked me a bit! I mean I wasnt doing it to win, just something I was enjoying.....I dont know but it looks like in our society if you do something seriously without any concrete(?) results (apart from playing cards) it is useless..

One more thing, sometimes when I talk to people that have no real knowledge of kendo they would ask me if I can beat people down or if I have become a zen monk (or something like that)....
to these people I prefer to explain that kendo is a simple sport/activity like any other. not just some ellitist activity...and try to convince them to try or join kendo ...

Old Warrior

15th March 2003, 02:06 AM

I think we learn an interesting mix of all three.

We are always being lectured (in Korean - so it goes over my head until it is translated) about customs and proper behavior. I was even corrected when I reached to accept my promotion certificate with one hand (I was told "2 hands, bow").

Even from a proud Korean Master we always are being exhorted to "Be Samurai". Clearly we are being taught to go about training as if it is more serious than a game. Whining over off target strikes is always the source of the Master's annoyance.

Having said all the above we are forever being corrected over the ki hap, posture after the strike and the need to hit crisply but gently. This is definitely directed at what one needs to succeed in competition.

kendomushi

15th March 2003, 01:57 PM

I my dojo we say that we teach kendo as a military (warrior) discipline, we practice it as budo, and we compete as sport.

Though personally I still feel the budo aspect is what keeps me involved.

I just committed to testing for 4-dan in the autumn this year. Its still six months away and I'm already nervous. Need more keiko...

inner_cent

16th March 2003, 08:41 PM

here is my answer

"............................"

NExt Topic please !!

PS - that was one stupid question for a stupid answer ...........

munenmuso

16th March 2003, 11:03 PM

No, that is not a stupid question. the only stupid question is the one never been asked. In recent threads, there had been debates about the kind of treatment each kendoka reserves for kendo, that is either you practice it as a budo, just a sport, or as a "warrior".Didn't liked the last one, sounds frustrating and corny.

nodachi

17th March 2003, 12:45 AM

I know "warrior" sounds corny, but I am just recycling the terminology used from other threads to describe those super serious people on the forum. The corny title isn't important, just trying to describe that upper serious extreme as simply as possible.

kendokamax

17th March 2003, 04:48 AM

ok...sport kendo is easy to define!

but what is budo kendo ?

aru-ma

17th March 2003, 06:02 AM

budo kendo? you know how they have the argument around whether kendo is a sport or budo (martial arts)? it's pretty much asking if you do kendo as a sport, like greco roman wrestling, pole vault, etc where your main aim is to get points and win competitions (btw this is an arguable point) or if you do kendo as a martial arts like shorinji kenpo, iai do, etc where you aim for self improvement, usually as an person entirely not just in kendo, while winning competitions may be one of the way you can show your improvement thre are other ways you can show it, like I've mentioned before improving as a person as a whole. though at this point I dont know what kind of kendo I do but I'd like to think that I'm doing it as a budo than a sport.

Now that I've said that anyone is welcomed to correct or criticize what I've just said

nodachi

17th March 2003, 01:40 PM

Budo Kendo has a different definition for everyone, little variations here and there, but for me, Budo Kendo has absolutely no concern on winning/losing/points. I see it as constantly striving to improve yourself, improve your kendo, focusing on the ettiquete and philosopical connections that one can make with themselves and their Kendo. Budo kendo has no concern for winning. There can still be a sense of competition, but win or lose doesn't matter. Shiai is merely another place to do Kendo with different people, styles, and put all you know into a do or die situation. Shiai is like trying to apply all those principles you learn at school or college into useful applications in the real world.

kendokamax

17th March 2003, 01:54 PM

ok, alright an other question then:

why would winning/losing would be not important in budo kendo??? I mean when people talk about budo kendo it's always kinda vague....i guess it's hard to define..?

For me my budo kendo would be something like : being able to do men uchi against anyone....

can that be budo kendo?

durrell4

17th March 2003, 02:15 PM

I am not sure that those who practice have to make that choice. Most of the poeple who win the Taikai in my area are the best over all kendo players. Most (with some notable exceptions) have the bset basics. When I hear the Budo sport debate I get confused as to who it is aimed at. the majorty of the "sport only" kendo players are bracket fodder anyway. The best kendo players are the best kenod players period.

aru-ma

17th March 2003, 08:01 PM

I guess defining "budo kendo" is about as easy as defining art, something that everyone have an idea of but cant really explain.

mingshi

17th March 2003, 08:05 PM

Good explanation.

Art for the sake of art.

More self-motivation. Less emphasis on competitiveness/market/audience.

kendokamax

17th March 2003, 11:36 PM

ya that makes sense

Neil Gendzwill

18th March 2003, 12:32 AM

Ask yourself this question: if I could never enter another tournament in my life, would I continue with kendo? If the answer is yes, you're probably approaching kendo from a budo point of view.

alexpollijr

18th March 2003, 12:44 AM

Perfectly put.

kendokamax

18th March 2003, 01:00 AM

ya it make sense but,

I play badminton once per week and i dont participate to any tournament. Is that budo badminton?

haha playing with words eh?

I think I would continue to play kendo even if we didnt have any tournament, but actually it's a very tough call...we will see in 20 years haha

Sinta

18th March 2003, 01:30 AM

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill
Ask yourself this question: if I could never enter another tournament in my life, would I continue with kendo? If the answer is yes, you're probably approaching kendo from a budo point of view.

I think you hit it right. My answer would be "yes" i would still continue. That affirms my budo kendo :)

That or it just proves that I'm a coward. j/k :D

Will

18th March 2003, 02:16 PM

Everyone who picks budo kendo probably doesn't win in the touranments is why they choose budo over sport...it's an excuse! :p

Just poking fun, don't take me seriously....

And if people get offended and complain, apparently you did take me seriously...even though i said not to...

Charlie

19th March 2003, 05:11 AM

Sure, it's budo badminton. Why not? Or, to be technical, no it's not "budo" badminton, but it's definitely an "art for art's sake."

AlexM

19th March 2003, 02:05 PM

I don't think "budo" and "sport" are mutually exclusive.

If I said I practice kendo to improve my physical health and to compete would that mean that I practice "sport kendo"? But are competing and improving one's health contrary to budo? Aren't they in a sense central to budo (name a martial art that believes it's practitioners should be coach potatoes)?

If I said I practice kendo to improve myself as a person and to improve my discipline does that mean that I do "budo kendo"? Yet isn't this really the goal of any "sport"? Since in the end any sport is essentially meaningless (what's the point of puting the ball through the hoop in basketball for instance? why is it worth 2 or 3 points? It's a totally abstract (and absurd) concept). Practicing a sport (at least as an amateur) only makes sense if you strive to develop yourself (not only in a physical sense). That you try to better your own discipline as well.

I haven't answered the poll because I have no idea what either option means (and I'm starting to believe that the distinction is meaningless). I think kendo is budo (no doubt in my mind) but I'm not sure I'd continue with it if I couldn't compete once in while (does this mean I think it's a sport? In fact I'm starting to believe that all sport can be "budo like" if approached properly). Competition seems central to budo. It's all very nice to compete against oneself but competing against others helps us understand how to improve ourselves, no?

So what the hell is the difference between budo and sport??? I have no idea myself.... All I can do is paraphrase Alexander Wendt (if you know who this guy is you're an IR wonk.. and you also know what that means): Kendo is what we make of it.

Feel free to flame.

munenmuso

19th March 2003, 05:17 PM

Well, budo nowadays is just an internalization for kendo in order to gain purposive or internal benefits on a personal approach, an introspect. But mainly, I practice sports kendo because of its competetive essence and from the physical benefits I get from it. But I am not a warrior in a warring state nor in a condition to practice kendo as a budo for self preservation or cultivation, yet due to kendo's martial history I always honor the budo material in kendo. So externally, kendo can be practiced as a sport but at the same time the way it is internalized is in a budo manner. It is almost impossible to seclude the budo in it despite the fact that kendo is being practiced as an international sport. Remember how the Japanese revived kendo utmostly as a budo during WWII, there was an emergence of the art as the martial way, a tool to effectively engage the enemy in combat. The budo spirit was once vigoriously alive until the war was over and the budo kendo propagated outside Japan as a sports kendo. So now, budo and its sporting aspect are intertwined to achieve the same goal:To seek the warrior within.:)

KATSUJIN

19th March 2003, 11:08 PM

Well...for me I donno wat I am doing...in my mind, kendo is very serious for me. But my fighting style on the physical side seems to be sports kendo style. So, which do I follow? the physical, the mental....or both?

nodachi

20th March 2003, 11:30 AM

I think that people can change gears between sports kendo mindset and budo mindset. However, if you lack the budo mindset completely, have no concern or interest in it, then you do sports kendo.

Different mindsets for different situations, but which mindset do you like or follow the most?

And if you say 50-50, then I don't know what to say... :)

misterkurukuru

23rd March 2003, 04:12 PM

to go up in rank( 4 dan and above not freaken 3 kyu) and still be able to win in tournaments, you must be able to change gears (sports/budo) pretty quickly. I know guys that have the nicest form, but they will never be able to beat anybody; kinda like a batter with a perfect swing, but they cant make contact. Or i know people that are crafty fighters, but they couldnt hit an open kote or men if thier life depended on it. ME??? i just work people at what ever they are good at, if you fight ugly, i will beat you with ugly kendo. If you fight clean, i will crack you with the straightest men you have ever felt. its fun to beat people at what they think they are good at! BUt Nodachi is right, you cant just ignore the budo side of kendo and hope you will get better.

m_french

29th March 2003, 12:53 AM

Kurukuru-san, spoken like a true warrior!

Tenken

30th March 2003, 02:54 PM

I do sports kendo. y? because I want to win. If I do budo kendo or that other one, it will be too difficult to compete and win. Yes, sports kendo is kinda ugly. But to win, this must be the easiest way. For those people who does Budo kendo and "I am a warrior" kendo, have you ever won tournaments? I'm not saying its wrong or anything, just that, one will never be the strongest guy in tournaments by doing that.

Raígma

30th March 2003, 05:45 PM

Some of you guys should actually realize that winning is not necessary to have success.

Of course it is a great feeling. I haven´t been to a tournament, yet so I don´t know if I will win with the attitude of mine.
It´s rather difficult to say that I am a warrior in such an early state but I follow the principles of a true warrior.
(No they are not written down anywhere, you have to find them yourself. They are scattered all over the world.)
Not only in kendo training, also in the real life. Anytime I will compete like that and I will win.

It´s mainly the same like the thread about physical strenght here.
If you want to do sports-kendo, if you want to build your body with additional programs do so. Noone will stop you and I don´t say its bad. It´s your way.
But you shouldn´t try to convince that your way is the only possibility to win.
That´s what Kendo says isn´t it? Way Of Sword?
Find your own way. Your own. You will have to abandon
some of those human complexes. Not easy but necessary.

It´s just more than beating the crap out of someone and saying "I´m the greatest."
Though Kendo follows the same Waza everywhere, every teacher teaches them another way. Every person executing them does it in another way. If you prefer strenght or fluidity is your choice.
If you bring it in harmony with yourself it will work.

Maybe some of you should think of the phsycological way of fighting. You may win without being stronger and faster. Just with timing and your appearance (no not your haircut), the influence
your mind has on the opponent. Many things just come out of
attitude and believe me. "I will win, I am the best." will not work.

Enough words.
Find your own way.

misterkurukuru

31st March 2003, 02:18 AM

You dont have to win, but if you cant even get a point during shiai, how good is your kendo? if you are a batting cage kenshi, and hitting open mens and kotes 5 days a week is fun for you thats great. But if you can hit randy johnson's fast ball, or if you can strike out barry bonds...i think it is much more fun then tee ball. Oh and i am not saying that sports kendo is the greatest, or Budo kendo is the greatest.

Inouye02

31st March 2003, 02:34 AM

i have heard that winning is not important, but then i have seen some sensei's get upset , bad mouth their student for not winning a match, coming in 2nd is still losing , does a kenshi real good to hear that .

munenmuso

31st March 2003, 07:33 PM

Winning is important and so is losing. You don't strive for something just to lose, winning is always the objective. But if it isn't always the option or the outcome, acceptance of losing is the first means of winning and its not just simple sour-graping and we learn better once we lose. In a month, I lose all my weekly shiai before I won the monthly tourney and everytime I lose I never lose the lessons.

samurai999

1st April 2003, 06:33 AM

Just had to chime in here. I look at losing like this. I'll take my lickings as they come if the other person truly had the advantage over me and bowled me over. But on the other hand, I get a little upset if I lose to somebody I know I should've beaten. Either way, anybody knows that if you lose, you need more practice. :D

Whenever we're at a tourney, and we're at our "rally circle", our sensei always tells us that we're not there at a tourney to lose (who is?!) ! But, win or lose, try your best. Thats all I need to hear.

Tim

m_french

1st April 2003, 09:43 AM

gotta love that Hashimotto Sensei, but Tim I don't remember you losing all that often.:beard:

bronxjragon

1st April 2003, 01:12 PM

None.
I do unorthodox to make all the senseis mad at my foolishness.

Chusan

2nd April 2003, 02:08 AM

I cannot answer that question.
Maybe sports? Seems reasonable, since I`m a sports-teacher and my training is based upon sports-science (medicine, psychology, and so on) so it is quite modern and somewhat different from most common-style kendo-routines.
Maybe budo? Seems reasonable, too, since I do not concentrate an winning, but on gaining personal benefits from training, both mentally and physical. I try to teach a Kendo that will be a life-time-sport for my disciples.
Maybe warrior? Also reasonable. Kendo is one part of my lifestyle being based upon the study of swordsmanship, thus practising several styles of swordsmanship, from western fencing to Iaido, including quite strange systems like SCA-heavy-weapon-combat and lots of more.
I don`t know...

Kendoboy

2nd April 2003, 05:27 AM

I picked budo, because kendo IMHO is something where you always strive to improve upon your personal skill level, not just win tourneys.

Originally posted by Tenken
I do sports kendo. y? because I want to win. If I do budo kendo or that other one, it will be too difficult to compete and win. Yes, sports kendo is kinda ugly. But to win, this must be the easiest way. For those people who does Budo kendo and "I am a warrior" kendo, have you ever won tournaments? I'm not saying its wrong or anything, just that, one will never be the strongest guy in tournaments by doing that.

I have to dissagree with this, because you just don't see any hachidans who do "sport kendo", yet I am pretty sure that if most of us went into shiai vs. a hachidan, we would loose. I think this is because kendo for them, and many other good kendoka is meant to be a perfect union of mind, body, and sword; all moving as one, and all in complete control. In shiai, whoever wins (IMHO) is ALWAYS the kendoka who's union is more perfect. I saw an example of this at the mumeishi tournament in London last fall when one teamm was quite fast, but not very mentally aware of their kendo. They threw hissy fits when they lost, whacked their shinai on the ground, and were generally disrespectful (:(Please DON'T mistake this as me slagging off those who picked sport, or saying that disrespectful behaviour in the dojo and sport kendo go hand in hand). Their opponents, who might not have been as fast, came in and OWNED them with calm, clean kendo.

I think that this comment (Tenken's) is also the main difference between sport and budo kendo; sport seeks the easy way out to get a win, whereas budo strives to put more essence into kendo.

:D I know this borders on the sport or budo arguement, but try to restrain yourselves!

Neil Gendzwill

2nd April 2003, 05:48 AM

Originally posted by Kendoboy
They threw hissy fits when they lost, whacked their shinai on the ground, and were generally disrespectful
That sort of thing is normally grounds for team disqualification.

Karaken

2nd April 2003, 06:23 AM

Originally posted by Kendoboy
sport seeks the easy way out to get a win, whereas budo strives to put more essence into kendo.

I'd like to rephrase this one.. Sport seeks hard way to train mind and body too but when it comes to tournament, it seeks any other way as well to get a win. Budo, in my mind is to face your tourny as you're training.
As my sensei used to tell me "No Tricks"...That's budo kendo.

Center Kendo is Budo..

m_french

2nd April 2003, 08:10 AM

Originally posted by Kendoboy

I think that this comment (Tenken's) is also the main difference between sport and budo kendo; sport seeks the easy way out to get a win, whereas budo strives to put more essence into kendo.

:

Simple fact is if you have ever watched tenken in a tourney, it's his speed that makes it easy the kendo is pure!:beard:

titus

2nd April 2003, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill

That sort of thing is normally grounds for team disqualification.

I've noticed people get away with that kind of behaviour in fencing as well, and it's usually because the referees and/or their opponents are too embarassed by the display to ask them to stop. Personally I'd make sure they were ejected immediately, but you'd be surprised by how many people just want to appease them so they'll be quiet and stop making a scene.

JSchmidt

2nd April 2003, 10:03 AM

"That sort of thing is normally grounds for team disqualification."

Nah, it wasn't quite that bad and most of the display of frustration took place off the shiai-jo.

Jakob

misterkurukuru

2nd April 2003, 04:29 PM

8 dan senseis do sports kendo sometimes and they win. just because you are 8 dan doesnot mean you dont do sports kendo. It just means that you know when to use it. Some judges shouldnt judge because they dont want to kick people out of tournaments.....are they judges that shoudlnt judge?

Kendoboy

3rd April 2003, 03:15 AM

I think that the kendo 8th dans do might be smaller cuts, but their form, technique, and experience make them more powerful (or just as powerful) as a bigger cut. I think that sort of commitment requires more mental strength and determination than "cool, I got 3 points"

:D But, just to play devil's advocate.......

Originally posted by Karaken

I'd like to rephrase this one.. Sport seeks hard way to train mind and body too but when it comes to tournament, it seeks any other way as well to get a win. Budo, in my mind is to face your tourny as you're training.
As my sensei used to tell me "No Tricks"...That's budo kendo.

Center Kendo is Budo..

In an actual battle between samurai, wouldn't they "seek any other way as well to get a win"? So by this definition, doesn't that make sport kendo more budo?

Karaken

3rd April 2003, 07:49 AM

Kendoboy, they might have followed Bushido to get rid of fear of dying but I probably won't care much about what budo/bushido represents when my life is on the line.
Having said that there are many examples of Samurai stories showing that they'd rather die honorably than be shamed by using dirty tricks despised by others.

Tricks might be survival or sport but it's not not budo..

Center is budo..

misterkurukuru

3rd April 2003, 11:06 AM

miyamoto musashi knew he couldnt beat kojiro so he cheated....was that following budo??? Kojiro was going to work musashi...he did not want to die, so he cheated...kojiro went to go fight a person doinf nito, not a person with a big stick!
Musashi used a dirty trick.

munenmuso

3rd April 2003, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by misterkurukuru
miyamoto musashi knew he couldnt beat kojiro so he cheated....was that following budo??? Kojiro was going to work musashi...he did not want to die, so he cheated...kojiro went to go fight a person doinf nito, not a person with a big stick!
Musashi used a dirty trick.

Can you please elaborate more on this Misterkurukuru. AFAIK, Musashi utilized the two swords against his opponents only after the more than 60 duels he encountered and that is to say Kojiro had been long dead even before he developed it. The first public appearance of his Enmyo style(nito) was when he was already under Lord Hosokawa as the headmaster of his dojo when a young brash upstart challenged him with his crimson sword and Musashi easily defeated him with two bokken.That is the time when his shugyosha days were over. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Karaken

3rd April 2003, 11:24 PM

Even after reading so many books on Samurai and ancient Japanese stories, one thin still not clear to me is how to distinguish clever and admirable tactics from dirty tricks. It's as if anything used by honorable guy goes but anything done by a guy with bad reputation is a dirty trick..

Manybe it's the ultimate Japanese thing - the final chapter.

Center has no tricks