Geiko vs Shiai

[Nico]

Hello,
i ve made my first shiai last week (after just pass my shodan) in Canterburry for the University Taikai, i was very impress to see how shiai is different from geiko and how it could be different from the learning of kendo i suppose, because i think some club promote competition and inverse. How to find the equilibirum between learning kendo/ competition kendo ?

See yu

Nico :confused:

[Kendoka]

Whats the question?

[Neil Gendzwill]

I believe the question is how do you balance the (hopefully) proper kendo you learn in the dojo with the ducking, twisting, crap kendo you often see in tournaments. The stock answer is, do the kendo you are taught. Eventually it will get you the wins. However that's a bit naive. There are certain skills that apply to the shiai situation that aren't normally practiced, and if you can find a good coach you can learn how to be smart in shiai without compromising your kendo too much.

[Nico]

Excuse my French but that s it how to find the good balance between shai and proper kendo..

[kendo_chick]

I agree, there is definatley a fine line between the "tricks" that you often see in Shiai and the ducking and weaving that constitues "bad" kendo in geiko practise. However, as Neil pointed out, if you do the practise style kendo that the sensei teach you, you should win matches. Of course, that doesn't always work, and it's obviously not a perfect world so everyone alters their kendo a little when in a shiai style match.

In our club, we try to incorporate shiai style matches into our regular practise just so that we can try and keep our shiai kendo as close as possible to our geiko kendo. We focus on keeping ourselves straight and focused on technique as well as going for points. It's proved to work quite well when in shiai situations as we are not altering our styles for shiai because shiai is what we practise. It keeps our focus and tends to make our shiai kendo straighter and not so much of the "ducking, twisting, crap kendo you often see in tournaments".

Hope that helps.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Shiai training once in a while is good. You need to know how to conduct yourself generally (bowing, entering, dealing with the judges commands), how to handle the boundaries of the shiai-jo, what makes a good point, how to "sell" a point, what to do if you drop your shinai or fall, when to be aggressive and when to back off, team strategies, etc. All these things aren't considered in your normal practice and don't require you to change your fundamental kendo but are good to know for the tournament situation.

[Charlie]

I think you'll notice that the "twisty crap" might win some matches, particularly at the yudansha and shodan-nidan levels, but clean kendo will usually carry the day among the more advanced players.

[Nico]

I have to speak about it with my teacher tonight but i think i will enjoy shiai just for experience for the moment and try to improve my new shodan.
Thank yu
Nico

[Steve]

I will (obviously) agree with Kendo_Chick on this one. Practicing nice clean geiko as well as shiai-geiko frequently together helps (IMO) to keep the "two styles" of Kendo as close to one another as possible. I think so many people change between "geiko kendo" and "shiai kendo" out of nervousness or a fear of being hit/losing. If you can keep your "shiai kendo" the same as that of your "geiko kendo" it will help defeat "shiai nerves". You'll be doing something that you are completely comfortable with. Secondly, most kendoka can demonstrate the ever desired fearless, aggressive initiation of attacks during geiko as there is no fear of winning/losing in that situation but in shiai that ability seems go away completely. It is that ability that will usually tip the balance in your favour during shiai. End result, if you can duplicate your geiko mindset and ability during shiai you'll have the advantage. Now if only it were as easy to DO that as it is to say it......

[kendokamax]

I dont agree,
I think it's bad to try to have the same set of mind of shiai in jigeiko. It's ok to take points in jigeiko. In my oppinion it's the most important acpect in jigeiko is to be able to give and take points....also try new things....and during shiai you will always be nervous if you are not used to do shiai.....it's just 2 different things.

[mingshi]

Originally posted by kendokamax
I dont agree,
I think it's bad to try to have the same set of mind of shiai in jigeiko.

??? :confused:

Aren't you supposed to be practicing all sorts of techiques in Jikeiko and apply your best ones in Shiai?

If not what are you training for in Jikeiko?

[kendokamax]

ya of course you have to use jigeiko as an exercice for improving technique so your shiai would become better. But I think if you take it with the same set of mind you will start doing bad things like blocking too much etc because you dont want to lose. Blocking in shiai can be good but if you start blocking too much during jigeiko your kendo will get lazy !!! like mine :|

lazy kendo works but at the beginning I think I need to improve my basic hits more. shaping up my kendo..

lol such bs.....

I better go to kendo practice and just shut my mouth.

btw mingshi I tried naginata it was interesting!

[mingshi]

Originally posted by kendokamax
But I think if you take it with the same set of mind you will start doing bad things like blocking too much etc because you dont want to lose. Blocking in shiai can be good but if you start blocking too much during jigeiko your kendo will get lazy !!!

No. I am talking about the opposite. Not putting Shiai into Keiko, but Keiko into Shiai.

As a matter of fact, I was never taught to block at all. I don't techinically know how to block, so I cannot use blocking during Shiai. (:rolleyes: Er, umm... No, this is not why I lost!!)

[MaxPayneWayne]

if you do your keiko kendo in a shiai, you'll lose. keiko translated means practice. you practice your waza and see if they work or not. you're not supposed to care if you get hit, you just experiment and try different waza you think you need to practice on. you can test certain things such as your seme, ooji waza, debana waza, and practice them until you can use them effectively. in a shiai you're supposed to do the things you can do effectively. if you've become pretty good at sashi men, then a majority of your attacks might be sashi men. why would you try to do a kaishi do in a shiai when you've never tried it in keiko? you'll probably get hit in the men and lose.

[Ares2907]

I believe that Mingshi is talking more about the mindset one carries into keiko rather than the things one tries in keiko. The mental tension and pressure that one often puts on oneself prior to/during a shiai is generally absent. It leaves you clear to focus on simply doing your own kendo.
Personally I think the major differences between shiai and keiko kendo are mostly the sort of things you want to eliminate.
self-pressure, tenseness etc in shiai, potential lack of intensity or connection with one's aite in keiko (these are hundreds more examples to choose from, these are but a few).

If you can take the intensity that you do shiai back into your keiko, and the clarity of mind into your shiai (again examples, and not exclusive), then your kendo cannot help but become stronger.


Incidentally blocking is a poor option no matter where you try it imnsho. If you have time to block, you have time to counter. If you don't, then it's not blocking you need to be working on.

[munenmuso]

In shiai, there is always the fear of your opponent getting a score so you are constantly dodgy and mindful of being defensive rather than the offensive. Some things you learn in keiko, out of fear being hit, are subconciously put aside like allowing and/or accepting your opponent's hits if its actually inevitable.My sensei taught me to stay steady even if the opponent might hit me rather than sway away from left to right and lose the center line. As I watch high level shiai, their forms are the same compared when they are in a keiko. I bet constant practice prepared them to have a single mindset during keiko and shiai, it doesn't make a difference anymore. And for beginners, it so obvious that things they learned from keiko are usually washed away or fade when confronted by an opponent in a shiai. This is a newbie syndrome but sometimes its also a symptom when the mind is simply injected with fear. But primarily, shiai is actually converting a good keiko into a scoring good keiko, correct me if I'm wrong.:)

[m_french]

Originally posted by Ares2907


Incidentally blocking is a poor option no matter where you try it imnsho. If you have time to block, you have time to counter. If you don't, then it's not blocking you need to be working on.

In theory this is true, but there are a host of waza that incorperate the block into the counter, and are these not extremely effective against a ramped up rapid fire opponent??:beard:

[Ares2907]

I was talking about a static block, not kaeshi waza and similar. They are extremely effective to be sure and yet the underlying point remains. Kaeshi waza and the like are rarely effective as a reactionary waza. It can be effective as a pre-meditated waza but that's too dangerous a way to play it for me. If one is not pressuring one's opponent into making at attack, then one's effectiveness with that waza is questionable.
I stand by my statement. Blocking is a poor option no matter when implemented, be it theory or practise.

[Chusan]

Originally posted by m_french
In theory this is true, but there are a host of waza that incorperate the block into the counter, and are these not extremely effective against a ramped up rapid fire opponent??
No.
Blocking is no Kendo-technique. Never.