Jodan & Nito

[alexpollijr]

Gentleman,

Do anyone have special exercises & drills to be conducted for strenghtening the body for Jodan ? I already do katate suburi a lot but I don't think that it's enough. Plus, am I at a disadvantage for being right-handed? I've been practicing jodan for a while but never got to try it in shiai

Plus, is there any Nitoryu kenshi in here?

Thank you so much,

Alex Polli

[hamish]

Try using nunchaku, I hear they're good for developing the flexibility needed to wield the shinai in jodan. Apart from that, just doing all your kendo from jodan should give you some good results.

[michael tsen]

you may try to do more pumping (push-up) because you need a strong shoulder to carry the shinai above your head (for more than 5 minute for every shiai) and you should forget about the right-handed problem. Just set an attack zone which your shinai can reach. Make sure you use it in geiko or shiai, otherwise you will not know how much you have learn about Jodan.

[Nishi]

Does anyone know what the competition legal specifications for nito shinai and shoto are? Weight and length etc etc?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Does anyone know what the competition legal specifications for nito shinai and shoto are? Weight and length etc etc?

Here's the current regs:
http://www.kendo-usa.org/reference/shinai_regs.htm

[Nishi]

Cheers Neil....

Do you know off the top of your head if datotsu can be scored with shoto, and if so what are the targets and details surrounding them?


I dont ask much do i... :cheeky:

[Kendoka]

Cheers Neil....

Do you know off the top of your head if datotsu can be scored with shoto, and if so what are the targets and details surrounding them?


I dont ask much do i... :cheeky:

There is a thread on this question elswhere in KWF, however, it is very rare to score with shoto when playing kendo nito in shiai. I was at a seminar recently when that question was put to Toda sensei (goodies page.

You can, of course attempt a cut with the shoto and make contact at the target point, but scoring in shiai would take extraordinary experience and be rare.

My guess is that when you are 7 or 8 dan, then you may be able to "score".

Keep training.

Richard

[Simon Chien]

Hi Alex,

You may want to do the single ( left hand ) hand jumping suburi holding on the end of a normal 39 shinai. I heard from many experienced kendoka that doing single hand jumping suburi is good for your kendo whether it's chudan or Jodan ..............

[ben]

All your kirikaeshi should be one-handed as well young Polli... ;)

b

[JSchmidt]

All your kirikaeshi should be one-handed as well young Polli... ;)

b

Well, the young Polli is now over a year wiser since he first posted the question :).

Jakob

[alexpollijr]

Well, the young Polli is now over a year wiser since he first posted the question :).

Jakob

True, lots of questions have been brought back from the dead these days. Must be a good sign, though, that they are still relevant. Or not.

Truth is, katate choyaku suburi is do-able these days. Rounds and rounds of katate kirikaeshi are not. It's interesting, though. When the receiver lets it hit the Men things are so much easier then when motodachi receives with the shinai. The futon seems to absorb all of the momentum, allowing me to pull the shinai back easily. However, the shinai gives back part of the force of the hit, thus making each return unpredictable.

The thing is, I don't know about the other nito and jodan people around ( OW, Jakob, Itokazu, Inouye, etc ) but my biggest problem today is dealing with suriage oji. It's hard to bring the shinai back when the aite deflects it in mid-flight. The picture below is en example of that. My aite's strike went right through the center, deflecting my own men attempt with the daito and smacking right through my head, since the shoto was a little to the right at that moment.

Tough business guys.

- Alexandre

[Old Warrior]

"It's hard to bring the shinai back when the aite deflects it in mid-flight."

This was the approximate subject of a short lecture I had from Master Seong. We have a language barrier and but for his being able to demonstrate - it would be tough to learn anything, but I believe I got his point. His being able to show me the "right way" is "everything".

He conveyed that the daito strike is not primaritly a downward motion, but a forward one. When you miss, the wrist should bend back as you continue forward momentum. (I apologize for my poor descriptive text) Thus if you miss (or are parried/deflected) he wants me to continue forward into the opponent AND as the daito extends - the shoto should rise up to protect your men. Eventually, you find yourself with the swords crossed in front of your face and you are safe - for the moment.

I am having trouble with so many things this is just one. The entire philosophy of nito kendo is different than itto. I am constantly being corrected that I am too close to my opponent and that I need more patience. This is totally contrary to the aggressive itto combination attack style that is practised.

Forgive me, I have tried to contribute what I could from my limited understanding.

[alexpollijr]

Actually it's an interesting point. If you get to read 'Musashi no Ken', that Musashi Kai book on nito, (http://www.buyubooks.com/product_details.cfm?id=10616) they don't talk about this daito raise to block the incoming men from the opponent, because it seems that they actually they believe every opponent will be tricked into Osaete-Men ( which I believe is the maneuver Itokazu used on that denmark guy on the kumdovj video Matsuda sensei posted here on KWF).

Of course, I try to execute the manuver as a forward one ( as you can see here - http://cygnus.pucrs.br/men1.jpg ) and 'lock in' if I miss but even so a skilled opponent can deflect the daito and break in to your men before you can stop him with the daito. If you jump in for the men strike worried that he'll hit you in return, it'll end up being a half-assed attempt. At least that's what I think.

I trust that nito has been a difficult experience for you, especially because you took it so early, as I believe you're not of a dan grade yet. All the distance and center notions are so very different and having to coordinate both arms to a result that is actually nice to watch (not the 'bamboo everywhere' stickfight that is often seen on nito matches) is a tough deal.

- Alexandre




I am having trouble with so many things this is just one. The entire philosophy of nito kendo is different than itto. I am constantly being corrected that I am too close to my opponent and that I need more patience. This is totally contrary to the aggressive itto combination attack style that is practised.

Forgive me, I have tried to contribute what I could from my limited understanding.

[Old Warrior]

"I trust that nito has been a difficult experience for you, especially because you took it so early, as I believe you're not of a dan grade yet. All the distance and center notions are so very different and having to coordinate both arms to a result that is actually nice to watch (not the 'bamboo everywhere' stickfight that is often seen on nito matches) is a tough deal."

It has been a marvelous challenge. I am not easily frustrated and when I encounter something I cannot, immediately, do - I just practice it until I can. That is not to say I can do anything very well at this point. But, I will say that doing nito has allowed me to focus on doing a smaller number of techniques, in greater repetition. Initially, the problem was pure strength as it was much harder to be able to control 2 swords than 1 and a simple large men needed to be relearned when done with 1 hand. Also, I cannot control the daito with my left, so all the footwork is now reversed as my left foot is now forward. And, the language barrier makes my progress somewhat limited as I have a zillion questions and they go unasked and unanswered. One handed suburi, if you do full and proper cuts is still a nightmare (I maxed out at 250).

If I cannot translate the given exercise to a nito version - I just stick to what I have been taught and practise it over and over and over. You are right that I am learning some basic lessons for the first time in nito. But, I'm not so sure its a bad thing. I fully comprehend the need for timining and distance from my years of epee fencing. The fact that I am learning it for the first time in Kendo doing nito, doesn't seem to be a problem. I'm not saying I'm any good, only that I intellectually comprehend the concepts and how important they are.

I downloaded every one of the nito techniques from your website and watched them in looped version until I can see every aspect of how you do it. THANK YOU! I then reverse everything, in my mind, so I can see how I should do it.

[alexpollijr]

Just a little disclaimer
Depending on what video you see it might or might not be me, and it might or might not me the correct way to do things ;)

- Alexandre

[JSchmidt]

Against a properly executed suriage, there isn't really much you can do except bow and say thank you :)...but in order to make sure that it has to be a well timed and executed one that will land, closing the distance is the best tactic, apart from overcoming the opponent with pressure and seme.

Jakob

[Nishi]

I do this with novice/intermediate nito players....(ive never played 4rth dan or higher in nito)

Uchiotoshi the shoto down, hold centre and seme, almost like your about to tsuki, this usually instigates a panic'd mencut which (because your in control) is easliy suriage'd...then return menuchi. If the daito drops to cover the nito players men then strike (shoto)kote as its usually left dangling out in front, while his/her attention is elsewhere.

I also take seigan kamae against nito, as to protect my shinai from being trapped by the shoto.

I agree it takes alot of control and pressure, but so far has been very effective. Fakes are good to start the confusion as well.

Just me, i hope this helps.

[Old Warrior]

"Uchiotoshi the shoto down, hold centre and seme, almost like your about to tsuki, this usually instigates a panic'd mencut which (because your in control)"

Well, I qualify as your novice nito player, but I can't relate to what you describe. If you pushed my shoto down, my first reaction would be to step back. When I do cut men, I raise my shoto to protect my own head. You would be much better off if you succeeded in controlling my shoto - to cut kote. That's why my first reaction is to regroup and step back. You could only get me to cut men if I felt you were starting an attack from distance and I attempted to cut first. But then, I am a novice and my thoughts are not worth much.

[Nishi]

If you pushed my shoto down, my first reaction would be to step back. When I do cut men, I raise my shoto to protect my own head. You would be much better off if you succeeded in controlling my shoto - to cut kote. That's why my first reaction is to regroup and step back.


I think you'll find that all techniques no matter who describes them are not an exact science..to many variables. The above technique is more to add options to peoples arsenal.

However you did mention you would step back and regroup....this is usually due to being threatened (seme) and stepping back away from someone who is commited is trouble..The above technique (like all waza) must be applied with seme, this clouds the opponents choices. Far to easy to discuss what we would do when not under pressure.

[Danny Boy]

The way we've been taught to fight Kendoka that use Nito is to overcome them with spirit...and be more agressive than them.
There was this French gentleman that used Nito at Sumi-sensei's seminar, and i have to say that it worked flawlessly for me. Then again he might have not been experianced in Nito.

Sincerely,

Dan Winiarczyk,
Taiseidokai Kendo Club,
Glasgow

[Old Warrior]

"Far too easy to discuss what we would do when not under pressure."

Absolutely, but the discussion is what makes this forum so worthwhile. You have told me what a "better and more experienced" kenshi is thinking and I have shared what goes through my mind. As an older newbie, I don't usually experience the "panic" but I get tagged at that instant when I'm thinking, when I should be reacting. Of course, I'm too inexperienced to be reacting properly. All I can do is make a mental note of my error - and work on it.

[MaxPayneWayne]

most people who do nito are novice and anything works on them. try going against experienced nito kenshi. it's way different.

[Nishi]

Kendo is a different against all experienced kenshi, not just nito. When kenshi become highly experienced it dosnt matter what kamae is being use to fight.

The three ways to destroy an opponent are destroying his sword, spirit, or technique...highly experienced kenshi have developed these three attributes over a longer period of time, so choosing an approach against them will always be difficult, sometimes pointless...but of these three attributes...destroying the spirit is the heart of kendo, because it is needed to perform the other two correctly.

[Danny Boy]

most people who do nito are novice and anything works on them. try going against experienced nito kenshi. it's way different.


So if i go against Moocow or Raymond, im supposed to "bend over" and take it like a female-dog ? LOLz.

[eKenshi]

Hi,i am a newbie and i havent started training with the shinai or done any suburi.I just want to ask what is Jodan and Chudan?

[Nishi]

Hi,i am a newbie and i havent started training with the shinai or done any suburi.I just want to ask what is Jodan and Chudan?

This link was posted on the Jodan centre thread by Steve of Halifax dojo...its a very good link that shows basic kamae (posture or stance). Enjoy!!!

http://www.halifaxkendo.org/kamae.html