New Bogu - Korean vs. Japanese

[Karaken]

OK, just received a set of my dream on the cheap.
1.2bu hand made with 60 bamboo for $1,200 was too good a deal to pass on. Beasides, my 4mm Japanese machine made one was getting old and ragged after 6 years of use.

My questions - I need your wisdom..

1. How to break in Men Wing nicely? Not only it's super stiff but also I'd like to break in right. The last one was shaped straight from back to front and end up being worn out earlier than it should have. ( what's the optimum angle back to front? Where should be the starting point in the back of men? )

2. How can you tell bamboo from Yamato do? Not that I don't trust the company who said it's 60 bamboo but it weighs and looks exactly same as my old do with 40 fiberglass do ( I don't think they accidentally put bamboo in my old 4mm machine do )
Is there any way one can tell without disassembling it?

3. Also titanium? Any easy way to tell them apart from Duralumin ( Is that the one normally being used? )

4. Also while I was shopping for a set of bogu, I noticed my old 4mm stiching is all over the place ( not straight, some wider than the next thread etc.. - Look like it was being done on a sewing machine by hand ) whereas Korean bogus have everything exactly evenly spaced and uniform - seems like it's done by true machine ( robot? ). Is this just my old 4mm or all Japanese ones are like this? Your thoughts and observations please.

Korean Tare is thinner than my old 4mm one, but so far the fit and made is very good.


Oh BTW, let's see who's got what.. Let's poll.

[sminki]

I currently have 2 sets of Korean machine made - both 2mm. Currently in market (and have been "sampling" bogu shops in Korea for more than a year. i.e., going to the shops, talking to owners, looking at their hand-made stuff, etc. whenever I'm in Korea) Below are my opinions:

Korean hand-made bogu - generally just as good as Japanesee hand-made bogu in terms of craftsmanship (except maybe the lacquer paint on the do). There are more differences in quality of leather used, etc. (i.e., to achieve lower costs on the hand-made stuff, some Korean manufacturers will use lower-cost leather, etc., which would not effect the performance of the bogu and may be marginally noticeable. If you buy "export to Japan" quality hand-made bogu from Korea (i.e. no holding back), it can cost in excess of $2,500.

1. Men wings - the break should start slightly below eye level (when you take this line to the back of the head, it should be right below the skull at the spot your neck muscle starts). The break line should be approximately 40-45 degrees measured from the back edge of the men. Some people do like it higher, but I find that the men is more prone to coming off accidentally if you have it much higher. It shouldn't be lower either. Men wings having this shape (_ _) directly over your shoulders and not falling naturally more in front of your shoulders (though I don't mean directly in front. it's over/front if that makes sense) do not serve their purpose to the fullest extent.

2. Bamboo vs. fiberglass do - You can tell by the finish on the back of the do where you can see the slats. Fiberglass imitation-bamboo do will have more glossy look than the real bamboo do (remember that I'm talking about the back of the do). You can also feel that the fiberglass do will feel much smoother than the real bamboo do.

3. Titanium men-gane - Easy. Much lighter.

4. Japanesee vs. Korean machine made bogu stitching - Can't comment as I have never owned a set of Japanese machine made bogu. However, there are people in my dojo who have Japanese machine made bogu and their bogu stitching seems to be fine. Your old set just may be really old. :-)

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by sminki
3. Titanium men-gane - Easy. Much lighter.
Actually the titanium men-gane is a little heavier. For a standard 14-bar men-gane, titanium weighs 360 g and duralumin weighs 270 g (this info from Stroud-sensei, Koei distributor). Titanium's benefits are supposedly strength and different vibration properties.

But the original poster's questions - "how do I tell this stuff I got in the mail is any good" - is an issue for many people. The short answer is that you can't tell if it's any good until you use it for a few years and see that it stands up. Which is why I recommend my students to buy from a supplier I know and trust and which has been in business a long time. If they spend a few extra dollars to do that, it's worth it IMHO.

Regarding Korean vs Japanese quality - you can't make too many broad generalisations. Each supplier is different and each supplier offers a number of different price points. I've only seen a bogu from 3 Korean suppliers and from several Japanese. Generally, you gets what you pays for. You can say "I can get this 3 mm bogu from e-bogu for $US500 but 3 mm bogu from bogubag (Koei) is $1300". But there's just no comparing a low-end set from e-bogu with a high-end one from Koei, you've got to compare apples to apples. I've only seen the low-end bogu from e-bogu for example. It's very good value for the dollar but I wouldn't recommend it except for those looking for their first set. I'm sure the more expensive stuff Ariga-sensei sells is of proportionately better quality.

[sminki]

hmmm...

must be accurate if you got the info from Stroud sensei from bogu bag, but still hard to believe that titanium men is heavier than duraluminum... picked up a men w/ titanium men gane just last week and it felt much lighter...

[Neil Gendzwill]

This info sprung from a conversation on iaido-l with David Pan. If you do the following google search you can see the various points: http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=titanium&safe=images&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_ugroup=fa.iaido&as_uauthors=pan&lr=&hl=en

[alexpollijr]

Sminki,

You might have the IBB PRO Titanium Mengane.
These really feel lighter than standard duralumin.

[smith]

Titanium is usually stamped with the symbol IBB on the side of the central mengane bar near the top.

[Neil Gendzwill]

IBB is a specific brand name of titanium men-gane which is supposedly better-balanced than a normal one. They are usually found on the more expensive hand-stitched bogu.

[Karaken]

Neil, I saw your comments somewhere on uneven stiching vs. uniform stiching. My old Japanese 3-4mm set has random stiching of various space. It was very comportable from the beginning so I think it's well-made but it is not very strong. It is showing severe age after only 6 years of 1-2/week of use. This compared to 2mm Kote from Korea which is very stiff and has uniform stiching of almost 1mm apart.

Also, do you have any special secret you can share on " How to break in stiff Men Wing" ? Is it just time & sweat that cure it all?

Aimless but Center..

[Neil Gendzwill]

In another thread I posted a link to the bogu manual. It shows how to break the wings in. Basically, you just fold them the way you like them and tie them up with the men-himo and store it that way. As far as general stiffness (and ear-pain), you just have to suck it up. Making sure the strings are correctly on either side of the ear to make a pocket is good. Also if you can get someone to show you how to tie the tenugui in the "party hat" style it covers the ears and helps.

As far as your bogu not lasting too long, it depends on the quality. 5-6 years of twice-weekly practice is pretty average for a pair of medium-quality kote. Men should last longer. But as I've said before, we have bogu of varying quality from the same supplier (Koei) and it's easy to see that the cheaper ones offer less protection and don't last as long. And it also depends on the user. If you take a lot of shots to the knuckles for example, that padding in the kote will deteriorate faster. Some people are harder on their equipment than others. I'm still using the bogu I first bought 18 years ago. I'm tall, so my men is still pretty good, but I replaced the kote 5 or 6 years ago.

[kendomushi]

Be careful about tying the wings up though. You don't want them to stay up when you put the men on. Ideally they point basicaly down and in front of the shoulders. You can always tell someone who constantly ties the wings up and leaves them that way, they put on the men and the wings look like they are trying to fly away.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by kendomushi
Be careful about tying the wings up though. You don't want them to stay up when you put the men on. Ideally they point basicaly down and in front of the shoulders. You can always tell someone who constantly ties the wings up and leaves them that way, they put on the men and the wings look like they are trying to fly away.

That's definitely a matter of style. Some people like them as you describe, others prefer them up. A lot of it depends on where in Japan your instructor is from and how old he is. In our dojo, the wings all look like they're flying away. To my mind, this is better because it is less restricting with the flaps off your shoulders. But both styles are used and people generally use one or the other because that's what they were taught.

Like tieing the men strings. The most common style of tying the men has the himo attaching to the fourth bar from the bottom is called the Kanto style after the region (eastern, Tokyo) where it is popular. The second style with the himo attached to the top is called the Kansai style after the region (western, Kyoto, Kyushu, Osaka) where it is popular. Neither is "wrong" or "right", they're just different.

[kendomushi]

The flaps flying up seems less protective to me. Much easier for a misplaced tsuki to jab the neck (leaves a heck of a hickie for those of you who might not have seen it done). And since the power of a strike comes mostly from the wrists I don't find the wings down to have any real effect on my kendo.
However, I'm from Tokyo and in this area I see everyone trying to keep the wings down and sensei corecting those who don't. It might well be a Kansai and Kanto thing, heck we can't even keep the electricity the same (50Hz in Kanto, 60Hz in Kansai). So I guess I shouldn't expect anything in kendo to follow some other more logical convention either.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by kendomushi
And since the power of a strike comes mostly from the wrists I don't find the wings down to have any real effect on my kendo.
That's fine for doing small technique but if you need to use large techniques (like kiri-kaeshi) where your hands are above your head, I'd think your style would be restrictive. But I haven't tried it myself, maybe it works just fine.

[kendomushi]

For me it does work fine, and I prefer big waza. But then again it might be that I'm a big ugly brute and the little wings of the men just aren't going to be in my way no matter the waza.

[Paburo]

one of our senseis 7th dan kyoshi said that the wings should be DOWN(he said wings up would mean losing godan test).
why? he said it's because people who don't train often have the wings naturally up(i.e. the men has been stored for a long time), so it's seen as bad sign. just for the record he is from shizuoka.

in our dojo we wear the flags down. like kendomushi said, i think they are more for protection that for comfort.

some of my dojo mates always bend their head/body when doing kote, so when i do kote-nuki-men(always try to go straight)sometimes i hit them on the wing neck/shoulder area.
if they would have the wings up i'd probably give them a bruise. a lot of shiai/style kenshi bend their body too. for these ppl i don't think it's wise to wear their wings up flying.

[alexpollijr]

Body bender here.

And yea, I use the wings down and to the front, just as kendomushi mentioned. They've saved my neck a hundred times.

Although I've seen godan sensei with the wings up high, almost like a nun's hood :rolleyes:

[Karaken]

The mystery solved..

The reason I couldn't tell 40 piece plastic from 60 piece bamboo do was because my 40 piece were not plastic. They are bamboo. I verified this by taking a small piece from the do and burn it. No doubt it's bamboo.

The question is why would they put 40 piece bamboo in 4mm machine stich bogu. It is very comportable ( but weak ) and the stich is not very straight and randomly spaced so I'm guessing it's done by hand using sewing machine. Also the bamboos are not punctured correctly ( not a top craftmanship ) and I see multiple layers of papers between bamboo and leather ( hinting cheap ).

Also, mengane might be steel instead of alloy. I see some rust inside and bottom two lines look like copper.

Do you think it's very old type of bogu? I bought it from my sensei back in 1997 for $1,000. My first day in this bogu was a day of promotion test and I don't remember having any trouble at all.

Having a small shoulder, inside of men wing is all worn showing the blanket(?). Based on bogu manual, it needs to be fixed. Do they put another cloth on top or just sew more to keep them together?
I don't have any place around here to fix my bogu ( my kote looks like leather mosaic.) anyway so guess it's days are numbered.

Oh well - I guess i didn't pay much attention to other bogus.
Didn't know I was wearing Bamboo do all these years.
One more question - Is 50 piece plastic do really 50 separate pieces of plastic or just 50 lines on one big plastic piece?

Center - where the bamboo is - Center

[AlexM]

I was wondering: When you have the "men flaps" lying relatively flat over the shoulders (as opposed to more towards the front) isn't it easier for your opponent to see your breathing pattern? The "men flaps" moving up and down indicating breathing rate and thus how tired you are and when you're gathering breath for a strike. In this sense doesn't having the men wings (will someone please tell me what they're called!) towards the front negate this a bit (although not entierly). Just a thought.

I'm breaking in a new set and I'm debating how I should break in the men wings. They seem to want to "be" in the front so I'm leaving them there. This seems more like a debate about bogu esthetics (not withstanding what I just said or the debate about having them "up" or not) since having the men wings flat over the shoulders or a bit more towards the front seems to offer little difference in terms of protection.

[xvikingx]

My bogu is Korean machine stitch and it is falling apart on me. I dont know too much about bogu though. My set is very cheap so I dont think it has much to do with the counrty of origin.

[aru-ma]

xvikingx Just wondering, how much did your bogu cost? was it second hand?

[Karaken]

My wing is still very stiff after (2) days use. When I try big waza, my shoulder pushes my men up. Of course, I can't tie it tight yet ( Back of the men doesn't cave to fit my head yet ) so it tries to come off my head.
I can try Kansai style but I hate to thread every time I put on my bogu. So I've tried this..

Start with kanto style but instead of tying it just cross the back and bring it down to your Tuski and wrap around ( like Kansai ) then tie it in the back.

I like it. Nothing to thread and much better hold.
Now, am I violating any rules or something?
Has anyone tried tying it this way?

( Also posted - Tying Men - somewhere )

Center - not so high for now.

[KATSUJIN]

i have tried it once karaken....it holds well...and i dont think you r violating any rules...becos one of my sensei wears his men like that....

[KhawMengLee]

Which one, Kato Sensei?

[KATSUJIN]

No..u did not go on the sunday training rite? u wouldnt have seen him....this sensei is a 6 dan....very strong....

[Karaken]

Katsujin Thanks. Was just wondering why noone's doing it.
Now I can relax and use it all the time..

Center - and all the way up

[samurai999]

Originally posted by sminki

3. Titanium men-gane - Easy. Much lighter.


Lighter or the sensation that it is lighter? Usually the weight doesn't matter as much as where the CG of the mengane is located. If it is located closer to your head, it will feel lighter. I have one of those IBB titanium mengane mens and they feel nice and light.

I bought an Eguchi 2mm machine stitch men and I was wearing it at practice first to try it out. By the time our home tournament came 5 days later, I was competing with it. It was the most comfortable men I have ever worn.. The first men I got from Eguchi was pretty painful. It was rubbing the ears, (so much so that my ears were bloody by the end of practice) and it felt heavy.

My 0.02,
Tim

[stevemcgee99]

Eguchi- rah! rah! rah!

[Karaken]

Originally posted by AlexM
I was wondering: When you have the "men flaps" lying relatively flat over the shoulders (as opposed to more towards the front) isn't it easier for your opponent to see your breathing pattern? The "men flaps" moving up and down indicating breathing rate and thus how tired you are and when you're gathering breath for a strike. In this sense doesn't having the men wings (will someone please tell me what they're called!) towards the front negate this a bit (although not entierly). Just a thought.

I'm breaking in a new set and I'm debating how I should break in the men wings. They seem to want to "be" in the front so I'm leaving them there. This seems more like a debate about bogu esthetics (not withstanding what I just said or the debate about having them "up" or not) since having the men wings flat over the shoulders or a bit more towards the front seems to offer little difference in terms of protection.

Alex, it's called Mendare ( or Mentare ). Anyway, according to "The heart of Kendo" by Darrell Craig, 45 degree to the front is wrong way of folding mendare. It supposed to straight up and when folded mendare shouldn't cover mengane(grill) at all.

Wonder anyone can verify whether Craig is correct in saying that.
Some of us on this forum suggested 45 degree way is the right way ( and I see many of them doing it ).

Center is right.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Having just received my new bogu, I'm trying to break it in so that the flaps are more on the shoulders - all the discussion here has made me reconsider my opinion. In talking to my sensei he is also trying to get his flaps down, although his old ones were flying.

Also my new men is hand-stitched and the flaps aren't so stiff as machine-stitched ones. It seems like they're OK down and I have good movement and protection too. But I still want them over the shoulders and slightly in front, not laying all the way in front like some I've seen. To do this, I fold the flaps so that they break right at the leather bits close to the mengane and that the corners touch the centre bar of the mengane. I didn't want a hard break like my old one, so I only tied it near the ends, not near the break. Now that I've got a nice gentle break, I'm going to store the men with the flaps down. Hopefully this will all work out.

[AlexM]

Originally posted by Karaken


Alex, it's called Mendare ( or Mentare ). Anyway, according to "The heart of Kendo" by Darrell Craig, 45 degree to the front is wrong way of folding mendare. It supposed to straight up and when folded mendare shouldn't cover mengane(grill) at all.


I think the guy is wrong. Not because he says that the mendare should be over the shoulders, but because he says that it's the only right way to do it. This seems like a preference thing.

I was just watching some all-Japan clips and their (at least Iwasa's and Sato's) mendare are not totally on top of the shoulders. They're just a little bit forward (not much though, but still visibly so).

Our sensei urges us to try to get the mendare a bit forward to avoid looking like "butterflies" when we fight (the wings going up and down, get it?).

[Karaken]

I was wondering about that myself. There are a few other points that are not quite correct in that book. I was wondering whether anyone on this forum can give us definite ( if such a thing exists ) answer and the reason for it as well.. ( Neil, Ben where are U?)

Center - only

[Neil Gendzwill]

There's no definite answer, it's a style sort of thing. Some people have them really forward, some straight sideways, some down, some flapping high.

The only "absolutes" I know have to do with tieing the men - no crossed or twisted strings, loops same length as the ends, ends not longer than 40 cm from the knot. Also you should be sure that no excess tenugui sticks out the back to flap in the breeze.

[hammock]

this posts will be a little off-topic to the flow of previous posts, but is relevant to the subject.

in korea, there are many different kumdo equipment shops that make their equipment, and are thus the major suppliers to most of the internet shops that sell "korean made" kendo equipment.

though it is widely known that sehyun stands out above most other korean manufacturers. they are a little more expensive, but they are popular here for their quality and service. still it is a steal compared to japanese made.

i dont have sehyun equipment; i bought my bogu before i came to korea, but seeing how much some of their hand-stitched stuff is, and comparing the prices with japanese machine made..

[Karaken]

Yes, I second that. Besides Sehyun and Kendoshop, there are other Korean Web stores that are cheaper but may still have quality goods. I recently purchased hand-made 1.2 bu bogu with titanium men and 60-piece bamboo at slightly more than $1,000 and it wasn't even on sale. Many of them planning on English site soon but one I visited is Korean only at the moment. Also, many do not accept credit card although one I bought mine did.

Center.. Good men

[joekc6nlx]

I've only seen the low-end bogu from e-bogu for example. It's very good value for the dollar but I wouldn't recommend it except for those looking for their first set. I'm sure the more expensive stuff Ariga-sensei sells is of proportionately better quality.
I bought the Top Quality 2mm Machine stitched bogu from e-Bogu. I'm very happy with it. My sensei was the first to look it over and check it for quality. He was very impressed with it, and made many comments about how good it was.

I haven't had a problem with my bogu, even with the hardest strikes to the men. I will admit that the titanium does take some getting used to, but since this is my first set of bogu, I really can't compare other manufacturers or materials.