Tackle?

[yohed55]

well, this morning when i was laying in bed thinking about kendo, i remembered my sempai saying that if you get your shinai knocked out of your hands, you can tackle the person and if you pull off there men, you get the point! he said that last part laughingly and then said "don't try that unless you're sure you can" but he said it's perfectly acceptable to just put your head down and grab onto them so they can't hit you, and to keep in in the back of our minds. can you guys tell me the name of this manuver, or anything else about it for that matter, i find it really interesting. thanks

[JoonShik]

WOW, never heard of that before. I know that if you drop your shinai, you can run and hug the guy so he cant hit you and get a point. Never heard of tackle and take off the men before.

[ShinKenshi]

Are you sure your sempai wasn't joking?

[yohed55]

yes, im sure he wasn't joking. but it sounded lik you'd have a hard time getting someone's men off from the way he said it. maybe i will see it at the upcoming MWKF tournament!

[mystic_kendoka]

i've heard that same thing quite a few times myself...i think it probably is true traditionally, but i don't think a lot of tournaments would allow, let alone give you a point for it...

[Tono]

I believe your sensei was talking about pre-WWII kendo rules. My sensei and I were talking about the different methods of tying the menhimo and I asked about 8 shaku "kansai" himo that attach via a single chichigawa (sp? correct name?) at the top of the men. He said that an older, pre-WWII kendo practice was to foot-sweep your opponent, grapple with them on the ground, and try to tear off their men. This was the equivalent of beheading your opponent. Apparently the kansai himo were a bit more difficult to get through to pull off your opponent's men.

Anyway, Sensei trained for a year at the Tokyo Police Department kendo dojo where I guess such techniques are still practiced, though they are illegal in tournaments.

Anyone else know more about this?

[Lloromannic]

well, this morning when i was laying in bed thinking about kendo, i remembered my sempai saying that if you get your shinai knocked out of your hands, you can tackle the person and if you pull off there men, you get the point! he said that last part laughingly and then said "don't try that unless you're sure you can" but he said it's perfectly acceptable to just put your head down and grab onto them so they can't hit you, and to keep in in the back of our minds. can you guys tell me the name of this manuver, or anything else about it for that matter, i find it really interesting. thanks

You'd probably get at least a hansoku for that and maybe thrown out.

[yohed55]

thanks for the feedback, i think i will just stick to not dropping my shinai.

[Ezmarelda]

Tono,
Is your Sensei Mark Uchida? If so, I had the opportunity to train with him a few times when he was here in Florida. I know all of us in Florida really miss him; it was a wonderful opportunity to have him here.

And I'm not sure if I would ever try to pull off someone's men in a tournament. Don't you get a hansoko for dropping your shinai anyways? I think you most assuredley get one if you tackled your opponent and tore off their men. :wink:

[Paikea]

You'd probably get at least a hansoku for that and maybe thrown out.Carried out, more like. Ask one of the older guys at SJ (anybody from Hawaii?) to show you some old school kendo. A very, um, enlightening experience.

[Theodore]

well, this morning when i was laying in bed thinking about kendo, i remembered my sempai saying that if you get your shinai knocked out of your hands, you can tackle the person and if you pull off there men, you get the point! he said that last part laughingly and then said "don't try that unless you're sure you can" but he said it's perfectly acceptable to just put your head down and grab onto them so they can't hit you, and to keep in in the back of our minds. can you guys tell me the name of this manuver, or anything else about it for that matter, i find it really interesting. thanks

Saw Stroud-sensei perform an interesting variant, he lost control of his shinai and in response he just plucked his partner's out of his hand and gave him about 2-3 men before he stopped.

[Paikea]

Saw Stroud-sensei perform an interesting variant, he lost control of his shinai and in response he just plucked his partner's out of his hand and gave him about 2-3 men before he stopped.Hehehe...saw that once myself. Have you encountered the katate-jodan smile-wave-ippon yet?

[T.Lee]

its very expected to hug your opponent if you lose your shinai during a match. its now basically to "defend" yourself during the brief moment before the shimpan calls "yame" where your opponent can still score a point.

and i do believe the move has its roots in allowing a point to be scored by removing the men of your opponent, which basically becomes a wrestling/judo match. so its not a joke.

ive seen a point scored on a disarmed person in shiai. it was actually part of the waza and very skillfully executed.

[Pokie]

what if you tackle really hard (accidentally) and ur opponent falls to the ground, is that ok ? or hansoku ?

[Miravil]

To tackle an opponent (including hugging) when loosing shinai is already a hansoku, so whether if you caused your opponent to fall doesn't really matter much unless you caused injuries. Just my 2 cents.

[Theodore]

Hehehe...saw that once myself. Have you encountered the katate-jodan smile-wave-ippon yet?

Mizobe-sensei of WKD was visiting us and they both did the katate-jodan with simultaneous yokomen. That was kinda cool.

[Pokie]

Miravil: You sure hugging too ? I saw Eiga do that in all japan, he wasn't penalised.

[Miravil]

Miravil: You sure hugging too ? I saw Eiga do that in all japan, he wasn't penalised.

Well, I was told by one of the sempai that if I loose my shinai in a match and left unprotected, it's better to hug the opponent and get hansoku than loosing a full point cut. Your opponent needs 2 hansokus to win a point. Recently when I was attending a practice in Singapore, I saw this happened and the guy who hug his opponent got hansoku.

But then again, I'm not senior enough to know much. Anyone care to have a valid answer is welcome to correct me. :smiley:

[Nameless]

Wow...I learn something new every day.

[Paburo]

dropping your shinai: 1 hansoku

hugging your opponent: 1 hansoku

watching in shiai a newbie trying to take off the men of his opponent after dropping his own shinai(just cause his senpai tricked him into it).... priceless.


now seriously guys, we are not pre-war and those rules don't apply anymore. on IKF rules, if you just touch your opponent bare-handed(after losing your shinai), that's hansoku on the spot. should be two hansoku even, one for dropping your shinai and one for touching/hugging/pushing/struggling with your opponent. though most of the time in these cases shinpan will only give you ONE.

[yohed55]

watching in shiai a newbie trying to take off the men of his opponent after dropping his own shinai(just cause his senpai tricked him into it).... priceless.





then i would start crying, i am probably going to start laughing now if i drop my shinai.

[mystic_kendoka]

should be two hansoku even, one for dropping your shinai and one for touching/hugging/pushing/struggling with your opponent. though most of the time in these cases shinpan will only give you ONE.

but thats the thing, you only get 1 hansoku for 2 fouls, so you might as well commit the second foul to make sure you dont lose a whole point,

wether this strategy is morally correct or not is another question, but i do think it would work as a strategy if winning is MOST important...

if i lost my shinai, i would step out of the shiaijo, same effect, you get a hansoku instead of losing a point, but people don't think you're a sick bastard

[Paburo]

but thats the thing, you only get 1 hansoku for 2 fouls, so you might as well commit the second foul to make sure you dont lose a whole point
that's also true. that's why many advice to hug your aite if you lose shinai... but if it's obvious you're trying to take the men/armour off your opponent, or doing some fancy move or hurt on purpose, you might not only lose half/one point, you can get disqualified and out the tournament.

[JSchmidt]

Opponent got very short to execute the cut after you drop the shinai. Either just close the distance and move outside his reach. No need for hugging. By the time you get your arms wrapped around, the shinpan will already have called 'yame'.

Jakob

[samurai999]

dropping your shinai: 1 hansoku

hugging your opponent: 1 hansoku

watching in shiai a newbie trying to take off the men of his opponent after dropping his own shinai(just cause his senpai tricked him into it).... priceless.


if you just touch your opponent bare-handed(after losing your shinai), that's hansoku on the spot.

Well this depends on sensei. All my sensei from the north (cali that is) say to hug your opponent in the event you get your shinai tossed or run away if you are far enough away from your opponent..

Of course hugging is one thing.. Hugging then proceeding to do a judo move is another. We don't get hansoku for hugging the opponent during a match if the shinai is dropped as I have seen it being done.

Tim

[samurai999]

Mizobe-sensei of WKD was visiting us and they both did the katate-jodan with simultaneous yokomen. That was kinda cool.

oh boy.. I'd like to see inouye02 respond to this one...

Tim

[mystic_kendoka]

We don't get hansoku for hugging the opponent during a match if the shinai is dropped as I have seen it being done.

if you hug the opponent, you get no hansoku what so ever? not even for dropping your shinai?

[T.Lee]

no, you get the hansoku for dropping the shinai, but not hugging. its not double jeopardy...

[samurai999]

if you hug the opponent, you get no hansoku what so ever? not even for dropping your shinai?

What I meant was no hansoku for hugging. You get a hansoku for dropping the shinai..

Tim

[Tono]

Tono,
Is your Sensei Mark Uchida? If so, I had the opportunity to train with him a few times when he was here in Florida. I know all of us in Florida really miss him; it was a wonderful opportunity to have him here.


Ezmarelda, sorry it's taken so long to respond...I've been out of town on a TDY.

Anyway, yes! My previous post was about a conversation I had with Uchida Sensei (Mark Uchida). Mind if I pass along your comments to him?

Cheers!

[Miravil]

I wonder if we really dropped our shinai in shiai, how many of us will go for the hug, run out of the shiai-jo or stunned? :smiley:

[samurai999]

I wonder if we really dropped our shinai in shiai, how many of us will go for the hug, run out of the shiai-jo or stunned? :smiley:

I've never dropped my shinai in a tournament. hehe

Tim

[Paburo]

I wonder if we really dropped our shinai in shiai, how many of us will go for the hug, run out of the shiai-jo or stunned? :smiley:
i havent lost my shinai in shiai either, but i guess id go for the 'crouch and grab it again as fast as possible and keep fighting' attitude instead of the 'im lost, and i hug you, please dont hit me mister peace and love' stance :D

p.s. argh.... i just remembered i DID lose it once in shiai, but it was during a nitou-ryu match, so i just stood there with my shoto in guard while the shinpan called yame....

[Miravil]

I've never dropped my shinai in a tournament. hehe

Tim


Well, me too. I was just wondering how will we react if that really happens?

As for me, I think most likely I will be stunned (well, maybe for the first time). My brain will be saying "what shall I do? what shall I do?" or "Duck!!!!"... lol. :p

[KhawMengLee]

Watch the 8th Dan match in the vids section(or was it on the dvd?). One of the 8th dan gets his shinai knocked out of his hands. He immediately puts both hands behind his back and runs forward to his opponent so that the guy can't hit him. The judges then call yame.

Mira, you if you drop your shinai you should cross train and give the guy a taekwondo kick to the head.

[Miravil]

Mira, you if you drop your shinai you should cross train and give the guy a taekwondo kick to the head.

Hey, that's a good idea. Lol.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

One of the 8th dan gets his shinai knocked out of his hands. He immediately puts both hands behind his back and runs forward to his opponent so that the guy can't hit him.

Why hands behind the back instead of a hug? He's an 8th Dan, so he clearly knows far more than most of us, to get his kote out of the line of attack maybe? I would have thought that by grabbing the opponent you'd eliminate any chance of them doing an hiki waza where if they could step back they might be able to get one in.

[Landorph]

i wonder what will happen if u did a spin kick to their head...after u drop your shinai.

Hansoku...1 .


continue....

[emitbrownne]

Why hands behind the back instead of a hug?

You can be penalized for blocking targets with your arms. Putting them behind your back removes that penalty, so as not to compound the shinai drop.

Getting in close then hinders the opponent with the shinai from striking you until YAME!!

[mystic_kendoka]

if you dropped your shinai, and then proceeded by doing a 8 hit taekwondo combo...

you'd get disqualified rite?

[Vortex]

I believe your sensei was talking about pre-WWII kendo rules. My sensei and I were talking about the different methods of tying the menhimo and I asked about 8 shaku "kansai" himo that attach via a single chichigawa (sp? correct name?) at the top of the men. He said that an older, pre-WWII kendo practice was to foot-sweep your opponent, grapple with them on the ground, and try to tear off their men. This was the equivalent of beheading your opponent. Apparently the kansai himo were a bit more difficult to get through to pull off your opponent's men.

Anyway, Sensei trained for a year at the Tokyo Police Department kendo dojo where I guess such techniques are still practiced, though they are illegal in tournaments.

Anyone else know more about this?


My Sensei and I spoke of this and "back in the day" it was allowed, but I cant say it is now....

[littlefoote04]

has anyone here lost their shinai during jegeiko?

[Lloromannic]

has anyone here lost their shinai during jegeiko?

Me, a few times.

[Miravil]

has anyone here lost their shinai during jegeiko?

Yeah, few times. Most of the time is when jigeiko with sensei.

[Bushidog]

OK, another question,

Is a puch with the tsuka or tsuba allowed?
Is a tsuki with the tip of the hilt/grip (tsukagashira) allowed?

[JSchmidt]

OK, another question,

Is a puch with the tsuka or tsuba allowed?
Is a tsuki with the tip of the hilt/grip (tsukagashira) allowed?

What do you think?

Jakob

[Bushidog]

I am not a kendoka, hence the question...

[Bushidog]

Yesterday I had a conversation with somebody who has been practising kendo a long time, and was a student of a wellknown Dutch Kendo teacher who unfortunately passed away (I think Fonsz knows him, at least he knows Fonsz).
He told me that it, although people will not like it (mildly expressed) technically it is not wrong.

So..., where's the truth?

[JSchmidt]

It's kendo, not whacking eachother whichever way you can, so it's not allowed.

[Bushidog]

Thanks for your friendly answer.
For someone with 1700+ posts you sure know how to tread a newbie!

[mystic_kendoka]

i think it is technically legal, but morally illegal,

doing so may mean not losing a point, but you lose your reputation...

[Bushidog]

So..., it IS allowed, although you are definately not making friends amongst your fellow kendoka.
Thanks mystic :cool:

[mystic_kendoka]

depends on what your friends are like ;)

[ShinKenshi]

OK, another question,

Is a puch with the tsuka or tsuba allowed?
Is a tsuki with the tip of the hilt/grip (tsukagashira) allowed?Wouldn't that get you a hansoku? If not, it just seems like very poor kendo and I don't think that any ref would consider it a point.

[mystic_kendoka]

OK, another question,

Is a puch with the tsuka or tsuba allowed?
Is a tsuki with the tip of the hilt/grip (tsukagashira) allowed?

definately not a point, probably a hansoku, i havent heard about anyone being stupid enough to try anything like that :P

[Joehannah]

I've been hit in the gana (sp?) with the suka, but I don't think in was kosher.

[mystic_kendoka]

gana? wat do u mean?

[ShinKenshi]

I think he meant gane. I suppose in tsubazeriai the tsuba can hit your mengane if you start getting rather aggressive.

[mystic_kendoka]

i've seen people hit men, and then just run forward, into their opponent, with their kote's and tsuba pushing into the opponent's men gane, they still got points for it

[Ignatz]

When I started Kendo about 16 years ago I learned what my teacher taught. I know now that it was "old fashioned" pre war kendo. Very rough. Foot sweeps were allowed, as were tsuka punches from tsubazeriai. Throwing your opponent to the ground and use an arm bar or submission technique or pulling off his men was ippon (BTW, a lot harder that you may think)
If your shinai was knocked out of your hand you could attack the opponent and of course he could attack you with his shinai.
Not many people do this kind of kendo anymore. People won't play with you if they think they might get hurt.
Over the years I have had to "unlearn" most of this and do standard IKF kendo because I like playing kendo. Sometimes though I revert but I don't mean to, sometimes I train with someone older and we both do it which is fun because nobody gets hurt.
The "old fashioned kendo" versus IKF kendo again opens up the question of budo vs. sport. A sensei who allows me to train in his dojo once asked me if my shinai was a sword or a stick. While I was formulating my intelligent answer, he put his finger up to his lips and said "its a stick but don't tell any old people in Japan even though they all know it."
I think this is a good point because even if it is a stick, that doesn't take anything away from it. This is not 16th century Japan and, like it or not, we are not samurai. Kendo is great fun, great strategy and a great work out. You get to win or lose depending only upon yourself. And best of all, sometimes you get your ass handed to you on a silver plate by some little 80 year old guy and you spend the next year or so trying to figure out how he did it.
Back to the original question, now if I lose my shinai I put my hands at my sides or behind me and either move away or move in to avoid being hit but I don't grab. I have already lost the hansoku and he only has a very short time to hit you for a point before yame. I have knocked many a shinai to the floor and have rarely been in posision to strike before the shinai hits the floor and I have always been under the impression that that is the time window.

[ScottUK]

i've seen people hit men, and then just run forward, into their opponent, with their kote's and tsuba pushing into the opponent's men gane, they still got points for itIsn't that what you're supposed to do? Cut men and then drive forward? If they do not get out of the way, they get tai-ataried or a faceful of kote... :D

[nodachi]

That's called straight kendo and makes people very happy, well... your sensei and the shinpan, not the person you are hitting... :)

[yohed55]

My sempai demonstrates that on me all the time :ko: