Physical exercises for Kendo

[alexpollijr]

I believe Ares has touched this issue some time ago, but I'd like to ask from active players around some questions about supplementary training:

1: Weight training

According to the fact that in kendo, just like in tennis, we need explosive movement to achieve our objectives, would it be correct to say that, using weight lifting practice, we should lift more weight in shorter series or less weight in prolonged series? Or a combination of both?

2: Wrist training

Using kowaza (small techniques), the wrists and forearms are the muscles in which we rely on. What exercises could be employed to build wrist strenght (besides various -buri types)? Wrist curls (front/reverse) with dumbbells?

3: Plyometrics

What pliometrics exerciess could be used to have an edge in speed? In kendo, we need to make the horizontal lunge faster (fumikomi) as well as the wrist snap (i.e debana men), so what exercises would achieve the best results?

4: Aerobic and Anaerobic resistence

Do you believe that aerobic exercises such as running would play an important role in kendo?

5: Lighter or Heavier?

Many people in my dojo are 'heavyweights', i .e they are in fact a little stocky, not to say fat. For a kendo player, would it be better to be of a lighter or a heavier build?

Just wanting two cents from everyone around if possible,

cheers,

[burger boy]

two cents, huh? okay , here goes...

I have no idea on questions 1 and 3.

For wrist training I use the old broom stick and a bucket method. Basically a length of rope tied to the center of a foot long piece of broomstick and the other end tied to a bucket or weights, etc. Hold the broomstick at opposite ends, palms down, and raise your arms to shoulder height. Then keeping your arms still and straight as possible, rotate the pole raising the weights off the floor, all the way up. Once there, slowly lower the weight. You can also use a palms down grip for variation. If done right, this one will get your forearms burning, and it does work the wrists.

I think that aerobic endurance would be very beneficial to any kendoka. Biking, running, anything to get the heart pumping at a good clip should do the job.

Lastly, I would say lighter is better. I run on the stocky/chubby side and have trouble with some of the footwork at times. I would think that less body weight on the feet, ankles and knees would result in better speed.

Just my thoughts...

burger boy

[Old Warrior]

For whatever its worth, as a stocky guy, I have found fencing both European and Kumdo attractive because it enable less than gifted athletes to achieve a level of skill through practice. The fact that God didn't make me tall or fast or thin does not prohibit the possibility of the attainment of substantial skill if I work hard enough.

[Sinta]

Originally posted by Old Warrior
The fact that God didn't make me tall or fast or thin does not prohibit the possibility of the attainment of substantial skill if I work hard enough.

Does that mean you do believe that if you keep practicing, you will get better? I've been frustrated for the passed few weeks, because I've seen no improvement. Talk about getting and giving hits, sometimes I feel like I'm just getting hit. *sighs* I'm just hoping that if I keep practicing I'll be better. I'm not very strong in sports as I was when I was younger.

To this thread, well I'm light build (how about very light?). I have small shoulders and weigh around 50 - 55kg (*can't believe she's talking about her weight*) But I find myself wishing I had broader shoulders, because I struggle to carry the shinaii. About being fast, maybe only in defense. Again, I feel like I have a hard time giving hits. Maybe its because when I get to jigeiko I'm already tired.

...do I dare say it? ..I am feeble?? ....*pouts childishly*

Sorry, just frustration pouring out a bit.

I don't know about the other tips, but I believe that stamina is important in kendo. Swimming, biking and aerobics I believe help out at that.

[Ares2907]

Originally posted by alexpollijr
I believe Ares has touched this issue some time ago, but I'd like to ask from active players around some questions about supplementary training:


does that mean I'm not an active player? ;)



1: Weight training

According to the fact that in kendo, just like in tennis, we need explosive movement to achieve our objectives, would it be correct to say that, using weight lifting practice, we should lift more weight in shorter series or less weight in prolonged series? Or a combination of both?


If you want to train specifically for explosive movement, then heavy weight is what you want to be lifting. As for high/low reps, the consensus seems to be low, but it depends on the training regime you are following. Just heading into the gym and going hard with heavy weights without knowing what you're doing and why is a recipe for serious injury.

Have a read of the following sites. . .
http://www.trygve.com/mfw.html (see 'starting out' and the links page for other informative sites)

www.stumptuous.com/weights.html

for ppl who want size and strength
www.hypertrophy-specific.com

Should be enough there for you to decide what (if any) weight training you want to do.



2: Wrist training
Using kowaza (small techniques), the wrists and forearms are the muscles in which we rely on. What exercises could be employed to build wrist strenght (besides various -buri types)? Wrist curls (front/reverse) with dumbbells?


Most decent gyms have equipment that you can use to do resistance and grip training for the wrists and hands. Failing that, wrist curls with bar/dumb/e-z curl bars are another good option.
Failing that a large bottle filled with sand or even a brick might suffice.
Opening beer bottles isn't a bad way to exercise them either - you can superset with bicep curls ;)



3: Plyometrics

Not too sure when it comes to plyometrics. Haven't read a lot about it.



4: Aerobic and Anaerobic resistence
Do you believe that aerobic exercises such as running would play an important role in kendo?


Yes, without a doubt. Kendo has aspects that are both aerobic and anaerobic. A decent degree of fitness in both is essential to your performance.



5: Lighter or Heavier?
Many people in my dojo are 'heavyweights', i .e they are in fact a little stocky, not to say fat. For a kendo player, would it be better to be of a lighter or a heavier build?


One thing that I love about kendo is that people of all sorts of bodyshapes and sizes are able to excell at it. Some people have a genetic predisposition to being muscular or heavyset. Being fat is a lifestyle choice in most regards however.
Being overfat is definately not going to help your kendo. Other than that you're stuck with what you can do with your genes (unless you want to juice).
Your build is not something you can change. Your bodyfat/lean body mass (lbm) content is, however something you can change. In that regard I believe it would be better to have a lower body-fat percentage and a higher lbm percentage than the (and I use the term loosely) 'normal' or recommended levels.
Personally I feel that any weight that is just along for the ride is just slowing me down. If it's taking up space on my frame, I want it to be contributing something useful (cushioning vital organs notwithstanding).
given identical volume, lbm weighs about three times as much as fat. The average non-gym going soul could probably gain several kilos of lean body mass and not change their physical appearance a great deal.
As you've probably guessed, fitness is a bit of a pet subject of mine, I could probably go on about it all day. Suffice it to say that kendo is one of those things where broad-range fitness is required and players who want to reach the elite levels will need to seriously take into account the extra-curricular activity they do, and couple this with diet, psychology and other aspects.
HTH.

[alexpollijr]

Originally posted by Ares2907

does that mean I'm not an active player? ;)

'Course not. It just happened to sound that way, sorry about that :)

Have a read of the following sites. . .
http://www.trygve.com/mfw.html (see 'starting out' and the links page for other informative sites)
www.stumptuous.com/weights.html
for ppl who want size and strength
www.hypertrophy-specific.com
Should be enough there for you to decide what (if any) weight training you want to do.

Thanks for the websites. I already have a weight lifting program going on for a while, but I was focusing on less weight/more reps. Guess that'll have to change. I'll talk to the 'leotard clad' instructor, as someone referred to 'gym buns' on other thread early on.

As you've probably guessed, fitness is a bit of a pet subject of mine, I could probably go on about it all day. Suffice it to say that kendo is one of those things where broad-range fitness is required and players who want to reach the elite levels will need to seriously take into account the extra-curricular activity they do, and couple this with diet, psychology and other aspects.

Really? No kidding. Anyway, that's exactly the point I'm after. Just attending normal practice isn't enough to achieve a higher level. That's why I chose to do a weight lifting/fitness program a while ago. Of course it's paying off already but it's hard to develop a 'kendo-specific' program when your instructor knows nothing about kendo. So I picked up a standard all-around program. And recently the plyometric issue is bugging me, because there 's very little information available about it aside for a few websites that often manage to overestimate the issue or contradict themselves completely.

[/B]

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Sinta
Does that mean you do believe that if you keep practicing, you will get better?

Yes, you will get better if you keep practicing. Kendo rewards the patient and persistent student. We have had many physically talented people start kendo and quit out of boredom or frustration. It's only the stubborn ones that continue. Anyone can improve, and you can keep improving through your whole kendo career. That's one of the things I find so appealing about kendo - it's a life-long sport that doesn't require you to be a jock to start with.

This isn't to say that natural athletic ability doesn't have a part to play. Those who are talented and stubborn excel. However, I can guarantee you that you will get better with practice and that you can even surpass those with more athletic ability who aren't as persistent.

I've been frustrated for the passed few weeks

A slump of a few weeks is nothing. Just keep slugging, it will work itself out.

[nodachi]

"I've been frustrated for the passed few weeks "

Focus on the little things where you make progress. I can be happy after weeks of little or no progress by looking for something, ANYTHING, no matter how small, that wasn't necessarily fixed, but was a little better when I left compared to when I entered. If you learned a new technique, little trick, a small adjustment to your form, anything, then you can leave happy.

Small, minute improvements and changes on the short term after each practice will turn into big improvements if you look at your kendo on a long term basis. Kendo lasts forever, ne?

[PhilMcLaughlin]

Hi Sinta

as the others have said - just keep turning up, trying your hardest & concentrate on technique - you will improve.

Mostly you are not the best judge of your own progression - trust your sempai & sensei and just keep going. Dont worry if you find it harder to attack & 'score' because as you get better the level is raised

you will really notice it when a group of beginners start until then keep bashing away !

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by PhilMcLaughlin
Dont worry if you find it harder to attack & 'score' because as you get better the level is raised
Word. Many people don't get this - your sensei/sempai isn't playing their best kendo against you, they are playing teaching kendo. Just because you can't hit them this week when you hit them last week doesn't mean you're not getting better. You can't use your fellow students as a gauge either as you are all getting better together.

[munenmuso]

Hi Sinta,

Is your name the tagalog term for love? Anyway back to the topic, that's why you should be thankful that you chose kendo as THE sport suitable for you. You can practice it from seven years old to seventy and above without worrying that your kendo as you get old will deteriorate. This is even the opposite scenario compared to other physical sports. Like if you are a sprinter, you have to compete before you reach the prime of your career to maximize your potentials as a runner. And if you get old, say 35 above, you have to choose another career because you will start to feel the tolls of those years of training plus your body cannot cope up anymore from the rigorous training of sprinting. Unlike in kendo, if you take it seriously with dedication and determination, don't forget the proper guidance of a competent sensei, you will notice that as you grow old that your kendo keeps on improving and imrpoving even if your body cannot perform as you did twenty years earlier. Even those fast and healthy upstarts will find it very difficult to even touch you. This is the usual scenario in the dojo, even the 70 yo sensei are given the utmost respect because of their immense skill, their invincible here you know.Even the fourth and fifth dan are no match for them. But you have to practice, practice and practice. And finally practice again (sounds monotonous?).

You will never grow old and outgrow from kendo. There is always a room for improvement and discovery is always daily and in every practice. You will only find it frustrating when your asking for an easy way to do it, say an overnight miracle, but nevertheless kendo is a lifetime dedication. That is where I actually failed.:D



munenmuso

[Ostrak]

I'm still new to Kendo but here's something you can try to practice explosive movements in weighlifting. It's a powerlifting technique and I'll use the bench example but it's translatable into most lifts (NOT all, i.e. You wouldn't catch me trying it for deadlift).

Take a pair of dumbells...something middle weight for you (about 15 reps max but typically this comes at end of workout and you might get 5-8 good reps per set of this exercise).
Lying on your back (you're benching) lower the dumbells slowly from the top position (try and take about 5 seconds to lower them); pause with a full stretch at the bottom for 1-2 seconds; then explode to top position; start over.

Most important point is do NOT sacrifice good form just to lift more weight. There is no shame in lifting light weight and you will see much more improvement if you lift with good form. Also, if you sacrifice form you are more likely to get hurt.

Also, I vary my routine but that's just a matter of preference. I have friends that do the same weight, same reps for every set for each cycle. Then the next cycle they up the weight (e.g. 5% more than last cycle per lift). I don't feel like I've accomplished anything doing that and I find it boring to be in the gym lifting like that. I think it's most important to enjoy your time in the gym. First, find what type of lifting you enjoy. Second, once you enjoy your workouts vary what you do until you find what gives you the best results. Everyone is different.

[Stan]

Hi Folks,

This is my first post. Greetings.

I agree with Ares! However, I am going to add some more. Explosiveness is a function of strength. To increase strength one needs to lift weights (apply resistance). To enhance performance in kendo one needs to develop relative strength (a function of absolute strength, if you and I can each lift 100lbs and your body weight is lower than mine you have a greater relative strength). Imagine that you can generate 250 lbs when you push off with your left foot. If you weigh 200lbs then you have 50 lbs in reserve - now imagine if you could generate 300lbs of force?If one follows a body building program from some magazine you will not be helping yourself. I have wasted a lot of time training against my kendo instead of enhancing my kendo. I suggest doing some searches on google for Charles Poliquin, Charles Staley, Tudor Bompa, and Paul Chek. Their experience with training athletes is outstanding. A who's who of pro teams.

With regards to the aerobics I would suggest more a sort of interval training (a combination of aerobic and anaerobic). It is my belief that the human body is designed to be walking or running like hell - not the in between. And for plyometrics, develop a base of strength before adding plyometrics to your regime. Good Luck.

Stan

[Old Warrior]

Sinta

I started fencing (European) at 39. When I was 45, I had the privilege of training with US Olympians and the members of our #1 National Epee Teams. I had been taking 2 private lessons a week for 6 years and fencing for hours on Saturdays. With the exception of a couple of individuals, I was able to beat everyone, on occasion. For a slightly over weight desk jockey, 20 years older than most of my opponents, I was satisfied with the concept that years of practice and stubborness can win over youth and skill.

I am very new to Kumdo (and now 54), but I can see the same natural laws applying. Hard work and practice (of somewhat unnatural skills) can allow for consistent improvement. You can't gauge yourself against others who are also training, although when your spar with classmates, you do get a sense of improving skills. Of course, when fencing with someone who is much better, you would be foolish to think that because you appear to be holding your own, that you suddenly know "everything".

I ask myself at the end of each class, what one thing do I think I learned today? When I rehash the class, in my mind, I am never at a loss to come up with a list points of which I have developed a better understanding.

[Sinta]

Again I want to thank you all for the wonderful advice and suggestions :) It means a lot to me. I know I know, all must be thinking "newbies, wishing for an overnight miracle ;)" . I guess I'm just scared of failing. I've always wanted to do kendo, so it worries me when I think it might not be the sport for me. But again, thank you for all your encouragement :) I'll stick at it. Who knows? I'll keep ya'll up to date in my progress... *smiles*


Originally posted by munenmuso

Is your name the tagalog term for love?

Actually, isn't it beloved? My Asian name is Sinta Liwliwa (given by grandma at 14 ;) )Sinta- Tagalog LiwLiwa- Illocano..together they mean something like beloved inspiration.. ^_^

Okay, now let's get back to the topic of this thread. Sorry if i made it drift. I try to avoid doing that so... sorrysorrysorry..

[Gothic_Coop]

I will tell you this much you dont need much strenght for kendo i am a strong person I used to bench over 400lb. I love this sport for the Waza. The Sword is the equlizer no mater what your size or strenght of fitness level.

COOP

[Inouye02]

when fencing with someone who is much better, you would be foolish to think that because you appear to be holding your own, that you suddenly know "everything". old warrior..

that is sooo true old warrior , i know some guys who for some reason now think they are hot shit just because they got a cheap shot in ..

[kendomushi]

I agree with Gothic_Coop. Part of what initially drew me to kendo is the fact that my size and strength mean virtually nothing, in fact sometimes might even be a disadvantage. That is part of when we talk about ki, ken, tai they are in the order of ki- sprirt, ken - sword (skill), and tai - body. All are of importance and use, you do need all three, but the body is of least importance in the three.

[Ares2907]

I'm more of the opinion that ki ken ad tai are of equal importance. Take one away and the other two are meaningless. As far as not needing strength - you tend not to need it as you do for judo or grappling type martial arts (for example). That having been said, you can use strength training to make a marked difference in your kendo ability.
Size and strength are certainly not an indicator of skill in kendo. That is a great equalizer. But to say that an 'unfit' person is not at a disadvantage to a 'fitter' person (with other aspects being equal), is imnsho incorrect.

[Stan]

There is a mis-understanding of how the term strength is being used. I agree that because person A is stronger than person B does not mean that A would win a battle in Kendo. But, if Person A wants to improve his speed (ie. explosiveness), that is a function of strength. If a sprinter wants to run faster, in addition to developing technique he/she must become stronger to become faster. If one wants to handle a shinai more easily one does many many suburi...to make one stronger so one can perform better. The original post was asking about advice in regards to training for Kendo and that is the basis for my advice. Besides I would not describe Iishida, Eiga, Miyazaki, Iwasa, or Ando as weaklings. I have never trained with any of these people but I am quite certain that they do some form of strength training in addition to kendo.

Stan

[kendomushi]

I don't mean to say that you can eliminate any of the three. but an excess of spirit will get you farther in kendo than being in perfect physical condition.

Improving speed is indeed a function of strength. Perhaps we should be using a term like musculature, or lifting force? Some level of strength is needed, but not just raw strength. To inprove speed for example not only requires ensuring the leg muscles are strong, but also improving reflexes and awareness of the situation.

When we say strength is not important in kendo, we mean the ability to drive the shinai through the opponent. This is usually based on past sports experiences, I for example played american football until I was 29. My strength was an integral part of my ability, it made me able to hit harder, run harder, and tackle harder; and the harder I could hit the more it might make up for a weak grip, or not hitting square. In kendo, being able to hit correctly & swiftly is far more important than being able to simply hit hard, and hitting harder does not make up for other mistakes in your technique.

[Stan]

Yeah, I do not reccomend crushing someones cervical vertabrae with a men strike. I am also not suggesting that someone who can bench press a house has some kind of advantage. I too played football, rugby, and like any other good Canadian...Ice Hockey. It is only in certain Football positions such as a linebacker or lineman does someone need to get bigger (ie. stronger and heavier) to be effective. Otherwise, most sports need some kind of explosiveness (power = the ability to generate strength quickly). For example in Kendo we kendoka do a lot of lunging. If someone could lunge with more speed and less effort I dare say his kendo would improve (given he is able to execute the technique to begin with).

[alexpollijr]

It's nonsense to say that physical prowess does not play a huge part in kendo.

Take aerobic/anaerobic capabilities for instance. A fitter person can go through hours of training in a breeze. An unfir person tires after one set of kirikaeshi. At the end of the three hours of practice, who'll have benefitted the most from practice? Why do old Hachidan sensei have those 'popeye arms'? That's from suburi, which is strenght training. Why do they have these powerful arms? So that they can swing the shinai faster and in a more controlled fashion.

Sure, reflexes and skill are still the key to kendo. But a capable bodycan give you an enormous edge against the competition, being international kendo (I mean, outside of Japan and Korea) an amateur sport.

So, most of the time, if you get two kendoka, one fat and weak (in terms of muscular power) and one lean and muscular, after two years chances are that the second will have progressed far more since things are so much easier to him.

[Ares2907]

afa an alternate word for strength, try 'power'
It's what the Japanese use also (chikara). It seems to fit nicely.
I'm sure most kendoka have heard the phrase 'chikara tsukaisugi' (You're using too much power) at one time or another in their kendo career.

[KhawMengLee]

What I love about kendoka is seeing them overcome obstacles with what they have.

eg. girls who are of smaller build using speed and technique to overcome larger opponents.

At the same time size is shortcoming/or blessing depending on how you look at it.

eg. I was doing a mock ippon shobu shiai with my sempai who is on the medium build side and I was watching his footwork. As I pressed forward with seme, he stepped back and was about to move back forward. Seeing his legs were unbalanced I did a straight men cut and he blocked but I really threw my hip into the cut and when I hit him I sent him backwards off balance. WHich allowed me to get a nice solid men in to score.

Its life, we make do with what we have...

[KhawMengLee]

oops, forgot to mention I'm on the stocky build side...:D

[berghaan]

Hi all,

Well I am certainly no expert on the subject but I find squeezing a "stress ball" with my left hand very helpfull.

It makes me more aware of using my left hand instead of hammering with my right.

Just figured it might be helpfull for someone else also.

-Mark

[Paburo]

i think strenght in kendo is only important for 2 things:

1- uchi. but i don't mean strenght at the end of the cut like clubbers. i mean enough strenght to keep your cut centered and straight in its trajectory(i.e. kiriotoshi waza)

2- tai. at least some strenght is needed to keep your body 'bubble'. be able to lower center and keep balance and kamae even if the blatantly push you.

i think if you have this, then its all about speed, technique and reflexes.

i don't think you have to go to a gym and body build to become faster. the muscles you need to grow are the ones you use WHEN doing suburi or using your sword. thus, i think suburitou are the best thing to build up strenght in kendo.

so say, if you lift some bar with 300lbs what is the point? you probably gain a lot of muscle, but is that the muscle you need for kendo?
to me it's sort of like training hard 40000 hours of hockey to do well on your next tennis tournament.

[munenmuso]

I'm on the slim side. I'f I will gain more muscle and more power, I'm gonna rip those clubbers with all might so when they remove their men they will never be recognized even by their own mother.

Strength and weight are factors obvious in kendo but not necessarily an advantage. My heavy and stronger opponent easily pushes me away during tsuba tserai because im lighter than him but faster. I take advantage of the situation by shifting or absorbing the opponents strength and momentum, since its a bit of futility on my part to resist a hercules, and hit him a fast menuchi or kote in the process . But still, I recognize his strength as a threath and a force to reckon that someday even if im faster and agile and his strong but slow, time will come when he can suddenly shift his gear with that brute strength and turn the tides.

[alexpollijr]

Originally posted by Paburo

i think if you have this, then its all about speed, technique and reflexes.

i don't think you have to go to a gym and body build to become faster. the muscles you need to grow are the ones you use WHEN doing suburi or using your sword. thus, i think suburitou are the best thing to build up strenght in kendo.

so say, if you lift some bar with 300lbs what is the point? you probably gain a lot of muscle, but is that the muscle you need for kendo?
to me it's sort of like training hard 40000 hours of hockey to do well on your next tennis tournament.

What is speed if not muscular power? How long do you perform when out of air? Poorly I suppose. Therefore, a longer-winded player has an advantage over you. Also, someone who can lunge faster (i.e has more leg strenght) has an advantage over you. Someone who can swing the shinai faster (i.e has more forearm and wrist strenght) has an advantage over you. Why do Sprinters, Football, tennis and whatever professional sport players 'waste time' n a gym? They have technique, they have reflexes. Why would they do such a thing them, if they could keep just practicing their sport?

Of course, the difference does not show in the lower levels or even in everyday practice. It comes to shine in medium to large competitions, like Nationals.

[mingshi]

I don't believe there is anything in Kendo that requires strength at all.

Everything is about how you can use your own body and the shinai, no matter how small/big, short/tall and skinny/fat you are. Kendo focuses much more on the effectiveness, rather than the physical shape of an individual. There shouldn't be any one-sided disadvantage for anyone, because for any disadvantage you have, there is an opposite advantage. All is relative. Everyone is equal with a shinai in their hands.

Training is about how, by accumulating experiences, help you to understand more about NOT to use physical strength.

About doing Suburi... Not sure if this is true, but correct me if I m wrong, as this is what I interpret over the days:- Yes you need something heavy. Yes you need thousands of them. But no you dont have to be fast; no you are not trying to build up muscles.
Suburi (as I was told) should be big and relaxing. If you concentrate more on using power from the lower body than the upper part it shouldn't be difficult. Doing suburi with heavier bokken/suburito etc. is to tell you that the sword will drop on its own, and you will develop less bad habits like flicking shinai. Everything comes from "hip power".

When you meet one or two Hachidan who is small and not muscular, you'd see my point.

These were told by various Senpai/Sensei, and I am just parrot-ing. Again I would just quote Hyaku, "It's not about how fast you cut, but when."

[mingshi]

In addition ot that,


Originally posted by alexpollijr
What is speed if not muscular power?

Speed = Timing + Distance

It's all science.

[Gothic_Coop]

[b]Everything comes from "hip power".[b/]

I find this very true I have wrestled for many years and the Hips have so much power in them. I am now learning how to use my Hips to swing in kendo. Also years of cutting wood, have helped me in the arm strenght department.


About doing Suburi... more you do the better you get. If you have good form.

That is what I did in wrestling so I will stick with the same concepts here.

L8ter

[Ares2907]

Okay, gotta pull a few people up here.
Paburo, gonna start with you


i don't think you have to go to a gym and body build to become faster. the muscles you need to grow are the ones you use WHEN doing suburi or using your sword. thus, i think suburitou are the best thing to build up strenght in kendo.


Gym or other extraneous exercise is not absolutely necessary to become faster, but are you saying that these things make no difference? If that is the case you are incorrect.
As for suburito being best for kendo based functional strength, upon what are you basing this assertion?
Suburi with a heavy object is not going to build your legs, for example.




so say, if you lift some bar with 300lbs what is the point? you probably gain a lot of muscle, but is that the muscle you need for kendo?


Depends on what sort of lifting you are doing. By the sound of things, you don't appear to know a lot about lifting. It might pay to do a bit of reading before bagging it.



to me it's sort of like training hard 40000 hours of hockey to do well on your next tennis tournament.

To me it is making an investment in my kendo future. I use my time in the dojo to work on my kendo. I use my time in the gym to work on building muscles that I use in kendo. One compliments the other. My gym work is tailored specifically to work on kendo-specific muscles. It also helps to build my anaerobic fitness which is very handy when kakari geiko rolls around.

Mingshi, you're next.


I don't believe there is anything in Kendo that requires strength at all.

You gotta be shitting me. Holding your shinai in kamae (or at all) requires strength. Holding your body erect requires strength. I think you are talking about power. It's arguing semantics again, but necessary to do in this case.



Kendo focuses much more on the effectiveness, rather than the physical shape of an individual.


Effectiveness of what specifically? If you're not specific, it just sound like you're parroting something someone told you once verbatim, without questioning or understanding. I'm sure that's not what you're doing, but that's what it sounds like.



There shouldn't be any one-sided disadvantage for anyone, because for any disadvantage you have, there is an opposite advantage.


Um, bullshit. Why shouldn't there be a disadvantage? If I am more serious about my kendo than some fat slob who turns up once a month, what sort of opposite advantage are they going to have over me? (Me feeling sorry for them and letting them sit down for half the session not withstanding)



All is relative. Everyone is equal with a shinai in their hands


Sorry, not buying. All what is relative? relative to what? Too flowery and unspecific. Everyone is most definately not equal with a shinai in their hands.


As far as the strength/power argument goes, I am not saying that you have to be a beefcake to be effective at kendo. What I am saying is that you can use strength training to enhance your kendo performance.

As far as it being the 'when' rather than the 'how fast' that is more decisive when cutting, true to an extent. However to say that speed is not a factor is nonsense, as is saying that strength plays no part in determining one's speed.

Speed = timing + distance?
Um no.
You could not convince me of this even if you started talking yesterday.
speed is a function of the ability of muscle to leverage bone (without getting too deep into physics, inertia and physiology et al). Having perfect timing and sense of ma-ai will not make you faster. It may help you overcome an opponent but that has nothing to do with speed.

It's all science is guaranteed to lose you an argument. It's like saying 'it's all magic' 'it's all alien technology' Unless you can be specific about it (quote Newton's theorems or dazzle me with detailed explanations of ATP breaking down into ADP during anaerobic exercise, but to say 'it's science' like that explains everything makes me want to rip off your arms and beat you to death with them (oops, must be that roid rage thing all my friends said would happen))

As far as the non-muscular hachi-dans, ever seen a hachi-dan with their shirt off? I've seen quite a few. Most of them were pretty ripped. Just because you're not a beefcake, does not mean you are not strong. I'm willing to bet a lot of these old blokes are plenty strong. Doesn't mean they use a lot of power . . .(are we getting the picture yet?)
Now that I've more or less finished my rant, I'd like to say a couple of things.

1. Lifting weight is not necessarily going to make you a beefcake. It takes a lot of food, a speficic training regime and good genetics to get 'hyooge'.

2. Muscularity does not equal clumsiness, oafishness, lack of flexibility, stupidity and a number of other wonderful stereotypes that gym-rats tend to be labelled with.

3. You do not need to go to the gym to be good at kendo. Working out with a program tailored to compliment your kendo training will likely have a positive effect on your kendo. Working out at home with a suburito will likely have a positive effect on your kendo. What do you think doing both is likely to do for you?

4. Strength does not mean power. Power does not mean strength. Nor does strength directly relate to the amount of muscle carried on your frame.

5. If you don't know a lot about the subject material you are arguing against, chances are you're going to botch your argument. Google is a great tool for research.

That'll do for now. . .

[KhawMengLee]

http://animatedtv.about.com/library/graphics/sumowrestler.jpg

BEEFCAKE!BEEEEEFFFCAKE!!!!

[kendokamax]

I used to think build in kendo wasnt a big asset,

but after seeing the members of Team canada, I have to tell you most of them are build up. Same thing goes for all the police kendoka..they have huge fore arm. Would you say that Police kendo is not the best kendo in the world?

In kendo you use your muscles....if they are in better shape you have an advantage over someone with the same "skills" as you..

sorry my post isnt very scientific, but i just wanted to say that I agree that going to the gym would help your kendo...

but again... I never been to a gym yet......

btw Ares can I get a good "fitness" program in Budai? I wanted to start working out over there.

[JSchmidt]

On the same note, I've seen a fair few 'chubby' hachi-dans...

Undoubtedly, fitness will help, but it wont make up for skill and/or talent. The question is if you think that you will gain enough from going to gym, to make it worth it. In my case no, I'd rather spend that time in the dojo.
I do, though, cycle a fair bit, but that's just as much because I like cycling :). (Just got a new set of Mavic wheels, yummy!)
Kendo-players do all seem to have broad shoulders, though :). (Male and female alike).

Jakob

[Paburo]

ok first of all. i might be very ignorant but i don't know how can you guys associate strenght/power with resistance. marathon/triathlon runners are not super strong bulky, and yet they have above-human resistance against tiredness. sure, they are in very good shape, but i don't think they lift weights to become more resistant.

i agree being resistant is very important in kendo. cause even if you are super good, if you get tired easily it's game over.

ares >>
my point is that you work out the EXACT muscles that you need for kendo while... doing kendo. (thus my theory of suburitou, and perhaps wearing a heavier armour (or vest weights?) while doing kendo would help a lot too i think)
just doing normal kendo builds your legs(+body). if you do kendo with a heavier weapon and a heavier armour, won't it build your legs(and your body) even more?

i'm not an expert on the matter but our body has like 650+ muscles. i also know that muscles work in a contraction manner and in 'pairs'. so i think if you benefit some muscles(the wrong ones) in the gym you might be doing more harm than help.

now, ares seems to have all the specific muscles you use in kendo pipointed and also the way to work them out succesfully while not holding a sword.

if this is true i'd honestly like to take a look at that training program. with his permission, i'd like to translate it and add it to our dojo page so that other kenshi of the world can benefit from it.

[JSchmidt]

There's a world of difference between the exercise a marathon runner does and what you do in kendo.
Kendo is probably better compared to a middle distance runner, where you still need explosive power and speed.
Also, if you do a 'generic' all-round work out program, I doubt you can do any harm.
I'm no gym fan (I find it *extremly* boring), but I'm surprised at the resistance to it on this board.

Jakob

[Ostrak]

Originally posted by Paburo
i don't know how can you guys associate strenght/power with resistance. marathon/triathlon runners are not super strong bulky, and yet they have above-human resistance against tiredness. sure, they are in very good shape, but i don't think they lift weights to become more resistant.

Actually quite a few (particularly triathletes) do lift weights. I think you're confusing going to gym and lifting weights with becoming a body builder. Perhaps I missed it on this thread but who said that being "super strong bulky" is the objective when Kendoists go to the gym? You don't have to look like Arnold Schwarzenneger to get benefits from lifting weights.

I have to agree with JSchmidt and say that Kendo is better compared with middle distance running (although personally I think it can tend to go more towards sprinting or better yet the hurdles). These runners actually spend a lot of time in the gym, working both their legs and their upper bodies.

Paburo, it's hard for me to find a place to start explaining the application of lifting weights to Kendo to you. It appears from your post that you've never lifted weights (although you do advocate resistance training which is similar)-do you do any exercise outside of the dojo and if so, do you feel that exercise benefits your Kendo? If the only exercise you do is Kendo perhaps you should try another exercise and decide if an exericse that is not Kendo specific benefits you. I bet it will.

[Stan]

In response to Ares - AMEN! A little harsh perhaps. There does seem to be a lot of resistance to weight training (cross training). One additional remark about speed = timing+ distance....actually the formula is speed(velocity)=distance/time (as in km/hr). And speed as in how fast someone can move is definitely a function of strength(power). Power=force*speed.

I would like to recommend a link http://www.myodynamics.com/articles/m.a.strength.html

This will help explain some of the concepts that are being tossed around. The author is Charles Staley and he is highly regarded in the US and his list of clients include many top athletes and pro teams.

[alexpollijr]

Very interesting article.

Thanks Stan

[Neil Gendzwill]

I'll add another amen. Superior skill can beat strength and speed but all else being equal strength and speed will carry the day. You owe it to yourself to be fit, it will make the best of what you've got. Aerobic fitness helps especially - amazing how much easier it is to be skillful when you're not sucking wind.

As far as these old hachidans being weak or something - I always recall someone telling me about seeing a 75 year-old hachidan in the steam room - "his calves were more like thighs".

[Paburo]

what can i say stan, but thanks a lot for that link!

it does explain in a waaaay better way what i tried to say since the beggining.


...For athletes who need absolute strength (throwers in track and field, football linemen, etc.), both methods are used extensively. First, bodybuilding methods are used, followed by nervous system training. The result is an increase in bodyweight and absolute strength. As the athlete becomes larger, however, relative strength decreases. For martial artists and other athletes who depend upon relative strength, bodybuilding methods should be used sparingly, unless a higher weight class is desired...

...Muscles work in pairs- for every muscle in the body, there is another muscle that is capable of opposing its force. This "pairing" mechanism is how we are able to move with precision of movement and speed. However, when one part of this pair becomes too strong in relation to the other, force output capability suffers.

Unfortunately, many athletes unknowingly reinforce this imbalance every time they train, thinking they are respecting the principle of specificity by training only the prime movers (or "agonists"). An example would be a martial artist who reasons that since the quadriceps muscle extends the leg during kicking, the quadriceps should receive the brunt of the training focus. Before long, the hamstrings (which are the antagonists in kicking movements) are weak in proportion to the quads, and power output declines. At this point, the student may conclude that weight training "slows you down," because for him, it did...

...The ability to apply muscular force rapidly is called rate of force development, or RFD. While hypertrophy training slightly improves absolute strength, it has a negligible effect on RFD. Training with heavy weights significantly improves absolute strength, but again, the RFD remains largely unchanged. Only when speed strength methods (plyometrics, ballistic training, etc.) are used, is the RFD significantly improved...



now that plyometric/ballistic thing sounds interesting. seems complicated and hard to find though. i doubt your regular beefcake gym trainer knows about it.

i should look further into those concepts and along with that and stan's link i have enough translation work for long... aah

[alexpollijr]

Originally posted by Paburo

now that plyometric/ballistic thing sounds interesting. seems complicated and hard to find though. i doubt your regular beefcake gym trainer knows about it.



Still the prejudice persists. They DO know about it. That's their profession. And this frame of mind is part of what keeps kendo an amateur sport and, in consequence, what keeps international kendo so very much inferior to Korean and Japanese Kendo.

[Stan]

Paburo,

I am pleased that you enjoyed the article and yes it does re-inforce what you have written in earlier post but what you may be overlooking here is that plyometrics (which do not require weights), do require a STRONG base (probably achieved through weight training) to prevent injury. Ballistic training (which does involve the use of weights) also requires a STRONG base to avoid injury. I am no doctor or fitness consultant but be careful if you do decide to add this to your training. I have found a trainer who follows the "Paul Chek"(another fitness guru) school of thought and I am very pleased with the way that my training has enhanced my kendo. Good Luck!

[Ares2907]

Another interesting article from the same site is the following:

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/exclusive/staley/ss.htm

also check the link to the routine at the bottom of the article:
http://mesomorphosis.com/exclusive/staley/ssprogram.htm

Enjoy.

[burger boy]

Ares,
Thanks for the links...really interesting articles.

Just curious, what's your weight-lifting routine like? I believe that you mentioned that your routine was very specialized for kendo.

I've been trying to get my basic workout routine more kendo specific and the link provides some good ideas, was wondering what you do?

Thanks.

burger boy

[Ares2907]

At the moment I would describe my routine as kendo-specific in a long-term sense. At the moment I am focused on adding lean body mass and gaining strength and am following more or less a hypertrophy-specific routine and will continue to do so until I reach my target weight and strength.
During that time, I will be constructing a routine based on increasing speed strength to see what difference this makes in my kendo. Just from the initial lifting and the size/strength gains that I have made, I feel that my kendo has improved markedly. It's a little difficult to quantify the 'what' and 'how' of these improvements, however if going on shiai success alone, which probably isn't ideal, I would most definately wipe the floor with pre-lifting me.

As far as kendo-specific exercises go, I'm all for exercises that work large muscle groups together, rather than isolation (with the exception of maybe calves).
That would be:
Squats / Deadlifts,
Military press,
Wide-grip pull up

as the main three (I tend to like squats better than deads, although those more learned than me say that deads are a better 'overall body' exercise. I might start alternating them).
The rest of my workout includes:

calf raises for lower legs,
stiff-legged deadlifts or lying leg curls for hams,
Seated row, bent-over row or lat-pulldown for back,
Bicep curls, tricep pushdown for arms
Bench Press,
Shrugs,
Sit-ups.

I occasionally do lateral raises or front raises to hit other areas of my shoulders, but only if I'm feeling particularly genki. I work out on non-kendo nights as I find that squats tend to kill my ability to use my legs for anything much afterward.
I haven't included sets/reps here because the HST workout is not static with these. Have a look at the website if interested, it's posted earlier in this thread.
Gotta say that I'm no gym expert, I'm not a beefcake but the subject interests me a great deal so I read a lot. If this stuff draws your interest, great, but do your own research before adopting any of it.
HTH.

[burger boy]

Ares,
Thanks for all of the information. I'm definitely going to hit the books and see what I can find on the subject and use your routine as a starting point for my own proram and see what works for me.

Thanks again.

burger boy

[titus]

1: Weight training

For me, I concentrate on low reps with heavy weights. I would agree that explosive movement is key, and this helps me alot in that regard. I've also noticed I can knock aside the blades of most other kendokas very easily if they don't work out, it gives me a huge advantage.

2: Wrist training

I don't work my wrists specifically with exercise, because I know from past sports experience that it is very easy to overdo it and give yourself carpal tunnel, etc. I do deadlifting as part of my normal workout routine and that already gives my wrists and forearms a great workout.

3: Plyometrics

Practice with a weighted shinai helps me alot here. It's about 1.1kg total.

4: Aerobic and Anaerobic resistence

I personally can't run or do that kind of extended, high impact work because of surgery I had a year ago. Skipping rope for a long time helps endurance as well as abdominal and calf muscles.

5: Lighter or Heavier?

I try to stay on the light side of things because I find I'm faster, more healthy and less of a target to hit. The only advantage I can see to being heavier would be that you could have more muscle and therefore could be stronger and faster. However, if you're lighter you have less weight to move around and could be faster that way, plus if you keep your body fat low you can be both muscular and light.

In the end though, I think skill and experience are the key. Two people with the identical skills and physical conditioning, but different body types, would probably be evenly matched. Pros and cons cancel out.

[titus]

Originally posted by Ares2907

As far as kendo-specific exercises go, I'm all for exercises that work large muscle groups together, rather than isolation (with the exception of maybe calves).
That would be:
Squats / Deadlifts,
Military press,
Wide-grip pull up

as the main three (I tend to like squats better than deads, although those more learned than me say that deads are a better 'overall body' exercise. I might start alternating them).
The rest of my workout includes:

calf raises for lower legs,
stiff-legged deadlifts or lying leg curls for hams,
Seated row, bent-over row or lat-pulldown for back,
Bicep curls, tricep pushdown for arms
Bench Press,
Shrugs,
Sit-ups.

HTH.

Hi Ares, just wanted to give you a little warning from friends' experiences. Be careful with the wide-grip pullups, they can waste your shoulders permanently. Using a shoulder width grip is much safer, which is what I'm doing now after having two friends hurt themselves with the wide grip. Also, the stiff-legged deadlifts can kill your lower back so be careful there too.

My routine is actually quite similar to yours. I like to use mostly compound movements, and focus most on muscle areas that will improve my posture and overall strength. I find this helps me most in Kendo:

- Full deadlifts
- Shoulder width pullups (alternate hands facing away and toward the body, the former uses the back more, latter includes the biceps)
- French press/Skullcrusher (you can lift more weight than with military press)
- Weighted crunches

I cut out all my other exercises because over-exercising will make you gain less muscle or keep you static.

[JSchmidt]

"I personally can't run or do that kind of extended, high impact work because of surgery I had a year ago. "

Cycling or swimming is probably your answer. Both are virtually no-impact exercise and can easily be tailored to all kinds of aerobic/anaerobic exercise.

Jakob

[Neil Gendzwill]

I don't like to run either. I find stair-climbers easy on the knees, plus you can read while you sweat.

[alexpollijr]

Since I work (and practice) in a University, I could get to talk about plyometrics with the people from the Physical Education Grad. Course.

According to them, there is no 'generic' plyometric program that could noticeably benefit kendo players. An example of that is the box jump (when you put a box about 50cm high on your side and jump up and down on it). Any vertical jumps are not going to help ( I feel quite dumb reading it now. Seems so obvious).

So, it seems that the plyometric training which might enhance kendo abilities is, in fact, embedded in normal kendo renshu. Kendo exercises which , according to them, might include plyometry are Haya(choyaku) suburi, Oikomi (the one in which you cross the dojo doing tobikomi men against a retreating aite) and the usual tobikomi and hiki waza practice.

[Marine_Boy]

All this talk about strength and nothing about the relative merits of stretching and flexibility.

One mustn't forget that strength also comes from flexibility.

Stan

[Marine_Boy]

Oh I forgot to say this too.

Relax your ... (insert appropriate body part)!!!!

Speed does come from strength, but I think that it is also a function of timing. What I mean is, when to "inject" the strength into the technique and when to remove it. It's harder than you think! This I think gives a certain amount of relaxation or ease in our movements.

Stan

[Old Warrior]

For me, the most important physical exercise before and after Kumdo is how quickly I can get the ice pack on my knee and how quickly I can down 2 tablets of Alleve. It may not increase my speed or stamina but it does mean that I will make the next class.

[titus]

JSchmidt, thanks for the point about swimming and cycling being good low impact sports. I personally go for swimming because I always worry about those stories of cyclists becoming impotent (rather not take the chance and become a statistic).

Only problem with swimming is that I won't go near public pools, worked as a lifeguard in senior high and know WAY too much about how unclean they are. So instead I make a habit of seeing my friends who have their own pools.

Marine_Boy also make a good point about stretching. This would be my number one failing point. I hate stretching, I'm too impatient, but need too even more because I workout and that shortens everything.

Also, a point to Old Warrior, have you thought of seeing a specialist to get some special exercises to strengthen your knees? Most people don't even know this is possible. I have a friend in sports medicine and he fixed up my dad's knee, which is weak still from lots of football, tennis and boxing back in his high school and university days. Also, look for a sprung floor, as mentioned in another post here on the board.

[alexpollijr]

That reminds me that e-bogu.com sells a knee supporter that should help a little bit too

[Old Warrior]

Thanks to all. I wear a brace because any twisting type torque would do me in. I had therapy after the initial mishap and I know the exercises. The problem seems to be an inflammation that makes it very "sore". Sore doesn't prevent me from training but it eliminates any possibility of sitting in seiza and sonkyo [sp?] is only a wish. I can live with soreness but surgery will put me out of commission for months and who knows if it will be successful or if the subsequent arthritis will be worse than the current state.

Who said getting old is easy?

[JSchmidt]

" I always worry about those stories of cyclists becoming impotent"

That's very very few and usually people who ignore the symptoms. (Pain, inflammation, etc).
Also, you have to spend alot of hours (sitting wrongly) in the saddle for that to happen.

Jakob

[Neil Gendzwill]

You can also get swanky new saddles with a hole in them to avoid pressure on the prostate gland.

[Ares2907]

Titus.
can you shed a little more light into your friends' injuries? Did they result directly from wide-grip pull ups or a combination of exercises? Were they sudden injuries or injuries that worsened over time? Were they the result of the exercise itself, poor form, too much weight, ballistic movement etc? I'd be curious to know.

As far as overtraining goes, if you do too much too quickly, then sure, you're asking for injury. That being said, there are routines for powerlifters (do a google on Shako) that use borderline overtraining to assist in strength gains.
Overtraining is relative to the individual. If you need to cut out volume to avoid it, fair enough. I do one or two sets per body part, with the idea being to work out with sub-maximal weight. The increments I use ensure that the muscles are more or less continuously recovering from micro-trauma. This is followed by several weeks of strategic deconditioning before the process begins again (see hypertrophy-specific.com)

AFA military press is concerned, I like it because it is also good for core-stability. You need to use a lot of stabilizer muscles to help retain good form. I'm not familiar with the French press, I'll check it out. Thanks.

Stiff-legged deadlifts are potentially dangerous, but like I said, form is everything. If you do the movement ballistically, or you try and over-control the weight in the eccentric movement (portion of exercise where the muscle is lengthening), you're going to hurt yourself eventually. In that respect, just about any movement is dangerous, although some are more easy to do badly than others.

[Ares2907]

Sorry, that should be Sheiko (who is/was a Russian strength coach), not shako (which is a hat worn by british footsoldiers a couple of hundred years ago).

Here's a description. . .(shows how much is possible without overtraining)
(long) post by Keith Hobman on misc.fitness.weights


I myself use the training of the Russian Coach Boris Sheiko. His basic
training pattern is:

Monday - squat and bench

Wednesday - deadlift and bench

Friday - squat and bench

and during later stages of adaptation he may add:

Tuesday - deadlift assistance and bench

Saturday - deadlift and bench or bench assistance.

He then applies Chernyak's loading parameters which call for different
weeks to have different load volumes and intensity. So an average week may
have a total of 80 reps in the bench at 50% intensity and higher (all with
an average intensity 66%), 60 reps at 50% and higher in the squat and 40
reps at 50% and higher in the deadlift. Other weeks are defined as stress
weeks when the load volume and/or average intensity is greater, or deload
weeks when the load and/or intensity is lower. Typically about half the
weeks are average weeks and the remaining 1/2 of the weeks are split
evenly among stressed weeks and deload weeks.

As well typically 60% or more of the repetitions done are basically done
in the big three or close variations of the big three. So there are ample
opportunities for working on technique.

I myself have used a variety of Sheiko programs, but the one most closely
matched to both my lifestyle and current level of adaptation is the
Candidate for Master of Sport / Master of Sport routine commonly
abbreviated as CMS/MS. This routine uses 4 days per week in the following
structure:

Monday - squat and bench
Wednesday - deadlift and bench
Friday - squat and bench
Saturday - deadlift and bench or bench assistance.

Typically on MWF I have two training sessions - an AM session typically
just under an hour in duration and a noon session typically under 30
minutes. On Saturday I typically train for a little over an hour. Here is
the actual set/rep of this weeks training - which is an average week in
Base Training.

Monday Mar. 24, 2003
AM WO
Box Squat 1x5@50, 2x4@60, 2x3@70, 5x3@80
Bench 1x5@50, 1x4@60, 2x3@70, 6x3@80
Assistance - Good Mornings, Pull-ups, Gastroc Raise, Dragondrops
Noon
Olympic Squat 1x5@50, 1x5@60, 5x5@70
Assistance - NG Incline Press

Wednesday Mar. 26, 2003
AM WO
Dl 1x3@50, 1x3@60, 2x3@70, 3x2@80, 3x1@85
Assistance - Step-ups, Rolling db triceps press
Noon WO
Bench 1x6@50, 1x5@60, 2x4@70, 2x3@75, 2x2@80, 2x1@85, 2x2@80, 1x3@75,
1x4@70, 1x5@65, 1x6@60, 1x7@55, 1x8@50

Friday Mar. 28, 2003
AM WO
Box Squat 1x5@50, 1x4@60, 2x3@70, 2x3@80, 3x2@85, 2x3@80
Bench 1x5@55, 1x4@65, 5x3@75
Assistance - Gastroc raises, Rolling db triceps press, Dragondrops
Noon WO
Bench 1x5@50, 1x4@60, 2x3@70, 6x2@80
Assistance - Rows

Saturday Mar. 29, 2003
Conv. Dl off plate 1x3@50, 2x3@60, 5x2@65
Press 6x4
Rack Dl 2x4@70, 2x4@80, 2x3@90, 2x2@100
Assistance - Step-ups, Dips, Rollouts

My assistance exercises I choose based on my week areas. For the main
exercises I can either do the normal movement or a close variation where I
have established or estimated my 1RM. As you can see it is not unusual on
Monday and Friday to either bench or squat twice. Reps rarely go over 5,
even in the off-season and even with relatively light weights.

I love this routine. I've done his more difficult ones where you squat and
bench 3 times each some days and its just too much for me, in terms of
time. But I've had excellent results with this and can change the
assistance and performance of the big three enough to keep me interested

[Marine_Boy]

Old Warrior, where about is the injury on your knee? It's just that I just had a weekend intensive aikido course with the head of Irish aikikai as the main uke. And after being thrown about like a rag doll the whole weekend, the left knee had swollen up around the cartilage area close to the inside of the leg. I actually also found it hard to sit seiza during practice last wednesday andn found numbness there and a pressure pusing out in that area.

I know the logical thing to do is to pull back on practice, which is what I've done (whata wimp!) but do you have any advice and or descriptions of the excercises you do to strengthen your knees.

Hey ares, have you read Arnold Schwarzenegger's encyclopaedia of body building. My brother had it and it's quite concise!

Stan

[titus]

Originally posted by Ares2907
Titus.
can you shed a little more light into your friends' injuries? Did they result directly from wide-grip pull ups or a combination of exercises? Were they sudden injuries or injuries that worsened over time? Were they the result of the exercise itself, poor form, too much weight, ballistic movement etc? I'd be curious to know.

AFA military press is concerned, I like it because it is also good for core-stability. You need to use a lot of stabilizer muscles to help retain good form. I'm not familiar with the French press, I'll check it out. Thanks.


Hey Ares,

My friends' injuries resulted specifically from the wide-grip pullups. It was definitely a long term thing, it won't show up right away, but will slowly damage the shoulders over time by rubbing bone and ligament together. The problem was not the exercise itself per se, but the width of the grip on the bar. A wide grip is problematic. I've read up on this quite a bit and it seems anything more than a few inches wider than the shoulders on either side can be dangerous over the long term. If you'd like to target the lats, just make sure to have palms facing away and grip shoulder width or just a bit wider. If you want to give your biceps a killer workout, do pullups with your palms facing towards you and your hands right beside each other, touching each other on the bar.

I agree with your comments about form and individual requirements. It's very true that everyone is different, gotta customize for sure.

The French Press is basically lying back on a bench with an EZ curl barbell, then hold your arms straight up, perpendicular to body. Lower the weight to your head without moving your upper arms, so you've just moved your forearms 90 degrees, then raise back up. It's an awesome workout for triceps. However, if you're looking for something that works your core body stabilizers like the military press, you might want to do cable pressdowns instead. Also, I've heard that pressdowns are the best triceps exercise because your arms are exactly parallel to the body (this is supposed to allow full extension of your muscle, which is hampered somewhat in french press and even more in military press).

[Old Warrior]

Stan

I had partial tears of the acl, mcl and the anterior horn of the miniscus.

Therapy went approximately as follows:

10 mins at a crisp walk on the treadmill.

25 reps stepping up and down with the bad leg on a 6" step

Sitting on a bench with a 2 1/2 lb ankle weight and doing leg raises and the same lying flat on your stomach (25 reps)

standing with a large diameter ball between your back and a flat wall, 25 squats

the therapist would stretch your leg to its limits by having you lie on your back, grab your heel and keeping the leg straight and the roll you over to bend it back at the knee

sessions ended with electrical stimulation to the muscles around the knee and some icing

I have been fine until about a month ago after a moderate workout epee fencing and the soreness set in. As it has continued the knee won't allow me to squat down. I always take 1500 mgs glucosamine/chondroiten and 4 softgels of Omega 3. Now, I ice down after use and take a double dose of Alleve.

[titus]

Originally posted by Old Warrior
Stan
I have been fine until about a month ago after a moderate workout epee fencing and the soreness set in. As it has continued the knee won't allow me to squat down. I always take 1500 mgs glucosamine/chondroiten and 4 softgels of Omega 3. Now, I ice down after use and take a double dose of Alleve.

Hi Old Warrior,

I've been doing sabre and epee for years, and I've gotta tell you that part of the reason why I joined kendo and stopped fencing is because I had situations like yours. Specifically, the major imbalances it causes in your muscle development (right side for right handed people, and vice versa) and potential damage to knees and shoulders.

Is it your leading leg's knee that hurts or the one perpendicular to your body? And what kind of shoes do you wear fencing? My knee and foot problems went away when I stopped using regular running shoes and run-of-the-mill fencing shoes and went all out for some Adidas Assymetrics, with the high top left foot and low top right (I'm right handed). Made a huge difference to my lower body problems. And everybody on the world championship circuit uses them too, so how could they all be wrong?

However, it was my upper body problems that killed me. My sternum is all crooked because my right side got two built up, my traps are uneven, and I couldn't use my right shoulder for a couple of months. Eventually said forget it and joined kendo, so much more healthy. My muscles have starting becoming more balanced and never felt a day of unusual pain doing kendo.

[Chusan]

Off Topic:
no probs with western fencing when using BOTH sides :-)
Ask your maestro to get lessons both on left AND on right and it will work fine.

[Old Warrior]

titus

It's the rear leg that is the problem. That's the one that gets screwed into the floor to lunge. I've been at it 15 years and I have considerable 1 sided development. My right forearm is inches bigger than the left which also gave some trouble trying to stay on center in Kumdo.

I use the premiere Addidas fencing shoes, with heel cups and a knee brace. I think God just meant for me to switch to Kumdo. The interesting part is going from being highly skilled at something (epee fencing) to a Kumdo beginner. I thought because I was used to wearing a mask that bogu would be easy -it ain't. I feel so slow and cumbersome and since I'm a heavy weight, my feet take a real beating. But I'm determined to get better and I will (if I live long enough).

[Ares2907]

Thanks for the info Titus,
I use military press more for shoulders than tris. I use a cable pushdown to hit them, that way I can supinate or pronate at will to target the various muscle heads.
I'm familiar with difference between pronated/supinated grip effects on muscle areas for various exercises, I just wasn't aware of the injuries you describe. Do you have any links for info on this sort of thing specifically?

Are you similarly against wide-grip lat-pulldown?

Marine-Boy, I've not read Aahnulds encyclopedia. I've been led to believe that not all contained therein should be taken as gospel.

[titus]

Hi Ares,

I've found at least two articles in the past about the potential to the damage the shoulders with wide-grip pullups but honestly can't find them now, however I'll keep looking and let you know. I remember this was specific to pullups and and not pulldowns, because of certain stresses and angles that are more controlled and safer in pulldowns while using a wide grip.

However, I did find an interesting fact about the military press which I'd never heard myself, thought you should see it here:

" I prefer the standing press because I must balance my entire body during the lift. Also, performing military presses while seated has come under fire because pressure is applied to the spine from both ends at once, compressing the spine and being the source of potential injury. "

http://www.mmaringreport.com/columns/lee_1_types_of_lifts.htm

Just thought you should know in case you think of doing sitting military presses, although I doubt you do since you mentioned the benefits of using your stabilizers.

[Steve Bishop]

Hi All!
this is my first contribution to the World Kendo Forum and I look forward to your comments.

Disclaimer: this article is offered as an example of the type of training may be undertaken for kendo and is not offered specifically for any individual or group to undertake without the guidance and supervision of a strength and conditioning specialist.

Strength and conditioning for kendo-as for any sport- involves a long list of trainable components for the individual athlete. These may only be prescribed effectively after the individual has undergone testing and measurement to establish base levels of "fitness" and set some training goals. After all, if you cannot measure something then you cannot manage it. Such tests need not be complex or involve laboratory analysis but may be organised on a club training night and be as simple as: How far you can run in a given period of time, a sit and reach test for lower limb flexibility and a one repetition maximum test (1RM) for any given resistance training exercise. The effectiveness of any training programme can then be assessed during a re-test session.

There is no single programme that is suitable for all athletes but here is a general overview training for fitness in Kendo.

A kendo training session involves many cuts and many movements and may last two hours or more. However motion analysis conducted by Parker-Dodd (1997) showed that the cutting action and necessary movement for a menuchi strike lasted approximately one second.

In order to train effectively all forms of exercise need to be sport-specific, therefore we may already appreciate that the need for long duration, continuous running or cycling exercise is unnecessary for kendo. Aerobic fitness is essential however in aiding recovery after continuous hi-intensity movements (such as in kakari-geiko). Highlighted here is the importance of interval running. This needs to be performed at a high intensity (75-90% of maximum heart rate [Max. HR=220-age]). This will increase your VO2max ie. increase the ability of muscle tissue to use oxygen. This helps to decrease the build-up of lactate and hydrogen ions in the blood which are both considered to be factors that induce fatigue (although the exact mechanisms of fatigue are not yet fully researched and understood). Examples of interval running/cycling/rowing might be 4 x 4mins with 2min. rest or 5 x 3min. with a 1min rest. The emphasis here (as with resistance exercise) is on quality of exercise ie appropriate intensity (BPM) and duration (min) and rest period (min).

Core Stability exercises for the muscles of the shoulder and hip girdles these are "assistance" exercises to others performed as either Local Muscular Endurance (LME) or Power. These exercises may involve a 12RM resistance a 3sets x 10reps with 30second rest and may comprise: Bench press, step-up, lunge, bent-over row, dumbell flies, overhead triceps extension etc.

Upper Body Local Muscular Endurance Suburi, sit-ups/crunches, back raises/flies (3sets x 20-30reps x body weight)

Lower Body Power 80+% of 1RM (eg 3sets x 8repetitions, 2min. rest). Such exercises might be the power clean, jump squats etc. These exercises should be performed supervised, with proper technique and be reproduced as close to kendo movement speed as possible. Furthermore, these and other power exercises should only be attempted after the athlete has progressed through: the back and front squat, deadlift, straight-leg deadlift and leg-press etc. as maximum strength exercises (ie. 90-100% 1RM, 3sets x 6 repetitions, 3min. rest)

Aerobic Training (see above)

Co-ordination and Reaction Time-which is relatively un-trainable Uchikomi-geiko

Flexibility Stretching for flexibility usually involves static stretches of 30sec. or more. Proprioceptive neuromuscular facilitation (PNF) is effective over 7-10sec. but requires a knowledgeable partner. Dynamic stretching is more useful in warm-ups. Avoid ballistic stretching for flexibility.

It is important to be organised and purposeful in designing a training programme. The first question is how will it be possible to fit all of the above into a working week? Aerobic, assistance and power exercises may be performed as little as twice per week each in conjunction with regular kendo training to have a positive effect on your physical performance. Make sure no session lasts more than one hour and take days off to rest. This allows physical adaptations to take place.

The above is not designed to conflict or contradict the subtle, esoteric and traditional training ways of kendo. There are many exercises that are not referred to. It is general in its make-up but specific in its fitness aims.

Hope this is useful.
Steve B

[Stan]

Steve B.,

Thanks for your post. I use a lot of the techniques you mention in my current program. How do I fit all of that into a busy week?...at 5:30am. I had not considered the testing part. I will have to put my goals down on paper and see how I can measure my performance. Thanks again.

Stan

[Ares2907]

Steve, you said this was an article - can you post references to which pubilcation it was published in?

Your(?) explanations of exercises seem to be pretty specific. Even down to the amount of rest between exercises. I'm not an expert, but from the amount of training that I've done, things like the amount of sets/reps and rest time tends to be pretty varied between individuals, especially to newbie lifters. This regime appears to me to be for someone that already has a pretty decent strength base and knows what they are doing in a gym, or knows enough to be able to tailor it to their own levels. Can you elaborate on this?

Can you provide examples of studies done to show this sort of routine has worked to improve the kendo of a particular study group?

Welcome to the board, btw.

[JSchmidt]

"This needs to be performed at a high intensity (75-90% of maximum heart rate [Max. HR=220-age]). "

Just a quick note:
That formula for Max HR is extremly rough as indivual Max HR's can vary greatly.
To get a better idea of your Max HR, you should be able to go to a decent gym and have a trainer help you. (Usually on an exercise bike). As it takes a good 10 minutes at reasonable high intensity, it also requires a reasonably base fitness to not get tired before you reach your max.

Jakob

[Steve Bishop]

Hi JSchmidt

The "article" was written by myself and is constituted from recent degree and post-graduate studies and 14years of kendo practice. I did not list all the research literature as that would have been longer than the entire article and we're having an exchange of ideas rather than a lecture.

The first time you go into a gym, it may be with a friend who is a certain type of athlete or performer and they will give you hints and tips on training. Then as you progress some things will work for you and others not and you will tend to train as you prefer. After a while it may become unclear what you are doing and for what reason. For example, there was a string about "pull ups as a "good" strength exercise...what has this movement to do with kendo? I am fairly specific because I a dealing with kendo and not with what a line-backer, a golfer or a pitcher may be following in any given programme.

I mentioned previously that programmes need to be individualised and if you prefer to develop for example max. strength by performing 3sets X 6reps (95%1RM) or 4sets x 3reps (98%1RM) etc. etc., and as long as there is measurable improvement in performance, exercises are performed with correct technique and safely...carry on.

Rest periods need to be fairly specific as along with %RM, this will determine the type of muscular development...endurance/hypertrophy/power/strength. Work and rest periods I have suggested are for developing lower body max. strength then power, and upper body local muscular endurance (including the core and assistance exercises).

As for max. heart rate (HR)-it is precisely because heart rates vary between individuals and that beginners will tire as you point out that such a general measure is used. (My resting HR is 48BPM when I am lying down and relaxed and it is 60BPM while typing this) No need for a trainer in this case...if you prefer, there is the Karvonen Method: http://www.janatrains.com/default.asp?ID=19
to calculate max heart rate for athletes with an established fitness base. Currently, the most accurate way to establish training thresholds is through laboratory testing using gas analysis...but, to my mind, getting into discussions of all these areas defeats the object of imparting useful and meaningful information so that we can just get on with it.

Sport science is relatively new on the scene and like all sciences waits for (and expects) hypotheses to be continually proved and disproved...hence the need for repeat testing and measurement of performance. This is one of the greatest challenges in sport research-to design meaningful field tests. I haven't addressed this one for kendo myself yet...which brings me on to the final point...

There is so little research on S&C for kendo that, as has been evident from this string, we are all making suggestions as what may be the most appropriate training regimen. This is simply mine. I am working with an athlete from the GB Squad and on myself to develop my ideas. However, everything I have implemented is based on the literature and the most up-to-date research wherever possible.

We won't get that S&C training base if we don't start somewhere.
If you want to wade through a big, fat, expensive ($68) but scientifically based and extremely informative book then I recommend this one: The Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning (2nd Ed.) Baechle TR and Earle RW. Human Kinetics (Pub.)

Steve B

[Ares2907]

as you progress some things will work for you and others not and you will tend to train as you prefer.


despite this being less than ideal for a large proportion of lifting newbies given that many of them a) have no idea what is is they are trying to accomplish (wanting to 'just tone up a bit' is like tattooing 'I am clueless' on your forehead.)
b) would not have a clue how to go about accomplishing what they wanted even if they did know. The number of gym 'instructors' who are a great source of disinformation don't make life much easier.




After a while it may become unclear what you are doing and for what reason. For example, there was a string about "pull ups as a "good" strength exercise...what has this movement to do with kendo?


That would have been me advocating pull ups. Still do. It has a lot to do with kendo. It is an exercise requiring a large number of muscles to perform, many of which are directly invloved in moving your shinai around.
The major target of pullups is of course the latissumus dorsi, however synergist muscles include the following:
Brachialis
Brachioradialis
Biceps Brachii
Teres Major
Deltoid, Posterior
Infraspinatus
Teres Minor
Rhomboids
Levator Scapulae
Trapezius, Middle
Trapezius, Lower
Pectoralis Minor

see:
http://www.exrx.net/Lists/ExList/BackWt.html#anchor1913634

I think that's reason enough to include them in any workout designed to enhance kendo performance.
I thought your article was an interesting one. I'm not sure that going for upper-body endurance over base strength is such a hot idea to begin with though, I would have thought strength and power is as important in the upper body as the lower, but hey my experience comes from a layman's point of view.
I read studies, but haven't conducted any. I retain what information I can and am generally careful to suggest people do their own research than take my advice immediately. Thanks for the recommendation on the book - I'll add it to the pile :)

[Phlebas]

I've learned a lot from this thread! Thanks to all.

Titus: Your comments on potential injuries to the shoulder were of particular interest to me... does the same apply to other excercises like the military press? I used to play competitive hockey and I used a wide grip for the military press for years. I just started Kendo and my shoulders are pretty damn sore in the joint... I'm missing practice now because of it and wondered whether my training from 10 years ago is biting me in the ass! I guess I'd better get it checked out by a physio, but I was curious if you think it might have been from a wide grip on the military press... I never did pullups.

I'm DYING to get back to practice! I hope this particular injury doesn't keep me out too long... I started late and have much to learn.

[JSchmidt]

" I just started Kendo and my shoulders are pretty damn sore in the joint."

You are most likely too tense in the shoulders when doing kendo.

Jakob

[Phlebas]

"You are most likely too tense in the shoulders when doing kendo." -Jakob

While I'm sure this could be true, it worries me that the pain is still present after 9 days. I had a problem with my left shoulder in my early twenties and after a few weeks of physio it disappeared, only to reappear about five years later when I had to help dig a ditch. The problem now is in my right shoulder and after more than a week the pain has not subsided at all. I'm not in agony, but whenever I raise my right hand over my head I can feel that something is wrong.

Anyway, I'm off to the physio tomorrow to have it diagnosed but I wondered about all the "wide grip" techniques I used to employ in my workouts once I read Titus' post. I also used the TorsoTrak thingy for quite some time (it has a wide grip bar too), lat-pulldowns were a favourite of mine, and wide-grip bench press was part of my old workouts in my twenties. Hmmm. I'll ask the physio tomorrow, as long as the answer doesn't cost extra! Socialized health my a$$... gotta be rich to be healthy in this country : )

[Pokie]

glad to hear you're trying out kendo, im new to kendo myself, this is my 8th month in bogu but it feels like more than that. There's many ways to improve, but what I found was that, as a beginner although I cannot move as fast and as coordinated as the other advanced players, I can also improve just by listening too. Sometimes you really have to pay attention to what your sensei is saying. He/she could say something that might seem passing, and if you catch it, it could really change ur kendo for the better. But improving needs patience, can you do fumikomi with men cut yet ? Think of it as walking to somewhere really far, the tiny little steps you take might not seem to count, but in the end it's what gets u there.

[Pokie]

posted to wrong thread