end up with his shinai in my other hand???

[alan dean]

Im new to kendo.
and my friend and I are doing some type of lesson about "holding the center" position while attempting to strike.

Now he charges in and we end up face to face...I know that in a second he will toss me back and try to hit my head.
He always does this, he always goes for "men" when were are close and face to face.

I wanted to try something new in place of just getting wacked in the head like I normally do, so I decided to do a block and hit to his "men" in one fast movement.

Well, it didnt go as planned...

My friend is very fast and very strong, and he hit my shinai in the handle right between my two hands. However he hit it so hard that he knocked my handle away from my hand.

But, (and here is the weird part I need to ask you guys about)
but somehow I ended up with his shinai in my free hand. the bamboo just slipped right into place where a split-second before my own handle had been.

the other thing was that my thumb was stuck under that little string that runs up and down on his shinai.

Now it took a moment to figure out what had happend. In deed for a second I didnt even know I had a firm grip on his weapon, (It sure felt like my handle)

Now if I had been in a real Kendo match...
And there were judges watching what had happend...

What would they rule this as?

is there a name for grabbing the wrong sword, and then being stuck for a moments and unable to let go?

[Neil Gendzwill]

is there a name for grabbing the wrong sword, and then being stuck for a moments and unable to let go?
Yes. Hansoku (penalty).

[alan dean]

How do they alert that a penalty has happend?

[joekc6nlx]

You'll hear "Yame!", they will raise both flags straight above their heads. When the two kendoists go back to their starting position, the shimpan will indicate to the one who's penalized, explaining the penalty, advise them that this is first warning.

You may also see in some tournaments where the scorer's table has both points and hansoku totals for each contestant.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Judge's flag goes down at a 45 degree angle for the person who is being penalised. Then they will call "yame" with the flags up. When you hear the call and return to centre, the judge will put both flags in one hand, point to you and say "hansoku ikkai" meaning penalty one time. You should look at him and bow slightly to indicate you understand. If it's a second penalty, he will say "hansoku nikai" and then award a point to your opponent.

There is no explanation of what penalty you received any more. We used to have to know all the terms for the various penalties but the calls were simplified some years ago.

[alan dean]

I want to understand this penalty more fully...
in the story I told, at what moment in my story does a judge see a penalty?

We were in each other's face...I knew he was going to push me off and go for my 'men". I raise my shinai to block and strike his "men"
he beats me to the punch, hits for "men" but I block his strike with the handle of my own shinai.

my handle is banged out of my hand...

My empty hand is struck by his shinai

my hand thumb slides under the connecting shinai string as my hand closed on his shinai

I notice I got his shinai and not my handle

I try to let go and find I'm stuck under the string

I twist my hand and pull back to get free.

---------------

[Neil Gendzwill]

When you grabbed his shinai, that's a penalty.

[alan dean]

ok, I understand now

[HandsomeWarrior]

Ok, let´s do it similar but a bit more difficult. This is real, mates. I´ve seen this happen in ji-geiko:

One guy kamae´s jodan and the other chudan. The chudan player attacks kote while the other makes a counter, and the first guy´s shinai slips just through the gap between the kote and the arm of the jodan player! To make things worse it gets stuck there so that when the jodan player moves his arm up again, he carries the shinai with him!
Note that he´s not "grabbin" it. The shinai is stuck under his left kote.

So, now we have one guy holding a shinai and with another shinai under his left kote, and another guy unarmed. No shinai has fallen to the floor. No shinai has been "grabbed"....

What the h**** is the shinpan supposed to do?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Halt play, seperate them and restart. No penalty. Same if the shinai get tangled with each other, or in the men strings, or in the sleeve of the keikogi.

[DCPan]

is there a name for grabbing the wrong sword, and then being stuck for a moments and unable to let go?

Shira-ba o-tori :wink: (Sorry, ninja joke)




One guy kamae´s jodan and the other chudan. The chudan player attacks kote while the other makes a counter, and the first guy´s shinai slips just through the gap between the kote and the arm of the jodan player! To make things worse it gets stuck there so that when the jodan player moves his arm up again, he carries the shinai with him!
Note that he´s not "grabbin" it. The shinai is stuck under his left kote.


The funniest one I've seen is in one All-Japan Champ.

One kenshi did a strong harai-o-toshi. The shinai slipped out of the other kenshi's hand, but the kenshi bend down slightly and regrabbed the shinai and got back into kamae before the shinai hit the ground.

Yame was called, gasp in the audience, but no hansoku...I think this clip is actually circulated online somewhere, but I can't remember where now.

FWIW.

[joekc6nlx]

Judge's flag goes down at a 45 degree angle for the person who is being penalised.

There is no explanation of what penalty you received any more. We used to have to know all the terms for the various penalties but the calls were simplified some years ago.

:redface:

Thank you for clarifying that, Neil. As I now recall, the shimpan never told me what I did wrong, but he didn't have to, as I already knew what I had done wrong.

[alan dean]

This is all good to know for the future....

also....Lets say you are in a real match,,,real judges,,,
and you do as i did the other day:

I was going for a "DO" strike, I saw an opening and faked my left ,to his wrist and went for the 'DO"

Howver my fake to the wrist was a bit high, and he ducked down a bit, as my shinai went straight ahead and snagged under his "Men" and could have been an accident and caused some harm, given the speed of my shinai and his ducking right into the path of it.

I stopped to ask "Are you ok?", before we kinda took a step back and felt thankfull no one was hurt.

Then we went back in to attack mode.

Now in a real match, this stuff ever happen?...what is the way to handle such an situation?

[Lloromannic]

This is all good to know for the future....

also....Lets say you are in a real match,,,real judges,,,
and you do as i did the other day:

I was going for a "DO" strike, I saw an opening and faked my left ,to his wrist and went for the 'DO"

Howver my fake to the wrist was a bit high, and he ducked down a bit, as my shinai went straight ahead and snagged under his "Men" and could have been an accident and caused some harm, given the speed of my shinai and his ducking right into the path of it.

I stopped to ask "Are you ok?", before we kinda took a step back and felt thankfull no one was hurt.

Then we went back in to attack mode.

Now in a real match, this stuff ever happen?...what is the way to handle such an situation?
Strictly speaking if the judges don't call Yame then you are free to keep going. If the opponent is obviously injured you would look somewhat better if you don't take advantage of it. If not then do go on.
Talking is a hansoku (or so I've been told), unless you are spoken to by a shimpan of course. I think most judges wouldn't give you a hansoku if you ask the opponent if he is alright but I've seen it happen.

[alan dean]

Thanks....
It was something I was just thinking about and wanted to know what would be the way to handle the situation had it been in a real match.

It's odd you know, One moment you are looking for an opening in his defence to drive in a hit and score, and the next moment you are really worried that you might have snagged open the skin on his neck...

Sorta takes all the fun out of kendo you know?

[Gregory]

What I want to know is why your friend who is "new to kendo" has bogu...

[alan dean]

I guess the term "new" is only true when compareing it to what you might call 'old"

Some of you guys are from Kendo familys,,,born into the sport,,,raised with a shinai in your hand in place of a baby rattle....LOL

You might only have been born now some short 13 years, but I would still call you an "old hand" at kendo!

I on the other hand?....not so old in kendo,,,but way too old in other ways...

[Charlie]

David, I'd love to see that clip.

Alan, note that the hansoku would apply even if you grapped the shinai by accident (and got tangled in the tsuru).

Also, for the cut going backwards - the hiki cut. Your friend may be good at it but you will eventually get good at it, too. Ask your sensei or sempai to show you how to maintain a good tsubazeriai - sword-handle to sword-handle - and look for opportunities to attempt hiki waza.