Knee Problems

[nollaig]

Hello all!

I recently had knee op, so I now have 50% less cartilage in the right knee.
So my quuestion is
Am I looking at problems practicing kendo?
ie Arthritis later in life.

any thoughts from more experienced kendoka's?

[kendomushi]

I grew up playing american football. Had surgery on my right knee, and a bone spur in the left. After surgery I went back to football. At 28 years old I moved back to Japan, stopped the football and started kendo. When I started I had to have braces on both knees and couldn't even do sonkyo without falling over. But now, 10 years later, kendo has strengthened my knees. I have, comparatively, very few problems with them now. They still ache a bit every now and then but they are now stable, supportive and I don't fall over anymore. The only thing I have done the past 10 years for physical activity is a bit of light bicycling, walking, and kendo. I attribute the knee imporvements directly to kendo and no longer doing american football. I'll still probably need surgery on the left knee to remove the bone spur evenutally but kendo has only made things better for my knees.

[Gothic_Coop]

I too played american football. I have cartilage damage on both knees. I also wrestled for many year (which helped my knees) I feel that the amount of sonkyo I do helps my knee and the proper stance has help too.

[Old Warrior]

I tore my acl, mcl and miniscus in my left knee in a motorcycle accident. I did not have them repaired surgically, as they were partial tears and I feared the arthritis more than any disability. After 15 years of European fencing (epee primarily) I took up Kumdo because the twisting motion on the back leg (my left) associated with a lunge was too much. While I am still a beginner, I am able to do Kumdo because there is very little twisting motion on the knees. After practice I ice the knee down and take a couple of Aleve. And, life goes on.

[Raiza]

Hm, good question, nollaig.
Whether or not kendo is going to be ok for your knee depends on the following, in order of importance:

1) The condition of your knee
2) Attention to proper footwork
3) Types of kendo drills used
4) Construction of the floor you're usually practising on

Kendo itself is a high-impact sport, with the attacking leap generating between 4 and 13 times your own body weight on your right foot during the attacking leap (from Ozawa's "Kendo: The Definitive Guide"), depending on your ability. The biggest thing to consider is how YOU respond to kendo. Does it hurt during kendo? If not, then kendo for you is unlikely to result in osteoarthritis, although the underlying condition that required you to get knee surgery may result in arthritis later on, regardless of whether you're doing kendo or not. Talk to your sensei, as s/he likely has some tips on minimizing trauma to your knee if it does hurt. The "suck-it-up" mentality is fantastic for working and improving tired muscles, but is not appropriate for handling significant injuries. Keep that in mind at all times.

I've got a Baker's cyst in my knee after being hit by a car, so my right knee hurts most of the time to varying degrees so I use NSAIDS regularly. I've made a few alterations to my kendo out of necessity, such as an altered sonkyou during practise and a shortening of the attacking leap. And for the most part, it's been fine for me. If I do get arthritis, which I'll likely get anyway regardless if I do kendo or not because of my injury, I'll at least be doing something I truly love doing. How many people can say that?

[Hai_hai]

I gave up foil fencing recently because it wasn't good for my knees. I started fencing last year and have not felt any problems with my knees during practices.
The callouses on my feet came in handy from my fencing days. :)

[sparc]

I had severe knee problems about 6 years ago. I used to do a lot of mountain biking and as most of you know, the knees take the brunt of many falls and crashes.

The first knee problem reared its ugly head whilst getting out of my car which is rather low, the cartilidge snapped in many places. Upon going to A&E, I was told to literally "Get over it, it's just a sprain - here is an asprin and a couple of crutches". Approx a week goes by and I'm barely able to walk on the leg without assistance of crutches, so off I go to the Doctor and he informs me of the real situation. He recommended I don't get surgery due to further complications in life and got me into a physio recovery plan.

8 months later, it's feeling a lot better but still gave a few problems. The the inevitible happens, the other knee does the same. Yep, same thing and the same recovery pattern had to be followed. I was told that my knees would never be the same again, and I'd have problems with flexibility.

I took up kendo just over a year ago and was a tad afraid that my knees wouldn't be able to hold out for even a couple of months. I was unable to kneel on both knees or even crouch without falling flat on my face.

But I am positive that kendo has helped my knees majorly as I no longer feel the crunching noise in both knees.

-----

Sparc

[Old Warrior]

"Upon going to A&E, I was told to literally "Get over it, it's just a sprain - here is an asprin and a couple of crutches"

I was in a motorcycle accident and was told the same thing. Two weeks later the mri showed torn acl, mcl and meniscus. For almost 3 months I wasn't walking without a brace. A year later I basically gave up European fencing (after 15 years) because the twisting on the rear leg was too much. But, Kumdo has very little twisting of the knee and so far (5 months later) the knees are OK.

[Inouye02]

Originally posted by Old Warrior
I tore my acl, mcl and miniscus in my left knee in a motorcycle accident. I did not have them repaired surgically, as they were partial tears and I feared the arthritis more than any disability. After 15 years of European fencing (epee primarily) I took up Kumdo because the twisting motion on the back leg (my left) associated with a lunge was too much. While I am still a beginner, I am able to do Kumdo because there is very little twisting motion on the knees. After practice I ice the knee down and take a couple of Aleve. And, life goes on.



#1

[Inouye02]

Originally posted by Old Warrior
"Upon going to A&E, I was told to literally "Get over it, it's just a sprain - here is an asprin and a couple of crutches"

I was in a motorcycle accident and was told the same thing. Two weeks later the mri showed torn acl, mcl and meniscus. For almost 3 months I wasn't walking without a brace. A year later I basically gave up European fencing (after 15 years) because the twisting on the rear leg was too much. But, Kumdo has very little twisting of the knee and so far (5 months later) the knees are OK.

#2

hey old warrior no offense, but don't you think telling the same story twice in the same thread is a bit much ?

[JSchmidt]

Well, he does claim to be old :D (G,D & R).

Jakob

[Confound]

Inouye,

You are encroaching on my flame turf. Obviously I haven't been staking the claim lately, but that doesn't make me any less the resident curmudgeon. If you want to push and shove, do it in style at least. Find something searing at least.

Back on topic:

I got in the wrong end of an argument with a motor vehicle last week, and my right knee looks like a plum on steroids. The doctor (also my iai sensei), thinks things will be fine by Tuesday, but it's already Sunday, and the soreness is abating quite slowly. Any advice beyond the obvious (ice)?

c

[AlexM]

Originally posted by Confound

Any advice beyond the obvious (ice)?

c

Amputate. Make it a nice tameshigiri excercise.

[Old Warrior]

Yup - but who goes back to the beginning to read them all. And, I'm old, so who can remember?

[mingshi]

Originally posted by Confound
Any advice beyond the obvious (ice)?

Try the hot-and-cold method... Ice, then cover it up with hot towel. Repeat. Good for blood circulation as this will condition your blood vessels to dilate and contract.

(As told by a Senpai... dunno if that actually works.)

[JSchmidt]

For virtually any kind of injury, R.I.C.E is the best you can do.
Rest
Ice
Compression
Elevation.

All will help to reduce the inflammation (and pain) and speed up recovery
Hot and Cold should only be used once the inflammation is gone, otherwise you are just encouraging it to spread. It is useful in the re-hab process, though.

Jakob

[Confound]

Been using ice pads, but standing for hours on end teaching, then the bike ride to and from school, isn't helping much. At least the latest round of gradings is over, and there isn't another tournament for a while.

c

[angryshinai]

Wouldnt sonkyo help by alowing fluid to lubricate between the joints??

[Hai_hai]

Knee problems are not related to "not enough fluid lubricating between the joints". Usually, it is torn/damaged ligaments, meniscus and/or cartilage from a sprain or twist. There's also the problem of having too much fluid in the knee, which is best determined by a doctor, wherein a doctor would drain the excess fluid. One usually does not have a problem of not having enough fluid in the knee unless a doctor accidentally removes too much fluid in the aforementioned procedure.
Increasing leg muscle strength through weight/resistance training is best for people who have suffered knee problems but want to remain active.

[samurai999]

Originally posted by Old Warrior
I tore my acl, mcl and miniscus in my left knee in a motorcycle accident. I did not have them repaired surgically, as they were partial tears and I feared the arthritis more than any disability.

Yeeeouch.. Sounds painful. Your injuries occured due to a motorcycle accident? You and Hongsermeier should talk. He practically shattered his leg and he's playing.

Tim

[Hyaku]

Originally posted by nollaig
Hello all!
Am I looking at problems practicing kendo?
ie Arthritis later in life.

any thoughts from more experienced kendoka's?

Yes. Maybe I can help with well over 30 years fumikomi etc.

Kendo or for that matter and sword activity in the long run is not the best thing in the world for physical balance. You spend so much time with one foot forward, right hand in front of the left not to mention all that foot stamping crushing into the knee joints. Worse of all countless hours of letting people smash you over the head does not help the neck joints one bit, even if you have a steel-like men.

I can push double the weights with my left leg due to a build up of pushing off that back leg. One shoulder is higher than the other.

Good side is I have arms that are probably as big as some peoples thighs.

My advice is wear neoprene supporters on both legs to pevent injury.They also do some wonderful gel heel supporters now that take a hell of a lot out of fumikomi injururious action.

If you do experience problems cut down the practice.

But do you do keiko everyday? If not I should not worry too much.

Hyaku

[Hongsermeier]

Time for my 2 cents.
Old Warrior....you knee problems sound familiar.
I had a motorcycle accident Dec 7 '99. Broke my right knee in 6 places, ripped the cartlage in half, tore all ligaments to some degree. Spent 3 month's in a wheel chair, 7 month's off work. The Doc's said it would take 1 1/2 years minimum for me to start doing sports of any type and to never plan on running again. I went from playing soccer to barely able to walk.
I started practicing Kendo in Jan 01. I do wear a neoprene brace on my knee and have a nice gel heel pad. I think all the foot work has helped make my knee stronger. Along with spending 2-3 hours a day in the gym trying to streach and strengthen the knee for my entire rehab, from 2 month's to 7 month's. I've even been able to practice without the brace on occasion. Depends on the floor of the dojo.
I've tried some of the "joint medicine" on the market currently. Haven't found it to make any noticable difference. Ice up when your done if needed. For me a glass of shochu and a hot bath help.

[Hyaku]

I wrote Injururious? I must have drank too much shochu too.

Hyaku

[Old Warrior]

"I've tried some of the "joint medicine" on the market currently. Haven't found it to make any noticable difference. Ice up when your done if needed. For me a glass of shochu and a hot bath help."

Which ones have you tried?

I take a double dose of Alleve; which I am told is the same strength as prescription Naprosyn. This definitely gives some relief after the second dose. However today (Mon.), after Sat.'s session with the Master, finds my knees still very very sore, so much so, that I doubt I will make tonight's class. Icing helps for the moment and a hot shower before bed is part of my routine. I wish there was some cream that would knock down the pain.

[Hongsermeier]

I've tried joint juice, and some of the others that have ch....... and gluclosumine. Sorry about the spelling. Their supposed to help maintain and repair the cartlage. As for pain... I have an almost permanent supply of vicodin. If that doesn't work I've got some percoset. I really try to avoid these as much as possible.

[chidokan]

avoid hard floors, they really kill my knees when stamping...

Tim Hamilton

your pen, my sword, outside now.

[Raiza]

Originally posted by Old Warrior
I take a double dose of Alleve; which I am told is the same strength as prescription Naprosyn. This definitely gives some relief after the second dose. However today (Mon.), after Sat.'s session with the Master, finds my knees still very very sore, so much so, that I doubt I will make tonight's class. Icing helps for the moment and a hot shower before bed is part of my routine. I wish there was some cream that would knock down the pain.


Sounds like you're having a really rough time of it. Unfortunately, no cream unless it's spiked with whoop-a** anesthetic like novocaine is going to help you.

Is there a specific activity that irritates your knee or is it just sore all the time? My Sensei, who is also a veterinarian, makes allowances and provides alternatives for bad knees so your "Master" (oh boy, not going there!) should be able to do the same. I do realize that there's a language barrier in your case so charades may be necessary. Also, keep in mind that you are not supposed using the right leg to propel yourself forward to create the "stomp". It's your left leg that pushes off-don't get hung up on creating a big sound with your right foot. There's a reason why Hyaku's left leg is so much stronger than his right. Just make sure it all finishes at the same time.

If that avenue has been exhausted, have you considered trying a better anti-inflammatory? I went from barely being able to shuffle to walking with a slight limp after my car accident thanks to the wonders of Naprosyn SR (750 mg once a day, it's the highest dose prescribed). Naproxen (also known as Naprosyn) is released more rapidly and as such doesn't last as long and it didn't help me much. It's more expensive (costs about $1.35 CDN a pill up here) but you get what you pay for. Ask your doc.

The downside to taking NSAIDs is that it decreases your clotting ability (so you'll bruise a lot more) plus you're at higher risk for developing gastrointestinal bleeding and hypertension. You shouldn't be consuming alcohol while taking them. Under no circumstances should you be taking more than one anti-inflammatory at a time (e.g. taking aspirin and naproxen is a big no-no). Give yourself a couple days at least to get the old stuff out of your system before starting a different one.

Looking at the big picture, you're better off tackling the problem than hiding it behind painkillers like vicodin and percocet (potent stuff!). Glucosamine sulphate has been documented to be beneficial for osteoarthritis but so far there hasn't been much to suggest it's been beneficial with anything else.

Thankfully, my situation has gotten much better. I hope yours will as well. :)