Necessity of Zanshin

[Kanoken]

Hello everyone!

I've thought of a question I would like to ask with you, and maybe even make a small debate.

The question has risen when my Iaido sensei told me that now I should work on my zanshin while performing kata, as my technique is good for now, and I lack zanshin in order to improve my iaido and take it to the next level.

Zanshin is defined as "Mental and physical alertness, readiness to strike" and is a key ingredient for both kendo and iaido, it is a difficult thing to achieve, as the people you are practicing with in kendo, or the imaginary people that attack you in iaido, are your friends (or nonexistant), and you aren't really in a situation you kill or be killed. but in order to have a high level, good kendo or iaido, you must show that you are going to kill them, and that you have that desire.

In a real fight, or a shinken-shobu, you are going to kill your opponent for sure, or he will truly kill you. While learing the do of kendo and iaido, we must learn to show zanshin. However, while learning the jutsu of the sword, is it necessary to have zanshin? While the japanese, centuries ago, learned how to handle a sword, and learned the koryu systems that were the source for kendo and iaido in order to stay alive and win the next battle, did they also learn to show zanshin, was it an integral part of their training as far as it is of our training, or was it different?

Those questions lead to the final question, and most improtant one for training, is zanshin a necessary thing to know how to handle a sword and to win in a shinken-shobu or not?

[h2o]

Those questions lead to the final question, and most improtant one for training, is zanshin a necessary thing to know how to handle a sword and to win in a shinken-shobu or not?I think so, yes. The chance of winniing if your mind is "Oh god, this is hard! Was that a hit? No, it wasn't...dammit... Oh, that guy is so going to kick my ass! Ahhh, keep that sword a away from me!"


When it comes to imaginary opponents, pretend they are someon or something you really don't like.
I kendo, well, I guess we must all find the on/off-switch for our "killing-mode". I'm still trying to find mine though :wink:

[Tono]

"...while learning the jutsu of the sword, is it necessary to have zanshin?"

I'd say zanshin is as much a part of the jutsu as waza; even moreso, actually: zanshin transcends any given martial art. It is part of the warrior's mindset which leads to...

"...is zanshin a necessary thing to know how to handle a sword and to win in a shinken-shobu or not?"

Translate this to: "Is it necessary to remain watchful and alert in a life-and-death combat situation?"

I think that one answers itself!

Cheers

[swordteacher99]

Um, ok, first Off, Zanshin applies to any art, a focus that is effort without effort, it can not be explained easily, if at all. Zanshin is a state which one will have perfect focus and mental clarity, free of the constraints of the concious mind, and then becomes able to access and act from their chi, or spirit. Any artist can attain it, but is is not easy, no. Good art requires it though, and honestly, you won't ever achieve it playing with bamboo sticks and fighting in armor with katas and all those set stances, I mean really, free yourself, pick up a boken, take some risk, and discard that armor. If you get a bad bruise and some broken bones, well then your not very good are you. Armor is too easy to fall back on, have to face real fear, real harm, to achieve Zanshin in combat, half measures just wont do. Also without real sword work and such you'll never gain proper cutting technique, really, your wasting your time if you want to be a real swordsman, fencers are not real swordsman, thats all you are, an oriental fencer, stop trying to be a cucumber when your an apple. Bye bye.

[nodachi]

"fencers are not real swordsman"

And sword teachers are potential trolls... opps... my apologies for dropping to this level, but not only do I disagree with you consistantly on many fundamental levels in what I see in your posts, you seem to be too critical of the paths by which others are traveling, perhaps because your path is so much better than ours?... what do I know though... what troubles me most is your lack of respect in how you write your responses, discussion is good, but you seem to have such a clear cut way of putting down kendo because of various reasons that does not really allow for discussion...

Sorry for feeding the troll everyone... I will stop... although I will respond if there is something worth learning and discussing with you swordteacher, but until then, radio silence commences...

[dotnet]

Those questions lead to the final question, and most improtant one for training, is zanshin a necessary thing to know how to handle a sword and to win in a shinken-shobu or not?

I think you should come to your own conclusion, taking your own definition: "Mental and physical alertness, readiness to strike". Do you think 'alertness' (according to your definition) is necessary in Kendo, Iaido, any art and in your life ? I think there is only one true answer.

You might also want to read this thread abou zanshin:
http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=310&highlight=zanshin

Cheers,
dotnet

[ReKru]

I think you should come to your own conclusion, taking your own definition: "Mental and physical alertness, readiness to strike". Do you think 'alertness' (according to your definition) is necessary in Kendo, Iaido, any art and in your life ? I think there is only one true answer.


I think he confuses Zanshin and Mus(h)in (what's the correct spelling).
Mus(h)in is a great thing for chado and painting and playing all sorts of instruments, but I never needed to keep my violin bow in an alert position so the orchestra doesn't attack me.

[dotnet]

I think he confuses Zanshin and Mus(h)in (what's the correct spelling).
Mus(h)in is a great thing for chado and painting and playing all sorts of instruments, but I never needed to keep my violin bow in an alert position so the orchestra doesn't attack me.

Well, the question about zanshin makes sense. IMHO I don't think a sensei would ask someone to work on mushin that early ..... But I am no sensei ;-). I believe he means zanshin.

Cheers,
dotnet

[swordteacher99]

Well, the question about zanshin makes sense. IMHO I don't think a sensei would ask someone to work on mushin that early ..... But I am no sensei ;-). I believe he means zanshin.

Cheers,
dotnet


I do mean Zanshin, but Zanshin and Mushin are easily confused, I know the differecnes. Mushin is simnply a state of no mind, whilst Zanshin is that heightened awareness that gives on clarity into that which is around and within their foes, for starters, they work together, have a lot in common, doe's one need one for the other to work, are they some how bound together, hmm, think on this, Zanshin is many things, but one thing. Riddles, fools hate them cause they can't solve them. Bye bye.

[ReKru]

Well, the question about zanshin makes sense. IMHO I don't think a sensei would ask someone to work on mushin that early ..... But I am no sensei ;-). I believe he means zanshin.

Maybe he (swordteacher) does, but his reference to 'everyday life and other arts' smells more of mus(h)in than zanshin.

I don't know if the concept of zanshin is really that hard to get - maybe on a philosophical level it is, but in application? ..
You can probably see examples of good and bad zanshin in every training jigeiko, when you land a sucessfull strike, run trough, turn around and your opponets hits your men immediately after you turned.
That means that you didn't have good zanshin and ideally you should turn around and be ready to attack or respond immediately.

In 'real' swordfighting (this is only hypotetical and 'totally ninjer sweet') - there have been several anectotal and documented cases where people would not be immediately dead even after recieving a fatal wound from a sharp object. That even after losing their head, they could still move and do crude actions.
Zanshin would ensure that you where still prepared, even after you fatally wounded your opponent, he still is a threat and charge you a last time while he's dying.
And then you couldn't just sloppily turn around, since he might be right behind you and swing at you, so you need to turn fully prepared to face him and cut him down again or he might 'take you with him'.

[dotnet]

Maybe he (swordteacher) does, but his reference to 'everyday life and other arts' smells more of mus(h)in than zanshin.

I think we first have to establish what zanshin is. If you read the thread that I linked above, you'll find out that people interpret zanshin differently. I believe it eventually extends to you daily life as well. But this must by no means be the correct interpretation ;).

If I follow my personal interpretation (I have described it in that particular thread), the question makes sense to me. Mushin is something much more difficult to actually grasp for me. I am not very good at silencing my thoughts (I would like to add that I haven't been diagnosed a loony ;)).

Cheers,
dotnet

[swordteacher99]

I have found that focusing on absolutely nothing is rather helpful for me, both in vision and in mind. try imagining you are a blind man when in combat, and do not focus on your physical senses, you will be amazed at how effective this can be in cultivating Zanshin, and knowing your opponents spirit. As for mushin, action, not thought, that is the key, getting there, thats the hard part. It's simple really, but simple ain't always easy ;) Hope this helped ;)




I think we first have to establish what zanshin is. If you read the thread that I linked above, you'll find out that people interpret zanshin differently. I believe it eventually extends to you daily life as well. But this must by no means be the correct interpretation ;).

If I follow my personal interpretation (I have described it in that particular thread), the question makes sense to me. Mushin is something much more difficult to actually grasp for me. I am not very good at silencing my thoughts (I would like to add that I haven't been diagnosed a loony ;)).

Cheers,
dotnet

[ReKru]

I think we first have to establish what zanshin is.



Hmm, maybe not, since we can't really answer the question if it has any relevance in shinken-shobu, because most of us never had one (Schinkenbroetchen on the other hand ... :D ).

And those who actually had, left us with many confusing, contradicting thoughts on it.
We can talk about kendo, though, and there it has, but maybe only because the ruleset says it does. If the point was awarded right after the shinai made contact (like western fencing), it wouldn't have.

[dotnet]

Hmm, maybe not, since we can't really answer the question if it has any relevance in shinken-shobu, because most of us never had one (Schinkenbroetchen on the other hand ... :D ).

True :D. I have simply been impertinent enough to assume that the essence is the same.

Cheers,
dotnet

[dotnet]

I have found that focusing on absolutely nothing is rather helpful for me, both in vision and in mind. try imagining you are a blind man when in combat, and do not focus on your physical senses, you will be amazed at how effective this can be in cultivating Zanshin, and knowing your opponents spirit. As for mushin, action, not thought, that is the key, getting there, thats the hard part. It's simple really, but simple ain't always easy ;) Hope this helped ;)

The problem is, it is only theory as long as you haven't experienced it. You cannot learn it by reading it. And once you THINK you have experienced something, you realize that this is only one small step. I have therefore stopped worrying about this. Train; train hard; as often as you can; give everything you have got and don't think to much while training. Thats my philosophy right now.

I'll see if it will yield fruit.

Cheers,
dotnet

[swordteacher99]

The problem is, it is only theory as long as you haven't experienced it. You cannot learn it by reading it. And once you THINK you have experienced something, you realize that this is only one small step. I have therefore stopped worrying about this. Train; train hard; as often as you can; give everything you have got and don't think to much while training. Thats my philosophy right now.

I'll see if it will yield fruit.

Cheers,
dotnet

There is truth to this, some things one can only learn by doing, especially if you wish to learn them well, I can offer guidance, but really, I can't walk that road with you, no one can, Zanshin is something each person must find on their own.

[ReKru]

True :D. I have simply been impertinent enough to assume that the essence is the same.


Well, I'm a firm believer that, while Kendo is a modern sport, gendai budo etc., due to it's roots in 'samurai swordmanship' (and yes, it hurts me to use this expression), it does in fact contain a bit of the essence of sword sparring and the rules are the way they are to reflect that essence.

And since the rules require 'proper zanshin' (whatever that is *grin* ), it would also have a place in 'real swordfighting' (see my post above).

But the insight in 'realistic swordfighting' that you can gain trough kendo is still rather limited, which is ok in my book since I hope I'll never get into a situation where I'd need a real sword. And which is still better than all those 'made up sword arts' that preach they teach 'realistic swordfighting' (totally ignoring the kendo rulesets that they don't understand and hence consider 'worthless' and 'unrealistic').

[rottunpunk]

i agree with above comments. zanshin and spacial awareness are very important in improving ones iai.

though how one learns how to improve it is difficult. your teacher may be able to help you. one excercise chidokan taught me was for 2 students to do the form opposite each other, or for one to do the form and the other to strike when they see an opening. it slows ones movements down a lot, and makes you think more about a real attacker that does not necessarily react the same way as the one in the explanation. doing kendo will help with zanshin as well.

hope this helps a bit
:p

[dotnet]

I can offer guidance, but really, I can't walk that road with you, no one can, Zanshin is something each person must find on their own.

I totally agree. Don't get me wrong, I still appreciate any thought on this topic. Information seeps through slowly and I gradually try various approaches but I have simply stopped to worry about this.

Cheers,
dotnet

[swordteacher99]

Well, I'm a firm believer that, while Kendo is a modern sport, gendai budo etc., due to it's roots in 'samurai swordmanship' (and yes, it hurts me to use this expression), it does in fact contain a bit of the essence of sword sparring and the rules are the way they are to reflect that essence.

And since the rules require 'proper zanshin' (whatever that is *grin* ), it would also have a place in 'real swordfighting' (see my post above).

But the insight in 'realistic swordfighting' that you can gain trough kendo is still rather limited, which is ok in my book since I hope I'll never get into a situation where I'd need a real sword. And which is still better than all those 'made up sword arts' that preach they teach 'realistic swordfighting' (totally ignoring the kendo rulesets that they don't understand and hence consider 'worthless' and 'unrealistic').

So your saying in one breathe that what you do is not real sword work, which is fine cause you don't want to ever get into a fight with a real sword, but in the next breathe say what you do is still better then real sword arts, or made up, whatever that means. Not that it matters to someone like yourself, but everything your doing was made up by someone, interesting thought eh, and what you do is not very realisitic. As for totally ignoring kendo rulesets, and how others, so you say, consider them worthless, that these people are in fact inferior, so you are superior, wow, well done. Of course what you seem to miss is that, physical technique aside, (since what you do has little risk and is not therefore realitistic anyhow, as you said), what you do is rather limited, as you said yourself, but still better then what total strangers who you have never met, and who practice real sword arts do, thats basically what your saying. Interesting, a lot of contradictions and double talk here, me thinks you were not on the debate team in high school. Tah tah

[h2o]

Not that it matters to someone like yourself, but everything your doing was made up by someoneunlike your own art that you just found lying on the backyard, or what? Everything has a start somewhere.


Interesting, a lot of contradictions and double talk here, me thinks you were not on the debate team in high school.Me thinks you missed all english classes...

Gosh, still can't stop feeding the troll, can I :disapp:

[hyuna]

While learing the do of kendo and iaido, we must learn to show zanshin. However, while learning the jutsu of the sword, is it necessary to have zanshin? While the japanese, centuries ago, learned how to handle a sword, and learned the koryu systems that were the source for kendo and iaido in order to stay alive and win the next battle, did they also learn to show zanshin, was it an integral part of their training as far as it is of our training, or was it different?

Of course I was not alive hundreds of years ago, so I cannot say what they did. And I am, of course, not a "real swordsman" since I don't go out and cut people down. However, I think learning zanshin with a shinken during an age of war is a little different than learning zanshin in kendo or iaido in modern times.

If you lack zanshin while handling a shinken, you are in very real danger of cutting off your thumb or something. If you lack zanshin while handling a shinai, you might give yourself a nasty splinter. In truth, I think the whole point of practicing somethng like iaido, or kendo, or even "full speed sparing where you pull your hits" is to allow those who do not have real zanshin to learn technique and maybe progress to the point that they can develop some sense of zanshin.

I imagine in the bad old days, if you lacked zanshin against a skilled opponent, you were simply dead, or at least out of the fight. Learning zanshin was simplythe process of staying alive and whole. So, in a sense, you didn't have to learn it at all. You would have it or you would not be fighting (one way or another). But in kendo or iaido, if you lack zanshin all that happens is that you lose your match or fail your test. You can keep trying, so we have an artificial situation where there are many kendoka or iaidoka who are practicing technique but still trying to learn zanshin.

What follows from this is that I do not believe you can learn zanshin from sparring or kata. Not any kind of "sparring," be it with bokuto, shinai, or even real sharp swords. The reason is that there is no risk in mere sparring. If you are pulling your cut, or know your opponent will pull their cut, it is empty.

I think this is why we are taught that we must practice with the feeling of shinken shobu. Only by believing that this is not sparring, but life and death, can we truly learn zanshin. But, even in that case, the key is the ability to treat the bout as if it were shinken shobu, so the key thing is your ability to treat the situation with utmost seriousness. If you can do this, you can do it in any situation. You could walk into a bar with zanshin (and in many samurai movies, you would be wise to do so!). So it is the mindset that allows the cultivation of zanshin and not the situation.

Nevertheless, in my opinion, the only true test of zanshin is a situation where only one person can walk away. In an artificial situation, someone always knows in the back of their head that they can take risks that they could, or would, not take if lives were really on the line, so there no proof of a sense of awareness of what is or is not a real opportunity. For that reason, I am content never finding out which art is more "real."

Either way, the point is that I imagine in the bad old days, they did not have to learn how to treat the match as if it was shinken shobu, because it was shinken shobu, or at least it was going to be soon enough.