"fencing > kendo"

[TcDohl]

There's a not-so-nice guy on another board that says that European fencing is 'superior' to Kendo. Here are some of his quotes:

why wouldn't comparing the two be sensible, thinking that you couldn't compare them would not be sensible

they are both arts with the end result of learning swordplay

which ever art teaches the superior swordplay would be imo, the superior art

fencing > kendo

don't believe me? go ahead and challenge the fencing club!! mwahaha

Ugh. Crap like this makes me sick. Help me teach him a lesson.

http://ur.anime.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?t=441

[h2o]

Why bother? The "fencing vs. kendo" issue is never going to be resolved, and it isn't really interesting anyway. Go ahead and correct facts if someone seems to be utterly clueless, but don't fall in the trap and try to prove that "my martial art is better than yours"!

[Toaster]

I started a thread along these lines not so long ago..... had some interesting outcomes, read it if you will as you may learn something from it.:rolleyes:
ever thought he may just be having a joke? Why should we "teach him a lesson"? If we tought everyone who dissagreed with us a "lesson" then the world would be a dire place strewn with not but corpses. would you like to "teach a lesson" to a person who supports a different sports team to you? Or likes vanilla sundeas instead of chocolate ones? well, at the least I know I wouldn't.
To finish (as both an avid kendoka and fencer myself) I feel we should enjoy our arts as we will, and if a supporter of "the opposing team" as you may like to call it decides to show a little team spirit then let him get on with it, and enjoy the little fun that there is without being "offensive" or "politically incorrect" that may be left in this world.

p.s. Just for the record, I prefer kendo to fencing :) - fencing breeches cause major wedgees :confused2

[Sinta]

Just because someone disagrees with our opinions, doesn't mean that we should go over and beat the crap out of him ;) Each to their own.

Kendo vs Fencing isn't really something to get mad about. Everyone has their own passions, and to argue that kendo is superior to european fencing is pointless, because fencing is clearly something close to that person's heart. The discussion will get nowhere :)

Same will happen if someone tried to convince you that kendo isn't superior to fencing.. you're not about to change your mind, are you? :) I doubt he would be.

[Berugijin]

Please, everyone knows that:

kendo < kumdo < fencing

[Kiyohiko]

Well, actually this question was somewhat answered in a japanese show...

I remember watching a program, where they pitted a kendoka, around 60~70 years of age (if not more), not sure which dan he was, since I wasn't I knew nothing about kendo then (I just know he's someone who's got a good rank), and the fencing guy was a young japanese university student, top fencer in Japan. The objective was, the first of the two who got to touch the kote, men, or whatever other part that they had predecided for the rules, would win. It was an ippon match. Since it's hard to make rules that are acceptable for both, for sure, one of them had the disavantage (the kendoka imo). The match lasted seconds, the fencer got the kendoka's kote first, and even though the kendoka also got him, about at the same time, after the slow motion, they decided that the fencer won.

Now of course, that doesn't mean fencing > kendo, since there were many unfair factors for both sides. First of all, kendoka was really old. The fencer was in his middle 20s. The objective was to touch the other first, unlike kendo's rules. Difference in styles are totally different between fencing and kendo. Fencers have a bigger maai I think... so it's hard to get near them. Oh, and the stage was also a straight line, Meaning there were no sideway movements. In such a narrow space, stabbing with a long, lighter sword may indeed be easier... Of course, the fencer had his disavantages too. Even though he was the best fencer in Japan universities, Japan isn't that great with fencing (I think?), while kendo, Japan is at the top. What if the top kendoka and top fencer battled it out?

I think we will never know which is better. It's like saying, who would win, brazillian soccer team or Canada's hockey team? They are two totally different things.

What if it was a fight to death, between a top samurai and a top knight? Would be intersting to see...

[TcDohl]

Well, what just gets me is how ignorant he is, that's all. I don't care if you don't like Kendo, but just don't have the wrong idea about it, that's all.

[Kiyohiko]

Just let him be :P It doesn't matter what others think guess... Each person has their own opinions and all. We do what we want, they do what they want, and everytihng is good. As long as they don't do anything that affects others, it's all good.

[Anime12478]

I think that he posted that just to be stupid and didn't really have much meaning behind it. Whenever you post something, you will get that thread that says something nonsensical, especially in a forum that is crawling with immature 13 year-olds like an Anime or video gaming forum.

[swordteacher99]

Neither is better or worse, it's the fighter, not the style that makes the difference ;)


Just because someone disagrees with our opinions, doesn't mean that we should go over and beat the crap out of him ;) Each to their own.

Kendo vs Fencing isn't really something to get mad about. Everyone has their own passions, and to argue that kendo is superior to european fencing is pointless, because fencing is clearly something close to that person's heart. The discussion will get nowhere :)

Same will happen if someone tried to convince you that kendo isn't superior to fencing.. you're not about to change your mind, are you? :) I doubt he would be.

[Toaster]

immature 13 year-olds

We're not all that bad- apart from the fact that i have a sudden urge to trash my room scream at my parents and complain for days on end. :vampire:
- HA! As if..... :wink:

[Mugu]

Neither is better or worse, it's the fighter, not the style that makes the difference ;)
I don't know, it sounds so wise yet so oxymoron at the same time when I read this. I think it's the person, not the sentence.

[The great I AM]

Who cares which is better? Ignore the other person and just practise what you want! Doesn't relly matter which is better as long as YOU enjoy it, right?

[Optomitrist]

as much as I would love to rip on fencing I think the only people who can really compare teh two are the peole who have done both extensively.

[Neil Gendzwill]

The real difference between FIE fencing and kendo as far as I'm concerned is that it's much easier to pursue kendo recreationally. If you're not actively competitive, the fencing clubs really aren't interested in teaching you. I'm sure there are exceptions, but that's the case here and that's the word I get from a lot of fencers. One fellow I knew had been an extremely competitive fencer and in fact was still winning in masters competition, but his coaches felt his competitive career was winding down and so turned to the younger prospects. He was welcome to come out to practices, but got almost no instruction. Like many sports, it seems that in fencing you're either competing or coaching - no in-between.

As a life sport, kendo is much more viable than fencing. And many other martial arts, for that matter.

[pgsmith]

Who cares which is better? Ignore the other person and just practise what you want! Doesn't relly matter which is better as long as YOU enjoy it, right?
Excellent words Stuart! I've seen quite a few people that get upset over what others have to say about their art. Unless someone is studying a particular art in order to seem 'cool', it doesn't matter at all what anyone else does or says. A person is ultimately studying for themselves alone. If you really care what some stranger on the internet has to say about the art you practice, then you obviously aren't training hard enough! :)

[TcDohl]

Thanks, Gibbo! Those are awesome words of inspiration.

As you see, the thread greatly degraded into something horrendous. The mod guy went even as low as editing my previous posts and claiming I said the things that he inserted.

[Sepiraph]

To each their own, I've never tried fencing but I'm pretty sure fencing has its own merits also. A direct comparison of Kendo with fencing is not really possible due to the difference in rules and also in equipments.

In a real death match of Kendoka versus fencer, it's most likely that each swordsman will die a glorious death, that's all.

[Seth Woodworth]

Fencing is a sport, not a martial art. I've heard critiques of kendo, saying that it's the sport version of Japanese sword play. Maybe that is the case, but kendo is at least a lot closer to real sword play than modern fencing is to western martial arts. Fencing is at best a sport. I haven't been exposed to kendo long enough to have an opinion.

I agree with several of the others before me, that the style doesn't matter as much as the fighter.

I sparred against a kendo artist last night. He was japanese and I don't speak the language so I don't know anything about his background. I study 15th C German longsword, and even hampered by; not wearing armor myself, using a shanai which 10 inches shorter than I'm used to using, and not having a crossguard, I did alright. I wouldn't say that my style was superior, nor his. Nor would I call the other forms of eastern martial arts I have come across superior or inferior.

I have however seen people from time to time using weapons incidentally to the style when weapons of that size should be integral to the style. In my limited experience only.

The japanese students that were present seemed interested in cross training with myself and the escrima group that showed up on a regular basis. So maybe we can get some sort of ideas about specifically what works against each other. Would anybody be interested in discussing this further?

Seth
---------------------------------------
knights.arador.com

[iam_pk]

Who cares which is better? Ignore the other person and just practise what you want! Doesn't relly matter which is better as long as YOU enjoy it, right?
i absolutely agree with that!! n i think there is no point to compare them, they are totally different things

[Yiu Fai]

Fencing is a sport, not a martial art.

Why? You're learning the martial way, ie: to duel with swords, why is it not a martial art and Kendo is?

[Seth Woodworth]

Why? You're learning the martial way, ie: to duel with swords, why is it not a martial art and Kendo is?

This is just my opinion, but modern fencing isn't combat realistic. It's not learning how to duel with swords, it's learning how to play a game that looks like sword play. I hesitate to call the weapons used swords because of their lack of weight and stiffness.

A game where I can score a point by flicking my opponent just enough to depress a tip 420N of force regardless of actual wounding isn't a swordfight it's a sport.

Now anyone's deffinition of a martial art may differ, and that's fine. Then it's just a question of semantics.

Kendo, I have not seen a lot of, so I havn't decided completely yet. But it seems that Kendo is far less rule bound and more combat effective than FIE fencing.

All martial arts when done for sport become changed in some way. You can see this in longsword manuals from 1300 to 1600. And I think that it's very clear in modern fencing as well.

[kendonewbie]

This is just my opinion, but modern fencing isn't combat realistic. It's not learning how to duel with swords, it's learning how to play a game that looks like sword play. I hesitate to call the weapons used swords because of their lack of weight and stiffness.

A game where I can score a point by flicking my opponent just enough to depress a tip 420N of force regardless of actual wounding isn't a swordfight it's a sport.

Now anyone's deffinition of a martial art may differ, and that's fine. Then it's just a question of semantics.

Kendo, I have not seen a lot of, so I havn't decided completely yet. But it seems that Kendo is far less rule bound and more combat effective than FIE fencing.

All martial arts when done for sport become changed in some way. You can see this in longsword manuals from 1300 to 1600. And I think that it's very clear in modern fencing as well.
Another person coming along talking about the combat value of kendo and fencing...hmm. (red flag goes up).

[Mr. Donigan]

Please, everyone knows that:

kendo < kumdo < fencing

I thought it went Pac Man < kendo = Atari > Colecovision. The theory of relative nonsense.

[drizzt]

Another person coming along talking about the combat value of kendo and fencing...hmm. (red flag goes up).

actualy his arguments are valid. Hes not talking about actualy beating the hell out of each other, but more on the idea of wether it is a true martial art,ie. training for a style of combat, or a sport. Swordteacher on the other hand proclaimed he was going around fighting people with swords in combat...

Martial arts ARE traditionaly training in fighting styles, just not implementable on modern society(well not sword based arts anyway...).

[kendonewbie]

ahh...my bad.

[drizzt]

no i understand were your coming from, that has been the big trend lately wiht the trolls......theres a possibility i was the one who misunderstood him as wel :)

[Seth Woodworth]

I wasn't trying to troll, if I stepped on anybody's toes I apoligize. I think that I'll start a new thread a little less antagonisticly if I want to discuss the interworkings of Kendo and German longsword.

[Anjin-san]

Well actually it's all on the AJKF website. It doesn't say anything about killing people with swords there, unless I'm reading it wrong. So no, you absolutely cannot use kendo to kill people. It's not combat effective at all. The goal in sparring is to use a shinai to strike an armoured target area. It is an abstractification of Japanese sword fighting. By learning to use a shinai to hit armoured target areas you can make points in this regard. I do this because it's fun, gives me a context in which to compete, and probably deep down improves my character somewhat. Also, to me this doesn't remove it from the scope of 'martial art' as its origins are martial and it is an art.

In order to be combat-effective with a sword, i.e. kill people, you have to practice killing people. This is illegal. I ask humbly that you don't do it too often.

[Yiu Fai]

Seth: Imho, fencing is quite similar to kendo in some aspects. As Anjin-San kindly pointed out, kendo is to use a shinai to hit armoured target area. Guess what? Thats what they do in fencing too :wink: (substitute shinai w/ foil, epee, sabre) I think that kendo shares the same, if not similar relationship with its martial origins along with fencing.

[Darax The Good]

I think it would be interesting if several weapon based arts had mixed competitions. I mean outside the SCA :P

[kaltek]

Did fencing on a few school trips. teachers said i was a natural but i still prefered kendo.why poke the enemies to death when you can smash them instead? :evil: :hurt:

[kaltek]

I think it would be interesting if several weapon based arts had mixed competitions. I mean outside the SCA :P

There was a small group that did Kobudo that joined from US for a couple o' weeks, sensei told us that it was to experience other styles to prepare. pretty fun w/ sai and bo but got bruises from nunchaku :hurt:

[pgsmith]

I think it would be interesting if several weapon based arts had mixed competitions. I mean outside the SCA
Cool idea! I practice battojutsu ,kenjutsu, and bojutsu. Those are weapons based arts. Can I play? ;)

[kaltek]

What is everyone's favorite Art? has this been made as a poll already cuz i'd like to know the favorite...:cheerful:

[Moe-KendoFreak!]

yay! i wanna get a custom avatar yay!

STOP the VIOLENCE!

[gsx1100s]

After following the link to the site mentioned , I found it interesting reading to say the least!
I however cannot see the point in deciding which is better for one glaring reason. These sword arts are both sports. They may have their roots in historical contexts of life and death (and so should still hold that spirit) , but they are rigid in their teachings and styles. As a clumsy analogy it would be like a person trying to play Snakes and Ladders on a Monopoly board. Both board games ,but very different from there.
There are specific rules to both sports and because of this they cannot be contested together as they have different outcomes.To strike fairly in kendo may be poor swordsmanship in fencing and vice versa.
I would like to say in closing that by describing kendo as a "sport" I am in no way demeaning its far deeper spiritual aspect of patience ,control and humility ( to name a few of the positive outcomes of learning kendo).
A very interesting thread thanks for the chance to participate.

regards Michael

[ekajati]

This IS the flame section right? :D :D

Fencing is MUCH better than Kendo:evil: :devious: ! Why? Here's why:

a) You get to wear SHOES and don't need to massacre your feet and spend hours washing them when you finally crawl home
b) You get to exclaim cool things like "en garde!" which you actually know what they mean
c) You don't have to destroy your voicebox in the vain attempt to elicit a Rambo yell "from your hara", whatever your hara is, when you are in any case a GURL* :D
d) You get to play at being a French Aristocrat rather than Darth Vader
e) You don't have to wear a beer barrell around your waist and then have some person expect you to jump up and down in it
f) You don't have to worry about - GAH! - ironing any **** pleats (I don't anyway because I'm yet a mere beginner but I've read the tales of woe heh)
* Or should that be GRRL? Both are Korect as any fule kno
Pauses to remove foot from mouth :D :D :D :D

however, since I appear to be a tasteless masochist with an unfortunate compulsion for the exotic, I'm staying with the stick-bashing :D

[Fonsz]

however, since I appear to be a tasteless masochist with an unfortunate compulsion for the exotic, I'm staying with the stick-bashing :D
Welcome to the club! You are now a member of a very select group who you just so eloquently have described. Lucky you found us and that we could steer you away from your local samurai wanabees. Lucky for us that there is an addition to our thinning ranks. Enjoy the ride.;)

[nothing]

There is an interesting "battle" going on here in SD. SDKB Dojo practices on Saturday at UCSD in the Rec Gym, and the UCSD Fencing club practices right after us. We sometimes tend to go over our alloted time just a bit, then find outselves mulling around afterwards, and the fencers seem to get pretty pissed. They sit and watch us finish up with their noses in the air. I have often watched their practices in horror.. and to a degree with ego. Their club includes younger kids 13 and under, who run around screaming and yelling. I find no discipline in their teachings. The Fencing instructors are just college students who seem to mope around and not actually instruct. There is one particular instructer who is a girl of about 20 years old. could be pretty, but a bit short and stumpy. In the 6 months I have seen her come in after our class, i have yet to see her smile.. or even risk smiling.... angry little bitch..

Ok.. ranted on enuff...

[kuzu70]

There is one particular instructer who is a girl of about 20 years old. could be pretty, but a bit short and stumpy. In the 6 months I have seen her come in after our class, i have yet to see her smile.. or even risk smiling.... angry little bitch..

Ok.. ranted on enuff...

You just wanna get some from this chick, right?

[samurai999]

^^^

He should put on a robe and Wizards hat. HARRRRRR!

Tim

[nothing]

You just wanna get some from this chick, right?


LOL.. I'd hurt her... lol!

[h2o]

We sometimes tend to go over our alloted time just a bit, then find outselves mulling around afterwards, and the fencers seem to get pretty pissed.Which they have all the right to. We had the same problems with the karate club sometimes go pass their time, and then actually stay in the (very small) dojo to do some stretching. It is not fun at all. If they have a scheduled time which they probably pay money for, then they have the right to get angry if you steal their time.

The Fencing instructors are just college students...
If they could revive the three musketeers and have them instruct fencing, I am sure these "college students" would be very happy.

[quot€]In the 6 months I have seen her come in after our class, i have yet to see her smile.. or even risk smiling.... angry little bitch..[/quote]Well, if you "sometimes" steal her time, then I am not surprised.

Sorry If I sound upset, but I am
1) not very happy about people stealing other peoples time. And
2) tired of hearing that someone who is in their 20's should not teach. And that no one who han't achieved at least godan should never be allowed to teach kendo.

[Sôjirô]

Well, actually this question was somewhat answered in a japanese show...

I remember watching a program, where they pitted a kendoka, around 60~70 years of age (if not more), not sure which dan he was, since I wasn't I knew nothing about kendo then (I just know he's someone who's got a good rank), and the fencing guy was a young japanese university student, top fencer in Japan. The objective was, the first of the two who got to touch the kote, men, or whatever other part that they had predecided for the rules, would win. It was an ippon match. Since it's hard to make rules that are acceptable for both, for sure, one of them had the disavantage (the kendoka imo). The match lasted seconds, the fencer got the kendoka's kote first, and even though the kendoka also got him, about at the same time, after the slow motion, they decided that the fencer won.

Now of course, that doesn't mean fencing > kendo, since there were many unfair factors for both sides. First of all, kendoka was really old. The fencer was in his middle 20s. The objective was to touch the other first, unlike kendo's rules. Difference in styles are totally different between fencing and kendo. Fencers have a bigger maai I think... so it's hard to get near them. Oh, and the stage was also a straight line, Meaning there were no sideway movements. In such a narrow space, stabbing with a long, lighter sword may indeed be easier... Of course, the fencer had his disavantages too. Even though he was the best fencer in Japan universities, Japan isn't that great with fencing (I think?), while kendo, Japan is at the top. What if the top kendoka and top fencer battled it out?

I think we will never know which is better. It's like saying, who would win, brazillian soccer team or Canada's hockey team? They are two totally different things.

What if it was a fight to death, between a top samurai and a top knight? Would be intersting to see...

my opinion is thhat there sould be a controlled test. but in a fight to the death, the samurai would shurely win. i say that because the fencing sword, even if it hit first, has a very low chance of actually killing you, unless its a DIRECT STAB to the heart, or a STRONG SLASH the neck. the samurai may get cut pretty bad, but id like to see the fencer grab half of his brains from the floor and stick em back into his head.

[sakanasama]

my opinion is thhat there sould be a controlled test. but in a fight to the death, the samurai would shurely win. i say that because the fencing sword, even if it hit first, has a very low chance of actually killing you, unless its a DIRECT STAB to the heart, or a STRONG SLASH the neck. the samurai may get cut pretty bad, but id like to see the fencer grab half of his brains from the floor and stick em back into his head.

LOL closley followed byROFIL and back to LOL

I think we can all agree on at least one thing, samurai vs knight......it would look freaken sweet:D

[Rincewind(-.-)']

my opinion is thhat there sould be a controlled test. but in a fight to the death, the samurai would shurely win. i say that because the fencing sword, even if it hit first, has a very low chance of actually killing you, unless its a DIRECT STAB to the heart, or a STRONG SLASH the neck. the samurai may get cut pretty bad, but id like to see the fencer grab half of his brains from the floor and stick em back into his head.

Yea,I'd love to see how samurai would finish his cut with half of the fencers "sword" in his hand for example or his stomach(thats not a vital point,right??:)))
I mean.....ahhh just get real!!!

LOL closley followed byROFIL and back to LOL

I'm adding 3 ROTFLS and 2 LOLS to that :D

[Sôjirô]

Well actually it's all on the AJKF website. It doesn't say anything about killing people with swords there, unless I'm reading it wrong. So no, you absolutely cannot use kendo to kill people. It's not combat effective at all. The goal in sparring is to use a shinai to strike an armoured target area. It is an abstractification of Japanese sword fighting. By learning to use a shinai to hit armoured target areas you can make points in this regard. I do this because it's fun, gives me a context in which to compete, and probably deep down improves my character somewhat. Also, to me this doesn't remove it from the scope of 'martial art' as its origins are martial and it is an art.

In order to be combat-effective with a sword, i.e. kill people, you have to practice killing people. This is illegal. I ask humbly that you don't do it too often.
kenjutsu? doesnt it practice you to kill ppl? and TO MY KNOWLEDGE (im not perfect, i dont know it for shure) practicing to kill ppl is not elligal if it is done in a safe supervised environment. killing actual ppl is very eligall ,no contest there lol... but kenjutsu is still there, theres a kenjutsu dojo not too far from my house and all i think...
ja ne, those were my 0.02 $

[Penguin Rush]

kenjutsu? doesnt it practice you to kill ppl? and TO MY KNOWLEDGE (im not perfect, i dont know it for shure) practicing to kill ppl is not elligal if it is done in a safe supervised environment. killing actual ppl is very eligall ,no contest there lol... but kenjutsu is still there, theres a kenjutsu dojo not too far from my house and all i think...
ja ne, those were my 0.02 $

From Quebec?

[Sôjirô]

From Quebec?

ueh? what the who is from quebec?

[Kitsune]

There's a not-so-nice guy on another board that says that European fencing is 'superior' to Kendo.


Errr, pardon for my ignorance but, what's fencing? Sounds like having an nice afternoon on a fence

[Mr. T.]

Errr, pardon for my ignorance but, what's fencing? Sounds like having an nice afternoon on a fence

western fencing, sticking the pointy end of your sword in the opponent:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fencing

[Kitsune]

OOOOh, in English is Fencing? In Spanish we call it Esgrima, a nice word that sounds old... Strange word for that sport I used to practice a lil myself, but Kendo it's better (for me I mean)

[drizzt]

Errr, pardon for my ignorance but, what's fencing? Sounds like having an nice afternoon on a fence


thats only in texas ;)

[Kitsune]

LOL!!!:laugh: Is usual in my country too

[Sôjirô]

OOOOh, in English is Fencing? In Spanish we call it Esgrima, a nice word that sounds old... Strange word for that sport I used to practice a lil myself, but Kendo it's better (for me I mean)

and in french its Escrime. resembles spanish hm:silly:

[kenshi07]

I'm pretty sure that even in a controld test, yes the samurai has a major hardware advantage over say a musketeer or person from the florentine(spl) periods what with armour and a weapon that outwieghs its opponents by 1+pounds but it is still all in the fighter not the hardware. Its like comparing 2 cars in a race, the element of the driver alone makes it somewhat inaccurate, thats why jeff gordon wins races not his car, the same goes for these two different styles of swordsmanship from 2 seperate and distinct cultures. But a scientific study could be made pitting each weapon vs. the opponents armour and then adding in other factors and then eventually true life testing in a controled enviroment in fact i think there used to be a show on the history channel that did just that. But most of its episodes featured battles that did happen or atleast could have. Samurai vs. medival knight,or florentine fencer is very unlikley to have never happend. still makes an intersitning subject though...

[Jay Roto]

im new on this site what exsactly is this website for, what do u do? help me im me at lilrotondojrwn

[Mr. T.]

im new on this site what exsactly is this website for, what do u do? help me im me at lilrotondojrwn

It's called KENDO world forum, what do you think this website is about you ...(I better stop here, I’m not in a good mood and my troll alarm just went off :rolleyes: )

[Kitsune]

HAHAHAHA, maybe we should explain him what's kendo:silly:

[Paikea]

I better stop here, I’m not in a good mood and my troll alarm just went off :rolleyes: Ya think? :happy:

[Mr. T.]

Ya think? :happy:

So my troll alarm is a little slow... :rolleyes:

[MrUnWaki]

Please, everyone knows that:

kendo < kumdo < fencing


Kumdo IS kendo, look at the kanji

[chewbooker]

I think that he posted that just to be stupid and didn't really have much meaning behind it. Whenever you post something, you will get that thread that says something nonsensical, especially in a forum that is crawling with immature 13 year-olds like an Anime or video gaming forum.
lol I'm 13...

[chewbooker]

im new on this site what exsactly is this website for, what do u do? help me im me at lilrotondojrwn
lol...wow
why would you register to a forum that you don't know what it's for?? I usually always check out forums thoroughly before I register to them. But come on, KENDO WORLD is quite an obvious name to show everyone what it's about. And if you don't know what it means, then you shouldn't register anyway... sorry if I'm sounding mean but its past 12 in the morning so I'm pretty tired!

[h2o]

I usually always check out forums thoroughly before I register to them. Usually? You mean you go through all the hassle about registring on a forum (often including e-mail verification) without knowing if the forum is about something that interests you? Why? :D

[chewbooker]

Usually? You mean you go through all the hassle about registring on a forum (often including e-mail verification) without knowing if the forum is about something that interests you? Why? :D
lol I meant the ones that interest me. even if its nothing i participate in (like this) if it interests me enough then yes i do go through all that stuff because talking to the people on the forum will let me learn more about the interesting subject that i just registered with. :confused2 did that make sense?

[h2o]

did that make sense?Yes, it did :)

[akumalkenshi]

I'm pretty sure that even in a controld test, yes the samurai has a major hardware advantage over say a musketeer or person from the florentine(spl) periods what with armour and a weapon that outwieghs its opponents by 1+pounds but it is still all in the fighter not the hardware. Its like comparing 2 cars in a race, the element of the driver alone makes it somewhat inaccurate, thats why jeff gordon wins races not his car, the same goes for these two different styles of swordsmanship from 2 seperate and distinct cultures. But a scientific study could be made pitting each weapon vs. the opponents armour and then adding in other factors and then eventually true life testing in a controled enviroment in fact i think there used to be a show on the history channel that did just that. But most of its episodes featured battles that did happen or atleast could have. Samurai vs. medival knight,or florentine fencer is very unlikley to have never happend. still makes an intersitning subject though...

most likely both swordsmen would be badly maimed......

one would be pierced, and the other one chopped.....

with the slightly difference that a puncture wound may heal...

Come on, did'nt you watch Liam Neson in "Rob Roy".....

[kenshi07]

nope, sorry i haven't, haven't even heard of it, but your right, niether one would walk away without a wound, but this is one of those debates that could go on forever:rolleyes:

[Jon Palombi]

The age-old debate...which in and of itself, is a game of circular logic. When a point-oriented swordsman crosses blades with a cutting-oriented swordsman , the result would have to be based upon the superior fighter (on that given day). In lethal duel without armor, were the fighters of equal skill, mutual injuries and/or death would occur. If the Western fencer couldn't land a solid thrust to the Samurai, he would likely loose a limb or be cut so badly as to expire. Were the Western fencer to avoid employing an offensive lunge, he could inflict several punctures to the limbs of the Samurai, slowing him down and taking the wind out of his sails.
If the contest was of sport-fencing, you kinda' end up with the same probabilities. Again, it would be the superior swordsman/swordswoman, not the martial traditon that would prevail triumphant.
Having studied both traditions, I must agree with the previos post, western sport fencing is a youth-driven activity. Most of the fencing clubs are looking to groom future Olypians towards their goal. The older players are often ignored in preference to the up-and-coming champions to be. There seems to be a respectful place, in Kendo/Iaido/Kenjutsu, for the seniors. It seems to be an unstated truth that the Way of the sword is a lifelong path. Perhaps it is because in Japan, respect is given to older people in general. In the West, to be old is to be obsolete. Or at least it seems that way to me.
I believe there is much to learn in matches between different schools of swordsmanship. Through mutual respect and acceptance, we can grow a deeper understanding of our own tradition. As far as which art is better, that remains to be proven.

Yours in Martial Spirit, Jon Palombi

[kenshi07]

i think you just said it better than anyone else

[Gunryo]

i think given the design of the sword alone, that kendo would win that one. samurai Children started learning the art when they were as young as 3 and european fencers ussually began at the age of 16. I think that the samurai has a significant advantage seeing as a Katana is far surperior to an epee, and that the samurai would have much more experience. that is my spiel, it will however never be proven, we can only dream up a vision of a fight with someone like Musashi Miyamoto, and one of the best european fencers(i dont really know any).

Gunryo

[Jon Palombi]

Well, when you put it that way, i agree. Who, in any culture could stand-up agianst one such as Miamoto Musashi? I was trying to think of a good opponent for him, maybe the Italian fencing master Ridolfo Capo Ferro? He was one of the first to formulate fencing theories, circa 1600. He served in the military, obviously fought on the battlefield, and from everything I've gleaned from 17th century Italt, fought in many duels of honor.
Again, I agree that the katana is a superior weopon to a fencing epee. However, this was not the weopon of Rennaissance swordsmen. The eppee is a sport-weopon based on the 18th century dueling sword. While the katana is most definately the finest sword developed by humankind, this alone cannot assure victory. A realistic match-up of swords would be less one-sided. On the battlefield, a 16th-17th century European warrior carried a cut-and-thrust broadsword. They were heavy and were primarily cutting weopons, with a dimond cross -section, that tapered from 2 1/2" at the guard to 1" at the tip. They were powerful swords that could sever limbs, yet had the ability to thrust into chinks in the opponents armor. The primary weopon for civilian use was the rapier. The rapier was a long, thrusting sword with a diamond cross-section of even width, narrowing to a point. This was the sword, so used in romantic fiction, the blade of the 3 Musketeers and the thousands of real-life fencers who fought in lethal duels of honor, in alarming frequency ( given that they were civilian conflicts, brought on by the slightest offense). If you ever get the chance to handle a real 17th century rapier, you will gain a healthy respect. They are beautiful and well-crafted. Picture a 3 1/2 foot ice pick.
Regardless of our martial background, we can surely agree that in the middle-ages, warriors in Japan, Europe, China and Korea, all practiced fencing and some kind of cutting while training in the arts of war. The only truth that remains, when the battle subsides, is: SURVIVAL. In the light of this reality, Musashi certainly is awsome! He certainly is not alone in the context of Japanese swordsmanship. There is a long list of legendary masters-swordsmen, a testimony to the excellence of Bushido!
Thank you for your fine observatiion. As it ever was, we are drawn to polish our Spirit, keeping the Way before us. Keep the Flame of Swordsmanship alive, even as it keeps us alive.

Yours in Martial Spirit, Jon Palombi

[Krad]

This IS the flame section right? :D :D

Fencing is MUCH better than Kendo ! Why? Here's why:

a) You get to wear SHOES and don't need to massacre your feet and spend hours washing them when you finally crawl home
b) You get to exclaim cool things like "en garde!" which you actually know what they mean
c) You don't have to destroy your voicebox in the vain attempt to elicit a Rambo yell "from your hara", whatever your hara is, when you are in any case a GURL* :D
d) You get to play at being a French Aristocrat rather than Darth Vader
e) You don't have to wear a beer barrell around your waist and then have some person expect you to jump up and down in it
f) You don't have to worry about - GAH! - ironing any **** pleats (I don't anyway because I'm yet a mere beginner but I've read the tales of woe heh)
* Or should that be GRRL? Both are Korect as any fule kno
Pauses to remove foot from mouth :D :D :D :D

however, since I appear to be a tasteless masochist with an unfortunate compulsion for the exotic, I'm staying with the stick-bashing :D

Kendo is by far superior to fencing, this is why :cheerful:

a)you don't have to wear shoes, you develop natural ones as you progress
b)you can laugh to people who say "en guarde"
c)you get to yell really loud
d)you get to look like Darth Vader rather than french swordsman (all those jokes about bravery of french soliders... c,c,c)
e)you usualy get to wear do when your sensei decides he should hit you on the stomach
f)you learn how to curse really good while folding your hakama
g)it is just waaaaay cooler

[Lone Kitten]

Kendo is by far superior to fencing, this is why :cheerful:

a)you don't have to wear shoes, you develop natural ones as you progress
b)you can laugh to people who say "en guarde"
c)you get to yell really loud
d)you get to look like Darth Vader rather than french swordsman (all those jokes about bravery of french soliders... c,c,c)
e)you usualy get to wear do when your sensei decides he should hit you on the stomach
f)you learn how to curse really good while folding your hakama
g)it is just waaaaay cooler

I agree - except on the bit about french soldiers, seeing as i'm one at the weekend:laugh:(somewhat like cross dressing at weekends - except this involves a big gun!)

I'm a re-enactor and as one of the scenarios they put on for the pubic they have a duel with sabres.... this one time they were fencing and suddenly everything stops... so we go over... and the general de brigade of the french army has stabbed himself clean through the foot with his own sabre - and this guy has been fencing for 40 odd years! Very little chance of that happening with a shinai! Thing was, he was more worried about the fact that he'd damaged his boot rather than the fact that he's just stabbed himself with a sabre that had spent the last 3 months in his attic covered in dust!!

injuries in kendo are way cooler... I mean, if you get properly stabbed with a broken shinai it tends to look much bloodier and be much messier than being stabbed with a sabre!

[Jon Palombi]

Neither fencing nor kendo is better, or worse. It's the skill of the swordsman, regardless of tradition, that decides the outcome of any bout. Both traditions of sport-dueling, have qualities unique to thier own system. Obviously, what attracts us to a particular martial-path is the pull it has on our own individual Spirit. What is superior for you, may not be superior for me. Sometimes, rarely, what is superior to the individual depends on the circumstances. With some opponents, the cut is the natural responce. In another moment, the deflection/thrust is the key to survival. Ultimately, the more polished swordsman prevails.
Now, a shinai doesn't cut, but a katana does! In real, historical situations, any steel sword can pierce a foot. A fencing foil or epee can only inflict damage if it breaks when severly flexed. The point is blunt.
Both sport-fencing and historical combat contain wonder techniques and artistry. The more important question is how do I become better at my own practice. But for fun and mutual admiration, crossing styles is quite enlightening. As long as we respect our advisary, we can only gain respect from him/her. Eventually, we ripen within the context our our own system, becoming the personification of the tradition.

Yours in Martal Spirit, Jon Palombi

[Kendokami]

I have it on good authority that the people on this forum are full of bullXXXT!
This tread exemplifies the neeed of many small people to have a bigger voice in the world. I giant AMERICAN middle finger Salute to all who bashed the boys original, honest question! If you are from somewhere other than America, then TWO SALUTES for you!

[Mukdo_Centered]

First off, KendoKami is becomming rather annoying. Thank you oh so much for boosting the American image.

Pertaining to the Kendo Vs. Fencing Vs. Midevil vs. etc vs. etc

I think we've established that It's more the fighter than it is the style, and to that I only have one thing to say

"When two tigers do battle, they either both kill each other, or one barely walks away"

[Jon Palombi]

I really liked the image of two tigers engaged in mortal combat! (I've t watched, with fascination, as my cats play-fight for hours.) Yes, if Yagyu Jubei and Cyrano De Bergerac crossed blades, both might perish.
I know somebody thinks it may be bull-poop, but, the original statements seemed to be born of ignorance and club-politics, not insightful observation. The proud fencer, boasting away, ignorant of the fine qualities inherent in the Art and Science of kendo. Quite annoying... The proud kendoka, rightly offended, yet, equally un-aware of the other side's perspective. Each Art is fantastic!
The bottom-line is always about respect. But, then again, I may be full of it... And what, my friend, are you full of? Spirit, spite or spit?
Great swordsmen/swordswomen simply achieve the best,within themselves, that they can cultivate. Which, is what we are doing, isn't it? I, personally, will always strive to improve, and understand the many mysteries of the sword. Which, the Way of, is the ever ellussive challenge. We don't walk the easy road, we hike onto the steep and perilous path. Eyes affixed on the goal, the summit of martial acheivemnt: Self-mastery through swordsmanship.
"My dog's bigger than Your dog. My style's better than Yours..." is the only bull-shit I can smell. We learn so much, when we cross sword-styles. Both about ourselves and our oponents. Remember, the only tradition that prevails on the battlefield, or in the dojo, is the tradition of Self-improvement.
Many thanks to the people responcible for this fine website!

Yours in Martial Spirit, Jon Palombi

[Kendokami]

Jon,
Bla, Bla, Bla, XXXX!
The question is valid as stated first. The issue here is that Folks of the kendo/iaido persuasion vent this BullXXXT air of superiority and a grossly condescending attitude towards ANYONE that does not do as they think they should. Besides, who would go through a better self refining process. Those who fight with steel or bamboo? Or those who dont fight at all and practice Toyama Ryu > Insert Thought> tatami does not cut back, niether did the tied of chinese prisoners of Manchuria. >Ponder>
If Musashi were Alive today, would he advocate encounters with other swordsmen?
Bet Yer AXX he would!

[Jon Palombi]

I can only say,"blah, blah, blah..."Which, Sonny, is the way I seem to express myself. Nobody is above Morality, Integrity, and the laws of Consequence. When you look into the eyes of a Master, there is no superior, nor inferior, no one, but the refection of yourself. Listen, we practice the Way of the sword. We are,I assume, seeking to polish our own Spirit? Respecting other traditions is the least of courtesies we can offer our opponent. What are we without the opposite? Oops, either I'm full of crap, or i am, quite simply, Blah, blah, blah...
Nice bouting with you, Junior, I think we both are aiming at the same level of practice. (I think.) Keep your fury aimed at intolerance and injustice. This turbulent world is full of strife and contrast. Shouldn't we lift our blades, together, towards the goal of improvement, within the sphere of our own lives?
Later. Blah, blah, blah,...can't somone shut this guy up? Sorry. I don't back down. The Path of Bushido calls us to reach inside. Watch YOURSELF. Walk the line you draw. Every warriior has to face his own refection.
Thanks, folks, I appreciate your efforts to carry on the Way of the sword!

Yours in shen Jian/ Sword Spirit, Jon Palombi

[Mukdo_Centered]

Jon, Your a rather interesting fellow. I salute you ^__^

[Jon Palombi]

Thank You, for your kindness. I return the salute. I propose salutations to all those that weild the sword with dignity and honor. We all practice swordsmanship for different reasons. Whether fencing, kendo, gumdo, taiji quan sword, or any of the many living traditions of the sword, we all look into the mirorr of our own acomplishment. Not in an egocentric way. When you want to grow corn, you must till the soil you live on. If you want to learn to cultivate genuine swordsmanship, you need to work within the sphere of your own experience. Which, in regards to the very first statement, by the boastful fencer, brings us to the axiom of this discussion...would Musashi boast about personal preference of style? Or would he simply, and openly, challenge the individual swordsman? Why didn't the fencer proclaim, " I challenge any and all kendoka to cross blades with me!" Talk is cheap. Better to practice modesty and self-analysis (in regards to our personal progress, within the context of our own tradition). Thousands of noble souls have added the pieces of knowledge, together, to create the respected methods of swordsmanship. Yet, without the influx of new practitioners, the tradition is either lost or reduced to theoretical discussion. How excellent it is, that humanity still seeks to learn mastery of swordsmanship, (whatever the lineage). And sometimes, perhaps, martial ambitions lead to far deeper pursuits. Like Yagyu Muneori said, "Swordsmanship is for emptiness in impossible situations."
Thanks, guys, much appreciation for your fine efforts! Yours in matial Spirit, Jon Palombi

" Blah, blah, blah,.." Hmmmmm...full of bullpoop or Bushido?

[xvikingx]

If Musashi were Alive today, would he advocate encounters with other swordsmen?
Bet Yer AXX he would!

He's going to be dissappointed when he finds out there aren't any.
:rolleyes:

[Jon Palombi]

There was only one Lao Tse, one Buddha, one Soctrates, one Sun Tsu, one Michaelangelo, one Takuan, and of course...only one Musashi. Sixty duels to the death! Sixty victories, countless hours of practice and self-analysis beyond anthing consievable in our time. Of course he would find nobody to challenge his ability. If the 17th century was like the 21st century, he may well have looked into other traditions, other cultures, other styles, for worthy advisaries...I believe. (And I could be wrong.)
Anyway, there are thousands of brilliant swordsmen/women practicing the art and science of the sword, today. Maybe not of Musashi's calibur, but pretty awsome. We can't live up to the standards of the warring eras. However, if we don't follow the teachings, in time they will cease to exist. Underneath all the layers of tradition, history and institution, there is still the ultimate confrontation...the mirror of ourself. It is our responcability, our goal, and our duty to learn and embody these teachings.
"Salutations to all that weild the sword with honor and dignity!"

Later, Jon