A specific situation...what would you do?

[Twobitmage]

Lets say you're facing off with someone (both in chuudan) and you're both at issoku itto.

your opponent's kamae seems to be off and the kensen is pointing slightly off to the left so the kote is open.

do you go straight in and take kote? Preform harai/otoshi? back off completely because it looks a bit too suspicious? why would you choose what you chose?

[JSchmidt]

How long is a piece of string?. Who's the opponent and who are you? Do you know him/her? Senior/Junior/Similar?. What's the pressure like and what's his/her footwork like.

Jakob

[ahmed61086]

you ever heard the phrase, "if it looks too good to be true, then it probably is". There are some people who like to make their kamae look weak to induce a certain attack by their opponent, usually i see one of my sensei do this to me, or atleast i think he it, but i try to do the attack he wont be expecting, (even though, he still whoops my ass).

For you situation, i say, if it looks like hes leaving his kote open as a strategy, go for a strong men because most likely he wont be expecting it. Atleat that is what i would do. Or, feint and see if he was thinking you were going to go for his kote. He might be waiting to do a nuki-men after you go for his kote. Just my outlook for now.

Ahmed.

[Twobitmage]

I realize the variables.

the hidden agenda of this thread was to see specifically what you would look for.

[JSchmidt]

I'm looking to be in control. If I'm not in control, it's unlikely that I can hit the kote, even if it appears to be open.

Jakob

[Twobitmage]

I'm looking to be in control. If I'm not in control, it's unlikely that I can hit the kote, even if it appears to be open.

Jakob

so you wouldnt go for it unless you opened it up yourself (with seme or something)?

[Old Warrior]

For you situation, i say, if it looks like hes leaving his kote open as a strategy, go for a strong men because most likely he wont be expecting it. Atleat that is what i would do. Or, feint and see if he was thinking you were going to go for his kote. He might be waiting to do a nuki-men after you go for his kote.Ahmed.

I'd say, here's a man with some good ideas. Either one is a no lose strategy. I'd only take the bait if I truly believed I was so much faster than my opponent that he couldn't defend. But remember, all it takes is a slight twist of the shiai to deflect your attack, so I might suggest jukdo, son mok, muhri (hit the shinai down, go for kote, with men as the intended score)

[Sepiraph]

I'd probably tsuki him.

[Martino]

Committed Semi-Men,
Worse case, they hit me high on the arm.

Need to be balanced,
Once you committe to the cut you can't hesisate or your dead.

Feinting is a wasted opportunity.
But it depends on your own style

[ahmed61086]

Old Warriors my type of guy, lol. Thanks for the compliment.



Feinting just to Feint is a waste of time. But feinting to score can be an essential strategy. When a person is thinking too much (ie. leaving things open on purpose), a fient can create a genuine opening, and if your in the right mindstate, getting the point should be no problem.

Feinting cant be a wasted opportunity if their was no opportunity in the first place. Feiting can essentially create opportunities, which were previously not there.

Ahmed.

[Martino]

Feinting just to Feint is a waste of time. But feinting to score can be an essential strategy. When a person is thinking too much (ie. leaving things open on purpose), a fient can create a genuine opening, and if your in the right mindstate, getting the point should be no problem.

Feinting cant be a wasted opportunity if their was no opportunity in the first place. Feiting can essentially create opportunities, which were previously not there.

Like I finished with my last post it depends on your style.

My concern with feinting when they are presenting an opening is if they are trying to succker you in. You will break your Kami and they will attack, because you are doing 2 movments and your first is not an attack you are at a great disadvantage.

I always work on the assumption that my opponent is doing what they are doing on purpose. If an opponent has lost concentration you can do almost anything you want to win (within reason).
If they are paying attenting and it is jejiko then try different techniques would recomment committing to an attack even if they land a clean cut on you, you can learn from it.
From experance if you feint more often than not they will counter the feint and you will find yourself having to block their attack. (And you don't learn much from it).
Shiani is a different story..........

[RemCo]

I'd say it's time for tsuki-men and a beer

[hyuna]

Question is if the kote is open or not. Just having the tip off center doesn't make it open. You have to gauge your opponent's intent.

Is it keiko? If the tip seems like it is wandering, I'll go for it. Either my partner's kamae needs fixing or my ability to judge the situation needs fixing. Either way, going for it seems like the right thing if the kensen is just wandering around. If the tip seems purposefully moved over and it is a peer or senior, I'll usually go for it. They are probably practicing oji waza and I can practice my attack at the same time. It's all good. Sometimes I'll ignore it and seme and see if a new opening develops. It depends on what we are working on. I won't just back off in keiko, though. If it is a beginner and the tip seems purposefully moved over, it depends on what is going on with them. If I think they are being cocky, I'll go ahead and go for it. In that situation, one of us needs to have some humility beaten into them (and maybe it's me). Otherwise I will try to encourage them to attack instead of going for the offered opening. I don't want to teach beginners to have waiting kendo.

Is it shiai? Then I'll go for it if I think I can take it, and back off if I think I can't. Where "it" is some target. Maybe men is more open than kote...

[Greger]

a light harai, and kote men while we are still at it. this is defenitively not the time for one of those kote, then back off, he will suriage that one.

[hobbit]

I'm with sepiraph & remco, I'd probably go for tsuki.

[Optomitrist]

You dont actually stand there and ponder such things in jikeiko do you? It is all about action and response. If there is an opening and you are fast, take it. Your in a better position to strike than to sit there. you cant win with out attacking.

[JSchmidt]

I'm with sepiraph & remco, I'd probably go for tsuki.

You'll have to expand that..why would you go for tsuki, when the kote is open?.

Jakob

[kuzu70]

Go for tsuki if the shinai is off center.

[tango]

I'll bite on this, too, just for sake of argument...

I'm making a few assumptions on the situation (as others have given valid reasons/questions for 'what if'), but...

Depending on actual circumstances (just how far 'left' is the kensen pointing?), I would either:

1. tsuki

or

2. apply pressure to force the opponent's shinai to his right (to push him towards covering his kote)... if he gives a lot of pressure in the opposite direction, I lift my shinai and his force drives his shinai further to his left (uncovering his kote moreso than when he was in kamae)... kote is wide open and I attack kote.
If I apply pressure and he does NOT give any opposing pressure, then this waza is not going to work... follow up probably with harai men.

...but again, this line of thinking makes many assumptions (who is my opponent, etc.)....

You have to be careful when someone is pointing kensen to their left (opening their kote)... if you go for kote right off the bat, you're just as likely to get thumped with nuki-men. OOF!

[JByrd]

I really could not say what I'd do. There is a lot of spontaneity during keiko.

It seems that the more I have become aware of tactical and strategic logic (ri-ai), the more it seems like matches play out like stories, rather than just a set of independent exchanges. I might interpret an "apparent" target differently, and approach it differently, toward the end of the match than at the start because I have learned something about my opponent in the meantime.

[Theodore]

Interesting article in the Fall 2005 American Fencing entitled "Quantified Intuition: Organize Your Tactical Thinking" by Jason Rogers. He makes the following points:

"As a general framework, fencers usually rely only on their vast supply of memories to choose a particular strategy or action, consequently relying on their unique, intuitive feeling at the moment when the decision is necessary. Although intuition and trust in one's instincts are critical skills in and of themself, this approach has a number of limitations."

He then prepared a short list of tactical situations and then applied attributes which best reflected an action's efficacy, listing (1) technique, (2) reliability, (3) recognizability, (4) psychological effect on the opponent, (5) psychological effect on you, and (6) predictability.

He then applied a statistical model to integrate the information which allowed him to compare his intangible intuition with tangible numbers.

"In summary, because you have neither the time or ability to sort through all the possibilities for each stressful situation, it is essential you do so ahead of time."

[Hai_hai]

Lets say you're facing off with someone (both in chuudan) and you're both at issoku itto.

your opponent's kamae seems to be off and the kensen is pointing slightly off to the left so the kote is open.

do you go straight in and take kote? Preform harai/otoshi? back off completely because it looks a bit too suspicious? why would you choose what you chose?
Their kamae is either on or off. No in between. You get squashed like grape.

[Twobitmage]

I said it is slightly off.

so I meant the kamae is an inch off rather than a foot.

[Alidax]

It really depends on who's my opponent. Every time when I do this I do it on purpose for nuki waza. I can sell it only the people in my level, though. Beginners usually don't even realise the opening, higher grades are laugh at me and score an ippon saying 'nice try'.
When my opponent does it and he is a beginner I decide he doesn't know what he's doing so I go for the kote.
When he's in my level I tend to do a faint kote and go for men.
When my opponent has higher grade...they can do it so subtle that I go for the kote without thinking and realise after that I shouldn't have...