Foam Shinai for Training

[Old Warrior]

This week the Master added something new to training. When he called out a pair for bouting he took their juk do and gave them foam covered weapons like this:

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/tigerstrike-martial-arts/fulconsamswo.html

I'm not sure I like the idea. But, for a beginer like me, who is strugling to overcome hitting too hard, it wipes out any concern for injuring anyone. Also, for the women and smaller students it eliminated their fear of getting hurt. It allows you to focus on the timing and placement of the technique. You still know when you've hit too hard, but there are no bruises.

What's the consensus.

[Neil Gendzwill]

That's a chanbara sword. Chanbara is a word which refers to old samurai movies, which are kinda like westerns in Japan. It also refers to fighting with these foam-covered weapons, in a number of styles (different lengths and staff weapons too I think). Not very highly regarded amongst kendoka but I wouldn't want to second-guess your sensei.

[Steve Bishop]

You will learn nothing...are you practicing kendo?
As with the Hasegawa (carbon fibre) shinai, too much flexibility does not allow you to gauge the correct amount of te-no-uchi to apply to a strike. So, if you are "over-hitting" can you learn any more from a "sword" that flexes diss-proportionately to the energy of your strike? As for women and "smaller" students, why do they "fear" a strike more than you?
Steve B

[Old Warrior]

As for women and "smaller" students, why do they "fear" a strike more than you?

Because they are 100lbs lighter, less than 1/2 my age, have no other martial arts experience, come from protected lives in upper middle class homes, are not used to fighting etc. etc. etc.

I don't have fear related to the activity except my recurrent knee trouble. Actually, I share your opinion, but 5 months into the study doesn't give me the right to express my opinion. I just say yes and do what I am told. Whatever the reason, Master Seong doesn't have to share it with me.

[Shikai]

Old Warrior and others;

"Higher conciousness through harder contact"

- you will learn nothing from using a soft shinai and your opponant will learn even less. This is the difficult thing about kendo, you must get to the part where you are learning to control your contact and your opponant must learn to absorb, deflect and parry hard attacks. If you delay this critical process, you will dimenish your appreciation for the basic thing you are trying to learn here . . .you are using a real sword, they hurt.

I have a very low threshold of pain, but kendo has taught me to face the fear of that hurt and move on. In fact, I have learned to hide my entire body behind my tsuba domo (circluar hand guard that slips on the shinai) to avoid the pain.

Instead of supplying beginners with foam shinai, I would suggest a more appropriate approach would be to supply the beginners with sempai who have control and tolerance. I wish to also say that your sensei has his reasons, and I am of no position to question any sensei.

My sensei's greater mercy - was in showing no mercy.

BTW Old Warrior, "the pen has lit more fires than any match ever has." M. Twain

regards, Paul

[Old Warrior]

I suspect when one is running a commercial enterprise the approach to learning may be a little less than traditional. Also, I think the fact that my class has participants of both sexes running from the ages of 11 to 54 has some part in the mix. My wife has said to me on a number of occasions "If our child was in your class I would never allow him to fence with you".

I guess the vast majority of posters to this board are hard line traditionalists. If I knew more, I might agree.

[Shikai]

Old W - I cringe at the suggestion of commercialism influencing traditionalism . . .but it is true, and unfortunately necessary.

Kendo IS hard, that's why relatively few people start and even fewer remain long enough to desensitize their wrists and heads!

There is a pragmaticism to the necessity for foam shinai's. I simply yearn for the days in my previous life when we didn't have shinai and practice with boktoh! Bamboo shinai were the foam issue of the day then!

Practice hard!

regards,
Shikai

[Old Warrior]

Shikai

My first intoduction to the shinai was in 1967. I was a student in a Shotkan Karate dojo. When sensei walked around and your stance wasn't quite perfect, he issued a bit of correction with the business end. So, holding a foam shinai seems a bit like giving in to the wussy factor. But, I'm old, fairly hard and used to rough treatment. If I was the focus of your marketing - you'd be out of business.

[mingshi]

Originally posted by Old Warrior
My wife has said to me on a number of occasions "If our child was in your class I would never allow him to fence with you".

That's strange. Plenty of Sensei have their children practicing together with them. What's wrong with fencing your own kids?

Back in Hong Kong, I remember the local resident 7Dan Sensei has his 2 boys (7-8 years old I think), wife, and (during holiday) his 7Dan sister, all in the same dojo. Now that's a scene.:rolleyes:

[Shikai]

Hello Mingshi,

I think old warrior was refering to the fact that he hit and was hit too hard for his wife's liking, and that this wasn't something she wouldn't tolerate for her own children. I too am taught by a 7d who includes his two children, ten and six, in his class. However, they do not keiko. Also, Old Warrior is American, and American mothers are differently protective of their children than mothers in most other cultures. And, most American men are, unlike other cultures, quite afraid of protective mothers!

regards, Shikai

[Old Warrior]

Shikai has the idea. I am 6' tall and weigh 230 lbs. If you hit me hard and I reflexively hit back hard I could do someone 1/2 my size injury. The fact that I may not intend to do so is of no consequence. Since I am beginner and do not have the control I should - this is a likelihood. Someone 1/2 my size is simply unable to absorb punishment of my misplaced do cut that hits the elbows, without injury. No American Mom would let her child bout with me if she watched the event once.

Since all the youngsters in my class are of Korean descent, their parents might feel somewhat different - but I'm not sure. As a lawyer for 30 years, even I question if it is appropriate. And, I have over 20 years in the martial arts and European fencing. I just haven't learned proper control of my cuts - yet. I try very hard, but to be honest, when a 16 year old gives me a good rap on the head, I tend to get very serious about what I'm doing.

For whatever it's worth my teacher is a very prominent 7th Dan who I find to be a terrific teacher. I think he is searching for the right mix of training techniques to keep it interesting so as to minimize attrition and yet protect the younger and smaller participants. He's already pounded me enough to let me know what it's like to get hit; although the kids wail away at me all the time. I just don't complain, never show that it hurts and try my best never to strike out too hard in a spirited response.

Lastly, being with the kids is fine for me. I'm the problem, not them.

[William Honda]

Old Warrior,

Do not be too hard on yourself. Control will come with time. Keep at it and be conscious of your kendo (and with whom you are fighting with).

Try not to force it. Your kendo will mature with time and practice.

Best wishes,
William

[Karaken]

OW, maturity plays a lot with any Asian Arts. It's part of what you do and how you react. Also, it is a difficult balance for a sensei to keep everyone motivated to be a serious Kedoist at the same time not losing younsters because you're being too serious all the time. If you lose all the kids Just because you want to keep the tradition, that will be very short sighted approach. They are our future and that's why we need to encourage them to continue.
At the same time, you still have a lot to learn from youngster's pure men that doesn't have any complex logic behind it ( Kamae, footstep, ki, kai, janshin etc... ). Everytime I have a Kakarikeiko with kids I always appreciate the simplicity of their stroke compare to older beginner's agony of complexity ( Grip, length of backswing, not too hard, tenouchi etc etc... )...
The bottomline is we all learn form someone and teach someone at the same time. The sensei's role is to keep it interesting and balanced..


Center........I once was young too....

[Chusan]

Back to the question.
Foam shinai-like training swords...
Don`t know.
Why not try it? Seems quite funny and interesting.
I`ve been practising swordsmanship with weapons made of steel, hardwood, rattan (yes, some here know what I`m talking about, I`m quite sure :) ), carbon, bamboo, latex, so why not foam. If it works, it`s okay, I guess.

[Old Warrior]

"The sensei's role is to keep it interesting and balanced."

I absolutely agree. And, the foam weapons allow the youngest and smallest to take on the biggest brute with impunity. Yes, I understand the feel is different, your swing may not be the same, it's contra to tradition, etc. - but it gets everyone involved and excited.

Changing the subject slightly - do they cheer in other dojangs when people spar? The Master claps and cheers for good points. At first it seemed really strange (because of apparent lack of solemnity), but now, I join in with the spirit and vocalize for the training partners I like. I'm a 54 year old straight laced lawyer, married forever, with grown kids and I find myself during the day, when things are stressfull - looking forward to the evening's class. Interesting and balanced - yup, that's what its all about. I'll never be Musashi.

[aru-ma]

Chusan, would you indulge me more on this weapon made out of rattan that you speak of?

[Chusan]

@ aru-ma
No problem. Rattan weapons are being used as the main material for constructing weapons in the ´Society for Creative Anachronism`, a kind of medieval-reenactment society with some thousands members around the world. They practise a special close-combat system based upon full contact, you`re supposed to wear functional armour made of rigid material plus a very good helmet made of steel. Rattan is used because it does not (NOT!) splinter.
SCA-combat is an interesting thing and if there`s any SCA-group around where you are living, it can be interesting to visit their fighting-sessions.
The following link might be of some interest:
http://www.bellatrix.org/school/fightmanual4.htm

[aru-ma]

That was interesting, the only rattans I know of are used to make furnitures. Thanks for the info:)

[munenmuso]

Here, rattans are widely used in arnis de escrima, a native martial art using two sticks for fighting and selfdefense.

I saw that documentary about the Japanese who developed Sports Chanbara and its equipments. Some of his innovations are inflatables for maximum safety and are widely used by children in Japan.

[Marine_Boy]

In my kashima studies, we use a leather padded shinai. But it is a lot heavier that a normal shinai and if hit hard with one, it can cause more damage than normal shinais!

Stan

[mingshi]

Originally posted by Old Warrior
No American Mom would let her child bout with me if she watched the event once.
Okay. I understand your point now, BUT isn't it even worse? Instead of hitting your own kids hard, you are now hitting other people's kids? :D Think about their parents!!! :D

On a more serious note about Foam Shinai (or similar training weapon)... I still think that any equipment that doesn't break will promote bad habits (i.e. Conan cuts). Yeah, kids fighting each other with Foam Shinai is cute, but because they do with 100% of their force, it'll eventually become "violence".

On the other hand... argh, bloody beginners with Carbons!!! They break Bamboos, and they think, "hmm to reduce the cost, I'd have Carbon." NOOOOoooo-----!!! What the...? Breaking Bamboo too many times is already an indication of not having energy control or proper Ten-no-uchi. Buying something that doesn't break will not help you to realize it at all!! Please, for the love of your fellow dojo mates, stop using excess force!! (Sorry but I witnessed a Kohai breaking Carbon 2 weeks ago. Just plain scary...)


I just don't complain, never show that it hurts and try my best never to strike out too hard in a spirited response.
No complain... I believe this is rule of the house, and this is what everybody does. At least for those who stay after the first few weeks. Recently I realize that there is nothing other people do in Kendo that I can be angry about. It is even wrong to be angry about myself... Just a waste of energy and concentration. Have to stop being emotional, and let's not treat your opponents like they've killed your father :D

Enjoy. :)

[Paburo]

in our dojo they only use chanbara-to for 3 yr olds who want to spar 'like the big guys'.

the only time i'd use them would be in the case i'd have to train or show a technique with an armourless aite.

[Karaken]

OW, Musashi had a miserable life as far as I'm concerned.
Anyway, our dojo has once a month internal tourny and yes there's a lot cheering going on. We also have new year Red vs. White competion where we split into two team and do baloon bash attached to the top of your mengane.
Now that's a noisy day. You not only worry about people in front of you but also a little kids you can't see approaching from behind you... And then we all share sweet bean porridge.

I bet Musashi never had that kind of fun.. :-)

[Marine_Boy]

Anyone remember that episode of the Simpsons where they all go into family therapy. They were all hitting each other with these foam sticks, were these also chanbara???:rolleyes:

Stan:D

[Sinta]

Originally posted by Marine_Boy
Anyone remember that episode of the Simpsons where they all go into family therapy. They were all hitting each other with these foam sticks, were these also chanbara???:rolleyes:


LOL that's the image I got while reading this thread... *whapwhap* ...mmm.. feel better.