Fumikomi and the katana?

[Musha]

I was reading an article in a Japanese kendo magazine about the katana and it's relation to kendo.
Some thing interesting about a tameshigiri story: A kendo 8th dan and kendo shodan both went to a class to learn tameshi giri. The 8th was not instructed by the sensei and took a swing at the straw in the kendo style. The man hit the straw and stopped waiting for it to fall.
"Uh?! What?" He said as the straw did not fall. The shodan was instructed as to how to cut the straw and performed a effective cut to the straw.

The man telling the story a hachidan sensei who understood pre-war kendo and the way to use the sword said most 8th dan kendo sensei would not know how to use a real sword..

I was thinking about the use of koshi in kendo and what I have read about the American studying pre-war kendo and other things.
We are told in kendo to use koshi for speed and foot work but what if we remove the foot work and use the koshi to cut with the sword.
I think the correct way to cut with the sword would be performed.

I believe this to be a two step action. Imagine a men cut without the run through. The player steps forwards and strikes men. He then snaps back his foot and brings him self into balance again.

Now think of tameshigiri the man steps forwards and strikes the straw. He then pulls his koshi forwards and down.
This is like laying a cooks knife on a pice of meat and slicing it. A peace of meat can not be struck like a bat.
I'm starting to think pre-war kendo was first to hit the opponent then bring the koshi down very quickly as stated in the Americans account.
Modern kendo only depends on the first part of the cut and the final slice is
Left out. I think pre-war kendo would look like modern kendo if it was speeded up 10 fold because the action could be performed and look the same as modern kendo but have allot more power that is almost zero now. If you have ever worn an old men for practice you would understand how hard it is, not for comfort but because of the heavy cuts that were performed.

Any views on this?

[Greger]

you cant just base everything on one rumour you heard of.

[Optomitrist]

the firward swing of a shinai is a bit diffent than a forward swing in iaido. I can see where you are going.

[MikeW]

The use of koshi movement is integral to kendo and includes (but is not limited to) the beginning movement and the follow through. The shinai is an extension of this (as it is an extension of the body, not just something you hold in your hands). Kenshi should be using their body and spirit to drive through the opponents body and this is why you want to stick the shinai on target (whether it is men, kote, do , etc) and slice through. A good men strike is not where the shinai hits the men and pops off, it is where the shinai hits men, sticks there and the body drives it down into the skull (in an imaginary sort of way obviously). It's hard for me to explain correctly I'm afraid but this is the way I have learned kendo. You need to finish your strike. That said, you needn't stop and step back, you should let your body follow your spirit and drive through the target.

[mystic_kendoka]

most hachidan kendoka do iaido as well, so tht article is moot :P

[s][nFesT]

i was just about to say that. kendo and iaido go hand in hand. and they skip, skip, skip down the path to enlightenment...er...ya.

[hamish]

What 'American's account' are you talking about? Watch some pre-war kendo, there are more than enough videos out there.

A lot of 8th dan were doing kendo before the war. Pre-war kendo doesn't equal 'heavy cuts', and basing that on an old men is a big stretch.

[WolfofMibu]

kendo was not meant for traditional sword combat in the samurai style. traditional sword fighting is iaido or kenjustsu. Kendo was not made for samurai duels. it has been modernized so no injury can result.

[Musha]

I'm talking about this account http://www.auskf.info/mainpages/article2.htm

'Shikake waza was executed as if using a real sword - ozawa (technique with small motions). There was constant and great emphasis on tenouchi (literally "within the hand"), delivering the blows, making the cuts, and the movement of the fingers and wrists, as the shinai is about to strike the men (mask) or do (plastron). In shomen the wrists were rotated even further inward and locked. There was shime (pressure at the instant of impact) for both shomen and do, the strike was completed with a slicing movement with both hands on the hilt, and the hips were lowered. All strikes were made much more strongly than now. In matches the shimpan in denying a men point, would say "Karui. tori-masen'; "light, won't take it".'

[stuartwilson]

If your Kendo Kata is good, you should be able to cut. A correct cutting stroke works with the shape of the blade to effect a slicing component in the sword's motion. Properly executed Kata includes this. The difference with Kendo is that the motion of your shinai is stopped abruptly, with the energy absorbed by the target bogu and flexure of the shinai. (The latter being considerable.) And neither is the shinai curved.

Yet, when cutting a substantial target, more body motion, especially in the hips, is used. But a well-done cut, no matter how formidable the target, succeeds because the blade remains in the plane of the cut and the motion of the blade in the target has both parallel and perpendicular components.

[Hyaku]

I have seen a very experienced Kendo/Iaido Nanadan bend a perfectly good weapon as he did not understand the neccessity of correct tenouchi and use of hasuji on cutting His mistake was using too much shibori. You can practice for years against an imaginary opponent and not realize until you actually cut something.

The thing is to use kahanshin/hara to generate the power that drives a cut the foot must be firmly placed momentarily before the cut. This goes against Kendo principles. Its all Ki-ken-tai-ichi. Spirit-sword-body as one but one can still have different timing.

Watching a 1940's video(old movie) of Kendo one reaches forward with the right foot and drops very deeply with the hips. The left foot remains static and turns sideways. After an attack they then slide the right foot back to stand in the higher posture. No one goes through. Looks a lot more like old fencing footwork with deep strong cutting action.

[Musha]

If you watch these two videos thanks to Awooga it seems like none of the fighters actualy do fumikomi:

Try to move the video to 53 when the man is at Issoku-itto the mai. If he was fencing in the all Japans or Keisatsu-cho I am sure he would have made a great fumikomi forwards and lots of zanshin. Instead his front foot never leaves the floor. He never does zanshin or fumikomi...
http://rapidshare.de/files/7666021/945_02.wmv.html

The next video on the other hand does have some zanshin and what looks like fumikomi.
http://rapidshare.de/files/7665522/1154_20.wmv.html