Movement restriction based on hakama / keikogi?

[adolchristian]

Greetings all! I have been practicing kendo for about 4 months, and my master has told me to begin saving and looking into what I want for my hakama, keikogi and bogu. He thinks it should be my decision on what to get, just as long as it's not extremely cheap (like those "light-weight" combos you can find for about $40). I will worry about the bogu after I've chosen hakama and keikogi. One decision at a time...

ANYWAYS, I've spent at least 3 hours using the search function here, and reading online, but I still cannot decide what kind of hakama and keikogi I want. :happy: (College student = lower budget).

The point of this thread: One thing that I have yet to find opinions on, is do you feel that what type of clothing you wear affects your ability to move freely? Quite obviously, this is important.

Of course the more expensive hakama and keikogi will last for more years if taken care of properly, but I'm wondering if there is an actual weight difference, or possibly drag on your legs between some of the light weight stuff and say the 10,000 "heavy-weight" hakamas. Also, can you feel weighted down if you choose a double-layered (or "double weight") keikogi? Or is there not an actual noticable weight difference between the 5,000, 8,000, or 10,000 double-layered / single-layered keikogi, and so really it's just a matter of comfort then? The point of the hakama is to help hide your leg movements, so isn't having a lighter hakama imperative? I'm one of the more muscular members of my dojo, so this may not be an issue at all...

Personally I think that I would prefer a single layer keikogi, particularly since I'm hardly scared of getting occasional bruises on my fore-arms. When I was younger my best friend and I came up with a great idea. We got some pvc pipe and foam swimming pool noodles. Then we cut the pipe to a desired sword length and slid the foam noodle over pvc. Then we duct taped the whole noodle so it stayed preserved better, and duct taped the handle where the noodle ends on the pipe by your hands. Now these things would often hurt like hell , especially on your knuckles or getting hit in the face, but it was so much fun that we had to play it all the time. I think having so much fun with these dangerous contraptions had a lot to do with where my original interest in kendo came from. I'm just glad I didn't get blinded or anything :ko:

Ok, sorry, life story = finished, can anyone answer my original question? :silly:
My budget really cannot allow me to spend more than $200 after shipping for both hakama and keikogi. Of course if what is most compatible with me is less money, then that is better. ;)

[nodachi]

You won't feel a difference in movement based on the type of hakama and gi you buy. Some will feel warmer in summer than others, but movement won't be an issue. Buy something that is good quality and will last. Other than that, buy whatever you want.

[adolchristian]

Thanks, I hadn't really seen that addressed anywhere.
I really like the dark black color of this keikogi:
http://www.eguchi.net/hayate-keikogi-blue-full-JPG.jpg
website: http://www.eguchi.net/cart_gi_3.htm
Item #G7

I'm not too keen on the whole "bleeding" indigo... at least my first impression is that I would enjoy something colored like the link above.
As far as hakama goes, can anyone recommend a dark-black color similar to that keikogi as well? I never really have liked navy-blue much (Do you guys really like your indigo color?). I wonder if the black will fade into a less appealing grey though, and I've heard that as the indigo fades it looks even better.
I'm thinking maybe I should get a tetron hakama because I'm newer to kendo. Ebogu carries the "65% Polyester and 35% Rayon" tetron hakama, but does anyone know the reason why stores catagorize the 100% polyster one with other martial arts like Iado or Aikido? I read that the 100% is much better if you can afford it (I don't know why though). Thanks again for any help.

[DCPan]

The point of this thread: One thing that I have yet to find opinions on, is do you feel that what type of clothing you wear affects your ability to move freely? ;)

Well, in terms of hakama, the 10000 weave looks nicer and will not be as clingy on your legs as say, 5000 weave. Conversely, it's a little warm for summer. Most people find the 7000 or 8000 weave to be good compromise, if you want just one hakama.

As for single and double weave, I use to think it didn't matter, but after wearing single weave for more than a year then putting on a double-weave again, I personally felt weighted-down after sweating for a bit. Also, the thickness of various double-weave can vary too...

I think though, the biggest difference between using a double and a single weave is that if you already have some girth, having some thick fabric there will make it harder for your hands be at the proper height in chudan...simply because there is more stuff there. That's also why I stopped wearing an obi for kendo practice...while it gives the hakama himo some backing to prevent rolling, it adds to the propping up your chudan effect.

This is particularly noticeable if you practice iai...I struggled with the finishing hand position for ages when training with a keiko-gi on...once I moved to the thin polyester top...problem solved....

I wouldn't stress too much about it either way...

[DCPan]

I'm not too keen on the whole "bleeding" indigo... at least my first impression is that I would enjoy something colored like the link above.


Get the BIO keiko-gi and hakama then...the indigo dye is set by enzyme so it won't fade.



As far as hakama goes, can anyone recommend a dark-black color similar to that keikogi as well? I never really have liked navy-blue much (Do you guys really like your indigo color?). I wonder if the black will fade into a less appealing grey though, and I've heard that as the indigo fades it looks even better.

Get a black hakama.



Why stores catagorize the 100% polyster one with other martial arts like Iado or Aikido? I read that the 100% is much better if you can afford it (I don't know why though). Thanks again for any help.

Not any more...the fieldsensor keiko-gi is 100% polyester and it's for kendo...though no online vendor carries it yet as far as I know....

[Musha]

I think when choosing a keikogi and hakama it is all about the style and feel you want. There is no set back to the type of hakama you get all. The thing you really need to think about is getting the fit right. If your clothing is too big or small it will look wrong or be annoying during practice. The way you wear it is also not like normal western clothing, every thing in Japan is adjusted. The keikogi needs to be pulled down to flattern the back out and hakama needs to be pulled up at the back too.

[adolchristian]

Thanks for the in-depth response DC-Pan. I found this just minutes ago:
http://www.umich.edu/~umkendo/hakama.pdf
Maybe somebody should sticky that pdf somehow so noobs such as myself aren't asking the same questions over and over? ;)

Eguchi has the Fumitake Seiran Keikogi which has a fieldsensor inner layer and black top. (Item #G7) Sounds like a win-win to me, I think I'll get that one. :)

They also have a black %100 polyester Iado hakama:
http://www.eguchi.net/cart_iaido.htm#b
Is there anything I should know before getting this hakama? I read somewhere about loops that kendo hakamas have in the back (for the armor harnessing I guess), whereas Iado do not have the loops. I suppose I'll have to call Eguchi to find out if the loops are there if no-one here knows...
If anyone else has tried the %100 polyester and can compare it to something else 'd really appreciate it! Thanks again.

Edit: Maybe I'm wrong about Iado hakamas not having the "loop" or "spoon"... I'm not sure.:confused:

[EBP2K2]

I bought 10,000 hakama, and have practised in it for half a dozen times, and washed it once... it's still like a 17th century victorian dress puffy... x.x

[nodachi]

Black hakama are relatively normal, but are you aware that the keiko gi is indigo due to traditional reasons. The typical kendo colors are white gi (for beginners and girls (in some dojo) or really cool sensei) and indigo. I have seen black gi in other sword arts like in some iaido dojo, but not kendo. Be careful or you are going to stick out like a sore thumb. Some of your choices are going to be dictated by tradition and how things are done in kendo, so be careful about what you choose just because you like the way it looks better.

Although if the gi is listed as a kendo gi, even though it looks sort of black in that picture, I bet it is just really dark blue and will still fade and bleed and look blue in normal light.

Just thought I would warn you.

[adolchristian]

In the video here: http://www.kendo-world.com/downloads/index.php

The finals between Harada Satoru and Uchimura Ryoichi, it looks like they're both wearing black, or at least very dark blue. Of course my goal isn't to look like them, I just prefer black over blue. I'm not an outgoing enough person to want to "stick out like a sore thumb". And in my own defense, I am excited about learning the different kendo traditions ;).

But really, has anyone here used a 100% polyester hakama before?

[enkorat]

I put together a short document last year for our newer members in our club. It is available here http://www.umich.edu/~umkendo/hakama.pdf Hopefully you'll find it useful.

People will of course have different opinions and different dojo's and sensei's will have different policies, so please double check with someone you train with before you start spending money...

[bullet08]

is it me, or does it seems like kendo is only the martial art where practitioners are so conscious about what uniform to use.. color, size, fabric weight, thread count..

pete

[egtirello]

I just prefer black over blue me too , but when I ask my sensei if I can have a black uniform the answer was No, It must be blue, so before you buy it ask your sensei if you can get it black or not, if he agrees then no problem, if not try to find a dark blue ( i did that :happy: )

[Neil Gendzwill]

The finals between Harada Satoru and Uchimura Ryoichi, it looks like they're both wearing black, or at least very dark blue.

If it's a couple of Japanese guys, they'll be wearing blue, it was probably just their nice tournament keikogi that hasn't been washed much, very high quality and still dark. Consult with your sensei before choosing any other colour than blue. I don't have a problem with blue, black or white personally but some sensei may prefer uniforms that are... uniform. Personally I love the look of indigo.

I find the tetron hakama to stick to my legs and be uncomfortable, most people never go back to them after switching to cotton. They are cheap and very easy to care for though, so I always recommend them to beginners.

[LNGUYEN]

I got my single layer gi and cotton hakama 2.5 years ago and they are still very good. The cotton hakama ventilate better than tetron so you wouldn't feel too hot down there. I don't know it is just me but I learned how to take care them very quick and didn't have any problem like losing a pleat. Most of Kendoka love indigo blue, it is very dark blue and fading with time to give you nice color. First, you will little uncomfortable but it get comfy in no time and after you have bogu on and other people try to hit you, you don't even think about it anymore. If you reach higher dan, with or without gi and hakama you will move like a wind :cheerful: . Most of high ranking Kendoka and Sensei prefer thick and heavy stuff.

[DCPan]

But really, has anyone here used a 100% polyester hakama before?

Yes. I bought a navy Tozando AH-500 (aikido hakama) with added plastic koshita piece for iaido-use, but wound up using it for kendo pretty much. The 100% polyester is awesome and way more comfortable than tetron.


is it me, or does it seems like kendo is only the martial art where practitioners are so conscious about what uniform to use.. color, size, fabric weight, thread count..

pete

LOL, from I hear, there is a lot more regulation in judo because the fit of the keiko-gi will affect how your opponent is able to grab your gi and throw you.

Personally, I think it is just a phase....

[adolchristian]

DCPan: Thanks for your help, I definitely like to try polyester given how much softer it should be.
Do you know why there might be such a price difference between these two?
http://www.eguchi.net/cart_iaido.htm#b
http://kyudo.tozando.com/yh500.html

I think my other choice is between these two:
Tetron 70% polyester/30% rayon:
http://www.budo-aoi.com/k_hakama_tetron_01.html
Tetron 65% polyester and 35% rayon:
http://www.budo-aoi.com/k_hakama_tetron_02.html

I don't understand this though, I would think that the one with higher polyester percentage would be the deluxe version ;). Anybody know if having 65% polyester / 35% rayon versus 70% poly / 35% ray will make a significant difference in the airflow / sweating of your legs? Or is the difference something else...
Thanks, you guys have been really helpful so far!

Enkorat: I saw that already (see earlier post) and it was very informative. Great work!

[DCPan]

DCPan: Thanks for your help, I definitely like to try polyester given how much softer it should be.
Do you know why there might be such a price difference between these two?
http://www.eguchi.net/cart_iaido.htm#b
http://kyudo.tozando.com/yh500.html


Not having used either product, I really can't tell you.

Not all tetron are made equal you know...it's like comparing 100% cotton jeans of different brands...some are better than others....

Here's the one that I used:
http://aikido.tozando.com/ah500.html

Caveat is that the overlap between the left and right leg is more shallow than a kendo hakama for shikko (crouching walk) in aikido practice....

Honestly, at this point, you might want to go to an event and actually touch the stuff that they have on display...the numbers don't mean very much as it doesn't tell you the weave pattern or the quality thereof.

FWIW.

[adolchristian]

I found some %100 polyester shorts that I have and held them up to the light, and they seem kind of shiny. Is your hakama shiny? Like I said earlier, I don't really want something that sticks out terribly. :)

[JoonShik]

e-bogu.com has a set that is $64, its pretty, the only con to that is that the hakama doesnt have the stitching for the the pleats, but its easy to keep the lines.

[DCPan]

I found some %100 polyester shorts that I have and held them up to the light, and they seem kind of shiny. Is your hakama shiny? Like I said earlier, I don't really want something that sticks out terribly. :)

It is slightly more shiny than tetron. Like the description, it has a cashmere-like luster.

Not to the point of sticking out though.

[adolchristian]

Are you sure e-bogu does? I sure can't find it. I see their black tetron 65% polyester 35% rayon, but that's the closest. Have a link you can share?
Edit: Ok, thanks DCPan. It looks like with shipping included the one from Tozando would cost $165 USD. That might be barely out of my budget... but that's my top pick if I could choose >_<

[Kingofmyrrh]

Just for your info, both the original picture you posted and the players you referred to are all blue, even though they might look black. As Neil pointed out, new stuff is very very dark.
As to the weight, I can certainly understand where you're coming from, but you have to consider the fact that you're going to be wearing 5-6kg of bogu on top of all that soon enough, so a few hundred grammes of fabric really isn't going to make all the difference.
Personally I'd advise cotton, as basically everyone comes round to it eventually - but then again, my first hakama was tetron, so who am I to talk?!

[ShinKenshi]

Indigo appears, from a distance and through not so clear video, to be so dark that it might be black but it really isn't. Indigo is a dark blue dye and as a plus, acts as a natural deoderant to a certain extent. My suggestion is to go with the cotton keikogi and hakama rather than polyester or rayon. Polyester doesn't breathe so you're going to be sweating like crazy in it. Also, part of getting your hakama is learning how to take care of it by properly folding it and maintaining the pleats. The cotton also provides a bit of padding in the event a shinai is off target.

It might cost a bit more to buy cotton, but it lasts and is worth the investment.

[addicted]

I put together a short document last year for our newer members in our club. It is available here http://www.umich.edu/~umkendo/hakama.pdf (http://www.umich.edu/%7Eumkendo/hakama.pdf) Hopefully you'll find it useful.


I just saw your guide. Really helpful. Thanks.

[Hai_hai]

The point of this thread: One thing that I have yet to find opinions on, is do you feel that what type of clothing you wear affects your ability to move freely?
Getting the correct size.


Also, can you feel weighted down if you choose a double-layered (or "double weight") keikogi? Or is there not an actual noticable weight difference between the 5,000, 8,000, or 10,000 double-layered / single-layered keikogi, and so really it's just a matter of comfort then?
Weight of heavier hakama or keikogi is not an issue. It's a couple of ounces.


The point of the hakama is to help hide your leg movements, so isn't having a lighter hakama imperative?
No.

[Lloromannic]

Ok, sorry, life story = finished, can anyone answer my original question? :silly:
My budget really cannot allow me to spend more than $200 after shipping for both hakama and keikogi. Of course if what is most compatible with me is less money, then that is better. ;)

I bought this (http://kendo.tozando.com/clearance/ssp5.html) set. The keikogi is alright, standard keikogi. The Hakama is very nice.

[rottunpunk]

i went to e-bogu
think it was this combo,http://www.e-bogu.com/Light_Weight_Keikogi_Hakama_Combination_p/ebo-com-hak-hqcotcombo--.htm
...but it was a couple of years ago that i got mine.
its pretty good quality, and wont cost you as much in postage as it cost me.

nothing beats my 30 year old white with diamond pattern keikogi though-they just dont make them like they used to
:p

[adolchristian]

Wow, the same keikogi for 30 years? On that note, who holds the record for using the same equipment for the most years? Or is that worthy of a new thread ;)

[rottunpunk]

indeed that may need a new thread.

it wasnt my gi to start off with (i have 2, one has flowers on) as im not that old. chidokan kindly gave them to me when i started iai. but yeah, they are tough stuff, the stitching hasnt gone and as they are lightweight, they are great to use for summer.
:p