Are Gradings necessary?

[Chusan]

When you succeeded in passing a Grading in Kendo you`re usually quite happy. Someone might have said some words like these to you:
"Okay, now it`s done. You must go on with working and be busy with training."
If you didn`t succeed, you`re probably quite unhappy. Someone might have said some words like these to you:
"Okay, now it`s done. You must go on with working and be busy with training."
So, whatever the result of any Graduation is, the meaning is the same: go on with training, keep up working on your personal Kendo.
Which leads to the question: are Gradings really necessary?
Whether you pass or not, it`s always the same result: you must go on with your training. So what??

[kendomushi]

Gradings or ranks in kendo and most other activities that have them serve sereral purposes.

1. Establish order and precedence, who is in charge, who answers to who.

2. Establish legitimacy. Without gradings established by a formal organization, anyone has the right to say they are an expert, master, founder of anything they care to. Yet from so called expert to so called expert the level of actual skill and ability can be at opposite ends of the spectrum.

3. Provide encouragement by confirming the students progress. In most everything we do, no matter how good we get, we most often can learn to do better. But if you have no standart by which to compare and chart your progress, how do you know you are imporving?

4. Weed out those without the dedication, patience, desire, and will to rise in the ranks. Kendo especially is a difficult art to master and only those with the right temperament are successful in the long term. People without the necessary traits often drop out after just a few classes. If there was no grading system, or attaining grades was made much easier, every "Conan the Barbarian" and movie ninja "wannabe" would swamp dojo and kendo would cease to be kendo.

5. Preservation of tradition. The gradings are of course modern conventions, but the difficulty in attaining them helps maintain the traditions and regimine of kendo. Remember, kendo is a budo - a martial (MILITARY) discipline. We practice it as a sport, but to keep it from becomming like Tew Ryu Ninjutsu, we need the discipline and structure inherent in a proper martial art.

6. Equity. Entering shiai would be pointless if you had no concept of what the actual skill requirements were and what level you and your opponent are at least roughly supposed to compete at. The gradings ensure as much as possible that you fight someone of comparable level and thereby have an honest chance to win. We train and run kendo as a martial discipline, but we practice it as a sport.

7. Humility. Having the gradings remind us that even though we have made great progress, we still have more to learn.

I'm sure others can come up with more reasons the grading system is of value. This is just my take on things. I know that here in Japan, when interviewing for jobs as you graduate from university, your degree in economics, biology, or whatever, is of less significance than having a 4-dan in kendo. It shows that the person is dedicated, reliable, strives to attain a personal best, is willing and able to help those under him, and is not afraid of a challenge.

[Tato]

"Mai d'ounnours che d'ounnours"
In ancient provenzal it means "more honor than honours", it's a family motto but it suits well kendo philosophy and the question.

Necessary?

Well, I guess that no, if you can manage to progress in your art without being messoured or tested, and yet progressing, then you don't need gradings.

I know that there're a few kenshi that can do such a thing, I can't.

(by the way Kendomushi, even if I agree with some of your points, I feel that you may have been too much time under military authority, formal ranks are not necessary a good indication of who knows what, and in many situations only show a burocrathy in action)

Rei

[Chusan]

Originally posted by kendomushi

4. Weed out those without the dedication, patience, desire, and will to rise in the ranks.



To be true, I am not really interested in ´rising in the ranks`. I guess it might be more important to proceed with training, with learning, under all circumstances and with real dedication to the art of Kendo, not with the dedication of rising in the ranks.
I`m interested in Kendo, not in ranks.
When I practice Jigeiko I usually don`t ask, which rank the other has, he/she will show the personal Kendo within the sparring.
Same is true with Shiai: I don`t mind playing with NooBs and I don`t mind playing with Hanshis, I take them as they come.
Sometimes it`s more difficult to deal with a NooB than with an expert, by the way...
Just my POV, anyway :beard:

[kendomushi]

Chusan-
You are right in that for example we never ask what someones level is other than to observe the proper politenesses. But even that little bit is a part of kendo. The reigi are essential and governed by rankings, senior to junior, teacher to student. I too have no burning desire to climb the ranks, but I do strive to improve and it is a good feeling to be recognized by those learned teachers over me as having imporved. Also as to fighting in shiai, most people who see that they obviously have no chance to win each and every time would eventually stop competing.

Tato-
Kendo is a military discipline. Short and simple. No two ways about it. However, I never said that the gradings were accurate. I know many people who do not perform up to their level and many more who perform well above their level. However, as kendo is a military discipline with a formal structure, the ranks are needed to place people within that structure.

[Paburo]

kendomushi >>

if kendo is ALL that military, then what is kenjutsu?

isn't kendo an evolution of kenjutsu into a non-military focused practise instead?
to me kendo is not a military art anymore(in the most literal sense), in which you learn how to kill the enemy in the most effective way.
but it's not a sport either, where there isn't much philosophy or 'depth' beyond the training.

anyway, i think here in spain grades are far less important than in other countries. why?

-tournaments are all against all. no rank categories.
-the sensei-senpai-kohai structure is very loosen-up. everybody treats everybody with the almost the same familiarity, whether top sensei or newest student.
-spanish people are not familiar with the japanese system of kyuu-dan. so your grade towards the society is pretty irrelevant.

of course, there are a lot of other people like me who think of grades as a challenge you must surpass in order to keep your kendo fresh and motivated towards improvement.

[Tato]

Kendomushi, I know that kendo was based upon military discipline, as lots and lots of both oriental and occidental disciplines.

And in kendo there are so many elements that come stright from army (like the formations, and uniformity in mouvements at the begining and in the end of keiko, in fact I was amazed when I realized how familiar it was to me, due to my own army time).

I believe, and from what I've understand after reading many of the posts in this formun, and from what our senseis have teached us, that kendo is no longer a military discipline, but something broader, budo as a way for self developpement ( as opposite to than bujutsu).

And for Gradings, I think that they mean more what Paburo, I and other people have say than a military structure. But may be I'm too occidental, far too rational, and a newbe on top of that.

Will be interested in reading what the other veterans on this formun have to say about this issue. (A new thread?)

Rei

[Chusan]

@kendomushi
Well, most sports have military roots. From Javelin to Fencing, from Swimming to Riding - all of it used to be some kind of military exercises in earlier times.
Fortunately, these times are gone and today the sport exists on its own purpose.

I did not go for exactly that topic. (However: who wants to join the armed forces, may do so. No need to join a kendo-club for that purpose, I suppose...) What I`m thinking about is:
no matter whether you succeed in an exam or not - the result is the same:
Go on with exercising, don`t think of the exam.
For our practical daily training-routines it is without any use, whether there was any exam or not. We need to improve our skills ever and ever, otherwise it won`t be Kendo anymore.
I don`t say ´Gradings are useless` , no, I`m just asking a question: ´are gradings necessary?`.
AFAIK, gradings were introduced to Kendo in very recent time, I guess around the first third of the 20th century. So gradings aren`t really significant traditions of Kendo, it seems to me.
I`ve been thinking about that for quite a long time, but haven`t yet found any reasonable answer.
Tricky...

[kendomushi]

Chusan,

In the pure pursuit of improving ones own kendo, you might be able to say that gradings aren't of use. However, kendo would not be what it is and you would have little or no guidance in imporving your own skills if gradings hadn't been established and persons with the right to do so hadn't set forth what kendo is and is not.
Without this formal structure, each and every person would be his or her own school of swordsmanship. And while we might all become great masters of what we think swordsmanship is, we would not be doing what we all think of as kendo.
Also, you say that so many sports have military roots and these times are thankfully gone. While I agree that I am most happy I live in a time where I do not need to walk around with a sword on my hip, the modernization and sports evolution of kendo is what caused gradings to come into existence in the first place.
So at a minimum, gradings are necessary for us to have guidance from authorities on what kendo is.
Kendo is as you say a sport, therefore it has a formal structure, rules, regulations, and governing bodies. Without persons of recognized appropriate gradings, would kendo be what you and I both enjoy? To be honest I doubt it. We recently had to, for the first time in my 10 years doing kendo here, had to eject someoen from the club. He refused to have anything to do with reigi and concepts of kendo. All he wanted to do is learn to fight. But kendo is not just fighting, not just practicing for yourself, it is an all or nothing proposition. We don't have to agree with all of it but we agree to it when we join in.
These lines from the concept of kendo relate directly to the idea of gradings in my mind:
"To strive for improvement in the art of Kendo,
To hold in esteem human courtesy and honor,
To associate with others with sincerity,
And to forever pursue the cultivation of oneself."

No, to strive purely and exclusively for improvement in your kendo skills, gradings are not needed. No matter what your grade, you continue to practice and train. But if you want more than just to be the hottest sportsman in the kendo world or the most dedicated cloistered devotee of kendo. gradings and with them concepts of personal development, human interaction, respect and more are a part of it all.

[kaburakikun]

one reason that gradings are very useful is to make kendo easier to teach and to learn. your grade in part tells you what sort of thing you should work on. for example, one sensei told me when I was getting ready for nidan that I should try to get a good sensei of debana timing. then later, now that I'm preparing for san-dan, I've heard that I should start getting a good sense of suriage timing. I find that to be very useful for me.

k-kun

[Confound]

Kaburakikun has a bit of a point about gradings and 'what to work on', but I'd rather rephrase it a little. Grades are an indication, to a sensei or sempai, of what to expect from a student. It would be unreasonable to start critising more advanced concepts in a student who has yet to pass a kyu grade, or sho-dan. At this early stage, it is best to focus on kihon.

Also, for those who compete regularly, grades can make a big difference. Many taikai have different divisions, classified by grade level. Believe me, it is not fun to get yourself smacked into the dirt by someone who has 4 grades, and 20 years of experience more than you, especially when all your sempais and senseis are watching, trying not to giggle (or groan, as the case may be). To say the least, it was an experience I won't soon forget. All 3 minutes of it...

Gradings may not have much meaning to those who seek self-improvement through kendou, but at the same time, passing a gradnig does have its rewards. It may mean you no longer have to sweep the dojo floor (though by all means keep doing it if you like).

c

[Paburo]

Originally posted by Confound
Also, for those who compete regularly, grades can make a big difference. Many taikai have different divisions, classified by grade level. Believe me, it is not fun to get yourself smacked into the dirt by someone who has 4 grades, and 20 years of experience more than you, especially when all your sempais and senseis are watching, trying not to giggle (or groan, as the case may be). To say the least, it was an experience I won't soon forget. All 3 minutes of it...
i don't agree. i must admit that at first it's very frustrating to compete in tournaments with no rank divisions in which being a newbie you have to fight ppl up to godan (no rank divisions in spanish tournaments).
but in the end it's more challenging. and your kendo improves greatly (after some tournaments you even get to beat a couple yondans :D ).
we all know godan not always necessarily mean 'skilled kenshi' and ikkyuu/shodan 'unskilled kenshi'.

i shouldn't say this, but right now i find it very boring to fight other ikkyuu/kyuu. even some crappy shodans/nidans. what is the point in fighting in shiai someone who doesn't ask the very best of you?


Gradings may not have much meaning to those who seek self-improvement through kendou, but at the same time, passing a gradnig does have its rewards. It may mean you no longer have to sweep the dojo floor (though by all means keep doing it if you like).
in my dojo, none of us have to sweep or take care of the dojo whatsoever, that's gym's crew task. another reason why ranks are not-so-important here!

[Confound]

I am grateful to anyone who practices with me, however, it is not very educational to have your very first shiai against someone who is so much better. Yes, I learned a great deal, but it was pretty disappointing to lose without even coming close to scoring a point, when there WERE opponents against whom I may have stood a fair chance of winning. The taikai was fairly large, it could have supported at least two divisions, easily.

I didn't say my comments were relevant to everyone. Spain is definately different from Japan, which is in turn different from many other countries. That is a point that does not require great wisdom to grasp.
c

[Hai_hai]

Well, wouldn't it be odd if after you graduated a level, someone said, Great, you can quit now.

[Ares2907]

Originally posted by Paburo
i shouldn't say this, but right now i find it very boring to fight other ikkyuu/kyuu. even some crappy shodans/nidans. what is the point in fighting in shiai someone who doesn't ask the very best of you?


It's a pretty shallow viewpoint to have, imho. You can *always* learn something from your aite, no matter what rank they hold or their current ability. Whether that be practising waza that you aren't ready to try on your peers, or watching how your aite gives himself away before beginning a strike (or the myriad other things you can do instead of wasting your time and whining about your aite being a scrub), it's up to you.

As you progress in kendo, you also begin to have a responsibility to bring out the best kendo in your aite. Start to look for ways that you can bring your kendo to a level just above theirs without compromising the quality and intensity of your training. It's not always easy, but it is often neccessary and I find, often very rewarding.

[JSchmidt]

" however, it is not very educational to have your very first shiai against someone who is so much better. Yes, I learned a great deal"

Erhh...which one is it?

[Confound]

Mr. Schmidt,

It is not very educational, but I learned a great deal. I know so very little that there is much for me to learn. However, I could have had a longer shiai with someone closer to my level, which would have given me more chances to try different things, and to respond to the opponent.

They can both be true. However, there is a tournament this week, with a lower division, hopefully my next match will go into encho.

c

ps - If you are Batman, can you tell me what all the bats in the batcave eat? How do they get in and out of the batcave without anyone noticing? Exactly what kind of bats are in the batcave? Strange questions, but they've been bothering me for years.

[JSchmidt]

Bats eat batfood and they get in and out using the secret batdoor and the type of bats is batbats.