No 8dan Champs?

[munenmuso]

Just wondering....

If being a hachidan would mean that your kendo is supreme and sometimes they're considered as a kendo god, how come there are no hachidan champions in the AJKF or WKC championships.Based on the records, winners are usually on their 5th 6th 7th dan and there are even some 4dans.No hachidans. As far as I know, some past champs are already hachidans like Kenichi Ishida who won the 1983(?) AJKF championship convincingly but I never heard any hachidan winning an AJKF Championships. Does it mean that they don't join competitions and win them? Or their status dictates them not to join competitions for obvious reason?

[Lynn]

just a thought......maybe at their level, competition doesn't really mean anything to them already. i guess many of the hachidan senseis has evolved to a level where they no longer have to prove yourself in competition. and one other factor could be their age i guess.....i've never heard of a particularly young hachidan sensei. but i could be wrong. :P

[Neil Gendzwill]

For competition at the world level, peak combination of ability and speed is generally around age 30-35. Minimum age for hachidan is something like 42, and most people don't pass it until later (Ishida took 5 tries IIRC). So basically, by the time you have hachidan you're getting too old. Plus their interest in that sort of competition generally changes as they get older. Ishida said he had to change his style completely to pass. Take into further account the fact that only about 1% of people pass each year and you see that the pool of hachidan competitors is pretty small.

There is an 8th-dan only competition every year in Japan.

[Karaken]

It just might be that the qualification for Hachidan is not the type of qualification that wills the tournament. It'd be interesting to see if Miyazaki would compete in AJKF if he ever make it to Hachidan. I think he can get there around 40.

Center - no - hachidan - men

[KATSUJIN]

Dont mind this message that it is out of track but.....

:eek: Lynn is from Singapore?

[munenmuso]

Do you think if ever they join the competition and lose it would only embarass them more because achieving hachidan is the ultimate goal of serious kendoka especially in Japan. It's even harder than the bar examination and one of the hardest exam in human endeavors, out 720 examinees only six will pass. So losing in an official competition is a shameful one, like a god losing to a mere mortal analogy. Could this be a reason why they are unofficialy forbidden to join competition?

[AlexM]

Munen, hachidan are just too old and they don't fight the same way as do the 20 to 35 year olds. It's not the same kendo. The hachidans probably used to fight like the young guys did but they moved beyond that (both mentally and physically). They just can't do sport-type kendo anymore, they probably don't want to either.

A hachidan vs. a young Miyazaki in his prime would simply not make it. Not because his kendo is worse, but because his kendo is different (at least that's what I've been told). Great, it sounds like an advocating sports-kendo...

This one of the problems with Westerners who sometimes take hachidans as the examples of kendo to emulate. The fact is that hachidan don't start out by doing hachidan kendo.

Besides, past a certain age people just stop competing against the physically best and would rather fight people with a different outlook on competitions. I don't think it's a question of there being some kind of informal ban on hachidan in the AJKC, but rather a choice on the part of the hachidan.

I'd be really curious to see comparaisons between M.Miyazaki when he was winning the AJKC nearly every year and what his kendo would be like in an 8th dan competition (assuming he makes the cut).

[hamish]

The All Japans requires an awful lot of training and winning competitions to get there, which takes quite a toll on your body, and your life.

Sooner or later, everyone gets to the point of "I'm too old for this shit!" :)

[hamish]

PS If you've been following the Hachidan Says column in the magazine you'll be aware of what they look for when judging (and sitting) the 8th dan grading test, and its certainly beyond winning a few shiai.

If you're striving for loftier goals, what does a competition mean, anyway?

It's certainly beyond any concern about losing face, as people like that usually don't make it to 8th dan anyway.

Hamish

[AlexM]

Originally posted by Hamish
Sooner or later, everyone gets to the point of "I'm too old for this shit!" :)

Oh

my

God.
.
.
.
.
.
THE MODERATOR SAID S***!! THE MODERATOR SAID S***!!

Who do I report this to! This can't be happening.

My entire value system has just crumbled. I mean, if a moderator can't control himself then who can? I used to look up to the moderators but now I don't know what to think...

(note: it's 3 am, paper is due tomorrow morning, starting to hallucinate, disregard most posts until I get some sleep)

[Stan]

The 7th&8th Dan tournament will be held in Kyoto starting May 3 of this year. I think it is always held in Kyoto during "Golden Week" (?). I will have the privilege of watching this event this year in Kyoto. So I will report back to you folks on the outcome. The Sensei I am visiting in Japan will be competing as a 7th Dan. My hope (dream) is to meet Iishida Sensei. I really admire his kendo.
Apparently there is a practice hall that is set up so again (fingers crossed and praying) I hope when I am practicing I bump into one these kendo "Gods" who feels like dealing out a beating for a Canadian Kendoka.

[Chusan]

This is not only a Kendo-topic.
The same thing is true with Western Fencing. Professional Fencing-Masters don`t participate at normal tournaments. There are special events for Masters. Not because Masters (Pros) are better, but it`s a different thing. A gold-medalist will probably kick his master away during a sports-tourney, but this never happens, because they don`t play in the same league.
As far as I know, the 8th DAN Kendo incorporates some REAL teaching-license (at schools, universities and so on) ? So it has a very real meaning and importance in public life? (Speaking of Japan, of course).

[KhawMengLee]

At the same time, just because you are great soccer player does not mean you can coach and just because your a great coach does not mean you are a great player.

Can't the same apply for 8th Dans?

[Kendoka]

Originally posted by Stan
The 7th&8th Dan tournament will be held in Kyoto starting May 3 of this year. I think it is always held in Kyoto during "Golden Week" (?)...

My hope (dream) is to meet Iishida Sensei. I really admire his kendo.
...

Stan is right, the hachi dan champ is part of Golden Week, which is a week of exhibitions and celebration held in Kyoto that celebrates those of us that are getting on a bit !!

And Stan, if you would like to meet Ishida sensei, then come to Australia next week!! He will be visiting with 3 other senseis including Hideaki TAKAHASHI.

http://www.nswkendo.org

:)

[KhawMengLee]

To qoute Monthy Python:

"You lucky bastard!":p

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by KhawMengLee
At the same time, just because you are great soccer player does not mean you can coach and just because your a great coach does not mean you are a great player.

Can't the same apply for 8th Dans?
Uhm, no. They're great players. They're not all all-Japan champions, but they're all really good. They have to play each other, in front of 14 judges, in order to pass.

Put it this way: ever play a high ranking sensei, jump in from the outside while he's standing there and tag his kote? Note how you get the overwhelming impression from him of "so what?" It's like that. The question you gotta ask is: if it were shinken shobu, would that have worked? Because that's what they're interested in.

A shiai judge is not interested in whether you break your opponent's kamae to take the point. But at the highest levels of kendo, that's the main thing. The cut is the finishing point, just an outward indicator of what has already been accomplished. You know that feeling when the shinai is coming at you, it seems like you've got time to do something but there's nothing you can do...

I'm not saying my kendo is there, but that's the goal.

[Stan]

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill

...The cut is the finishing point, just an outward indicator of what has already been accomplished. You know that feeling when the shinai is coming at you, it seems like you've got time to do something but there's nothing you can do...

I'm not saying my kendo is there, but that's the goal.
I am not saying that my kendo is there either but..

Have you ever noticed playing a high level Sensei that they are able to wait until you are convinced that your shinai is about to strike men and then all of a sudden they parry or move out of the way. I beleive that the "Void" (ie the fifth book in "Go rin no sho") not only refers to an empty mind but also to distance (you folks remember your high school math - the limit as distance approaches zero). The closer the katana/shinai gets to you and still being able to react is what separates those Hachi Dans from the rest of us lower form of kendoka. Their timing and ability to wait until their opponent is totally committed to one direction and then move out of the way and strike this opponent as they go flying by slicing their shinai beautifully through empty air. And several of the revered Hachi Dans have, in the past, won in the All Japan's .

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Stan

Their timing and ability to wait until their opponent is totally committed to one direction and then move
They aren't waiting for you to commit - they are causing you to commit, then taking advantage of it. That's why they don't need to move quickly.

[Stan]

Damn! The ol' Jedi Mind Trick:D

[munenmuso]

I'm sure Ishida sensei's kendo is still vicious and fast. His swordsmaship is still legendary, I wonder what he can do against Miyazaki's kendo now that he is already an eight dan. Speed and a hachidan degree against the genius of a sixth time AJKF championship. Wouldn't that be interesting to see?

[smith]

We must be careful of awarding too much significance to competition results. Like a photograph they are only a snapshot from a particular moment in time, not the whole truth. Granted winning the All Japans is a significant achievement, but it is fleeting. The ideal of 8-dan, and especially hanshi, as I understand it is that it is a 24/7 condition, not a bunch of laurels to be rested on.

[Kendoka]

Originally posted by munenmuso
I'm sure Ishida sensei's kendo is still vicious and fast. His swordsmaship is still legendary, I wonder what he can do against Miyazaki's kendo now that he is already an eight dan. Speed and a hachidan degree against the genius of a sixth time AJKF championship. Wouldn't that be interesting to see?

You are talking about a sensei and one of his students here !!

Imagine - an Ishida and a Miyazaki in the same dojo??!!

[megumisita]

I wouldn't rely on age as the main reason as to why they don't compete. I agree with others when they say that they have moved on to a higher level. For example, Kotaka sensei is 67 years old and looks like a feeble old man. Lee sensei who is not older than 35 and has won championship in Korea and is increadibly fast but still cannot best Kotaka sensei. Although my sensei has been doing kendo for 60 years could be a factor. But what I'm trying to get across is that when they fence, Kotaka sensei doesn't move until the opponent has moved and then it is too late for the opponent. Lee sensei practices modern kendo, Kotaka sensei practices classical kendo, maybe this also has something to do with it.

[munenmuso]

Hachidan kendo is old man kendo- reserved but subtle, slower but wiser.:D

[Confound]

One can only do so much to stave off the effects of old age. Honestly, when you're in your 70s, and a proud 8 dan kendouka, no matter how good you are, no matter how much you love kendou, the aching in your joints will win out in the end. If your knees ache for days after a few hours of practice, you're not going to want to compete much.

Also, competition and grading kendou really are different, that is a point that hardly needs belabouring.

Even if your body is healthy, years and years of the same thing over and over can get boring. We are human after all, novelty wears off. Besides, I'd like to think that as people get older, some of them, at least, grow wiser. We could argue that competition in kendou is another form of competitive sexual display, and beyond a certain age, the need for display declines. (The theory works for other 'sports', why not kendou?)

Though I wouldn't call it 'old man kendou', munenmuso's comment is right, in some cases. One of my senseis is a tricky little man, he's a nana-dan, and his kendou is not 'old man kendou', it's more like trying to fight with a reactive mirror. It may be painful, but you come away knowing where you're weak at least.

c

[munenmuso]

Nicely put Curmudgeon, nicely put.:)

[Stan]

Hey Folks,

As I promised, here is my report of the Kyoto Taikai. First I want to say that it was not what I was expecting. The 7th and 8th Dan tournament is not a winner take all type of taikai. Actually each kendoka gets only one match. They are matched up according to age and are usually from different prefectures (hopefully so they have not played together before). The winner of the one match gets to keep the paper with the names on it. Basically it is just a fun 3 or 4 days of kendo. Beautiful kendo I might add. It was kind of hard to get a seat in Kyoto's old budokan. It was general addmission and free so it was quite crowded. The highlight for me was the morning practice where the Hanshi Hachi-dans were motodachi. I played 3 or 4 of these 8th dans. The various levels are indicated by a stripe on their tares (red meant hanshi 8thdan). One person I played was 80 years old and he still dealt out a beating...in fact he beat most of who he played. It turns out that Yamazaki Sensei was the 1968 all Japan Champion. I played a couple of others but I could not read the kanji on their tares.

The other event that was going on in Kyoto was the gradings. I watched some of the 7th Dan grading. Wow! Beautiful kendo. One person did nitto for his test. It was the most beautiful kendo. He was dead straight and when he moved it usually was to connect with his target. I was thoroughly impressed. Also at the same time there was a prefectural tournament in Osaka. That was also very impressive. A lot of the big names were there. I happened to bump into Ando Sensei (the current ZNKR Champion). I also had the pleasure of meeting Iishida Sensei (my kendo hero). He was very courteous and signed a hachimaki for me and I got a photo with him. The kendo was also pretty spectacular. A couple of the matches had kedoka leaving the shiai in the air. One guy almost took out the time keepers table. For the most part the kendo was hard and fast. I did not get a chance to see the final...sorry.

Bottom line, if anyone ever has the chance to go to Japan..definitely go to Kyoto and try to go for Golden week because there is tons of kendo. Also Kyoto is beautiful too.

[Confound]

Stan,

Did you watch the team matches at the Osaka taikai? Some of my sempais were there, and the Miyagi team did really well.

c

[Stan]

Confound,

I only watched the team matches because that day I was shuffling between Kyoto and Osaka. The 7th dan tests and Osaka prefectural tournament. I had to leave before the end of the finals between Osaka and ?? (I forget, I need to learn to read more kanji!). As I said some matches were pretty rough but very exciting. Congrats for you Team members in Miyagi.

Stan

[Hai_hai]

Yeah, I wasn't able to make it to the last tournament. Most of us 8th dan dudes are usually shopping for the latest Hello Kitty items at the Ginza district.

[Confound]

Hai_hai, go play with a rabid wolverine.

c