aikijodo?

[rottunpunk]

heyhey
im buying my first jo in aikido tonight. hopefully we'll be doing some stuff.

ive never done jo before.
i know aikiken is completely different from iai or kendo, so i was wondering if anyone knew whether jodo differed a lot as well?

if so, what are the main differences?
bit of a random question, but my aiki teacher is letting me do real cuts instead of aikiken ones, so i want to do 'real' jo work as well

also, is there a difference between jo's as there is in bokken. they all kind of look the same to me. im a weak little girly so will i be better putting off buying a club jo and getting a light one off the net?

any help will be greatly apprecieted. thanks
:p

[chidokan]

Ive got a little one that will do for you if you like... see john sparkes for aiki jo when you come back, he's excellent. Seitei jo is a bit like the kendo kata, quite formal and rigid compared to the advanced ryu you can find if you go looking for them. Lost interest in it myself, why fight with a broken spear anyway when I have a perfectly good sword?!!:D :D

[John Seavitt]

i know aikiken is completely different from iai or kendo, so i was wondering if anyone knew whether jodo differed ...


Aikijo (as taught in the vast majority of aikido dojo) is quite different from koryu jo; there's no reason to believe that they ever shared a historical connection. As with aikiken, the purpose of (the vast majority of) weapons work in aikido is to instruct and illustrate aikido principles. Of course, this remains a perfectly worthwhile pasttime.


will i be better putting off buying a club jo and getting a light one ...


That there'd be in the category of "ask your sensei", but it sounds like someone in your neck of the woods can help you already. Depending on where you are the answers tend towards selecting a length based on your measurements, or having all the practitioners use the same length.

John

[roar]

Ive got a little one that will do for you if you like... see john sparkes for aiki jo when you come back, he's excellent. Seitei jo is a bit like the kendo kata, quite formal and rigid compared to the advanced ryu you can find if you go looking for them. Lost interest in it myself, why fight with a broken spear anyway when I have a perfectly good sword?!!:D :D

Aiki-Joe is just dancing with a stick. Better sign up for a real dance-class. (duck for cover) :D
Jodo is jodo, there are only small technical differences between seitei-jo and their koryu "originals". If done with the proper fighting attitude, you would not see the difference. Formality and rigidity my ass. At sandan/yondan level all serious jodoka take up koryu, depending on availability and exposure of course. As in znkr-iai, too much dojo time is consumed by gnawing on the seitei, as preparation for grading and taikai. The level of stink in a given kata that you find in both seitei and koryu is all about attitude and spirit, not koryu versus seitei.
What you learn doing only seitei, versus going for the whole shebang, is another discussion.
The didactic advantage of seiteijo versus seitei iai, is that you find the seitei-kata 99% intact in the koryu system, so they are not bastardized and somewhat alienated from the old forms, like znkr-iai versus msr/mjer.

:alien: :alien: :alien:

[rottunpunk]

heyo.
thanks for the info. and yes i will ask john.
it turns out we didnt do any jo work on friday after all.

im not wanting to start jo as i do enough already, though wouldnt mind having a play at it.

the point being that if i did get into a fight theres often a pool cue or broomstick handy and i might as well look stylish whilst bludgeoning scally scum to death-ish - hehe

:p

[Aden]

The didactic advantage of seiteijo versus seitei iai, is that you find the seitei-kata 99% intact in the koryu system, so they are not bastardized and somewhat alienated from the old forms, like znkr-iai versus msr/mjer.

IMHO the differences are a bit bigger than that - one sixth (kata 2 and 4 of the 12 ZNKR jodo kata) are not from the koryu to start with (though I believe that they are now tacked onto the end of omote in some places), and the differences in some of the others are significant enough that in my practice I treat them as essentially different kata to reduce bleeding between styles since I do not know them well enough to have it all internalised and flow with the behaviour of the sword (eg hissage is definitely different - not just the teki using a shoto in koryu and a tachi in znkr, but the precise positioning of the stick behind the leg, the method of the kuritsuke).

Some like monomi I find essentially the same, for others like tsukezue the difference is trivial. The week before last I got to do some wandering and had a refresher in kata 3 to 7 from seitei on the Tuesday in Melbourne and attended a koryu dojo in Sydney on the Saturday where I was doing omote, including 4 of the kata I had been training in in seitei - the differences in footwork, angle, timing and target in these common kata between omote and seitei was re-emphasised for me.

Aden

[roar]

suigetsu and shamen have a special positition. As they are placed in both omote and seitei, they are in "a way" koryu kata, while they are too recent inventions to be really called koryu. Shimizu sensei didnt reserve them for seitei as far as I know.

I like the final movement of the jo in raiuchi koryu version. Also cool to do ranai with kodachi.

[R A Sosnowski]

suigetsu and shamen have a special positition. As they are placed in both omote and seitei, they are in "a way" koryu kata, while they are too recent inventions to be really called koryu. Shimizu sensei didnt reserve them for seitei as far as I know. ...


I do not recall that in the Nihon Jodokai's syllabus. Suigetsu and Shamen are part of Seitei, but NOT part of Omote; that's the way that I have practiced them here and in Japan. They are considered "Police Kata;" there is a third one - "Uchiotoshi" which is very rarely taught, but it was taught at the November Gasshuku in Kashima according to our returning attendees.

[roar]

I have had them placed in omote by my znkr jo instructors, and I see that the people in IJF, according to P. Kriegers book, place them in omote as well. For those who do not do seite-jo whatsoever, when are these kata learned?

I have heard about uchiotoshi, but never seen or done it. Is the basic outlay short and "to the point", as suigetsu and shamen?

[R A Sosnowski]

I have had them placed in omote by my znkr jo instructors, and I see that the people in IJF, according to P. Kriegers book, place them in omote as well. For those who do not do seite-jo whatsoever, when are these kata learned?
My reading of Krieger (1989) is that there are 12 Kata in Omote (p. 261); and that Shamen and Suigetsu are outside of the scope of SMR, Shimizu-s. placed them after the Omote series, and that they are included in ZNKR Seitei Jo Gata (p. 314). Krieger included Suigetsu and Shamen in his chapter on Omote under the heading of "Tokushu Waza (Special Techniques)" with the previously mentioned caveats.

Just because people practice them sequentially does not mean that Suigetsu and Shamen are part of Omote.

I am not familiar with anyone not teaching Seitei along with SMR.

I have heard about uchiotoshi, but never seen or done it. Is the basic outlay short and "to the point", as suigetsu and shamen?
Yes, but even more aggressive. It is included in "Jodo Kyohan" (1976) by Kaminoda Tsunemori and Nakashima Asakichi along with Suigetsu and Shamen in a special section at the end of the chapter on Omote.

[roar]

Thanks for your precise references, I read on page 314: "They may be taught within the framework of Omote, even though they do not form part of it."
Aaawright ;)

I will have a look at uchiotoshi in Jodo Kyohan after tonights practise, a friend in the dojo has the book.

[rottunpunk]

swoosh and right over the head that lot went.

so back to stupid questions, whats the correct grip and stance for jo work?
ive seen videos on the net but they were a bit grainy.
:p

[roar]

swoosh and right over the head that lot went.

so back to stupid questions, whats the correct grip and stance for jo work?
ive seen videos on the net but they were a bit grainy.
:p


Try asking at JO´s garage
:D




JOE'S GARAGE

It wasn't very large
There was just enough room to cram the drums
In the corner over by the Dodge
It was a fifty-four
With a mashed up door
And a cheesy little amp
With a sign on the front said "Fender Champ"
And a second hand guitar
It was a Stratocaster with a whammy bar


We could jam in Joe's Garage
His mama was screamin'
His dad was mad
We was playin' the same old song
In the afternoon 'n' sometimes we would
Play it all night long
It was all we knew, 'n' easy too
So we wouldn't get it wrong
All we did was bend the string like...
Hey!
Down in Joe's Garage
We didn't have no dope or LSD
But a coupla quartsa beer
Would fix it so the intonation
Would not offend yer ear
And the same old chords goin' over 'n' over
Became a symphony
We would play it again 'n' again 'n' again
'Cause it sounded good to me
ONE MORE TIME!
We could jam in Joe's Garage
His mama was screamin',
"TURN IT DOWN!"
We was playing' the same old song
In the afternoon 'n' sometimes we would
Play it all night long
It was all we knew, and easy too
So we wouldn't get it wrong
Even if you played it on a saxophone
We thought we was pretty good
We talked about keepin' the band together
'N' we figured that we should
'Cause about this time we was gettin' the eye
From the girls in the neighborhood
They'd all come over 'n' dance around
like...

Twenty teen-age girls dash
in and go STOMP-CLAP,
STOMP-CLAP-CLAP...

So we picked out a stupid name
Had some cards printed up for a coupla bucks
'N' we was on our way to fame
Got matching suits 'N' Beatle Boots
'N' a sign on the back of the car
'N' we was ready to work in a GO-GO Bar

ONE TWO THREE FOUR
LET'S SEE IF YOU GOT SOME MORE!

People seemed to like our song
They got up 'n' danced 'n' made a lotta noise
An' it wasn't 'fore very long
A guy from a company we can't name
Said we oughta take his pen
'N' sign on the line for a real good time
But he didn't tell us when
These "good times" would be somethin'
That was really happenin'
So the band broke up
An' it looks like
We will never play again...

Joe:
Guess you only get one chance in life
To play a song that goes like...


Mrs. Borg:
Turn it down!
Turn it DOWN!
I have children sleeping here...
Don't you boys know any nice songs?

Joe:
(Speculating on the future)
Well the years was rollin' by, yeah
Heavy Metal 'n' Glitter Rock
Had caught the public eye, yeah
Snotty boys with lipstick on
Was really flyin' high, yeah
'N' then they got that Disco thing
'N' New Wave came along
'N' all of a sudden I thought the time
Had come for that old song
We used to play in "Joe's Garage"
And if I am not wrong
You will soon be dancin' to...

Central Scrutinizer:
The WHITE ZONE is
for loading and
unloading only. If you
gotta load or unload,
go to the WHITE
ZONE. You'll love it...

Joe:
Well the years was rollin' by (etc.)...



Mrs. Borg:
I'm calling THE POLICE!
I did it! They'll be here...shortly!

Officer Butzis:
This is the Police...

Mrs. Borg:
I'm not joking around anymore

Officer Butzis:
We have the garage surrounded
If you give yourself up
We will not harm you
Or hurt you neither

Mrs. Borg:
You'll see them

Officer Butzis:
This is the Police

Mrs. Borg:
There they are, they're coming!

Officer Butzis:
Give yourself up
We will not harm you

Mrs. Borg:
Listen to that mess, would you?

Officer Butzis:
This is the Police
Give yourself up
We have the garage surrounded

Mrs. Borg:
Everday this goes on around here!

Officer Butzis:
We will not harm you, or maim you
(SWAT Team 4, move in!)

Mrs. Borg:
He used cut my grass...
He was very nice boy...
That's DISGUSTING!!

Central Scrutinizer:
This is the CENTRAL SCRUTINIZER...
That was Joe's first confrontation with The Law.
Naturally, we were easy on him.
One of our friendly counselors gave him
A do-nut...and told him to
Stick closer to church-oriented social activities.

[rottunpunk]

thats funky.
wheres it from?

doesnt answer my question much though
:p

[roar]

thats funky.
wheres it from?

doesnt answer my question much though
:p

You just revealed your youthful ignorance, me dear. :old_man:

Get your frame to a decent jo-do-garage, and you will learn all the grips and stances you need. There is no such thing a A grip or A stance. Plenty of both, within the framework of seitei/koryu jodo. Or even, Ahem, in aiki-jo.

[rottunpunk]

yeah sorry its true i am naieve and dim (and cant spell)
i just figured if theres a way to hold a naginata and a way to hold a sword there must be a way to hold a broom handle too.

its not back to good old 'natural' is it?
:p

[rottunpunk]

Get your frame to a decent jo-do-garage, and you will learn all the grips and stances you need. .

oh yeah and my drum kits too small, i dont have a frame for it-its all free standingy-hehe
:p

[John Seavitt]

figured if theres a way to hold a naginata and a way to hold a sword there must be a way to hold a broom handle too.

You figure correctly. Regardless, we are back to "ask your sensei". You can remain confident, however, that you'll have plenty of chances to practice tenouchi.


John "or you should, at least"

[rottunpunk]

ok cheers.

dont think my aiki sensei would know as it was him who said iai cuts are pretty much the same as aiki cuts-not to put hm down as his normal aikido is spot on.

i shall ask john when i get back to darlo
:p

[satsumaruma]

Rottunpunk,

you can buy Jo in differing weights (but not lengths really) although I am not aware of any prescribed system. I used to do Aikido and from what I can recall of the Jo stuff we did I would concur with a previous post that noted it is usually done as an aid to show the effectiveness of Aikido. However, we do practice jodo Sanjuichi no kata - Aiki- jo - as well as Seitei Jo in Darlo. Can't say I've noticed a big difference.

Bit concerned that someone has told you that Iai cuts are all the same, MJER and MSR may well be very similar but Katori Shinto Ryu and Takenouchi Ryu are very different (KSR even have different kamae), not to mention all the stuff that we never get to see. I wonder if he /she was referring to the fact that there are only a limited number of strikes with a sword?

Lee

[rottunpunk]

nah, hes just not that good on weapons, didnt know what bunkai was-bless. dont think hes seen any iai either, he was talking about being flowy and insinuating that iai isnt-maybe hes just seen seite
its ok though, there are people in lancashire aikikai that know a bit more than he does, and he is very very good at the other stuff.

did a no-named jo 'four-way kata' on friday, it did seem a bit fake to me.

is it worth getting a book and learning jo by numbers for now till i find someone to show me proper? theres one with lots of picture in the bookshop.

im not serious about learning jo, just think it would be nice to do it a bit right.
:p

[satsumaruma]

When I get my arse in gear and get across as I keep promising, I'll bring a couple of Jo's with me.

If you're there, I'll show you some basics to practice. I am only Nidan mind.

Lee

[rottunpunk]

ok. cheers.
john wasnt about at christmas and i wasnt much so i didnt get any tips
:p

[John Tee]

God Lee, ur not still chattin punk up...full marks for tenacity...she knows ur married u know.

Behave with that Jo of yours!! ;) ;)

[satsumaruma]

God Lee, ur not still chattin punk up...full marks for tenacity...she knows ur married u know.

Behave with that Jo of yours!! ;) ;)

Yes,of course she knows I'm married 'cos I mentioned it. And I don't do chat ups of flirtys on the net - way too creeeepy.

But if our dialogue is upsetting you......or maybe the little green monster is raising its head in Johntyville....:ponder: :ponder:

[John Tee]

No, you are OK Lee my green head only arises with women I have seen in 'real' life not in cyber budo.And as you are married and,as you say, are not flirting, what could there to be jealous of? Apart from your Iai skills possibly.Hehehehehe. :grin: :grin: :grin:

[satsumaruma]

Well, you have potential, but you do need to turn up to practice to develop that potential.

Where were you last night?

[John Tee]

I was in the the kirstall Road, didnt get off set untill half six. But I am training with others in the area other than Thurdays as my work doesnt always allow a partcular night of the week. So any potential that is there is, is being both worked on privately and publically whenever my dis-orderly life allows and averaging about 5 hours travel time a week which is more than the average iaidoka i would imagine.

Glad your cold is better.

[satsumaruma]

Yeah, the flu is almost gone. You forget what the difference is bewteen flu and cold till you get flu again - no comparison.

I am back training with a vengeance now and arranging a club meal - if you're up for it send me a proper email - you have my details

Lee

[John Tee]

If it involves drinking can I sleep on your sofa! ;)

[satsumaruma]

Yep, but book early, Father Ted has booked a spot already and Captain Scarlet has also said he needs to doss somewhere.

[rottunpunk]

theres no point in either of you trying to fight over me. im frigid, and if i wasnt i wouldnt like you anyway.

anyways back to my stupid beginner ask sensei question. do i get this book so i can atleast grip the thing right and stand proper? i dont want to study jo, but i dont want bad habits either. aiki wont teach 'real' jo work, so do i shell out 10 squid on a book with a pink cover?
:p

[John Tee]

Dont flatter yourself darling. Stick to your sticks.:mad2:

[rottunpunk]

ooh touche squire.
:P

[satsumaruma]

AAAAAAAAAaaaaargh. RP you should know by now that you cannot learn any Martial art from a book (And definitely not one with a pink cover). As I said earlier, when I can be bovvered to come across, we'll ignore Tim and I'll show you some basic Jo. As I said earlier, nothing too wunnerful - I is only Nidan.

Lee

Ooh, and don't get your hopes up, I am already married. You've got to get in their early girlie 'cos all the good ones have gone

[rottunpunk]

if your the good ones im glad ive missed em all.hurhur

no offence, but if i get to darlo, id rather do iai than play with sticks.

and as ive mentioned before, grades arent necessarily an indication of ones skill

thanks for the offer though
:P

[satsumaruma]

No you're right,

by the feedback I was given after my Jodo grading I only just scraped through - timing good, spirit good, posture good but handling needs some work.
hey ho.. back to the drawing board.

You're not coming to Ian's dojo in Darlington are you? I thought you said you didn't like him?

[rottunpunk]

im from darlo originally. hence why i train under tim.
i started when we trained in gladstone street

personally i wouldnt be happy with a grade that id scraped. id rather fly through it, and be definately worth the grade if i had to have one
:p

[satsumaruma]

No, I wasn't too happy.

And of course I'd rather fly through it. But there are no senior Jodaka Sensei that I know of outside of London. No excuses , but we at Ian's are having to drag ourselves up with regards to Jo.
But still we try and not just give up before we even start.

Lee

[satsumaruma]

Oh, I thought of something else,

I think to only stay in ones comfort zone shows lack of spirit. To only go for grades when one has overtrained for them and can be certain of success is a bit too timid for me. I think one should be prepared to put oneself out there, run a few calculated risks, see what happens, dare to be there, live life - this is Bushido.....NOT waiting til one "flies through it".

You've got approximately 80 years worth of experiences to get in before you fall off the edge, get on with it. Gotta go, training calls.

[John Tee]

see what happens, dare to be there

Damn it..ok then.....blast!...Go on then put me down for Ikkyu and Shodan this year...phew...blimey...

heheheheheeheheh.

Jonty

[satsumaruma]

Sure, go for it.

Oh, one small thing, you have actually got to turn up and practice. A small point but quite a vital one under the circumstances:silly:

[John Tee]

A most excellant point Ian and very well made my friend :lick:

[John Tee]

Ian ..whose Ian? Lee! Getting my teachers mixed up! Ian proberly knows better than to get involved with the net. God can u imagine Bill on here...he'd be kicking everybodys butt.

[satsumaruma]

No, Ian is something of a technophobe, so no real chance of him on this Forum.

And Bill is a pussycat compared to how he used to be. Don't believe me? Ask Ben, Simon or Phil. Those poor sods really got the real Billy. Think RSM coupled with your very own school bully, magnify by a factor of 20 and it would be as the image of the furthest star compared to the brightness of our very own Sun.

Yep, he was a car salesman.

[John Tee]

Now you have got me worried! Mind you he didnt 'alf slap my hand hard when I was fumbling with my sageo during rei-ho once. Deep down he cares though and thats a good thing...and dont even think about working me over to get your own back tomorrow night because of these posts.... or I will arm wrestle you in the pub after.:chinese: :chinese:

[satsumaruma]

I am tempted to ask him to be his 'normal' self on occasion just so you can experience it. Frodo would sh*t himself.:evil: :evil:

[John Tee]

I thought you were supposed to be taking pictures last night?

[satsumaruma]

Never got the chance. Ian was also going to just practice along with Bill last night seeing as they both could have big gradings this year - but again he decided to teach; which is good for us but not great for him.