Shinai for Jodan

[The great I AM]

Can anyone recommend a good cheap (ish) shinai that is suitable for jodan? Particularly someone just starting jodan.

Not for me by the way.

Gibbo

[Paikea]

Can anyone recommend a good cheap (ish) shinai that is suitable for jodan? Particularly someone just starting jodan.

Not for me by the way.

GibboColor me ignorant, but what characteristics would a jodan player be looking for?

[shred_lord]

The X500 (http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/9365/jetshinai9ys.jpg) for the fastest men on earth! :D

[eric]

I would reccomend Eguchi's basic model shinai. It is strong but very evenly balanced. Also, I have found that it is slightly lighter than other shinai's. I think any jodan player should be able to use any shinai, but this one is a good starter. Hope this helps. Cheers!

[ShinKenshi]

Shouldn't a kendoka using jodan be able to use any standard shinai? I suppose one might want a lighter shinai to make it a little easier on the arms but I guess I thought that it wouldn't really matter (mind you I've never tried using jodan so I woudln't know).

[JSchmidt]

I've experiemented a fair bit and I always return to the bog-standard el-cheapo shinai. (ie the Wakaba/Tada-san ones).
I did have Tada-san try to hunt down some more suitable madake shinais and while they're supremly well balanced, they are still a tad too heavy for jodan. I still use them for jodan practice, but that's more to build strength and to show weaknesses in my cut, as any errors will be amplified.
What he should be getting is:
Super-long tsukagawa. 40+. I got a couple of ancient ones which have stretched a lot and the new ones from Tada-san are reasonably long too. Ask around for peoples ancient tsukagawas if necessary.
Small tsuba. No need for the supersized ones.

Jakob

[Neil Gendzwill]

I like a shinai with a large diameter tsuka that is very tip-light for jodan. Sorry, no specific models to recommend.

[Miravil]

This will be a helpful thread for me, I was told by one of our sensei that I should try practice using jodan once my right wrist recovers. I didn't know that practicing jodan will also means that I may choose different types of shinai.

Any guide lines that I should take to prepare myself for it? I'm currently doing more waza everyday with my left arm to strengthen it, but progress very slow.

[stuartwilson]

One that blocks tsuki, I suppose.

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

[Miravil]

One that blocks tsuki, I suppose.

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

Sorry, but am I the only one not able to understand what you meant?

[Jearom]

Sorry, but am I the only one not able to understand what you meant?
If you`re gonna try Jodan you`re gonna find out pretty soon.

[Miravil]

If you`re gonna try Jodan you`re gonna find out pretty soon.

I know that for a jodan kendoka, he/she will get tsuki at more than normal. Cause it is one of the way to score by the opponent before the jodan kendoka strikes. I just don't understand what he was directing at with his sentense. :)

[The great I AM]

I like a shinai with a large diameter tsuka that is very tip-light for jodan. Sorry, no specific models to recommend.

Thanks Neil and Jakob, I sort of suspected as much. I'll see what we can manage, but in the mean time, if anyone else has any (serious) ideas, then please do stick 'em here.

Oh and Paikea, try swinging a katatemen with a fat handled tip light shinai, then a big tip heavy chokuto, then you'll get it! Its for one of my students who basically cannot do chudan because of stuff wrong with his ankles when he was born. Since getting into armour he hasn't really practised for more than 15 minutes because of the pain in his left ankle, but because his right doesn't have the same problems we decided to change him over to jodan. Last night he did his first full lesson since March, so I think its the right choice! Just got to get him an easily swingable shinai.

Gibbo

[ratdeau]

we decided to change him over to jodan. Last night he did his first full lesson since March, so I think its the right choice! Just got to get him an easily swingable shinai.
Gibbo
Good idea.
Perhaps let him start with a 38 shinai. Like that he'll not over exercise his right arm and shoulder, then when he'll be used to jodan change to 39.

[JSchmidt]

Well, he got the Xmas break to build up strength:)..
Using a ladies shinai to initially do the kihon might not be a bad idea, but he needs to do suburi at home..and lots of it.
While I think you can happily get away with not doing suburi at home for chudan, the extra strength required for jodan makes it necessary to practice at home.

Jakob

[The great I AM]

Well, he got the Xmas break to build up strength:)..
Using a ladies shinai to initially do the kihon might not be a bad idea, but he needs to do suburi at home..and lots of it.
While I think you can happily get away with not doing suburi at home for chudan, the extra strength required for jodan makes it necessary to practice at home.

Jakob

He already does 100 katate suburi most days at home (so he told me....) so that'll do for a start.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I think the fat handle is the most important thing, depending of course on the size of his hands. If you're doing a lot of katate-suburi, your hand is going to cramp up if you have to maintain a grip on a tsuka that's too small. Koei has a new dobari model with especially large tsuka, I don't have the part number to hand. They come with either 26 mm or 28 mm diameter tsuka, the 28 is too big even for me and I have big hands (24 cm by the usual kote measurement). But the 26 is pretty sweet.

[The great I AM]

I think the fat handle is the most important thing, depending of course on the size of his hands. If you're doing a lot of katate-suburi, your hand is going to cramp up if you have to maintain a grip on a tsuka that's too small. Koei has a new dobari model with especially large tsuka, I don't have the part number to hand. They come with either 26 mm or 28 mm diameter tsuka, the 28 is too big even for me and I have big hands (24 cm by the usual kote measurement). But the 26 is pretty sweet.

Thanks Neil, I'll let him know.

[Lloromannic]

Thanks Neil and Jakob, I sort of suspected as much. I'll see what we can manage, but in the mean time, if anyone else has any (serious) ideas, then please do stick 'em here.

Oh and Paikea, try swinging a katatemen with a fat handled tip light shinai, then a big tip heavy chokuto, then you'll get it! Its for one of my students who basically cannot do chudan because of stuff wrong with his ankles when he was born. Since getting into armour he hasn't really practised for more than 15 minutes because of the pain in his left ankle, but because his right doesn't have the same problems we decided to change him over to jodan. Last night he did his first full lesson since March, so I think its the right choice! Just got to get him an easily swingable shinai.

Gibbo

The Bio Shinai line has pretty big tsuka. I like them and some models are dobari. The one I bought (http://www.chibabogu.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=154) is very light tipped, but also expensive. There are some cheaper ones (http://www.e-bogu.com/Shinai_s/20.htm).

[Paburo]

or a dobari 38 with double tsukagawa for comfier grip and necessary minimum weight. i built my senpai one of those :D

[Paikea]

Oh and Paikea, try swinging a katatemen with a fat handled tip light shinai, then a big tip heavy chokuto, then you'll get it! Its for one of my students who basically cannot do chudan because of stuff wrong with his ankles when he was born. Since getting into armour he hasn't really practised for more than 15 minutes because of the pain in his left ankle, but because his right doesn't have the same problems we decided to change him over to jodan. Last night he did his first full lesson since March, so I think its the right choice! Just got to get him an easily swingable shinai.
Ah, I understand - thanks.

[SkyPirate Frank]

Well, he got the Xmas break to build up strength:)..
Using a ladies shinai to initially do the kihon might not be a bad idea, but he needs to do suburi at home..and lots of it.
While I think you can happily get away with not doing suburi at home for chudan, the extra strength required for jodan makes it necessary to practice at home.

Jakob

Thanks Jakob, i have got one of those Thor's hammer type suburi bokken which i am going to try and do 100 a day with. I am ordering now light weight 39 shinai from ebogu.

Thanks for the advice, im sure i will be asking many questions about it in time to come.

Ant

[Lloromannic]

Thanks Jakob, i have got one of those Thor's hammer type suburi bokken which i am going to try and do 100 a day with. I am ordering now light weight 39 shinai from ebogu.

Thanks for the advice, im sure i will be asking many questions about it in time to come.

Ant

Could you tell us which model?

[Rohr]

The X500 (http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/9365/jetshinai9ys.jpg) for the fastest men on earth! :D
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH ^^!

[KhawMengLee]

or a dobari 38 with double tsukagawa for comfier grip and necessary minimum weight. i built my senpai one of those :D

Yeah, I use a dobari 38 with double tsukagawa for nito and a 39 with the same for jodan.

At the moment I'm doing about 500 men suburi and then 100 katate men and kote. The kote part is the toughest as I'm trying to build up the wrist strength.

[ginger_justice]

apologies for bringing this one back from the dead, but having found myself in a similar position to the original shinai-seeker (in jodan due to bad feet and crippled knees), i was wondering if anyone's found anything new on this in the past couple of years.

i spoke to the emaishop people at a taikai recently between rounds, and they thrust something that i suspect may have been one of their tondo koto jobs into my hand; the balance felt lovely, but i gather the grip can be a little slim, and i've got king-kong hands; my left's still in pain after last night's session, fnarr fnarr, and that's off a relatively meaty dobari. is a koto shinai the right thing for jodan? and if so, would the double tsukagawa trick be sufficient to beef up an emaishop tondo, if anyone has experience of them?

last of all, sorry for being thick, but how do you go about stringing up two tsukagawas? do you cut the leather loops off the 'inner' one and just use it as a sleeve, or actually pass the tsuru through both sets of loops? bit of a slow day, i'm afraid.

i'd considered one of those extra-wide things from e-bogu, but they look like they weigh a ton; i'm built like a challenger tank, but even so, a night in jodan with one of those looks like a short ride to a week sleeping on a board...

[Neil Gendzwill]

last of all, sorry for being thick, but how do you go about stringing up two tsukagawas?Cut off the rolled-over bit at the top along with the loops, and also cut out the bottom, so that you end up with a leather tube. This works best with old tsukagawa where the leather is well-compressed and smooth.

We got in a couple of the thick-handled bio shinai from e-bogu, they are super thick, even thicker than the Koei 28 mm ones.

[JSchmidt]

a
is a koto shinai the right thing for jodan?

No, a koto shinai is if you want to knacker your wrist as well as your feet/knees :).
Start with the standard cheap shinai or maybe a cheap dobari.
My girlfriend bought a few back from Korea that I really like and I'll try to find out which make it is when I go there in May. (They're Japanese madake).
I find the thickness of the grip is less important as you manipulate the shinai less in jodan. ( I keep changing my mind whether I prefer thick or thin tsuka).

Jakob

[ginger_justice]

thanks, neil. i was about to start tying ridiculously complex knots that'd undoubtedly've ended in twangy disaster. i'll give it a go and see what happens before delving into the financially depressing realms of transatlantic p&p.

jakob, ta; i think we may be talking at cross-purposes here, since i basically have no idea what i'm talking about, and am throwing vocabulary round like turds in a monkeyhouse. emaishop has the same shinai down as both koto and madake; i was under the impression they were the same thing. could you give me a quick rundown on the difference?

as for thickness of grip, my main worry's keeping hold of the damn thing, and applying something resembling decent one-handed tenouchi; my mitts're big enough that a thin shinai gets lost in my closed and kote'd fist, if you see what i mean. whilst i'd never consider actually hitting anyone with the bloody thing, my old hasegawa carbon has a huge grip, and if i could get a bamboo shinai with something similar, that'd be in the ballpark.

(that said, since my now-ex shinai recieved significant punishment from someone, for once not myself, yesterday, i fear mr. whippy may put in an apperance in certain university-based british dojos next week, so if you're reading this and based in oxford and fancy lending me something made of organic matter, it'll save your head and my elbow...)

[JSchmidt]

Madake is a type of Japanese bamboo, koto is usually a shinai where the balance is more evenly distributed and often has quite thick staves.
Koto shinais (for me anyway), puts a lot of strain on the wrist when you miss/get deflected, etc. You also need to put more effort in with your thumb in order to get them going when cutting, even if they feel fairly comfortable when in kamae.

[ginger_justice]

see what you mean; more of a danger of hyperextension and general elbow-buggery?

i've found my dobari's been producing some very flicky, tippy cuts, and for the sake of everyone else in the dojo, i'd like to see if this is down to my generally crap technique, or if a change of shinai'll sort it out; i'm wondering if having the weight further forwards'll encourage a little more 'throw' in the cut. i've not been finding getting the shinai moving a problem, so much as actually holding the bloody thing aloft for two hours.

i e-mailed yuki at emaishop yesterday and asked her what the shinai she recommended when we spoke was; she's just replied, and remembers it as the tondo, which she recommends for jodan above dobaris, though, of course, that may just be beacause they cost fifteen times as much. since i've just been paid, i'm going to get one of those in, as well as a bog-standard ten-quidder start-up shinai, and give a few things a try, while my memory of the deaded dobari remains fresh. all kitted-out with mutilated tsukagawas from my shinai graveyard...

i'll report back on the state of my elbow when it grows back after a week of koto hyperextension misery. thanks for the advice.

incidentally, jakob, is there much jodan floating round in london? i know there's a fair bit going on in UCL; i'm wondering if it'd be a good idea, and not too disruptive to various dojos, for me to make a bit of a pilgrimage at some point. i could tell you a little more about my slightly depressing, skill-free circumstances if it'd help...

[JSchmidt]

incidentally, jakob, is there much jodan floating round in london? i know there's a fair bit going on in UCL; i'm wondering if it'd be a good idea, and not too disruptive to various dojos, for me to make a bit of a pilgrimage at some point. i could tell you a little more about my slightly depressing, skill-free circumstances if it'd help...

Come to Wakaba and I can share what I know/have learned. With both the motodachi-geiko and ji-geiko session, it wont interrupt at all.

Jakob

[Andoru]

I visited a boguya in Taipei during the WKC and bought 2 super-thick tsuka shinai (AUD$15 each...bargain!). It's supposedly "AA" quality as opposed to AAA but it's really good for the price. Anyway, I measured the diameter of the tsuka (near the butt end) and it's about 31mm. Yup...31mm!! I'm no giant (quite the contrary), and my fingers are short, but I have meaty palms. For some reason, I really like holding a fat tsuka shinai.

Now that I've started doing jodan, that's what I'm using right now. Definitely aids with the one-hand tenouchi. Not sure how things would be different if I'd use a standard shinai but my guess would be that I'd have less grip (smaller surface area).

Bad thing about using a fat tsuka is that I had to spend quite alot of time drilling my tsubas. :/

[A Wadlow]

Yeah I have just got me a massive shinai. To give an idea of how large the tsuka is using a tsuba drill cannot get the tsuba wide enough, it just goes through to the other side. And having a tsuka covering nearly 1/3 of the shinai makes it look light a kids shinai. Does the job thought as I havn't dropped it yet! (which happens A LOT)

[garosilverfang]

I just started Jodan a few weeks ago. What I find though is that a balanced shinai with a bit of weight on it like a CF-39 (carbon fibre) helps a bit with the Katate men. I also tried a friend of mine's koban grip (oval grip) and I find that helps with the katate men cuts as well. I find it easier to hit straight with the blade when the centre of mass is more forward. I feel that it doesn't move side to side as much as opposed to a dobari. I find the dobari reacts more with subtle wrist movements which can throw off the straightness of the hit.

Hope it helps.

[b8amack]

I find I want a shinai that does react to subtle wrist movements.

[skilled]

I like the carbonized dobari from online kendo .

Very good for multiple katate mens : )