Kendo as a military discipline.

[Tato]

Hi!

The gradings thread has derived into another interesting discussion, is kendo a military discipline? or how much?

I must admit that I've mixed thoughts about this one, I have now a moderate idea of kendo history, that kendo have military roots.

And from my time in the army I can recognise on a regular keiko many of the elements of a military training (close order formation, sincronized moves, etc).

At the same time lot's of elements of kendo have gone far beyond of the usual army relations and purpouses, transforming it into budo. (I've to admit that I'm still having an strugle whit this concept, and I'm loosing ;) )

So, what's your opinion on this one? Should we consider kendo a kind of military training?

Rei

[titus]

Well, pre-WW2 kendo was used to fuel nationalism and generate support for Japan's ideas of imperialism.

However, most people agree that was a perversion of the original ideas. I'm sure most people would agree now that kendo is about discipline, self-reflection, etc. Kendo as a way of life, a lifestyle.

[Karaken]

One can apply just about anything to military discipline. Any martial art or anything to do with physical and mental discipline can be used. In fact, when I was army lieutenant, we did, soccer, gymnastics, yoga, Taekwondo, running, cross country, wrestling, judo, boxing etc.. And then there are some Mokso and weather resistance drills ( being naked in -30degree celcius ) etc for your spiritual training.
I guess shooting and Grenade throwing are closer to military training than high school curriculum but knowing hardly no army fights with saber these days, I can't say Kendo has any more military discipline value than, let's say, weight training and marathon.

Center is not military..

[Chusan]

Maybe the dojo (or its leader) choses whether the local Kendo has more or less military aspects. Our local club is definitely not organized in any military structures. Beginning with Rei not in front but in a circle, going over with avoiding any loud orders (no drills, no shouting -except of course Kiai-) and finally not telling others what they MUST do, but giving them advices how they may, if they want, advance in the art of Kendo.
Maybe it`s a matter of personal style.

[kendomushi]

Our club is on a military base. Half of our members are Japanese with no military background, and the other half are current or former military members. We do not call drill, shout, march - that sounds more like high school kendo here in my experience anyway. Military ranks are left at the dojo door. However, the military roots of kendo appeal to many of our members. Even the kendo kata teach us about war in a sense - in kata 1, uchitachi is killed off with the sword driven down through his body making him unable to continue resisting; in kata 2, uchitachi is dispatched with the strike to his primary hand, making him unable to continue resisting without very probably bleeding to death; and in kata 3, uchitachi is driven back, his will to resist broken. These are the 3 ways we win in war and harkens back to the military origins of kendo as well as displaying techniques, concepts and skill.
This being said, in our dojo we always say that we practice kendo as a budo, we train for it as a military art, and we use it as a sport.
By the way, we also use choose to form a circle for rei (at the end of practice) and discuss the day, upcoming events, etc. We however each go individually to rei in front of the sensei. So I guess styles and elements can be mixed however works for each dojo.

[sminki]

I think in its modern form, kendo is not really a direct military discipline. As titus pointed out, it was used to fuel nationalism and militarism in the Japan before and during WWII. I think what really has more remnance of those days is jukendo (the way of the bayonet).

[kendomushi]

Thats true, kendo was one of the ways used to fuel nationalism, an djukendo would be relavent to those days. But jukendo did not come about in any form until the modernization of the japanese military. The sword techniques from which kendo evolved predate this modernization by hundreds of years. And kendo was developed specifically to preserve the skills of the warrior swordsman (and to make money for out of work swordsmen). The period of nationalism and militarism leading up to WWII did indeed affect kendo, and may even be credited by some for the fact that kendo and other budo are still with us. But the roots of kendo are in military arts, in learning to win by taking the life of the enemy.
How we use it itday is, thankfully, more benign. And its evolution has allowed it to become a discipline that can be treated as a military discipline, or a sport, or a personal development system, or any combination of them. That simply points out the versatility and broad focus kendo has benefitted from over its development. But in its deepest roots, what we call kendo today was simply put one element of any given soldier learning how to kill another soldier.