Kendo and Tameshigiri

[Marine_Boy]

Last weekend I had the pleasure to help my sensei give a kenjutsu demo at a tameshigiri event hosted by students of Nakamura sensei. Also there was Fay Goodman sensei giving an iaido demo.

I thought it was great and the shinken cutting techniques was amazing!

Has anyone else watched tameshigiri and do you think kendo cutting techniques would prepare you to cut a wakimara in half?

Stan

[alexpollijr]

Definetely not. Kendo and Tameshi-giri have very little, if any, in common. After all, despite it's fancy name, it is a stick that we're wielding.

[nodachi]

I have to agree with that. I had the chance to do it and the feeling was all different.

[Chusan]

If something needs to be cut through, I usually take a saw, an axe or just a knife. No need for using an expensive sword for that job...

[Karaken]

For tameshigiri, you go all out. Your body, soul and everything else. Excatly the thing I wan to dicourage for Kendo students.

Center goes for both.

[Kendoka]

IMHO Tameshigiri and Kendo are part of Japanese Swordsmanship, along with Iaido etc.

There are similarities, but the differences are enough to define them as seperate arts.

[Lukas]

As you started the "Tameshigiri" thread,
I 'm courious your opinion about that:

Some time ago I found an article on web page:
http://www.kobudokai.com/r_tameshigiri.html
written by Raju Thakrar.

Its short so I quote it here:

***********************
Tameshigiri
by Raju Thakrar [aka Sakura-san]

"Tameshigiri" is the action of using a sword to cut objects. The term "tameshigiri" is composed of "tamesu", which in Japanese means "try out", and "giri", which means "cut".

Iaido is the only martial art where one practices with a sword in order to "polish" one's spirit and heart, or, more specifically, one's "kokoro".

Tameshigiri is forbidden by the Zen Nihon Iaido Renmei, the only specialist iaido organization in Japan.

There are several reasons for not doing tameshigiri.

Firstly, one has to consider that the Japanese sword is not a "tool", irrespective of whether the blade is live or not. In Japan, the Japanese sword has held a very important, and sometimes mystical, position in society. It is still one of the 3 treasures of the Imperial family, along with the mirror and orb. Thus, a sword is thought to have sacred properties. Taking this into consideration, the act of using a sword to cut something is akin to someone using a Catholic cross to bash a tree.

Furthermore, swordsmiths put their heart and soul into making Japanese swords great works of art. Therefore, using a sword to cut something is a most disrespectful act towards the swordsmith and the sword, which samurai thought of as their soul.

Etiquette towards the sword requires one to treat it with the greatest respect at all times. This is why one should never step over a sword, or touch the blade with one's hands.


This article was made public in November 2001. It has been circulated in the Canadian Iaido Association email list. At Sakura-san's request, I have modified spelling and grammar for our target audience; thus, any mistakes that occur are mine [JRP].
**************************

What is your opinion about that?

Personally I understand the reasons for treating sword with great respect.

But how are we going to learn cutting with sword without actually doing that? (while not at war :( )

Regards
Lukas

[Paburo]

oh lukas, they did test their swords back in the old days.

with corpses :D :D

the question that arises now is, why test it if you're never going to use the sword in that way? unless you are a psycho.
and sadly, there are some of them around(last week asian gang members in my city had a quarrel with katanas, one guy did 'kote' on another, severed his hand and almost killed him in the process...), but isn't this the last thing you'd like to teach them?

poor tatami mats! no war! :D

[mingshi]

The attachment is from the traditional Suemono Kiri --testcutting on criminals and dead bodies...

Be afraid...

[Marine_Boy]

Tameshigiri IMHO is one of many useful techniques in determining whether one's cutting action is perfect (or near to it...).

In the case of kesagiri, if the cut is not "straight", then the blade would get stuck in the mat (or corpse / opponent:) ).

Personally, I wouldn't use an ancient and expensive nihonto to practice tameshigiri, but there are sword makers out there who manufactures less expensive shinkens with the purpose of test cutting.

As an aside, the event I went to was held by students of Nakamura sensei and tameshigiri is one of the things they do and I can't think of other ways to see if you're cutting properly other that tameshigiri.

Stan

[Ares2907]

I remember reading a story ages ago about a yakuza and some other criminal in jail talking about their impending doom at the hands of the law.
The yakuza complained that his elaborate tattoos were about to be destroyed by some slash happy samurai. The other criminal explained to him that Yakuza were not used for test cutting - their bodies were 'defiled' by their tattoos and not 'pure' enough (iirc).
The yakuza at that point got pissed off and said something to the effect of 'I wish I'd known that before I swallowed all those rocks'.

[KhawMengLee]

yup, I think there was quite a lot of rules involved in selecting a corpse/body for tameshigiri. Tatooed bodies, Priests, people guilty of certain crimes and ETA(lowest social class) are not allowed to be used.

heh, yakuza...a japanese friend told me how ppl avoid the yakuza like the plague...some public baths will not allow you in and if they do ppl will not talk to you or scrub your back and try not to splash water on you...heh

[hamish]

Re. Mr. Thakrar's article:

I hadn't heard that the Zen Nihon Iaido Renmei had banned tameshigiri. I was a member a few years back, and we were doing tameshigiri demonstrations on a regular basis.

I would have to disagree that its the only specialist iaido organisation in Japan, too. There are a lot of small organisations.

Read Clive Sinclaire's article on the art sword vs. practical sword issue in Kendo World issue 3 for a bit of a reality check.

I think Mr. Thakrar is getting a bit carried away with the mystique of the sword. Swords are weapons, and can't really be equated to something like the Catholic cross (although you could argue that's been used as a weapon to kill more than swords alone ever could)

Its power as a symbol comes from the very fact that it is a weapon, not something made as a piece of art (although, in the process, it does become one) You give it respect because it can kill! Just as you respect a firearm.

Hamish

[Lukas]

That's reasonable and my opinion is similar to yours.

I was curious what you think. As I am quite a newbie in Kendo (2 years) and haven't study iaido I thought that maybe iaidoka treat tameshigiri cuts in a special way etc.
Anyway in my opinion adding too much misticism to budo makes some people think of budoka as a "sect member".
Or maybe "gaijins" (sp?) just don't understand it? :D

Thanks!

Lukas

[Chusan]

Me again:
Iaido - 23 years
Tameshigiri - 0 years (and happy)

BTW: going to sell my cutting-sword, don`t need it.

[Confound]

I agree with Hamish on this one (and in other news, the Royal Flying Pig Squadron flew in formation over London). Having never seen a tameshigiri demonstration in person, perhaps my lack of interest in it is purely caused by lack of exposure. That said, I do not see anything particularly bad about tameshigiri, as long as one practices it on inanimate objects designed for the purposes of cutting. We don't need to repeat the 'excursion' to Nanking...

As to imputing too much mysticism to the 'sword', we all know what I think about mysticism and spiritual things. A sword is a tool. It may be a beautifuly made or elegant tool, but one cannot change what it is. Obviously, I am not talking about those bloated paperweight Highlander reproduction swords, or fantasy trash swords, but nihonto, shinken and swords intended for tameshigiri, or iai.

Though the sword is a tool, its ues vary, and that is where tameshigiri and iai differ. One might even say that each individual who practices these arts differs as well. We all have our own reasons for studying, and the sword and the art are tools that assist us in achieving these ends.

I don't like romanticising in any of its forms, least of all when it strikes so close to home.

c

<edit: fixed a typo>

[Marine_Boy]

Confound, check this site out.

http://www.dojoofthefourwinds.com/video.html

Stan

[PhilMcLaughlin]

YMMV - study what intrests you

The original poster was asking about the differences. Tameshigiri is very intresting but youll find that what is considered 'normal' kendo cutting e.g. fumi komi men, leaves a shallow cut in the bales - its rare to cut through

Typically to cut through you need to use tusri ashi and the power of the cut comes from the hips and core muscles with focus as the back foot draws up. - very different to most shinai kendo cuts. To cut cleanly requires good technique as well

Im not bashing (;-) ) any aspect of kendo iaido or tameshigiri here - they all exercise different aspects of swordsmanship

BTW the page from the instruction manual looks like the original source for SouthPark ;-)

[stevemcgee99]

Before sharing opinions or discussion about tameshigiri, why not visit e-budo.com, or try looking into Int'l Battodo Fed. or Toyama and Nakamura Ryu websites.

At e-budo, some of the posters have experience with it.

[Confound]

Note: I didn't say anything bad about tameshigiri, I'm just not interested in it. I have read about, both in forums and in books, but have not seen it in person.

My concern was more with romanticising swords, which is abhorent. (Are there two r's in abhorent? Abhorrent?)

c

[Hyaku]

The advantages of Kendo are that of being able to practice up to proficient level without fear of injury. But in this pursuit the sword arts have become seperated into cutting, drawing, fenceing etc.

The sword arts generally seek to try and draw away from the militaristic tendancies and there are those that seek like Kendo to gain an amount of self discipline though this practice. Tying peoples hands behind their back is not included in the techniques.

Simply put tameshigiri is a facet of swordmanship. It not only tests the sword makers skill but that of the user. Cutting with a flat curved weapon is somewhat different to a round weapon of bamboo slats.

Its not simply a matter of picking up a weapon and using it like a carving knive. That would be like putting a shinai in the hands of a total beginer and saying, "He hit someone, so he's an experienced Kendoka". The practice of Battojutsu as a classical art with a history to it. Its not Genbudo.

I have seen ZNKR Hachidan bend swords through lack of skill. But likewise if you were to put a shinai on the hands of a batto practitioner who had never done Kendo he would not last long.

So if its possible and you have the time and a dojo nearby its a good idea to try and get some experience in cutting with real swords.

As a senior member of ZNIR I can vouch for the fact that here in Japan we do Tameshigiri demonstrations. I did one last year for the ZNIR at Dazaifu Shrine to commemorate 1100 years.

Hyaku

[Confound]

Hyaku,

What exactly is battojutsu? I've seen the word crop up quite a bt on e-budo forums, and off and on aruond here as well, but I still don't understand exactly what it is, and how it differs from the things I can define (iai, tameshigiri, koryu). My sensei was hard pressed to distinguish it as well, but he said this was because he has only ever done seitei iai.

c

[Hyaku]

Helo there

Basicaly, Its an older more classical form of drawing and cutting with shinken. Rather more practical than Iaido and based on waza rather than kata. No Jo, ha, kyu. No seiza either. Some styles like mine have Kiai. Emphasis on long low stances and power generated from a hip twisting action.

Also Enshin-ryoku. Power generated from large circular movements.

Hope this helps

[Confound]

It does. The Enshin-ryoku has cropped up as well, but often at that precise moment in the conversation where I'm starting to lose track of the Japanese. It's rather embarassing.

Are there are teachers of Battjutsu in Canada? It sounds like something I'd like to see first hand.

c

[Hyaku]

Im not sure. Toyama Ryu may have a branch there.

Hyaku

[megumisita]

I should ask my sensei about tamashigiri. I'm curious to see what he would think of it. I find it difficult to understand the seperating of iai, kendo, and I guess of tamashigiri. In my dojo, we are taught that iaido and kendo are inseperable. I will also ask about battojutsu....interesting.

[Confound]

Toyama ryu? Thanks. I'll look them up at Koryu.com. That website is dreadfully useful.

c

[stevemcgee99]

Try the Kenshinkan dojo, Power sensei. He's lurking at e-budo frequently.

[Confound]

That's exactly what was mentionned on the koryu website. I might pop over to e-budo and have a look. Thanks.

c