Kendo and Buddhism - clash?

[ekajati]

Just thinking "aloud" and inviting comments if any. I'm enjoying being a Kendo beginner enormously, but as a dedicated Buddhist (Tibetan tradition) I always have a slight doubt in the back of my mind as to how appropriate or not it is for me to learn what is in essence an aggressive killing art. I did some searches but could not find a thread that looks into this. I know that originally the sword form in Japan was heavily influenced by Zen Buddhism, and that people like Munenori argued that rather than simply killing the motivation is to save many by killing one. However there is just no getting away from the fact that a sword martial art is (or was) about the intention to kill. Having read a few books (the book of 5 rings and the life giving sword, apols if titles incorrect) the impression I get is that while Kendo uses concepts which are found in Zen Buddhism (empty mind etc) it's unlikely it could be in harmony with Buddhism since it is essentially aggressive. Or is it? The outcome definitely is (death to the loser) but I get the feeling that the "spirit" isn't. Now I would be very curious to know: Are there any Buddhists amongst you and if so how do you personally square up learning Kendo with your beliefs? Many thanks for any thoughts on the matter.

[JSchmidt]

The Concept of Kendo
The concept of Kendo is to discipline the human character through the application of the principles of the Katana (sword).


The Purpose of Practicing Kendo

The purpose of practicing Kendo is:
To mold the mind and body,
To cultivate a vigorous spirit,
And through correct and rigid training,
To strive for improvement in the art of Kendo,
To hold in esteem human courtesy and honor,
To associate with others with sincerity,
And to forever pursue the cultivation of oneself.
This will make one be able:
To love his/her country and society,
To contribute to the development of culture
And to promote peace and prosperity among all peoples.

(The Concept of Kendo was established by All Japan Kendo Federation in 1975.)

[Kiki]

Good question. I have been practicing Buddhism for over 25 years and began kendo almost six years ago. I have found kendo teaching - especially if you read those Hachi dan articles in KW's magazine - to be very "Buddhist" and therefore good lessons for life.

As far as the killing aspect of the days of old. (Hopefully none of us are practicing kendo to learn to kill?) I do think about it but I see what I do now as a challenge to improve self, gain inspiration (between the frustration) and help others. This is the focus of my Buddhist practice as well. In many ways I find them complimentary.

As far as I know, self defence is not against the spirit of Buddhism or most (all?) religions. That's why I think many samurai and other warriors who were/are devoute in faith could/can do their service knowing they might have to kill or be killed. In general, I personally don't see the samurai as essentially agressive but ready to fight at all cost when necessary. I am also basing my comments on what other Buddhists I know who are or were active Miltary during war times. Some of whom were on the front lines.

Since you are a Tibetan Buddhist and believe in reincarnation then you know we may have been many different types of people in the past. Sometimes kendo makes me reflect on perhaps what could have been some serious past bad causes like killing, etc. My Buddhist prayer and day-to-day actions (choices) can take on a deeper meaning when I remember the Law of Cause and Effect.

So I will think some more on your question. Also I will ask my friend who is a Sensei and Buddhist scholar what he thinks.

[gaarhaar]

My Sensei told me about a potential new student he had who was a comitted Christian, he eventually left after feeling that God did not want him to take up kendo. Fair play to him, it's not for everyone.

I work with children, still live with my Mum who is disabled and love animals, when people find out I also love kendo they say "oh I wouldn't imagine you doing anything like that I thought you were nice and quiet?" I'm finding the more kendo I do the more "nice and quiet" I get! So maybe there is something in there that relates to the above quote that my kendo practice evidences?

My tenegui reads: "Mind as still as the perfect reflection of calm water" I chose it because it best represents to me what kendo is about.

Just a few thoughts really.
Tim W.

[Anime12478]

Kendo was derived from arts whose purpose was to kill, but since that is an unrealistic goal in this day and age with weapons that can target blades of grass from thousands of miles away, the purpose of kendo is what is stated above.

[nodachi]

The purpose of kendo is to improve yourself as a person, which is not in conflict with Buddhism at all.

Also, does it matter what the overall purpose of kendo is to others? For example, even if it was about how to kill with a sword, if you were learning kendo for a different purpose, then you would not be learning how to kill, but working towards a different goal. Are you too attached to this idea that swordsmanship is about killing?

There is still some value in asking others their opinion to create a meaningful dialogue, but the meaning of an activity and its conflict with any belief system depend a great deal on how you interpret your reasoning for doing it.

[steelkendo]

Hi Ekajati,

Have you also thought why did you choosed kendo?

[steelkendo]

Personally I dont think they are in conflict at all. Some of the teachings in buddhism are very much applicable to kendo practice. In tantric path there were steps in Lamrim such as reliance upon a spiritual guide, preciousness of human life, death and impermanence, equalizing self and others and karma. These are tools which can be used to achieve development of mind (truth body) and body (astral body), exactly the same as in kendos goal. Even in the completion stage of tantra wind( prana or chi) are mentioned as being utilised and is central to ones existence. You yourself may have already been aware of this relationship when you decided to study kendo that you have not felt any resistance deep in yourself . Anyway this is just an opinion.

Thanks

[Hyaku]

If anything sword arts relate to Shinto not Buddhism with the sword as one of Japan's regalia. Buddhist philosophy was identifiable with samurai caste because of it's concept of coming to terms with death.

I have been working for a Buddhist sect for many years with Buddhist ceremonies, lectures and daily prayer. Buddhism tells us we are not supposed to kill anything. They constantly preach this to us.

It's all rather weird to me. Telling us to pick up a weapon and learn relates to Satsujinken. Kill the other guy before he kills you? When is somebody going to rewrite this principle of picking up the sword to learn that Kendo uses? Better still just scrap it. It totally defies the katsujinken ideal of learning the heart before we pick up weapons. In practice Kendo really does lean toward a katsujinken concept but is not described as such.

It is of course all theory and we live with it. I know large groups of priests that regularly meet at a Yakitoriya (barbecue shop). None of us are going to be able to follow such precepts to the letter including the priests and be the perfect Buddhist. We just have to listen to the sermons and come to deal with it ourselves as to how much we feel a need to participate to be a good person. It is inexorably mixed up into an acceptable package because Kendo is considered to be a sport-like tradition, Iaido a spiritual/educational means within individual practice. We have many Kendo teams and a large Iaido contingent within our educational establishments around the country, a commemoration stone erected to celebrate winning the All Japans in 1999 that was sanctified by a Buddhist ceremony.

But if you wanted to be a really good Buddhist? Don't eat meat and don't do Kendo by experimenting with theoretic concept of killing other people before they even attack you.

[don don]

Just thinking "aloud" and inviting comments if any. I'm enjoying being a Kendo beginner enormously, but as a dedicated Buddhist (Tibetan tradition) I always have a slight doubt in the back of my mind as to how appropriate or not it is for me to learn what is in essence an aggressive killing art. I did some searches but could not find a thread that looks into this. I know that originally the sword form in Japan was heavily influenced by Zen Buddhism, and that people like Munenori argued that rather than simply killing the motivation is to save many by killing one. However there is just no getting away from the fact that a sword martial art is (or was) about the intention to kill. Having read a few books (the book of 5 rings and the life giving sword, apols if titles incorrect) the impression I get is that while Kendo uses concepts which are found in Zen Buddhism (empty mind etc) it's unlikely it could be in harmony with Buddhism since it is essentially aggressive. Or is it? The outcome definitely is (death to the loser) but I get the feeling that the "spirit" isn't. Now I would be very curious to know: Are there any Buddhists amongst you and if so how do you personally square up learning Kendo with your beliefs? Many thanks for any thoughts on the matter.

I think your suspicions are correct. I feel publishers are to blame for encouraging confusion about Buddhism and M.A. When Takuan wrote to Munenori Yagyu he'd already been in political trouble (if I've got my dates correct) from which he'd been lucky to escape with his life. So when the fencing master to the Shogun writes to you asking for spiritual advice you need to be careful if you want to keep your head on your shoulders. Now, I'm not accusing Takuan of cowardice - there is ample evidence to the contrary - just pointing out the huge pressure any public figure was under in those days. I believe Takuan, were he speaking entirely freely, would have advised putting away the sword and taking Buddhist precepts. Probably not the answer Munenori Yagyu would have wanted.
I think the whole "Zen/Martial Arts" fascination is a largely cultural phenomenon and is responsible for a great deal of misunderstanding.
I personally don't have much of a problem doing Kendo as a Buddhist. (My priest does, she impies it's a distraction from Buddhist training - and who am I to argue...) Kendo is just something I do. Anything that makes you a better person is surely worthwhile?
Just my tuppence worth.
(By the way, I likes Hyaku's reply.)

[Hisham]

IMHO if there's any blame to be laid, it would be on the first shaolin fighting monks, although as far as i know they trained in MA to defend themselves. IMO the clash will depend on how far you wana take the practice of buddhism.
Hyaku and the others made some good points. I think Not-I would have an interesting view on this subject two.

[Alex_McGrady]

Just thinking "aloud" and inviting comments if any. I'm enjoying being a Kendo beginner enormously, but as a dedicated Buddhist (Tibetan tradition) I always have a slight doubt in the back of my mind as to how appropriate or not it is for me to learn what is in essence an aggressive killing art. I did some searches but could not find a thread that looks into this. I know that originally the sword form in Japan was heavily influenced by Zen Buddhism, and that people like Munenori argued that rather than simply killing the motivation is to save many by killing one. However there is just no getting away from the fact that a sword martial art is (or was) about the intention to kill. Having read a few books (the book of 5 rings and the life giving sword, apols if titles incorrect) the impression I get is that while Kendo uses concepts which are found in Zen Buddhism (empty mind etc) it's unlikely it could be in harmony with Buddhism since it is essentially aggressive. Or is it? The outcome definitely is (death to the loser) but I get the feeling that the "spirit" isn't. Now I would be very curious to know: Are there any Buddhists amongst you and if so how do you personally square up learning Kendo with your beliefs? Many thanks for any thoughts on the matter.

Kendo has bases in Shinto, including often having a small Shinto shrine nailed to to front of the dojo. These days the shrine has been done away with (in most dojos) and now we just "rei" to the front of the dojo rather than the Shrine...

Long story shortened, my very first kendo sensei in Japan (back in the day) was the town's Buddhist Priest. He lived in a house that was attached to his Temple and all. Anyway, he had absolutley no problem with Kendo in the ways your describe and the only thing that he changed was that he did not necessarily want the Shinto Shrine up in the front. You used the term referring to kendo as an "aggressive killing art"...well who have you killed lately.... Just kidding :-) You might be surprised to learn that no one really thinks like that about kendo. Are you perhaps referring to ken-jutsu? Anyway, the "DO" in kendo is the same in any Japanese art, whether it is sado, kyudo, judo, iaido, etc... it is the form of or way of.

No need to look for self-conflicts. Just relax and have fun!

Regards,

Alex

[ekajati]

Thank you all for such considered, detailed replies. I am still contemplating this question deeply! In my tradition, and especially with my teacher, we are strongly advised not to even tread on a small insect, and generally the whole ethos seems to be to steer you away from aggressive states of mind and towards compassionate ones. When I learn "men" I am learning, theoretically, how to split someone's head open so I do have to think about it carefully. However, by observing the people in my Dojo and the effect learning Kendo has on me so far, I don't pick up any aggression, quite the opposite.

A little like Gaarhaar, I find if anything I feel less short tempered and more patient (tho that might also be due to more regular meditation practice!)

Kiki, I'd love to hear what your sensei/Buddhist scholar friend has to say. Some people touched on the importance of motivation - v good, I always forget that's so important! Most of my motivation is fine (always done some sort of eastern martial art, wanted excercise, wanted a hobby etc) but if I want to really nitpick, from the Buddhist angle, some of it is not so fine (vague fascination with swords, liking idea of people being impressed etc). However my internal "jury" so far says that Kendo seems to develop self-confidence, one-pointed mind, ultimately empty mind (so I'm told - fudoshin, mushin etc) and care/respect for others (dojo etiquette with others and generally) - so I don't think I'll be stopping any time soon. Thanks again all, I continue to read any more musings on this matter with great interest.

[Wes Nazo]

Thanks to everyone who submitted their input. This conversation has been really interesting, as I've recently enrolled in a 'world religions' class for college. I'm choosing Buddhism to research for my group project, as I currently know very little about it.

[John Seavitt]

I know that originally the sword form in Japan was heavily influenced by Zen Buddhism ...

This is not the case. You might read Karl Friday's <http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0402&L=iaido-l&P=R13118&D=0&I=-3> (and others: <www.texasarchery.org/Documents/myth/MythZenArchery.pdf>) remarks on this subject. Briefly, Zen historically has had very little relationship with any of the warrior traditions (most medieval Japanese men-at-arms followed Pure Land Buddhism, and some of the other major sects). Zen has some pretty odd mysticism stuff mostly suited to monks, not folks with a job on the battlefield. Zen is further poorly understood in many Western venues today, due to some widespread and vast oversimplifications of its central tenets.

John

[PatientDaruma]

Pure Land Buddhism is Zen, essentially. Most of the Ch'an (Zen) traditions that survived in China became Pure Land. The Zen that came to Japan was primarily transmitted by the Soto and Renzai sects, which still survive today.
All that aside, the samurai held to Buddhism because it allowed them a handle to understand the transient nature of reality, a fact they faced daily as warriors.
All mysticism and dogma aside, Buddhism is less a pacifist belief than a compassionate belief. And if you will note, the strikes we learn in Kendo and iaido are not maiming or crippling strikes, but killing blows, often quickly and cleanly killing blows. Campassion in all things, even in death. A warrior accepts the weight of karma in taking a life, but strives to do so as compassionately as possible.
In the end, the simple truth has already been stated here before. We aren't learning to kill with swords, we are learning kendo; a budo practice devoted to the betterment of self, mind and body, through the application of the principles of the sword. We practice to better ourselves, and by bettering ourselves, to better interact with everyone else. This practice is essential Buddhism.
Conflict arises only where we sow the seeds.

[JSchmidt]

And if you will note, the strikes we learn in Kendo and iaido are not maiming or crippling strikes, but killing blows, often quickly and cleanly killing blows.

Cutting the right hand off is a killing blow??

Jakob

[PatientDaruma]

No, but it is a lead in for a killing strike. If you study iaido as well as kendo, you know that any number of techniques begin with a cutting at the sword wrist, both for the purpose of creating a suki and for the more practical reason of disabling the opponent to allow for a definitive strike to immediately follow. Much of the chain cutting we learn in kendo is derived from this same thought.
My point was that japanese sword arts do tend to kill more cleanly than Western styles. Of course its not perfect, the only completely compassionate swordplay is to leave it sheathed.

[JSchmidt]

No, in kendo, kote is ippon. To suggest that it's only the 'lead in', is conjecture. And don't compare it to iaido, which is a different kettle of fish entirely.

Jakob

[bullet08]

it seems religion really cramps the life style of some people..

drink more beer and do more kendo.. and go for confession on sunday.. oops.. wrong religion.

pete

[ekajati]

it seems religion really cramps the life style of some people..

drink more beer and do more kendo.. and go for confession on sunday.. oops.. wrong religion.

pete

Mmmm... hate beer and yes wrong religion.... makes me think of another possible thread title : "Kendo: Religion or sport?" I bet you "worship" regularly at your dojo, and as far as possible obey the every word of your sensei? And study whatever there is to read on Kendo/Budo? And practice regularly? And feel strongly about it? How is this significantly different from a "religion" ;) ? Does it cramp your lifestyle? No, Buddhism doesn't cramp mine either. And I'm actually not interested in religion at all, but very interested in spirituality. So I'm also with the greatest of respect to the scholars here not enormously interested whether it was pureland or zen that influenced the Japanese sword art, but more generally in the fact that it was some form of Buddhist spirituality. But I did have a giggle at your post so thanks ;) !

[mingshi]

No, but it is a lead in for a killing strike. If you study iaido as well as kendo, you know that any number of techniques begin with a cutting at the sword wrist, both for the purpose of creating a suki and for the more practical reason of disabling the opponent to allow for a definitive strike to immediately follow...
Adding to what Jakob said, you seem to forget there can be more than one opponent at a time in one iaido kata...

[don don]

it seems religion really cramps the life style of some people..

drink more beer and do more kendo.. and go for confession on sunday.. oops.. wrong religion.

pete

Ha! Nice comment Pete...:happy:
It seems that every time we open our mouths on religion, we cause confusion. (Except Pete, that is...)

Anyway, at the risk of de railing this thread, what is it that makes a person turn to religion?

[bullet08]

Anyway, at the risk of de railing this thread, what is it that makes a person turn to religion?

i would say lack of good beer.. then again.. my philosophy professor in college puts it divine comfort. something to believe in.. something to hold onto when things get tough, or when things get really nice? either way i find good company of my friends, and beer in large quantity, and few hours of good keiko fixes most of my problems.

pete

[Fonsz]

I would like to put this thread back on the rails with Wise Words from someone who has seen how low mankind can go.

We need to train in kendo rigorously, a sure path to world peace.

If that isn't Buddhism or Shinto then I don't know what is.

[DarQik]

Anyway, at the risk of de railing this thread, what is it that makes a person turn to religion?Too late. Science is about how things work. But listen to any kid when you tell him to go to bed and it's all about--WHY? It's that why that drives philosphy and religion (ignoring the powermongering aspects). This is a flames/lounge discussion though.
possible thread title : "Kendo: Religion or sport?" I bet you "worship" regularly at your dojo, and as far as possible obey the every word of your sensei? And study whatever there is to read on Kendo/Budo? And practice regularly? And feel strongly about it? How is this significantly different from a "religion" ;) ? Does it cramp your lifestyle? Who let the fundamentalist wacko in here? ;) Next I'll be told I'm worshipping Dell as I sit in front of the graven image on my monitor, keyboard, mouse, etc. IMO, the real danger is baseless zealotry. I've seen a lot of that, and it's results are anything but pretty. A biblical definition of religion: "To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world" (* I would define "unspotted from the world" as "not influenced by the beliefs and views not contained in the bible." Not perfect, but the interpretation of any such things are long threads to themselves where I'm from.) Thus religion is helping poor/orphans/widows and following the teachings of the religion.

Religion and philosphy can be seen to spring from the need to cope with the many "why's" of life: Why am I here? Why is life so painful? Why did my pet frog have to die? To many religion and philosphy trancend simple answers and become a way a life, they are the why. In such cases it's not a matter of religion cramping your lifestyle--the religion is your lifestyle. It's mostly a matter of other people not understanding why you can choose to live that way, when they cannot imagine it.

I don't see the modern kendo as any threat to Buddhism, Christianity, or most any religion, as it is generally considered a sport or personal development regime. For most, the goals in kendo are not to learn to cut people or even particularly for self-defense, but rather to self-develop and to have fun. It's certainly a lot less hostile than the average U10-U13 soccer league. Two seasons and the soccer field, and I almost couldn't imagine any lunatic MA instructor being much worse for my kids' development.

[hamish]

The Zen/Martial Arts link is very much overplayed, with a very interesting article by Bodiford in 'Budo Perspectives' laying out a lot of the causes. Recently, the whole mystery of the orient stuff seems to have influenced that, and there also seems to be a lot of confusion between things being explained using Buddhist terminology, and actually being influenced by Buddhism, which are very different things. You can explain golf using Buddhist terminology, but it doesn't mean Saint Andrew was a Buddhist at all!

The Japanese nationalist, DT Suzuki's work has also had an undue influence on the western way of thinking in this area as well.

[hayakawa]

Been reading the book "Kendo Kata: Essence and Application" by Inoue Yoshihiko - translated by Alex Bennett, Ph.D.

There is mention made of Budhist influence in budo and the book discusses how Kendo kata ippon-me to sanbon-me demonstrate Buddhist philosophy.

You can probably purchase the book through this site, somewhere, although to be honest, I haven't looked.

Best Regards,

[ekajati]

Very interesting, Hamish and Hayakawa. I'll look for those references. But even if the sword arts were and are not particularly "Buddhist" in themselves, and even though Shinto may be a strong factor (I don't know enough to agree or not), it seems undeniable that the sword arts in Japan were taken up by numerous Buddhists - whether Pureland or Zen. Munenori touched on various arguments to justify this (kill one, save many), but I originally brought up the question in the context of - was his argument valid in the context of Buddhist belief?

[hamish]

There's a bit of material out there that suggests a lot of warriors turned to religion after they had survived the horrors of close quarters battle, in an attempt to deal with what they had seen and done, so this would no doubt have an effect on the development of Buddhist attitudes to the use of the sword. Many sects also had their own standing armies at times as well, so how does that fit in with Buddhist ideals??

The kill-one-to-save-many argument always seemed a bit too subjective to me: (haven't we heard some excuse like that recently...) for whose good? Who is the arbiter of good and evil? How many do you have to kill before it impinges on the Buddhist ideal of not harming any living being?

Buddhism and Shintoism were complicit in justifying a lot of things around the Second World War, and Japan's imperialism in Asia. This was no doubt the same in earlier ages, so some of the earlier writings must also be taken with a grain of salt, I think. Nothing new here, the clergy have always been under the influence of those in power, there are countless examples of this kind of thing in Christianity too of course, both recently and stretching back for centuries. Bear in mind, too, that many people writing these thoughts were only laymen themselves, so how far they actually reflect Buddhist attitudes at the time is anyone's guess!

[Hyaku]

I just went to my Kendo Dojo mostly destroyed by fire. Half the roof fallen in on that highly polished floor The dazzling bit was up at sensei's end. Buffed to a shine by the thousands upon thousands of times that students have gone up that end to get their medicine and done kakari geiko and kiri kaeshi up and down until they could no longer lift their arms.

There was nothing left of the boards showing the names of the well knowns that had moved on. No photogaphs of our departed sensei. The shrine lies on it's back on top of the roof tiles. I tried to salvage something to keep as a memory. But even the sake cup used to offer to the gods is black and uncleanable. Sensei's subirito bokuto is is one piece but the tsuka is black and half burned away.

On a sad note bringing back all those memories of 24 years ago. Of us biking there at 5:30 in the morning, At times so cold I had to break the stiffness and frost out of my keikogi to put it on. At times so hot around 40c that it was so wet and heavy it felt like I had hauled it out the washer. I held back the tears and put my hands in Shinto prayer clapped them together to summon the Gods and said goodbye.

[Ipp-on Ipp-off]

I just went to my Kendo Dojo mostly destroyed by fire.

Sorry to hear that. I hope you will soon be able create a new start.

[ekajati]

Many sects also had their own standing armies at times as well, so how does that fit in with Buddhist ideals??

The kill-one-to-save-many argument always seemed a bit too subjective to me: (haven't we heard some excuse like that recently...) for whose good? Who is the arbiter of good and evil? How many do you have to kill before it impinges on the Buddhist ideal of not harming any living being?

Buddhism and Shintoism were complicit in justifying a lot of things around the Second World War, and Japan's imperialism in Asia. Nothing new here, the clergy have always been under the influence of those in power, there are countless examples of this kind of thing in Christianity too of course, both recently and stretching back for centuries.

Just had my long reply killed by the software... so here's a much shorter one. I agree, much hypocrisy down the ages everywhere, including Tibet with armed monks in inter-monastery warfare. I think at the end of the day the key argument has to be motivation. If a medieval Japanese Buddhist samurai decided the sword was the cleanest most compassionate way to defend himself when necessary (with none of the infrastructure that today gives us the leisure to choose a high moral stance from a much safer distance...) then he probably was not that much in conflict with his beliefs. If he was a power-mad warrior bent on getting the populace to submit, however, it's another ballgame. It's the mind that makes the difference, not the tools.

[ekajati]

I just went to my Kendo Dojo mostly destroyed by fire

Extremely sorry to hear it, Hyaku. It really comes through how much you loved the place and how many fond memories you hold. I sincerely hope the new Dojo builds up similar experiences very soon. How about keeping the bokuto and cup, however burnt, and put them in a small display in the new Dojo in honour of the old one?

[crabbi]

...Anyway, at the risk of de railing this thread, what is it that makes a person turn to religion?
Aha don don San....

This borders on the conversation that we were having at your place after Hatsugeiko... so please forgive this stream of consciousness ramble...!

For us to be able to create sense from chaos, we need a framework within which we can operate... Historically this has been given to most of us by Shamans and Priests who could interpret our observations of the World and fit them within a consistent model (...because God said so... because the spirits wanted it to happen... etc...).

As well as the chaos of life we also have to deal with the constant shadow of our own mortality... Religion helps by telling us that we don't have to worry (as long as we follow the rules) everything will be okay (...because God said so... or the Magic Pixie wants it that way...).

But even if we turn our backs on religion or pseudo-religious beliefs (New Gae etc...) and opt for the hyper-rational and logical approach, we are still imposing a framework / belief system... it's just the way we are...

People who have abnormal belief systems are commonly outlawed or rejected by society ( or at the very least mocked). People who don't appear to have a consistent worldview get treated with chemicals, electro-shock, isolation and counselling until they conform...

Going back to your question... I don't think that we necessarily 'turn' to a religion unless we have found it fruitless to develop our own framwork... it is so much easier to adopt an existing worldview that is accepted by others and promoted by charismatic leaders.

Cheers

[ZealUK]

Going back to your question... I don't think that we necessarily 'turn' to a religion unless we have found it fruitless to develop our own framwork... it is so much easier to adopt an existing worldview that is accepted by others and promoted by charismatic leaders.
Cheers

Then again, maybe the average person lacks the capability to form their own world view. You say it may be easier to adopt a framework which has been justified by others, but surely to adopt the doctrine of others and follow that in regard to your own life is much more difficult than to create your own 'personalised' world view which only caters for your own desires.

Perhaps religions rely on the fact that certain gifted individuals have outlined a stucture for life that is applicable to many people, thus forming a moral basis by which we can lead our lives.

I would think that this is particularly true with regard to Zen. We might rely on the teachings of those that have realised the fundemental nature of our existence to point us in the right direction, however the words themselves are utterly meaningless. Only through dilligent pracitce can people reach a level of understanding great enough to make any real difference.

This being said, I think that any path which leaves people with a sense of humility and acceptance of others is one which is beneficial to the world at large.

[bobdonny]

Hey there ekajati,

I'm new but sometimes its good to hear such an opinion.

How bout thinking about it differently...

Like only by truely learning something is the best way of making sure to avoid it!

You know learn how to fight, so you wont kinda thing.

Also you shinai and sensei etc are you inputs, learning kendo is the transformation process, but you decide the output!

For me the Output is self control and acceptance.
I dont think about slicing someones head open...simply because you dont (unless you are physco ;) )....and thinking about that is only a distraction from what it really is!

[don don]

[quote=Hamish]There's a bit of material out there that suggests a lot of warriors turned to religion after they had survived the horrors of close quarters battle, in an attempt to deal with what they had seen and done, so this would no doubt have an effect on the development of Buddhist attitudes to the use of the sword. Many sects also had their own standing armies at times as well, so how does that fit in with Buddhist ideals??

The kill-one-to-save-many argument always seemed a bit too subjective to me: (haven't we heard some excuse like that recently...) for whose good?


I agree strongly with Hamish's comments. He's answered my question about what makes a person religious very well I think. It seems to me it's a way of dealing with things that people can't normally deal with, the heart of a heartless world and all that. I don't think it comes from philosophising. It's something a person does when they don't want to go on in the "old way." When you ask someone why they became a Buddhist you often get an answer that makes you a bit embarrassed to have asked in the first place - an answer that may involve a terminal illness, a series of bereavements etc. Not a "Wow..!" answer that tells you something really cosmic.
As for old Buddhist sects with standing armies, I believe many temples in medieval Japan would hire people who were in effect mercenaries and simply ordain them to legitimise things. The Catholic church has a similar history. You're right, it's hypocrasy and it won't do.
"Sometimes Japaese culture gets in the way of Buddhism" (Rev. Keido Chisan Koho Zenji.) This is something I try to keep in mind. It's no idle comment. (This gentleman was a Buddhist teacher to the Showa emperor.)
As for the "Kill one to save one " stuff, I share H's scepticism. "Put away the sword and take the precepts" is what a genuine person of religion would say.
I haven't read the article you mentioned, Hamish. It seems to provide an angle that's badly needed in western countries.

[samurai999]

Perhaps this a question that is suited for Matsuda sensei's ears? Just a suggestion.

Tim

[Sepiraph]

Just thinking "aloud" and inviting comments if any. I'm enjoying being a Kendo beginner enormously, but as a dedicated Buddhist (Tibetan tradition) I always have a slight doubt in the back of my mind as to how appropriate or not it is for me to learn what is in essence an aggressive killing art. I did some searches but could not find a thread that looks into this. I know that originally the sword form in Japan was heavily influenced by Zen Buddhism, and that people like Munenori argued that rather than simply killing the motivation is to save many by killing one. However there is just no getting away from the fact that a sword martial art is (or was) about the intention to kill. Having read a few books (the book of 5 rings and the life giving sword, apols if titles incorrect) the impression I get is that while Kendo uses concepts which are found in Zen Buddhism (empty mind etc) it's unlikely it could be in harmony with Buddhism since it is essentially aggressive. Or is it? The outcome definitely is (death to the loser) but I get the feeling that the "spirit" isn't. Now I would be very curious to know: Are there any Buddhists amongst you and if so how do you personally square up learning Kendo with your beliefs? Many thanks for any thoughts on the matter.

I highly doubt you need to worry about Kendo as a killing art because it's extremely unlikely that you'd ever kill someone in this age with a sword. Therefore, you can focus your perspective to see Kendo as a self-improvement.

[ekajati]

Perhaps this a question that is suited for Matsuda sensei's ears? Just a suggestion.

Tim

Who he? A Venerable Wise Buddhist Kendoka? Please entice him/her hither if so...;)

[Paikea]

Who he? A Venerable Wise Buddhist Kendoka? Please entice him/her hither if so...;)Matsuda-sensei is Renshi, 6-dan with a kendo resume that is, well, read for yourself: http://mywebpage.netscape.com/sjkendo/matsuda.html

He also is the head priest of the San Jose Nichiren Buddhist Temple.

[samurai999]

yes.. a very impressive kendo resume to say the least.

Tim

[metallica58266]

I am buddhist also (zen) and i completely see what u mean about its a killing art, but i also practice the samurai code of bushido and i will not hesitate to kill if i am threatened and only if killing is the only option, but aside from that all martial arts are completely what it says in the name, they are an art, like drawing or music its all art. any martial art is used to enlighten, discipline and express your self. so really all martial arts will help u in buddhism, cause all buddhist goals are the find nirvana and try to enlighten others. martial arts teaches u that discipline, self control, and enlightenment to help u achieve nirvana and become a buddha.

[John Tee]

I have been practicing Buddhism for over 25 years and began kendo almost six years ago.

Since you are a Tibetan Buddhist and believe in reincarnation .

Buddhist dont belive in reincarnation..buddhists believe in rebirth...there is a big difference.

[John Tee]

I have been working for a Buddhist sect for many years with Buddhist ceremonies, lectures and daily prayer. Buddhism tells us we are not supposed to kill anything. They constantly preach this to us.

.


Hello again,

Hi Hyaku...what buddist sect do you refer to?..I'm a practising Zen Buddhist of the Soto tradition. I am just interested not being sectarian..we had enuf of that in Northern Ireland.

[John Tee]

(My priest does, she impies it's a distraction from Buddhist training - and who am I to argue...))


Try letting ur priest reading Zen and the Martial Arts by Taisen Deshimaru..probably the most influential Zen master in Europe. Gassho..

[John Tee]

IMHO if there's any blame to be laid, it would be on the first shaolin fighting monks, .


You dont have to go to China, during the pre edo peried on Japan there were countless warrier Zen monks slaying the crap out of people.

[John Tee]

There's a bit of material out there that suggests a lot of warriors turned to religion after they had survived the horrors of close quarters battle, in an attempt to deal with what they had seen and done, so this would no doubt have an effect on the development of Buddhist attitudes to the use of the sword. Many sects also had their own standing armies at times as well, so how does that fit in with Buddhist ideals??

The kill-one-to-save-many argument always seemed a bit too subjective to me: (haven't we heard some excuse like that recently...) for whose good? Who is the arbiter of good and evil? How many do you have to kill before it impinges on the Buddhist ideal of not harming any living being?

Buddhism and Shintoism were complicit in justifying a lot of things around the Second World War, and Japan's imperialism in Asia. This was no doubt the same in earlier ages, so some of the earlier writings must also be taken with a grain of salt, I think. Nothing new here, the clergy have always been under the influence of those in power, there are countless examples of this kind of thing in Christianity too of course, both recently and stretching back for centuries. Bear in mind, too, that many people writing these thoughts were only laymen themselves, so how far they actually reflect Buddhist attitudes at the time is anyone's guess!

Hamish talking good sense.... Im listening too. Wise words Hamish cheers!:cool2: :cool2:

[John Tee]

I just went to my Kendo Dojo mostly destroyed by fire. Half the roof fallen in on that highly polished floor The dazzling bit was up at sensei's end. Buffed to a shine by the thousands upon thousands of times that students have gone up that end to get their medicine and done kakari geiko and kiri kaeshi up and down until they could no longer lift their arms.

There was nothing left of the boards showing the names of the well knowns that had moved on. No photogaphs of our departed sensei. The shrine lies on it's back on top of the roof tiles. I tried to salvage something to keep as a memory. But even the sake cup used to offer to the gods is black and uncleanable. Sensei's subirito bokuto is is one piece but the tsuka is black and half burned away.

On a sad note bringing back all those memories of 24 years ago. Of us biking there at 5:30 in the morning, At times so cold I had to break the stiffness and frost out of my keikogi to put it on. At times so hot around 40c that it was so wet and heavy it felt like I had hauled it out the washer. I held back the tears and put my hands in Shinto prayer clapped them together to summon the Gods and said goodbye.

I was moved by that contribution..thankyou Hyaku sensei...and it is a poignent remindr of the impermanence of phenomenon. Not even dojos are changeless.:ermm:

[Hisham]

You dont have to go to China, during the pre edo peried on Japan there were countless warrier Zen monks slaying the crap out of people.
I mentioned the shaolin temple because it is there where zen or chan budhism started as far as i know.

[Hyaku]

Hello again,

Hi Hyaku...what buddist sect do you refer to?..I'm a practising Zen Buddhist of the Soto tradition. I am just interested not being sectarian..we had enuf of that in Northern Ireland.

Jodo, Jodo Shinshu, Nichiren etc This is what they generally preach to the masses. No particular sect. All the people around me just look at it as what makes a good buddhist. Of course it's all talk. I know one sect that regularly meet at the local yakinikuya (barbecue shop).

I work for Jodo Shinshu.

By the way Deshimaru Roshi's nephew has a clinic a few minutes up the road from my house.

[Kiki]

Buddhist dont belive in reincarnation..buddhists believe in rebirth...there is a big difference.

Yes. Excuse my misstep in terminology

[John Tee]

I mentioned the shaolin temple because it is there where zen or chan budhism started as far as i know.

Totally right! Blame Bodhidharma...:) :)

[John Tee]

Jodo, Jodo Shinshu, Nichiren etc This is what they generally preach to the masses. No particular sect. All the people around me just look at it as what makes a good buddhist. Of course it's all talk. I know one sect that regularly meet at the local yakinikuya (barbecue shop).

I work for Jodo Shinshu.

By the way Deshimaru Roshi's nephew has a clinic a few minutes up the road from my house.


Hi Hyaku,

I only have a passing understanding or Purelands Buddhism as taught by Jodo Shinshu. I have some friends over here who are part of Nicheren Shoshu which seems to be popular also amongst celebrities!

Im am fascinated by you living close by Deshimaru roshi's nephew. Gosh, if I didnt have my present ties to UK I would be living down the road in a flash.

And purely 'off topic' do you know how I can get my hands on quality Niten bokken this side of the world? You ask any such questions in this hemispehre and you hear that wonderful buddhist mantra repeated over and over..."Nine Circles".

In gassho


Jonty

[ben]

Similar discussion at e-budo here --> http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29123&page=1&pp=15

b

[joegor786]

I was told by a friend who is practising Buddhism - no matter what religion we believe in, a tool is needed to get us to the ultimate goal of that religion. Kendo can be ultilised as a tool to achieve that goal. It is not the striking and hitting, but the thoughts and the chain of actions that are involving. Through these series of "mental movements", we learn how to purify the thought and put it in action to get a "good" result.

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

I am buddhist also (zen) and i completely see what u mean about its a killing art, but i also practice the samurai code of bushido and i will not hesitate to kill if i am threatened and only if killing is the only option, but aside from that all martial arts are completely what it says in the name, they are an art, like drawing or music its all art. any martial art is used to enlighten, discipline and express your self. so really all martial arts will help u in buddhism, cause all buddhist goals are the find nirvana and try to enlighten others. martial arts teaches u that discipline, self control, and enlightenment to help u achieve nirvana and become a buddha.



well I personaly find the notion of a Buddhist "not hesitating to kill smoeone if threatened and killing is the only option" quite worrying, i am a Therevadin Buddhist and i can see clearly that the Kendo-Buddhist connection seems to have been construed on a very odd basis. Zen Buddhism itself , let alone The Bushido ethic , a distortion of original Buddhism with many Japanese cultural infiltrations , and its connection to kendo seems to be flawed. to try and use Buddhist principles Of "self discipline" and "self mastery" and "perfection" and apply them to the wielding of a sharp killing instrument are merely taking these Buddhist ideals wildly out of context. Just as Christians took the ideal of "spreading the faith" and used it in the context of the crusades or the conquest of the Incas and basically tried to connect it with what was plainly speaking mass slaughter.

The Buddhist ideals of self mastery, discipline and perfection are to be used in the context of morality which is summed up by the 8foldpath and also in the realm of detatchment from sensory desires (four noble truths), and as ATTATCHMENT is the cause of suffering and SENSE DESIRE is the cause of attatchment , then in the context of Kendo, any sort of attatchment to a sport or a Budo "code" or a warrior like way of life or any spirit of competition or ambition in the field of kendo to a strict Buddhist would be classified as wrong. (and im speaking in absolute terms, not "bending the rules of Buddhism" which is invariably what every buddhist will do including myself)

[John Tee]

']well I personaly find the notion of a Buddhist "not hesitating to kill smoeone if threatened and killing is the only option" quite worrying, i am a Therevadin Buddhist and i can see clearly that the Kendo-Buddhist connection seems to have been construed on a very odd basis. Zen Buddhism itself , let alone The Bushido ethic , a distortion of original Buddhism with many Japanese cultural infiltrations , and its connection to kendo seems to be flawed. to try and use Buddhist principles Of "self discipline" and "self mastery" and "perfection" and apply them to the wielding of a sharp killing instrument are merely taking these Buddhist ideals wildly out of context. Just as Christians took the ideal of "spreading the faith" and used it in the context of the crusades or the conquest of the Incas and basically tried to connect it with what was plainly speaking mass slaughter.

The Buddhist ideals of self mastery, discipline and perfection are to be used in the context of morality which is summed up by the 8foldpath and also in the realm of detatchment from sensory desires (four noble truths), and as ATTATCHMENT is the cause of suffering and SENSE DESIRE is the cause of attatchment , then in the context of Kendo, any sort of attatchment to a sport or a Budo "code" or a warrior like way of life or any spirit of competition or ambition in the field of kendo to a strict Buddhist would be classified as wrong. (and im speaking in absolute terms, not "bending the rules of Buddhism" which is invariably what every buddhist will do including myself)


I am not sure your allegations of zen buddhism as being a distortion is a very proportionate arguement.

Zen Buddism teaches the Four Noble Truths, The eight-fold path, and the five precepts (although in zen we have ten). The first precept is not to kill or cause suffering to sentient beings. I gave up fishing even when I took refuge vows within Buddhism and to this day have not knowingly killed even a fly.

I think its important for you not to confuse bushido with zen. It is true many warriors turned to zen to make sense of their lives, often after all the killing had ended, others to assist in taking one day at a time by 'living in the present moment'. Also very Buddhist.

The morality enjoined on your buddhist tradition is no different to that of any zen buddhist.

The difference comes in how satori or enlightenment can be achieved. We believe we can awaken in this life and not wait to endure endless rebirths. The focus is on the 'now' not being a good person hoping to come back as a better person and avoid the lower realms. Also that enlightment is achieved by zazen not necessarily accruing merit or study. Sorry thats rather too potted an explanation as dont want to write a book on here.

I would agree that the later buddhist sects have adopted a lot of shinto and other weird and wonderful ideas and would agree that they are not main stream buddhist. ie the Nicheren shoshu. I have read their works and its bears little resemblance to the Buddhism I know.

I started within Tibetan Buddhism but it reminded me too much of Roman Cathlicism with its own Pope, priests and endless liturgies and initiations. Yawn. No offence tibetans.

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

Im sorry if i offended you, you totally misunderstood me, i meant that Bushido is supposedly derived from Zen and Zen is derived from Buddhism, maybe corruption is too strong a word, i never implied that Zed had a single trace of violence in it as i am sure and certain it doesnt . I just notice that together with the general umbrella of the Mahayana tradition, many of their beliefs as regards to a future buddha, Matreiya or Amitibha and also semi deified Bodhisattvas together with belief in a Pure land or the deification of the buddha (we strictly see him as a HUMAN BEING which he himself claimed he was) there seems to be a great deviation from the original Therevadin doctrine of Buddhism, but certainly in the fundemental moral precepts and a score of other areas they corellate perfectly
Unfortuanately the authority of buddhist scripture is not ultimate so issues such as the existence of a future Buddha etc are ultimately not fully resolvable so im not saying that Mahayana buddhism is wrong just that i believe it has a different interpretation to what mine is
As for Tibetan buddhism, unfortuantely i dont consider it to be Buddhism at all, its alot like Kaballah is to Judaism

[ben]

Going way back, I would agree that a kote could well be a killing blow. In a time without modern medicine, the chances of dying from blood loss or infection due to a severed hand were extremely high.

Secondly, Zen did not come from China as Pure Land Buddhism. Zen was already Zen (Ch'an) in Sung-era China. Pure Land was also already Pure Land (Hua Yu'en...sp?) in China before transplantation to Japan.

Later sword schools did not adopt bits of Shinto. If anything it is the oldest sword schools who are most closely identified with Shinto (viz. Tenshin Shoden Katori SHINTO Ryu being the oldest extant ryu apparently).

Mahayana and Theravada Buddhists are always going to disagree! Why I prefer the Mahayana is the notion (esp. in Dogen's Soto Zen) that we are all *originally* enlightened. For me, it is the Theravada (more than Tibetan) tradition that feels like the Christianity I was raised in. That's just me though. We'd never have the Mahayana without the Theravada, so I perform deep *gassho* to my Theravada brothers and sisters!

Other than that a real interesting discussion! I have nothing to add other than nitpicking! :P

b

[John Tee]

I understand where your coming of but I dont think Zen should be confused either with Pureland Buddhism either. Ive never heard talk of any buddhas to come etc. I agree totally with you.. the Buddha is not a god but a human being who achieved satori. Some lay buddhists talk about buddha as if he was Jesus. Praying for this and that. Asking his protection etc. The whole point of buddhism is that everything you need is right inside you. You dont need anything to add to you . You may need things taken away from you. Buddha merely shared this truth and subsequant masters share and train other students. The only trascendant aspect of Buddha is that as he has achieved nirvana and moved beyond ego his buddha nature and ours our connected so their is a communication of sorts as there is only one buddha nature. I think the perceived deification of aspects of the buddha is merely an attempt to objectify the inner journey. I personally dont find it helpful but the masses may do. Hence the popularity of Tibetan Buddhism. Its a buddhism for the peasants of Tibet in essense. As Christianity was to the masses in medieval Europe. Zen however requires a deep level of personal maturity, discipline and practise. There is not much room for bullshitters. Whereas in some of the more popular forms of current buddhism there is a lot of superficiality. Acid test is to ask them how long have they been on their zafu today. Its a question also worth asking ourselves too occassionally.

[ekajati]

Hence the popularity of Tibetan Buddhism. Its a buddhism for the peasants of Tibet in essense. As Christianity was to the masses in medieval Europe. Zen however requires a deep level of personal maturity, discipline and practise. There is not much room for bullshitters. Whereas in some of the more popular forms of current buddhism there is a lot of superficiality.

How much do you actually know about Tibetan Buddhism? I think you'll find, if you take the trouble to move beyond your quite sweeping prejudice, that there are quite as many bullshitting peasants in Zen as there are in any other path. There are also just as many genuine intelligent intellectuals (Dalai Lama springs instantly to mind) in Tibetan Buddhism. Why, I think you'll agree that I myself can spell ! :D :D :D Further evidence of a certain degree of mental sophistication in Tibetan Buddhism is that one of the acid tests of "personal maturity, discipline and practice" is the absence of trivialising or insulting other paths, perceiving them to be inferior.

[ekajati]

']i can see clearly that the Kendo-Buddhist connection seems to have been construed on a very odd basis. The Buddhist ideals of self mastery, discipline and perfection are to be used in the context of morality which is summed up by the 8foldpath and also in the realm of detatchment from sensory desires (four noble truths), and as ATTATCHMENT is the cause of suffering and SENSE DESIRE is the cause of attatchment , then in the context of Kendo, any sort of attatchment to a sport or a Budo "code" or a warrior like way of life to a strict Buddhist would be classified as wrong. (and im speaking in absolute terms, not "bending the rules of Buddhism" which is invariably what every buddhist will do including myself)

True, I guess, but then the same applies to attachment to a certain path (Theravada, Tibetan "peasant" :wink: Buddhism, Zen etc). The wisest words so far for me were from Joegor786's Buddhist friend: (sorry I don't use the quote thingy, I get a bit lost with it)

"It is not the striking and hitting, but the thoughts and the chain of actions that are involving. Through these series of "mental movements", we learn how to purify the thought and put it in action to get a "good" result."

by which I understand that the "point" of Kendo, for a Buddhist, is not about the context itself or the outward actions, but more about the "self-perfection" that can be brought about by consciously using them as a tool.

[Matt Molloy]

Originally Posted by John Tee
Hence the popularity of Tibetan Buddhism. Its a buddhism for the peasants of Tibet in essense. As Christianity was to the masses in medieval Europe. Zen however requires a deep level of personal maturity, discipline and practise. There is not much room for bullshitters. Whereas in some of the more popular forms of current buddhism there is a lot of superficiality.

Originally Posted by Ejakati
How much do you actually know about Tibetan Buddhism? I think you'll find, if you take the trouble to move beyond your quite sweeping prejudice, that there are quite as many bullshitting peasants in Zen as there are in any other path. There are also just as many genuine intelligent intellectuals (Dalai Lama springs instantly to mind) in Tibetan Buddhism. Why, I think you'll agree that I myself can spell ! :D :D :D Further evidence of a certain degree of mental sophistication in Tibetan Buddhism is that one of the acid tests of "personal maturity, discipline and practice" is the absence of trivialising or insulting other paths, perceiving them to be inferior.



*Life of Brian*Brothers! Sisters! Let us not fight amongst ourselves but combine against the common enemy!

Crowd: The Judean Peoples Front!?!?!?!

Ahem, no. The Romans.*Life of Brian*

Sorry couldn't resist. :D

Cheers,

Matt.

[ekajati]

*Life of Brian*Brothers! Sisters! Let us not fight amongst ourselves but combine against the common enemy!

Crowd: The Judean Peoples Front!?!?!?!

Ahem, no. The Romans.*Life of Brian*

Sorry couldn't resist. :D

Cheers,

Matt.

:D :D :D heheh! Thanx! :wink:

[John Tee]

How much do you actually know about Tibetan Buddhism? I think you'll find, if you take the trouble to move beyond your quite sweeping prejudice, that there are quite as many bullshitting peasants in Zen as there are in any other path. There are also just as many genuine intelligent intellectuals (Dalai Lama springs instantly to mind) in Tibetan Buddhism. Why, I think you'll agree that I myself can spell ! :D :D :D Further evidence of a certain degree of mental sophistication in Tibetan Buddhism is that one of the acid tests of "personal maturity, discipline and practice" is the absence of trivialising or insulting other paths, perceiving them to be inferior.

What do I know about Tibetan buddhism. Well I have trained in both the Gulugpa and Kagyu traditions of Tibetan buddihsm. I dont feel that any form of Buddhism is inferior to another. The point I was making is that the peasant religion of Tibet equates to the less sophisticated west in the middle ages. My move away from it towards Zen was for personal reasons. I prefered the simplicity, less reliance on Llamas and the quality of the practitioners. Ultimately what I am saying is that the people I met within the western Tibetan tradition I personally found reminded me of the people I endured in my Christian evangical background. You find none of that within Zen. I am sure that obviously not all Tibetan Buddhists fall into that catergory and I have met some wonderful individuals along the way.

You are wrong about Zen and peasants. The peasansts tended to go with Purelands Buddhism and more latterly the various Nicheren sects.Although we do not have peasants anymore. Very few people within Japan practise soto or rinzai zen. After all, its all about sitting on your zafu for hours. Not a lot there for the average peasant to get excited about! No bells and whistles, no initiations and tantric secrets to reaveal. These statements come from experience of both history and practise. They have nothing to do with predjudice or who is superior to whome.

[ekajati]

I prefered the simplicity, less reliance on Llamas

You used to rely on furry animals with long ears? Mmmmm:silly:

[Matt Molloy]

You used to rely on furry animals with long ears? Mmmmm:silly:

D*mn. Beaten to it. :D

Cheers,

Matt.

[John Tee]

You used to rely on furry animals with long ears? Mmmmm:silly:


How else do you expect me to get up that mountain to pray??:silly: :silly:

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

its a well known fact that Tibetan buddhism is highly esoteric and im sure were the Buddha to come face to face with Tibetan buddhism and its many many superstitions and alterations (prayer flags, prayer wheels, so called "blessings" and healings and alot of astrology , belief in demons spirits and various deities like a "Medicine Buddha" together witthh the HIGHLY hieractrhichal nature of its monastic community) he would be very dissapointed and utterly confused, im sure if Buddha even came across many Therevadin monestaries he would be shocked, specialy at the widespread use of the Buddha image, he even stated himself that he should not be idolized or made into imagery yet one of he founding principles of Buddhist architecture is the image of the Buddha himself. i guess its just the nature of all religions to inevitably deviate totaly from their founding principles, although i believe the closest we can get to the core of Buddhism is observation of the actual Discourses of the Buddha (the Pali canon) adhered to by strict Therevadins

[Ryan213]

I am currently of no religion and to put it basically. Nobody dies practicing Kendo. (Although it doesnt really happen these days) People will die when they duel with real swords with the intent of killing. Practicing Kendo is just going to make you more inclined to be the one surviving. Id say theres no harm done to your spirituality and probably even benefit by practicing how to endure this now non-common situation. Remember the purpose of Kendo is (amongst other things) to perfect the human character though the application of the Katana.
Just my immediate thoughts.

[John Tee]

Its odd really. Since a young teen for me at least, spirituality and martial arts have been totally connected. I suspect thought that I am not normal in that respect. In my weekly training the majority if not all my fellow iaidoka demonstrate no interest in the spiritual aspects of martial arts at all, although I suppose if pressed they would say it improves ones character. Having seen some of their characters I would doubt that too on occasion!

It is clear therefore that it is possible to practise JSA without recourse to religion. In fact I find that there is much 'ego' within JSA. You see it in the pride, even on here, that some iaidoka hold there dan grading in and the way in which they 'deify' their ryu.

Rank, ego, superiority are worthless values in buddhism. That doesnt mean that due respect is not given to those with such rank etc.

I suspect its like most things.The higher up the dan grading the more humble the practitioners.

For me JSA provides fitness,fellowship and a wonderful framework for a philosophy of life. However, no matter how advanced one is, it can never address the hard core issues of life that Buddhism does. So I am driven to practise both.

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

I am currently of no religion and to put it basically. Nobody dies practicing Kendo. (Although it doesnt really happen these days) People will die when they duel with real swords with the intent of killing. Practicing Kendo is just going to make you more inclined to be the one surviving. Id say theres no harm done to your spirituality and probably even benefit by practicing how to endure this now non-common situation. Remember the purpose of Kendo is (amongst other things) to perfect the human character though the application of the Katana.
Just my immediate thoughts.

does that not make going to a Shooting range buddhist?

[CryingFreeman]

Throughout history man will often attach a religion or belief to his activities or way of life in order to keep a clear conscience when engaging in morally questionable pursuits

for me this is the connection between buddhism and kendo

[Ryan213]

Either way, I hope you come to a positive conclusion about it all.
All the best.

[John Tee]

Throughout history man will often attach a religion or belief to his activities or way of life in order to keep a clear conscience when engaging in morally questionable pursuits

for me this is the connection between buddhism and kendo


Zen isnt a religion and Iai/kendo isnt morally questionable.

[Michiyo Akimoto]

I would go so far as to say, without the concepts of Zen, Kendo doesn't exist.

[nodachi]

I think you can very easily practice kendo without the existance of zen. It may serve the purpose of making kendo more than just a physical activity for some people, but it doesn't have to be there for kendo to exist. For each, his own... zen is just one direction of many possible choices for people to go in their kendo...

[John Tee]

I think you can very easily practice kendo without the existance of zen. It may serve the purpose of making kendo more than just a physical activity for some people, but it doesn't have to be there for kendo to exist. For each, his own... zen is just one direction of many possible choices for people to go in their kendo...

Nodachi is right. All JSA can be practised and usually is without Zen. But...when your life feels like shit and very often it does.....looking at your shinai standing in the corner might not speak back any answers.

[ben]

I think you hit the nail on the head above JonT when you spoke about ego. To my mind, the aim of both kendo and Zen is to understand/conquer/do-without the ego. For me, mushin does not just mean not thinking for a few moments, it means being truly empty. To achieve that, I believe that it is necessary to face head-on the construction we call 'self' or 'ego'. When you have understood and accepted how limited a notion the self is, how fleeting, how dependent on delusion and reinforcement, it is easier to 'let go', or 'go beyond'.

This is not the only way to derive richness from kendo, just my way. But the OP's question was about a clash, and this is my answer.

Zen talks about jiriki (self power) as opposed to tariki (other power), meaning that Zen requires effort (jiriki) from the practitioner to "see directly into the human heart". Other traditions believe in the intercession of a higher power that responds to our entreaties (prayers). This is tariki. However it is not Zen to say that Zen has nothing to do with tariki. Tariki and jiriki are a duality and of course Zen rejects all dualities. Most English-speakers would know the saying "God helps those who help themselves", or the less religious, "fortune favours the brave". This is jiriki and tariki combined. My Zen teacher would also say that if you expend sincere effort, then you will find your practice is "supported", as if from outside. The main point is to practice without any thought of receiving this 'outside help', then the help appears. This is to practice with mushotoku (no thought of profit). If you practice with the hope of some outside help, you will obsess about it and get grumpy when it does not come! Your practice will probably not last very long!

All these things apply equally to my Zen practice and my kendo practice.

b

[satsumaruma]

I know a lady who is a retired Prison Chaplain who once explained to me the basic idea behind Gnosticism and how closely their belief system was similar to that of Buddhists.

I say was, because Gnosticism is no longer a recognised religion as such and any that practice it are a very small minority and are regarded as a 'sect'.

The reason I mention this in this thread is that despite the fact that these two ancient belief systems are very similar - It is interesting to note that Zen is linked to the activities of a warrior class whereas Gnosticism abhorred such activities.

I am no expert on this and am only relaying what I have been told - so I have no wish to engage in any drawn out argument about this. I have also been told that it is quite 'possible' that Gnosticism was the 'forerunner' for idealogy that is contained within such faiths as Buddhism. This is not to cast Buddhism into disrepute but to merely point out that no religion is actually 'new' - just merely a reconfiguration of some previous 'understanding'.

I think it is worth pausing to consider that many lives have been lost for a faith. Any faith.

And to this day, this minute, this second they still continue to be lost.

Just a thought ladies and gentlemen....just a thought....

[John Tee]

Without googling any results (I am too lazy). Gnosticism comes from the Greek for knowledge.. 'gnosis'. Gnosticism was a sect that rivalled Christianitity and was condsidered an heretical sect. As far as I am aware they never co-existed in any buddhist countries and as such I do not think the sect had any influence. Neither did it feature in the Buddha's upbringing.

Gnosticism believed that salvation came from knowledge of certain things. Often these things were of a secret and esoteric nature. I am sure google will give a more comprehensive history of this sect/philosophy.

What is sure I think is that it along with the other heretical sects in middle europe all died away with Catholicism dominating the other 'versions', which also included the Arians and Donatists.

In fact as one point it was a toss up who would be the pre eminent church.Dontatist of Catholic? If Islam had not wiped out all of the donatists from North Africa there would have been a good chance of the Donatist Church being the world force the Catholoic church is today.

I would not want you to confuse Buddhism/Zen with a faith or religion though.

What motivates every buddhist I know is that it is exactly neither of the above. Also and it is on record as the only belief system which doesnt proselatize or enforce or kill as part of its beliefs.

At the end of the day it is the individual who must make his own mind up about JSA and Buddism, and or if there is a clash.

[Michiyo Akimoto]

I think you can very easily practice kendo without the existence of zen. It may serve the purpose of making kendo more than just a physical activity for some people, but it doesn't have to be there for kendo to exist. For each, his own... zen is just one direction of many possible choices for people to go in their kendo...

This is an interesting point.
What about Mushin?
Well then what is Zen exactly?
To me,
it is brushing my teeth,
executing a men cut.
eating a banana.
chudan.
laughing at a joke.
kiai.
a burp.
mokuso.
getting angry.

Perhaps you get my point.
I see it as:
Zen isn't only one thing..and yet it is as well.
It is everything, and nothing.
The name is perhaps meaningless.
Can one name one's own breath?

Perhaps this is where many people get too "hung up" on semantics and naming of things.

[don don]

I would not want you to confuse Buddhism/Zen with a faith or religion though.
(John Tee)

I met a Hungry Ghost once at an Obon festival. He insisted Buddhism wasn't a religion. I assured him it was. Interesting chat.

[John Tee]

I met a Hungry Ghost once at an Obon festival. He insisted Buddhism wasn't a religion. I assured him it was. Interesting chat.

I had a chat with a pychotic once who said that everything I was talking about in zen was mirrored in what his shrink tells him in cognitive therapy.

[ben]

Since we're OT... did you hear about the Buddhist who went up to the hotdog vendor and said, "Can you make me one with everything?".

An oldie but a goodie.

b

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

This is an interesting point.
What about Mushin?
Well then what is Zen exactly?
To me,
it is brushing my teeth,
executing a men cut.
eating a banana.
chudan.
laughing at a joke.
kiai.
a burp.
mokuso.
getting angry.

Perhaps you get my point.
I see it as:
Zen isn't only one thing..and yet it is as well.
It is everything, and nothing.
The name is perhaps meaningless.
Can one name one's own breath?

Perhaps this is where many people get too "hung up" on semantics and naming of things.

your trying to give a very mystical answer to something that is far more Logical than this sort of weak gimmiky philosophy, i am reminded of the last samurai ("life in every breath, in every cup of tea, in every life we take") . Getting angry and burping mite seem Zen but how bout you talk to our good friend mr Bodhidarma and hel probaby tell you that Zen is detatchment from senses and meditation, i think Burping will be very low down on his list and probably contradicts bodily disciplnie, as does anger


Zen isn't only one thing..and yet it is as well.
It is everything, and nothing.
The name is perhaps meaningless.
Can one name one's own breath?


Im sorry this just doesnt wash in serious Buddhist circles, i expect to find this sort of stuff in some American Nichiren "Circle of Companions" .. as Bodhidarma himself said
"Buddhas don't practice nonsense"

[Hazumi]

Kendo without Zen? Of course!
I started marshal arts @ 16 because I was interested in Buddhism. I believed that they were inseparable. And to my first English Sensei they were, we even stayed at a Buddhist monastery as part of the training.
My present opinion is that the best in the Dojo are those that practice the strokes not those that sit in Mokuso.
I once asked one of my Japanese Sensei “Why do you not teach us the philosophy as well as the techniques?”
Standard reply, “You in the west would not understand” (With a twist)…. but we do not teach it in Japan either, as they also don’t understand.
I have no desire to kill anyone, yet I learn how to kill. I also sit in Mokuso.
Is this not weird?
Most serious Budoka (in the classical (?) sense) are not violent people. We would think more than twice before we got in the “cage”. On the one hand we must satisfy our most basic instinct for survival in a hostile world and on the other hand we must wrap it in a fine cloth of philosophy and Zen. It works for me. And bullet08 I’ll have that beer with you afterwards.
Thank you all for a most interesting topic.
:wink:

[John Tee]

Can one name one's own breath?
.

Yes....its called..ones breath.

[John Tee]

On the one hand we must satisfy our most basic instinct for survival in a hostile world


The whole premise of zen is based on peeling back the layers of habit, wrong thinking, ignorance and desire that have combined to produced the fuc**ed up charaters we are today.

You are right to point out the basic instinct for survival.

However, it is this very instinct to which you allude which causes suffering to ourselfs and others. It sees the world in terms of 'us' and 'them'. People are potentially our enemies vieing for our women and food. It translates to personality clashes... right the way through to cut throat deals in business... and national wars.It is no more than ego/self asserting itself. It is based on a false view of self not our true nature which can only be percieved by awakening.

How we achieve awakining is subject to debate within the various schools in Buddhism. My first paragraph speaks of the Zen approach to awakening.

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

Most serious Budoka (in the classical (?) sense) are not violent people. We would think more than twice before we got in the “cage”. On the one hand we must satisfy our most basic instinct for survival in a hostile world and on the other hand we must wrap it in a fine cloth of philosophy and Zen. It works for me. And bullet08 I’ll have that beer with you afterwards.
Thank you all for a most interesting topic.

Most serious "Buddhist" would agree that satisfying "our most basic instict for survivial in a hostille world" does not involve the killing of others, in fact Mahatma Ghandhi guaranteed the survival and freedom of his people through extreme nonviolence, what Basic instict of survival were the samurais fighthing for? Decades of civil war were fought between rival warlords with paid armies, fighting for defence? No, for power. The Samurais in the tokugawa shogunate? Fighting for survival? i dont think so, fighting to repress a populace who couldnt even leave their borders. No, we cann not wrap war and killiong in a "fine cloth of philosophy", thats called spin, and its a tactic used by them most deceitful of politicans,

[Michiyo Akimoto]

']your trying to give a very mystical answer to something that is far more Logical than this sort of weak gimmiky philosophy, i am reminded of the last samurai ("life in every breath, in every cup of tea, in every life we take") . Getting angry and burping mite seem Zen but how bout you talk to our good friend mr Bodhidarma and hel probaby tell you that Zen is detatchment from senses and meditation, i think Burping will be very low down on his list and probably contradicts bodily disciplnie, as does anger


I make no claim to answer anything, other than what is my nature.
However, cannot one attain satori even while burping?
Or must we engage in ritual to do so.
What defines a low or high act?
On the issue of reverence, I am reminded of the old bushi saying;
"If even the Buddha himself stands between you and your goal, cut him down without hesitation!"



']
Im sorry this just doesnt wash in serious Buddhist circles, i expect to find this sort of stuff in some American Nichiren "Circle of Companions" .. as Bodhidarma himself said
"Buddhas don't practice nonsense"

[QUOTE='[Kensei 剣の聖者]']
You appear to have it all figured out then.
I leave it you to save us all.
:happy:

[Michiyo Akimoto]

Yes....its called..ones breath.

Yes, but what would it be if you did not call it such?

[John Tee]

Yes, but what would it be if you did not call it such?

It would be the same as everything else is when not communicated verbally.

[Michiyo Akimoto]

It would be the same as everything else is when not communicated verbally.

I like your answer sir!
Simply Wonderous!
:laugh:

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

I make no claim to answer anything, other than what is my nature.
However, cannot one attain satori even while burping?
Or must we engage in ritual to do so.
What defines a low or high act?
On the issue of reverence, I am reminded of the old bushi saying;
"If even the Buddha himself stands between you and your goal, cut him down without hesitation!"

who do u think you are, Master Yoda are something>? firstly let me correct you on a Factual error, its not an "old Bushi saying" , its a quote taken from a chinese Monk Called Linji (Lin Chi) who founded the Linji School of Chan buddhism in China, and its idiots like you who think thats some sort of Bushido affirmation of the resolve to destroy someone who is in your way. Thats piffle, anyway the actual quote is "If you meet Buddha on the road, kill him". its mainly concerned with the destruction (killing) of attatchment to the Buddha as a godhead or iconic divinity


We all come to practice carrying around images or ideals of who we should be and what we imagine a Teacher or Buddha should look like. And we may chase after individuals that for a while seem like they live up to our image, ignore those who do not, and generally treat ourselves with contempt for not living up to the standards set by our imaginary inner "Buddha." All this may keep us pretty busy, but it has nothing to do with real practice, which is an awareness of who and what we actually are, not the pursuit of some ideal of who we think we should be. So "killing the Buddha" means killing or wiping out this fantasy image, and "the road" is two fold: the road outside where we look outside ourselves for the ones who have all the answers, and the inner mind road, where we set up all the "shoulds" we must obey to turn ourselves into the Buddhas we don't believe we already are, but think we must become. Thats just a little meatier explanation written in a nice article


However, cannot one attain satori even while burping?


well listen, Satori can really by summed up by a Realization, the realisation is of many things, (transitory nature of the world, egolessness, etc), genuine meditation of a contemplative nature is supposed to lead us to this goal according to Buddha, and there are higher and lower order acts. There are appetative acts (eating shitting farting havin sex ) and their are higher intelectual acts (thinking writing acting moraly etc) , and to assert that something so profound as The realization of the ultimate truths of this world is to be found in a burp , well i dont really have to spell it out for you

[Michiyo Akimoto]

']who do u think you are, Master Yoda are something>? firstly let me correct you on a Factual error, its not an "old Bushi saying" , its a quote taken from a Chinese Monk Called Linji (Lin Chi) who founded the Linji School of Chan Buddhism in China, and its idiots like you who think that's some sort of Bushido affirmation of the resolve to destroy someone who is in your way. That's piffle, anyway the actual quote is "If you meet Buddha on the road, kill him". its mainly concerned with the destruction (killing) of attachment to the Buddha as a godhead or iconic divinity


I never stated that I was any sort of "yoda", although since no being called "yoda" indeed exists as an entity other than inside one's mind, then where is the comparison?
You appear to be quite angry, hostile, and incensed regarding others whom you have never met or know nothing about, and quick to denounce, defame and insult without provocation.
Was I mistaken in that this was a place in which to exchange Ideas?
Have I broken some rule that I am unaware of?

Another expression I am reminded of is:
Those who overcome others are powerful; those who overcome themselves are strong.
This is my path, one that I hope to journey throughout with Kendo.

On the issue of the expression itself, I heard the expression from my parents, who in turn heard it from theirs and I assume so on.
If the origins are from China, this does not surprise me in the least.
Thank you for your advisement. As for the meaning, I meant it as you mentioned.



']
well listen, Satori can really by summed up by a Realization, the realization is of many things, (transitory nature of the world, egolessness, etc), genuine meditation of a contemplative nature is supposed to lead us to this goal according to Buddha, and there are higher and lower order acts. There are appetitive acts (eating shitting farting having sex ) and their are higher intellectual acts (thinking writing acting morally etc) , and to assert that something so profound as The realization of the ultimate truths of this world is to be found in a burp , well i don't really have to spell it out for you

From this last sentence, am I to believe that you are an enlightened master, have the world in the palm of your hand, and need no more explanation other than your own?
Are insults the pinnacle of wisdom?

Those who know, do no say.
Those who say, do not know.

Without knowing you
I say to you
Arrogance is your enemy.
I wish you well.

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

I never stated that I was any sort of "yoda", although since no being called "yoda" indeed exists as an entity other than inside one's mind, then where is the comparison?
You appear to be quite angry, hostile, and incensed regarding others whom you have never met or know nothing about, and quick to denounce, defame and insult without provocation.
Was I mistaken in that this was a place in which to exchange Ideas?
Have I broken some rule that I am unaware of?

Yes im studying Philosophy and i am angry , hostle and incensed when i believe that other people have got it radically wrong, i am not incesned or hostile or angry when people have differing views from me, only if they are informed and intelligent views, but when they are off the scale of stupidity then they anoy me? Who who knows does not say, he who says does not know, listen you can be a little quote machine till the cows come home, but at the end of the day Buddha knew and he said as did a very susbtantial number of his followers who have branched out into a plethora of schools all of which have claimed to know and have said. We can all say what we want and if it is true it wil stand up to a test of Logic, what you say is drivel and im afraid youve failed this test "my friend"

[Michiyo Akimoto]

']Yes im studying Philosophy and i am angry , hostile and incensed when i believe that other people have got it radically wrong,


This is an interesting point.
When you mean "Got it wrong", what do you feel is "it?"
And why should it make you angry?
Whom are you attempting to convince?
And of what?


']
i am not incensed or hostile or angry when people have differing views from me,


I'd like to point out that, this statement appears to me as logically incorrect.
Clearly we have differing views in your mind, and clearly you appear to me as angry. Your words reflect this, do they not?


']
only if they are informed and intelligent views, but when they are off the scale of stupidity then they anoy me?


Are you now saying that you possess authority in terms of what is universally
informed and intelligent, and that you equate views contrary to your own as ignorance and therefore level a measurement of stupidity?


']
Who who knows does not say, he who says does not know, listen you can be a little quote machine till the cows come home, but at the end of the day Buddha knew and he said as did a very substantial number of his followers who have branched out into a plethora of schools all of which have claimed to know and have said.


I admit, I am fond of quotation. It helps me to visualize.
And what of this?;
"Not by hate is hate defeated; hate is quenched by love. This is the eternal law."

Please forgive my attempt at hoisting you by your own petard, but I wonder if you can see the irony in your contradictory statements?
I am not certain where I read it, but I believe that the Buddha also said something to the effect of "When I am gone, many will attempt to state that their own school based upon what I have told you is the one, true law. Do not listen to them, but rather I can only point to the way, each man must find the result themselves.

You appear to have much knowledge of dharma, but I ask you;
Has this resulted in your true goal? Will books or knowledge be the only path you take?
My feeling is; onCe you have read every book, every sutra that there is on Buddha's teachings, toss them into a fire and forget everything you have learned.


']
We can all say what we want and if it is true it will stand up to a test of Logic, what you say is drivel and im afraid you've failed this test "my friend"


This is perhaps where we misunderstand each other most.
I feel that one cannot employ logic or think their way past the barriers to obtain what they seek in this regard. Neither do I look upon it as a test.
Such is how I feel about Kendo.
The more I think, the father away I will be from my understanding.
Understanding that I am already complete, needing nothing, but yet insisting in my conscious mind that logically I do, is a great challenge.
This is what I mean when I write that Satori can be found everywhere in all things.
So far I have seen only the tiniest of glimpses,
and then it is gone.
I can only be what I am.

[John Tee]

Well compassion is also a test too and so we have failed also. You are both the same and share the same buddha nature you are therefore insulting not only your dharma brother sister but are engaged in dualism which is not buddhist.

Awakening is when one realises the eternal for certain. Has touched that which is unborn, undying, uncreated,the unchanging. When that happens an idividual does not fear life nor death. Birth and death cease to exist.They are just two position from the worlds point of view. But for you there is no birth or dying.

[Michiyo Akimoto]

Well compassion is also a test too and so we have failed also. You are both the same and share the same buddha nature you are therefore insulting not only your dharma brother sister but are engaged in dualism which is not buddhist.


True. Thank you for reminding me of that.
Though in my view, labels of actions are meaniningless.
Only the action itself persists being just as it is.



Awakening is when one realises the eternal for certain. Has touched that which is unborn, undying, uncreated,the unchanging. When that happens an idividual does not fear life nor death. Birth and death cease to exist.They are just two position from the worlds point of view. But for you there is no birth or dying.

For my part, I have always mused if the individual is too an illusion?
My gut tells me yes.
But then, there is always Makyo isn't there?

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

if there were no labels to actions then why are you using labels for your own actions , i mean itsl ike saying "i dont believe in language" ur contradicting yourself because your saying that to me through language

[John Tee]

']if there were no labels to actions then why are you using labels for your own actions , i mean itsl ike saying "i dont believe in language" ur contradicting yourself because your saying that to me through language

A lack of compassion is a 'reality' irrespective of what language is used or not used and its karmic imprint will be indelibly on ones mind stream and will ripen when the conditions are right.

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

opening peoples eyes to the fact that they might be wrong is a very compassionate thing to do

[John Tee]

']opening peoples eyes to the fact that they might be wrong is a very compassionate thing to do


Yes it is and is a grace only reserved to buddhas.

:wink:

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

Fairrrrrr en

[Hazumi]

']. No, we cann not wrap war and killiong in a "fine cloth of philosophy",

:devious: My point exactly. Or should I say we should not try to. How many of us practice a Budo with the understanding that one day we will Kill? Non I hope, so there is no need to cloak our activities in a compassionate dressing. So what motivates us to do so. What base instinct compells us to learn these arts of war when we have no need. Is the fragile link with Zen our consience trying to wrest back control.

[John Tee]

:devious: My point exactly. Or should I say we should not try to. How many of us practice a Budo with the understanding that one day we will Kill? Non I hope, so there is no need to cloak our activities in a compassionate dressing. So what motivates us to do so. What base instinct compells us to learn these arts of war when we have no need. Is the fragile link with Zen our consience trying to wrest back control.

I do not consider I am learning 'an art of war'. No more than the buddhist monks who were fed up of being mugged on there travels did when they invented bojutso (as the monks did not carry arms).

There is something honourable in having the where-with-all to defend oneself and the weak and innocent but not having to use it. The threat is there though. Victory will always be in the scabbard. Speak softly but carry a big stick!

[Michiyo Akimoto]

']if there were no labels to actions then why are you using labels for your own actions , i mean itsl ike saying "i dont believe in language" ur contradicting yourself because your saying that to me through language

I think you are correct.
I believe it is a contradiction.
and one of the many paradoxes
I often find myself in.
Most notably when I think too much.
:cheeky:

[Michiyo Akimoto]

']opening peoples eyes to the fact that they might be wrong is a very compassionate thing to do


I agree sir.
You are most welcome.
:laugh:
(Joke)

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

lets all kiss and make up just like Buddha would have wanted it *huggggggggggggggggs all round*

[John Tee]

']lets all kiss and make up just like Buddha would have wanted it *huggggggggggggggggs all round*


You taking the piss lol heheheeh:silly: :silly: