To Hantei or not to Hantei...

[M.K. Kawai]

How many times has this happened... You're out there tooth and nail with your opponent and neither side is managing to get a good strike. Regulation ends and then its on to encho. First encho ends, then the second, and then... you lose by judges' decision:(

You were both equally matched and yet one judge thought the other guy was better so you lose two to one. The problem is you don't know why the decision went against you:confused:

Personally, I'd like to have it out to the very end without a Hantei. But, that's not always practical.

If you were in the judges postion, what kind of criteria would you use to determine which Kenshi should go on to the next round? Or if you think the Hantei is simply unfair, can you suggest another alternative to the Hantei?

MKK

[Neil Gendzwill]

I don't like hantei either. We run a small tournament each year at our seminar. We're very tight on time, so we run ippon-shobu until the semi-finals, then sanbon-shobu, no hantei for any of it. Ensho is unlimited - we don't bother stopping every two minutes or whatever.

I don't have a lot of experience judging hantei myself, but if I did have to go by hantei, I sort in the following order:

1. Who had more close calls, points where one piece of the puzzle is missing.
2. Who is more aggressive, who is pushing the fight.
3. Who has better fundamentals.

[Curtis]

The IKF rulebook states it as follows:

Regulations Article 7, No. 5

In pronouncing Hantei, Shinpan-in shall take into consideration, first skill of Shiai-sha, then their attitudes in Shiai.

Subsidiary Rules Article 9

Hantei prescribed in article 7, Item 5 of the Regulations shall be based on the following criteria:
1. In case Shiai-sha has made Datotsu nearly equal to Yuko-datotsu, his or her skill should be regarded as superior: and
2. In case Shiai-sha is predominant in posture and movements, his or her attitude should be regarded as superior.

These are good guidelines but there is much more to consider quite often. As a shinpan I look for these as well as who is in control of the match. Is one person just making a lot of hits without a logical reason to hit (Riai)? During the last encho which person still has good posture?

A favorite late Sensei from CA of mine and a very senior Vancouver area, Canada Sensei told me that if the senior person in the match does not win then they give the hantei to the other person.

I sometimes fail to understand why a match has gone the way it has and what criteria they were using. It has to makes sense to the shiai-sha and the audience.

I personally do not care for hantei but it is a fact of life. It comes down to not letting the shinpan decide the match for you, but just confirming that you won. Judging your own match is also a mistake. Quite often I video tape my matches and then upon watching them I understand why I did not get the point. The view is also very different from the floor then it is from the sideline.

After a quarter of a century I still go to win and I still go to learn.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Curtis
Thanks, Marsten-sensei.

A favorite late Sensei from CA of mine and a very senior Vancouver area, Canada Sensei told me that if the senior person in the match does not win then they give the hantei to the other person.

I don't agree with that. If that were a common guideline, every time one was overmatched it would make sense to go for the tie, similar to team strategy. I don't think that's what hantei is trying to promote. In fact, if you normally play a little defensively, if hantei is a factor you'd want to play more aggressively because if you leave it at a tie the judges will tend to award the more aggressive player.

[Curtis]

I did not say I agree with it. I also do not believe that they always follow that line of thinking having watched the latter many times. But I also believe there is some validity in considering it. Each match is different. It is all about measuring each person and arriving at a fair decision.

That is why we have 3 Shinpan. It is not perfect but it better than 1. Which is similar to the answer I got from the IKF Sensei concerning Shinsa.

[Curtis]

One additional note to this discussion. This Sensei is one of the fairest judges in Canada. And that is what will win my respect every time. If I am on the court I know that there will no bias with him and I can always go ask about the match.

Being a Shinpan is not an easy task. It is difficult because you must become part of every match in a sense. If you do not then you will be caught unaware at the moment of a point. And to properly decide on a hantei requires that you keep in mind the whole match and not just some part of it. As stated before your decision has to make sense.

[Chusan]

Being Shinpan is no easy job, especially if it comes to hantei...
What I take into consideration are these things:
1. Kamae
2. Maai
3. Activity (players who`ve been blocking are lost in hantei when I`m shinpan)
That is enough for a fair judging, I think.
I personally believe that whenever a hantei happens, not the players failed, but the shinpans. I think that shinpan should observe any shiai very precisely and notice when there is the danger of hantei. Then it may be a good idea, interrupting the fruitless efforts of the combattants and telling them what to do to get a scoring datotsu. Another method: if one notices that there is a danger of hantei coming up, lower the standards for accepting datotsu. Don`t wait for the 100% Men, accept the 90% Men. If that doesn`t help, lower again. Be actively envolved in the shiai though you`re only observing, keep controling it. If hantei happens, it is not because of bad kendo-players but because of bad shinpan. Hantei just should NOT happen. My POV.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Chusan
Then it may be a good idea, interrupting the fruitless efforts of the combattants and telling them what to do to get a scoring datotsu.

That's a nice thing to do in a practice match or a tournament held at a seminar for the purposes of learning about tournaments (if you follow me). But it's not appropriate in a real taikai IMHO. It's the responsibility of the participants to know what they have to do and execute it as best they can, it's the job of the judges to evaluate their efforts and enforce the rules. It's not the place or time for coaching or tips.

Another method: if one notices that there is a danger of hantei coming up, lower the standards for accepting datotsu.

Hmm. The standards you are holding the players to certainly are different when judging the kyu division as opposed to say 4+ dan. But I don't think they should be changed midstream. This just gives the match to the first person to hit the same way they've been hitting all match without result, and certainly the loser will be justified in feeling upset.

If hantei happens, it is not because of bad kendo-players but because of bad shinpan.

Just not true. It often happens with very good players who simply don't give up points easily. I agree that hantei shouldn't happen - I just think it should be encho until someone wins.

[kendokamax]

I have seen a tape of police kendo team taikai.

They were I think 7 on each team, and judges were very very difficult about giving a good points. Every matchs that would result as hikiwake there would be an hantei. I think that was pretty cool. It ask the two players to be agressive and not just sit back and go for the hikiwake. Less strategy maybe, but better kendo in most cases.

[aru-ma]

with regards to unlimited encho, what's the longest recorded encho so far? I've seen a shiai with unlimited encho that went for about 10 minutes (that made the whole match to 15 mins.), I wasnt surprised with the length of the encho the match became really tiring to watch though I guess this is one of those rare things in a shiai.

[KhawMengLee]

Was that at the Uni Games in Adelaide where Adam Harrigan(sempai) and some Victorian guy with a mullet fought for about 20mins?

[aru-ma]

thats the one! were you there? that "victorian guy" is a friend of mine! were you participating?

[mingshi]

Originally posted by Curtis
The IKF rulebook states it as follows:
Hantei prescribed in article 7, Item 5 of the Regulations shall be based on the following criteria:
1. In case Shiai-sha has made Datotsu nearly equal to Yuko-datotsu, his or her skill should be regarded as superior: and
2. In case Shiai-sha is predominant in posture and movements, his or her attitude should be regarded as superior.


Hmmm, it seems like #2 rule does not favour Sport Kendo (aka head-bobing, body-bending) at all...

Never witness Hantei... They don't have it in the UK?
In case of a draw where both competitors have more or less equal skill, people just fight one long long Encho... The competitors keep taking some break time during Tsubazeriai, and the referees have to shout for Wakare all the time...:(

[JSchmidt]

"They don't have it in the UK?"

They do, but it's extremly rarely used, AFAIK. There was some talk about using it at the last Mumeshi Taikai, but they thought better of it. They did, though, use it for some of the kids competetions.
They seem to go by, that the longer the encho lasts, the less perfect datotsu they're looking for.

Jakob

[KhawMengLee]

thats the one! were you there? that "victorian guy" is a friend of mine! were you participating?

Couldn't make it but Adam is from our dojo so we got the hear about his match. The super long encho is already folklore...hehehehe.

Sounded like death though, Chris Wallace was my sensei though, back when I did kendo in Adelaide.

cheers

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by aru-ma
with regards to unlimited encho, what's the longest recorded encho so far?
A couple of years ago at the all-Japan championships there was a match (semi-final, final? I forget) that went so long they had to stop it to let the players have a rest. I think it had gone for 30 minutes when they stopped it for a 5 minute breather.

[AlexM]

U of Waterloo 2002. Taro Ariga vs. Matthew Raymond.

Over 15 freaking minutes of watching those two wack each other right before lunch. Everybody in the gym was waiting for the match to end to be able to go get something to eat. Excrutiating. Judges weren't giving any borderline calls until..... the head judge caled a meeting of the shinpan. I don't know what he said but on the next attack one of the shinpan put up a flag (and then brought it down when he realized that they should wait 5 minutes before declaring a winner... would look suspicious after all). Anyway, 1 minute latter Raymond got his point and lunch was mercifully called a few fights latter.

From that day forward I learned to hate watching nito matches...

[Neil Gendzwill]

Yeah, when Matthew won nationals in Montreal every single match I saw him in went encho, often 2 or 3 rounds. He's tough to score on and the judges don't seem to give him much.

[samurai999]

Hantei Hantei Hantei.. It doesn't matter to me what the heck is being used when I'm playing. I will try my best no matter what is being judged or who is playing against me.

But my opinion on Hantei? I don't like it. Why? I like my matches being settled with some closure to them. Hantei to me doesn't give me any significant closure to a match. Save "hantei-type" judging for shinsas.

Next, encho. The reason why hantei is sometimes used is to, plain and simple, save time. Otherwise tourneys like the steveston tourney will last until the "cows come home". We did that for the N/S tourney and for any "trophy position" matches, we did the unlimited encho, no time limit thing.

15min encho? Or total? Thats nothing. The NCKF matches, if Minami Sensei, Onitsuka Sensei, Matsuda Sensei, or Hamamatsu Sensei are playing each other, (if you are lucky) last 15min. They AVERAGE 20min ENCHO. I have seen encho go as long as 40min if any two of those 4 kenshi are playing each other.. Every time they go, we just sorta kick back and have a Snickers because we aren't going anywhere for a while. :D :D Those guys are so adept on each other's playing style that they know almost exactly what the other person likes to do and what their tendencies are.

Tim

[M.K. Kawai]

Mr. Kurukuru brought up an interesting point on another thread. At the North South Tournament you only had one encho before you got a hantei. I'm used to having two encho before hantei.

Even though the matches went faster I personally feel that if hantei is to be used, I would like to have at least two encho before hantei. What do you think? Is there a better alternative?

MKK

[moocow65]

ha.. 40 min shiai. that brings back memories. i went up against a nito guy for the first time at the north south tournament, i think 4 years ago. it was in the 1-3 dan group. the guy choked up on his daito so he was holding the shinai right up against the tsuba so his kote was impossible to hit and so was everything else. it was the court finals, and all the other courts were finished, and so we were the only two fighting, while everybody else was waiting. well, the match lasted for about 45 minutes, and i got a cheap kote on that guy. then right afterwards i had to go against hashimoto and lost. as for hantei, they should do it for everyone else except for me, cause i always lose in hantei.

[Chusan]

Originally posted by moocow65
as for hantei, they should do it for everyone else except for me, cause i always lose in hantei.
That was a good one :laugh:

[Inouye02]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by moocow65
]the guy choked up on his daito so he was holding the shinai right up against the tsuba

hey moocow i was told that you can't have your hand against the tsuba when going in for a strike , is this true ?

[misterkurukuru]

thoes moocow fight are stuff of legends here in southern california. If you have to fight moocow with no hantei, you know you are going to be out there for atleast 30 mins. Best "D" and clutch in team! but mr.kurukuru is also clutch in team...He beat some great teams back in the day and also had four TD's in one game for polk high! selling shoes suck! my son is pimplle master B
and my daughter is an air head....but no one can take away my 4 TD's! now, lets rock!

[AlexM]

Originally posted by samurai999

15min encho? Or total? Thats nothing.

Tim

I honestly don't remember how long that match actually was. It just seemed as if time was standing still....

They should schedule all nito matches for after lunch... Or better yet ban the damn thing! Hmmmmmm, maybe I should start a poll... :D

[Confound]

Originally posted by M.K. Kawai
Mr. Kurukuru brought up an interesting point on another thread.

. . . and in other news, the Royal Flying Pig Squadron flew in formation over London, to the great astonishment of all concerned.

c

[M.K. Kawai]

Flying pigs... Oh pleaze:o

That nothing compared to the Flying Pink Elephants of India. :eek: The load they can drop on top of you is most devestating!

MKK

[Inouye02]

looks like she needs the kurukuru waza eh mkk..

yaba daba doooooo !!

[M.K. Kawai]

From what I saw up north, an effective waza for smackdown:rolleyes:

Maybe instead of Hantei we should let each Kenshi take pot shots at each other. Heck, after awhile they let soccer players from opposing teams take thier best shot at the goal. Tennis has tie-breaker matches. Why not Kendo?

I'm sure the Kurukuru waza will be great! Knockdown by smackdown -- automatic two points and match :D

MKK

[Confound]

Do I need a kurukuru waza? Perhaps I do, just to see how ineffectual, slow and pathetic it truly is, then to give a full, detailled report to the whole forum. It seems to me that the volume of trash talk around here has gone up substantially, while the quality of debate has diminished. For some reason, this is correlated with the encroachment of Misterkurukuru and his little alias cronies. Why does it feel as though Kendou World is being invaded?

c

[misterkurukuru]

Hey Kawai sensei and Mr. Inouye! That dope thinks we are the same people! He doesn�ft even know that we all go to different dojos! Wahaha! I like how confound makes stuff up and then calls people liars, its pretty great don�ft you think? Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite Hypocrite!!!!!!! get my point?

[M.K. Kawai]

Confound,

If you're in the L.A. area come on down to Gardena. We're just 15 minutes south of LAX.

Gardena JCI
1964 West 162nd Street
Gardena, CA 90247

Nearest cross street is Van Ness and Redondo Beach Blvd.

Practice every Friday from 7:30 - 9 pm.
Atogeiko from 9 pm - whenever...

If I'm in Japan, where do you practice and what time?

If we ever meet, I'll tell you in person who is Mr. Kurukuru. Unless you meet Mr. Kurukuru first.

One more thing,... Shobuwari! Flag raised in favor of Mr. Kurukuru.

MKK

[Inouye02]

kawai sensei , i think it should be dumbfounded.

but anyways the challenged has been issued , Gardena Jci ..
so if you wanna see for yourselfs what the kurukuru waza is
about bring your butt confound , i guarantee you will not be walking away talking trash about mrkurukuru , or tenken , moowcow65, and all the others .including me , i will show you the real hiki tsuki from tsubazeriai...bet your A$$ on that ..

[Confound]

Should business ever take me to California, be assured that I will look you up. Should your affairs bring you to Sendai, my sempais and I will be pleased to practice with you, provided that you show more rei than you do on this forum.

c

[Inouye02]

dont you mean reigi , get it right ...you have alot of nerve, you come on here and start bashing on my friends ? like mister kurukuru says ..Hypocrite !!

[M.K. Kawai]

Confound,

My invite is genuine and with no strings attached. You yourself posted:

"However, I'd be very pleased to have any kind of keiko or shiai with any comers, mostly because I want advice afterwards."

If you truly believe that statement, then we have a 7 Dan sensei here who is more than glad to help someone out in Kendo. I learned a lot from him and some of the other sensei's there before they past away.

If you want to PM me the information that I asked for, that's fine with me and we'll keep that info between ourselves. Just keep in mind that there are many people from different dojos who come to Gardena JCI. If you're lucky, you might come on a night when we have some of the best in Southern Califonia there. Some of whom are posting in this forum.

Sendai is farther north of where my relatives live, but its an area of Japan that I'd like see more of. The way I see it, if I can do Kendo and visit a new place in Japan, that's great. And, I'd be more than glad to do you and your sempais, to practice Kendo in Japan is an opportunity that doesn't come very often. So how about returning the courtesy and send me your info? If I'm in the area, I'll stop on by.

MKK

[KhawMengLee]

dont you mean reigi , get it right ...you have alot of nerve, you come on here and start bashing on my friends ? like mister kurukuru says ..Hypocrite !!


Puhleez...spare us the disrespect crap...no one shows more of this than you guys.

Lets see...oh, geez we lost the North vs South tourney cuz of stupid judges...etcetc...everyone was to blame....it was all fixed....mr.kurukuru was robbed....tenken had easier opponents...etc.

sigh...we are real tired of the trash talk that spews from your posts. Yeah, yeah, the supposed kurukuru waza which didn't seem to get him anywhere in the last tourney etc. Look if you want to inflate your already zepplin otto von bismark ballon sized egos by spouting off your alledged "accomplishments" and wank, please...do it elsewhere.

Are any of you guys on a national team....hmmnn...no? well, then lay of the trash talk cuz after all that wank you still can't deliver the goods.

MENG

[misterkurukuru]

hahaha i didnt use kurukuru men at the tournament...i didnt think i had to use it, i was wrong. people do make mistakes! And yes some of us are on the national team, moocow and tenken are. Any other questions?????

[misterkurukuru]

oh and i would have been on the team but the coach picked someone that lost to me at the elimination in chicago. Is that my fault? nope...maybe i should have got 10 points on him. Actually he lost in our group, so he should have not even made it to the next step. trash talking with me shows all ofus that you too are a troll! thanks for joining the ranks boys! good job, good job!

[M.K. Kawai]

KhawMengLee,

It was never posted but the North South Tournament is a rivalry that's 43 years old. The rivalry is intense, but friendly. And, yes there is trash talk between the two regions. Everyone here got to see that. But, more importantly it's the one time during the year when one region can vie for bragging rights as to which side is better. Or more specifically, which team is better.

Unfortunately, this year North and South split the team tournaments 2 - 2. North took the Women's and 1-4 Dan, and the South took the Kyu and the 5+ Dan. So neither side can really brag about anything.

While South can say that they took many of the individual matches it's really the team matches that is the crown jewel for both sides. Afterall, it's supposed to composed of the best that both have to offer and it's the one thing that everyone remembers clear through the next tournament.

I guess you could say that there was frustration as a result of the split outcome, and you saw it posted here. I know from the South, they wanted to do better, but it didn't turn out that way. However, when the tournament moves down to the South next year I guarantee you there will be a strong desire from the South take the team matches.

In fact, this thread was started because of what happened at the tournament. The organizers decided to have the individual matches have only one encho before hantei. Many Kenshi that I talked to didn't think highly of that decision. But, from an organizer's POV, it made the tournament move really fast. The matches started at 10 am and ended around 5:30 pm. And, that's for about 250+ participants!

I'll let you decide whether the ends justified the means. As for the other stuff, that's an individual thing and I'm not gonna bother with it, except for what I had already posted. And I'll let the others speak for themselves.

It's a little long, but just keep in mind that the North South Tournament has a long history between two competitive rivals and trash talk is part of it. Neither side takes seriously.

Peace...

MKK

[mingshi]

dont you mean reigi , get it right ...
JAPANESE SWORD ARTS FAQ
(c) N. Genzwill

8.1 What virtues do the hakama pleats represent?

1: Jin (benevolence)
2: Gi (justice)
3: Rei (manners)
4: Chi (wisdom)
5: Shin (faithfulness, trustfulness)

Needless to say these are fundamental concept of Confucius.

[itazura]

Let us set the record straight on mrkurukuru if I am not mistaken.

Quote by mrkurukuru:

____________________

oh and i would have been on the team but the coach picked someone that lost to me at the elimination in chicago.

_______________________

No you should not be on the U.S. team. You were not first runner up even. That would be someone else not from California. The person put on the U.S. team at the last minute did not earn the position either.

On your previous comments about your finishes at the U.S. Tournament. Cleveland, 1996 Junior Youth division, runner up to Mr. Yang. Las Vegas, 1999, Senior Youth Division, runner up to Mr. Yang. Do we see a pattern here? 2002, SCKF Team, did not qualify. I believe this is why you were in Japan practicing with the college students. Steveston tournament, eliminated early.

Your constant crying about the shimpan is tiring. You should spend some time improving your own skills as a shimpan. And while you’re at it work on your manners as well. Your Sensei would not be pleased to know of your lack of manners. Your comments show a decided lack of understanding and development in kendo. You are referred to in Japan a 4th dan stick hitter. If your Sensei saw your incessant boasting followed by your constant whining he would be horribly embarrassed by you. Perhaps the boasting is meant as good fun amongst your peers, but the whining is inexcusable.

You should take a lesson from such great Kenshi and Sensei such as Matsuda, Hamamatsu, Onitsuka, Kaneshiro, Matsukubo, Hosokawa, Yoshimura. The list goes on and on.

BTW, If someone would like to practice with mrkurukuru I believe you can drop by Chuo. In L.A.

[misterkurukuru]

Itazura you are wrong! I had to decide a year in advanced if i was going to japan or US championships. Yang was going to go with us, but he Went for the Campionships instead. sooo that means that you are wrong...do some more homework bro!I dont think i should have been put on team, but they could have put hashimoto kunito on the team. he is one of the strongest people in the US and his brother and Hosokawa were picked over him. omi is good prob. better then me now, Spencer has XP,but kuni can beat the whole usa team! as for me if you think that the above mentioned guys are good poeple.....maybe you dont know some of them as well as i do. Matskubo is my senpai...hamamatsu should have not been in US championships because he is (i dont know if he is one now) not an American.
sure come to Chuo i dont care! hey Itazura, why dont you come PM your name and we will go at it. Shikai sensei knows that i am a big mouth, but this is America, what are you gonna do? Kaneshiro sensei used to kick my buttt all the time when i was little, so dont give me the you need to learn from these great people crap! i did, and i learned that just because you do kendo, it does not make you pefect, you will always be human and have human weaknesses.

[Danny Boy]

Step away from the keyboard, get a glass of water, take 10 deep breaths, got for a walk or do whatever you do when you need to chill out. And start acting with some dignity man.

[misterkurukuru]

Yea I should do that bro, but how can people take me so seriously when I quote Al Bundy? Come on
Have a sense of humor everyone! Its kool though, if someone wants to say mean things to me I don�ft mind. I am not going to go run off to my mommy as if my feelings were hurt. Chill yes; the good old chill pill would be good right about now. Anyone care for some? �gI just need more weed and more of that guy�h king of the hill (it�fs a cartoon from the US). Hank hill is dope and funky fresh.

[Paburo]

Originally posted by misterkurukuru
Yea I should do that bro, but how can people take me so seriouslymr. kurukuru.
i don't think many people here do take you seriously at all actually. this is the internet, and fellow forumers probably respect and consider more a 4kyuu inexperienced-yet-polite kenshi, than 4dan braggin whiner one.

in factual terms even, your contribution here has been limited to countless boring and repetitive posts, while other kenshi whilst being younger and lower in grade, have been posting links, interesting information, media and POV's.

maybe in the dojo and in trainings you might help someone with your beatings and 'incredible' kurukuruwaza, but in this forum you're being close to a lame annoyance for a lot of people.



Have a sense of humor everyone!yes, great sense of humour you have. have you considered joining a circus? i know a store with wigs and red ball noses for sale.


------------------------------------------------------------------

now back to the topic.

somehow i get the impression that after some minutes of encho, judges decide to 'lower' the exigency for ippon.
i.e. in the beggining they raise the flag for the first who makes 'perfect' ippon, but as minutes and minutes pass and opponents are very tied in level, they raise flag for the one that makes an 'ok' ippon.

i guess this is sort of polemic way to finish a long encho without recurring to hantei. does anyone else have this impression?

[M.K. Kawai]

Paburo,

You may see that happen at the finals, semi-finals and in some cases the quarter-finals. But, I believe most judges with regard to the finals would want to maintain a high standard in getting an ippon. However, what you have mentioned is something that I have personally seen in the past. Perhaps someone here can add if they have seen it recently.

I was more interested in the brackets that lead to the quarterfinals and beyond where you would see hantei. As a competing Kenshi I would not like to have my fate rest in the hands of three people. But, If I were a tournament organizer, anything that would get everyone out the door before dinner would be great.

I wonder if there is a way to improve upon the hantei or how it is used in tournaments that would be much more fairer or can a substitute be found for the hantei? Is it possible? :confused:

MKK

[samurai999]

Originally posted by misterkurukuru
hamamatsu should have not been in US championships because he is (i dont know if he is one now) not an American.


Whoa whoa whoa.. I was reading this thread through and had to stick up for my Palo Alto brutha (and sensei)...

Where do you get the idea that Shig shouldn't have been in the AUSKF champs because of his citizenship status? He was in the championships in 99 and in 96 as well as '02. If the laws of the land say so, then he wouldn't have been in it in addition to the other non-citizens at the tourney.

If you were in the '02 champs at USC, you should've seen who won the individuals (hatakeyama). Was he a US citizen? I think not. If so, he would've been an automatic selection to the team. That's why Yoshimura was selected to the US team although he didn't win. Uchiyama sensei from our side wasn't a US citizen either.

Also, just because you are a fancy, schmancy 4dan or 5dan or whatever rank you are doesn't mean you can come into a forum and start whining and complaining and boasting. If you are the player you say you are, then you should've been where you say you belong. On the US team, champion of the SCKF, AUSKF, or whatever. If you were the player (or playa) you say you are, then you should've beaten the guy you were facing in the team matches at N/S. But you are not the player you say you are and you didn't beat your opponent in the N/S team matches. I'm only a measly 1dan, and at least I know where my place on the kendo food chain is (unfortunately in the lower middle :D ) and I try to improve on it. Not complain about it.

To make a long story short, get your facts straight, and boast after you've accomplished something and not before.

My 0.02,
Tim

[itazura]

I have heard the story of Hamamatsu. He has done most of his kendo in the U.S. Came to the U.S in high school to Seattle and stayed. Apparently he was just an average guy. His kendo became strong here.

About this business of citizen/non-citizen in the U.S. Taikai has to do with the regs. Now we have a non-citizen win and a Californian second and it’s a big deal. Coincidence? Now there is a proposal to make it U.S. only. The guy that won has been in the U.S. since he was a kid.

As far as the U.S. team and who should be on it. It doesn’t matter who mrkurukuru thinks is strongest. A tryout was held and the order established. The Abe guy from Texas was next in line to be on the team and he got screwed. We seem to forget that there is kendo outside of California.

Well there is my 0.02.

[Neil Gendzwill]

IKF rules say national team members must hold citizenship in their country. Do the results of your nationals mean anything for team selection? In Canada the men's top two and women's top two automatically make the team so CKF rules require that particpants at nationals have citizenship.

[samurai999]

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill
IKF rules say national team members must hold citizenship in their country. Do the results of your nationals mean anything for team selection? In Canada the men's top two and women's top two automatically make the team so CKF rules require that particpants at nationals have citizenship.

I think on our side, the individuals champion (mens and womens) is the auto selection. But, since the champion wasn't a US citizen, the invite then got passed on to the next one (Yoshimura) who was..

I'm sure like shig, lots of green card holders do a lot of kendo over here for years and they are really good. But, unless they get naturalized, they can't be on the team.

Tim

[smith]

Kurukuru, I don't think you should worry too much about people taking you seriously. I know I certainly don't.

[misterkurukuru]

1.itazura chan say sorry for being a liar.
2. stop repeating me (when i say dont take me seriously, 20 people do not have to repeat it and think they are funny by saying "i dont take you seriously...duh...")
3. Kevin Abe would tell you that kuni Hashimoto is the man!
4. I dont know the hamamatsu story, thats why iwrote that i dont know if he is a citizen now...duhh un like you people I openly admit if i do not know the whole story....i dont LIE like some.
5. Thank you

[itazura]

mrkurukuru,

Let's see... I did say if I'm not mistaken....

Your powers of debate are inestimable. Next time try to read carefully and follow the point.

Consider your chain yanked. Or as you like to say, wahahahahaha.

gotcha

[moocow65]

whoa whoa hold on here. let me first say that i was at chicago, and i saw what happened to kurukuru. that sucked. and as for the 1999 nationals, all i can say that it was bull shit. i talked to a sensei whohated the idea of having non-us. citizens in the nationals, and he said that those people found loopholes or something to get around it. so hamamatsu makes it all the way into the finals, and who does he go against? nishimoto.
and of course the winner of nationals goes to the world championships. hamamatsu not being a us citizen or whatever can't make it on the team so who goes? nishimoto. who gets bumped out of the team? my friend, who beat nishimoto twice in the eliminations. and who did nishioto go against in the nationals? he went against people from the north who were already on the team, so of course they let him win. now granted, i would have done the same exact thing for my buddy, but the fact is is that if hamamatsu didn't participate in the tournament, then there would have been a better chance thatnishimoto wouldn't have won and my friend would have went to world's and not have lost in the round robin and actually make it into the real tournament. if you're not a US citizen then don't compete in nationals. i think japan would be pissed off if some non-japan citizen won their zen-nihon, but i thinkthey wouldn't allow that in the first place, and we don't have non-citizens
running for president as kurukuru already stated. we got a place for people like that in nationals. it's called the goodwill division. you don't see the guys from mexico competing in the men's division at nationals. and this bullshit tournament was one of the main reasons why my friend quit kendo, although he never said it
himself, but i know. they should have done one last match between my friend and nishimoto. if my friend lost, then well that's the way it goes, but to see someone get on the team whom you beat twice, and get cheated out of it
like that. that just sucks and it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. is my opinion a little biased? yeah a little, but the fact is is that he was better than nishimoto and he go to be put on team and my friend got kicked out. we're supposed to send our best guys to world's and my friend was next in line. AND my friend congratulated that fool for going to world's at las vegas and he just blew my friend off. didn't even say thanks or whatever.
what kind of "good person" is that? that's the side of the story that most people don't know. one more thing, they should do hantei for me only if 2 of the three sensei who are doing shinpan are my sensei. scratch that, they should only do hantei if they're gonna vote of me. but of course, winning isn't everything, it's just the good part. hahah.

[Antonin]

<rant>
Well, that's what happens when you give competion to large a place in your kendo. I think it is important to understand that shiai is a part of training, not the goal of training. Granted, losing is unpeasant. But if you learn nothing from you losing, then you've lost twice I think.
if your friend was doing kendo with the aim of winning championships, then it is maybe better for him he stoped: he was missing the whole point of the Martial Art to start with.
A
</rant>

[moocow65]

stop idealising will you? to have the honor to represent your country in the world championships and have it stripped away from you is terrible. but i guess you're so freaking honorable and an ideal kenshi, it wouldn't phase you a bit now would it?

[moocow65]

don't you insult my friend without knowing anything about him. his parents pretty much forced him to win tournaments and that's why he kicked butt. he wasn't doing kendo to win tournaments. like most of us guys who started when we were small, we were kinda forced into it, but we eventually grew to liking it. he wouldn't have cared if he didn't win the world championships. well you totally missed my point. it wasn't about having the chance to win the world championships as you ASSume it was. it was about getting cheated out of something that should have been rightfully yours. he didn't LOSE anything. he got CHEATED, did you even read my post??? what do you learn from getting cheated out of something? you learn to avoid getting cheated twice, and that's what he did. martial arts have been a part of our lives since we were kids. we know what it's all about, and this isn't it.

[William Honda]

Everyone,

I do not know Mr. Kurukuru as well as some, nor the history and background. However, I have met him and he has been nothing but polite and courteous to me. In the SCKF I am a nobody.

If we judge people solely by their posts 90% of us would be in the trash bin.

That has been my experience with Mr. Kurukuru, take it for what you like.

William

[aru-ma]

Originally posted by William Honda
I have met him and he has been nothing but polite and courteous to me
If we judge people solely by their posts 90% of us would be in the trash bin.
That has been my experience with Mr. Kurukuru, take it for what you like.


Mr. Honda,
I'm not trying to talk anyone down here but if he really is what you say he is then whats with the "smackdowns", "whoopasses", etc I find it hard to believe that he is like what you say he is with that sort of attitude even on posts, granted being sarcastic on-line is harder sine you cant hear voice tones.
I wouldnt say I'm the nicesest person in the world but since I've never met with most of you here, and probably wont, so I try to be more reserved (I admit I did put some "edgy" post a while back) rather than having a big mouth.

On a related note, it seems that almost, if not all, post with mk's(kurukuru) post in it has become rather sharp and turns into mk bashing (or someone else) and slides of the topic. What I'm trying to say is, keep the trash talking to those who understands you and if you dont like the post dont grill it down, just say why you dont like it and have a clean argument.

[William Honda]

Aru-ma

Okay, I'll stoop. How about this?

You know not what you speak of, yet you speak as if you do.

Your second paragraph makes no sense.

Your mother wears army boots.

How is that for a good argument.

Hantei is for sissys. There, I've kept on topic.

Hajimeeeeeee!

William

[Inouye02]

it's true what mr honda has said about kurukuru, and I would also like to that moocow , tenken are the same , they be younger then us , but they always treat us with respect, yes they may give us the smackdown in keiko but that makes all the more worthwhile, cause i will return the favor ( smiles ) in reality all these guys are very humble , you want help with your kendo , they always lend a helping hand ,

[slidercrank]

Moocow:

I don't know anything about the 1999 Nationals, but let's just look at it with the inside information you gave:

What's the problem here? Your friend beat someone in the eliminations (twice). The loser went on to the final and lost to a non-citizen, but still got on the national team based on the 2nd place finish.

What's the problem here? I honestly don't see any. Which one of us hasn't had it happened to us at a tournament? I had beat someone convincingly in the round-robins, but I didn't make it out of the round-robins, whereas my opponent did and eventually finished third in my division. Clearly, it was my problem for not being good enough to advance out of round-robins.

If you're saying that Nishimoto (whom I don't know) only got to the final because everyone he played from the first round (after the eliminations) to the semi-finals were guys who were already on the national team and purposely lost to let him advance, then you should blame the lack of integrity on the part of those players who let Nishimoto won, not Nishimoto or Hamamatsu.

Your friend didn't get on the national team, (as far as I can tell from the info given), because 1) he didn't win enough to get out of the eliminations; and 2) some players in the tournament played unethically. So what/whom do you choose to blame? A totally uninvolved person whose only fault you can pick is the color of his passport. If Hamamatus didn't participate, and someone else (say a citizen and who wasn't already on the team) got to the final and beat Nishimoto, then what? Both the winner and Nishimot would go on the team and your friend would still be out. The outcome would thus be the same: someone worse than your friend got on the national team. Who would you blame now?

I raised a point (originally raised by someone else) on this issue of non-US citizen in the US National in a reply to William Honda in the "US kendo level" thread, so I won't repeat it here.

[slidercrank]

On the other hand, I didn't know that the 1999 National was also won by a non-citizen (I only knew about the 2002). I suspect that given the level of rancor over this issue here, something will be done about it before 2005.

[M.K. Kawai]

Maybe we need to have everyone here do a hantei on this issue :D

With all the tangents on this thread, I've lost track of exactly where we are on the Hantei issue :(

So are people generally in favor of keeping the Hantei as is? Or do you think there can be some improvements to make it "fairer" or "better"? Or should we consider looking into an alternative to the Hantei?

MKK

[samurai999]

Originally posted by moocow65
whoa whoa hold on here. let me first say that i was at chicago, and i saw what happened to kurukuru. that sucked. and as for the 1999 nationals, all i can say that it was bull shit. i talked to a sensei whohated the idea of having non-us. citizens in the nationals, and he said that those people found loopholes or something to get around it. so hamamatsu makes it all the way into the finals, and who does he go against? nishimoto.
and of course the winner of nationals goes to the world championships. hamamatsu not being a us citizen or whatever can't make it on the team so who goes? nishimoto. who gets bumped out of the team? my friend, who beat nishimoto twice in the eliminations. and who did nishioto go against in the nationals? he went against people from the north who were already on the team, so of course they let him win. now granted, i would have done the same exact thing for my buddy, but the fact is is that if hamamatsu didn't participate in the tournament, then there would have been a better chance thatnishimoto wouldn't have won and my friend would have went to world's and not have lost in the round robin and actually make it into the real tournament. if you're not a US citizen then don't compete in nationals. i think japan would be pissed off if some non-japan citizen won their zen-nihon, but i thinkthey wouldn't allow that in the first place, and we don't have non-citizens
running for president as kurukuru already stated. we got a place for people like that in nationals. it's called the goodwill division. you don't see the guys from mexico competing in the men's division at nationals. and this bullshit tournament was one of the main reasons why my friend quit kendo, although he never said it
himself, but i know.

Ok.. I'll give into the fact that I only know kurukuru the internet personality and not kurukuru the kenshi. So, I'll retract on my personality slam. Gomen!

But when I lose, I always look at myself first as the main reason for losing, then somebody else. Not the other way around. No matter who I lose to or what some judge didn't see, I must've done something to make the judge think that the opponent got a point on me.

Some things from your post..

1.) I wasn't at the US trials at Chicago so I don't know what happened.. how did mrkurukuru get screwed?

2.) I understand the non-citizen perspective on the US Champs, but what if some foreigner or permanent resident that has been in the US for 5yrs (as an example) gets sworn in, competes in the tourney and wins?.. Then what? He/she is considered a permanent US citizen like the rest of us who were born here. They should then be able to have a spot according to IKF rules, right? I think the presidency can be decided like that too.

3.) I know they must've done some trial for the US team that participated in Santa Clara in 2000. Did your friend get screwed at those trials too?

4.) How do you know that the NCKF opponent(s) let Nishimoto win? For all I (and you) know, they might have been competeing like they always do. Who did Nishimoto go through in the single elim rounds to get to the finals? If Nishimoto (a person who supposedly didn't deserve to win) won against those people, then what are those other people that he beat? Scrubs? Sticks in the mud?

5.) Your friend quit kendo mainly because he got eliminated in the round robin? If so, isn't he forgetting the big picture of why he's doing kendo and what for? I got beaten at the US champs in 2002 in the first round of goodwill. They screwed up my match-up and let me wait on the court stewing for 20min while they cycled through 2 competitors from the PNKF!!!! I then lost. I didn't like the way the match was conducted or the way it turned out but I had to move on. Why quit because of that? Why base all your frustration on that? It's only one match.

Sorry about making this post so long. But on hantei? I'm still against. :D :D :D

Tim

[M.K. Kawai]

Do we have anyone who has helped organize and run a tournament want to offer a few thoughts about hantei?

MKK

[misterkurukuru]

lets just say i have video of a judge that was behind me calling off a point that he couldnt see when the judge that was right infront of me raised his flag...the third judge couldnt see the point so he crossed his flags(which was the right call...if the otehr judge did the "cant see" call i would have won). I should have got more points, i know that is my fault. In the end it is my fault that i lost, but the judges did have a big part in me not being US champ.

[moocow65]

okay i guess some of you guys didn't get it clearly. we had the eliminations right? my friend made it into the top ten. he was in the 10th spot. he was ON the team. the only way he would get bumped off the team was if the person who won the nationals who wasn't already on the team (which seems highly unlikely so we all thought it was a done deal). the round robin stuff was what happened at the world championships.. ahh forget that part. he was the 10th and final spot on the team. got bumped off by someone he beat in the eliminations twice (NOT THE US CHAMPIONSHIPS). and slidercrank this particular incident has not happened to ANYONE except for him. and be real guys, wouldn't you let your buddy win if you were already going to world's, who cares if you don't win nationals? i would have done the same. hamamatsu is a really strong kendoka, i take nothing away from him, but US championships should be for US citizens. hope you guys now understand how messed up it was now.

[Chusan]

@moocow65: what exactly is the relation between your posting and the topic ´hantei` ?

[mingshi]

Originally posted by William Honda
I do not know Mr. Kurukuru as well as some, nor the history and background. However, I have met him and he has been nothing but polite and courteous to me

Yeah right. I wish people who have met Confound in person would have said the same thing.

Welcome to the Internet -- your heart of darkness.

[misterkurukuru]

ummm..at the S.S. that we have in the SCKF(isnt there one comming up at the police academy?) we do not do any hantei practice. I think thats what scares me the most about hantei. We dont even practice judging it, and then we are expected to do it a shiais. I think hantei gives too much power to the judges...and like my old thread said...there afre a lot of judges that shouldnt judge! i think i will bring this poitn up at the next S.S.(i like it when the dodgers get a hit and you can hear the stadium exploed from the academy parking lot...its so freaken awesome!)

[Inouye02]

the S.S has been cancelled from May 18 , the new date is June 7

[M.K. Kawai]

<sigh> Man, and I had May 18th booked for that seminar. Back to the dayplanner... again :rolleyes:

For those who are not going to be at the Shimpan Seminar, are there any questions about Hantei that you would like to know?

MKK

[moocow65]

chusan, as you may have not noticed, all threads in this entire forum go off topic after the post. and i already posted my opinions about hantei twice. which brings me to this: why do so many people tell kurukuru to stop being disrespectul and to stopinsulting everyone, when everyone else in this forum does the same thing? i seemed to have been insulted by chusan right now, and i seemed to have gotten bashed by itazura(although he told me it was not directed at me) in another thread. and i did nothing to provoke them.

[Inouye02]

moocow , missed you today at cypress, see you next time ?

[M.K. Kawai]

I missed you at Park sensei's place Moocow. Now remind me as to how I became the designated expert on Kendo in the US :rolleyes:

You too Inouye, I don't seem to remember an election for this, man :confused:

And, don't tell me there was a hantei against me on this either :D

MKK

[M.K. Kawai]

I just want to make sure that the Shimpan Seminar is STILL at Cypress and on the 8th? That it hasn't moved.

Right?

MKK

[Inouye02]

yes it is still at cypress dojo

[M.K. Kawai]

Good :) I'm getting sick and tired of all these changes at the last minute. It's really playing havoc on my schedule :mad:

MKK

[KENSHIN]

Originally posted by Confound
It seems to me that the volume of trash talk around here has gone up substantially, while the quality of debate has diminished. For some reason, this is correlated with the encroachment of Misterkurukuru and his little alias cronies. Why does it feel as though Kendou World is being invaded?

c

Hehe…its funny you should say that, I have been away from the forums for a very long time and when I recently came back, it was the first thing that came to mind, I was amazed at how low the forum has gone in terms of quality discussion. It seems there is far too much flaming going on than any real on-topic talk. I am not pointing the finger at anyone because I have to admit I have joined in too with some of these kiddie discussions. Also it seems that the forum is no longer moderated, when I was here there was always moderating, if there was something that went too far Hamish or Alex would put a stop to it, but now it seems they are no longer moderating it. Does anyone know if they are away or something?

[KhawMengLee]

Yeah, I miss the good ole' days...especially ragging you Mr Gokiburi;)

ps. I saw yer cousin wandering around my pub trying to crawl in my beer...:eek:evil cockroaches

[KENSHIN]

You leave my sweet little cousin alone, or I’ll send daddy after you, baboon boy. :D

[Kiki]

Originally posted by M.K. Kawai
<sigh> For those who are not going to be at the Shinpan Seminar, are there any questions about Hantei that you would like to know?
MKK

Do you all discuss hantei? For example is the consensus to either avoid it or not. If so, does everyone agree to follow article 7, Item 5 of the Regulations? I am just getting the impression here, assuming that a lot of you are Shinpan, that there is room for personal preference. I don’t mean favoritism but preference for or against hantei thus judging toward that end.

Having refereed several other sports I can only imagine how hard it is to judge kendo. I am glad there are at least 3. Some people may not have much experience yet but this doesn’t mean they are not trying really hard. It wouldn’t surprise me if very experienced Shinpan sometimes get caught up in the emotion of a match. I hope the rookie Shinpan get lots of practice at the SS. It may be unpopular to stick up for refs in general but I really feel 99%...well 98% are impartial. Even when I lost a point on a “bad” call I had to think about how I can improve so as not to be caught in the position where a missed point looks like a real one.

It’s always nice to have a clear winner but I am not against having hantei.