Fancy Do - WHY do people not like them...?

[The great I AM]

So, having just read yet another thread with people saying this or that about the colours of one's do plate other than black, I started thinking about why you have to be really good to have one not black. Not just being a target or whatever, but where does this whole idea come from of being arrogant if you have a do that is not black and you're not a hanshi kyudan.

Its an opinion that is very common not just here but throughout the kendo world. I've never seen or heard a real explanation of the origin's of this sentiment, and people often say things like "unless you are of a really high grade you shouldn't do it" despite numerous (and I mean that in the terms of many many many) examples to the contrary. And even then the opinion stays with these people because they feel they are right in some way that the people using the coloured do are not. But why?

Where do these thoughts, ideas, sentiments, what ever, come from? How did this idea spring up? After all in older kendo pics (like very old) they had the raw bamboo, not lacquered plastic, showing. That to me suggests its a relatively new concept, so it must come from somewhere......

Any thoughts anyone?

[Kingofmyrrh]

My main reason for being anti-funky do is just that i think that black looks better. I don't mean in a kind of "let your kendo do the talking" way, just in purely aesthetic terms. A shiny black do dai against some toned down mune stitching is definitely the way forward as far as I'm concerned.
You say that people used to have plain bamboo, and the reason may start from that. You could get black do back then easily enough, but it was leather that was cured and then lacquered. Pretty expensive stuff. Anything more fancy, such as wood patterns, shark skin or customised designs would have cost more than I care to think about. These days we can make a sheet of plastic look like anything we want, so buying a fancy-looking do doesn't necessarily represent a large financial investment, but back when it did then it seems believable that would be laughed at for buying a do that was representative of something greater than their kendo abilities. RBSO indeed...

[nodachi]

I bet a lot of it comes from the cultural concept of "the nail that sticks out gets hammered down." Conformity is a part of the culture. It is changing in urban areas where there are all sorts of styles and such, but even people who have an unusual style seem to have tons of other people who like that same exact style that even the "freaks" who are trying not to conform still seem to conform within their own group. Hard to describe unless you have seen it for yourself here.

So in summary, if you are going to not conform, you damn well better be good enough so that your skills make people not be in a position to tell you you are doing something nonconforming and non traditional. Sensei can wear the fancy dou because few people rank above him to chastise his non conformity. Lower ranking people resisting this urge to conform and getting funky dou may seem a little egotistical standing out in style when they don't stand out in their ability. It's like the fancy idol people on TV. Your normal neighborhood friend dressing all freaky is just wierd, but the pop star idol singer on TV can be freaky because it's style because they are an artist and they make the big bucks...

Just one random string of thoughts, but very possibly wrong... I welcome all other cultural viewpoints, but this is one possibility from an outsider observing Japanese culture...

[don don]

So, having just read yet another thread with people saying this or that about the colours of one's do plate other than black, I started thinking about why you have to be really good to have one not black. Not just being a target or whatever, but where does this whole idea come from of being arrogant if you have a do that is not black and you're not a hanshi kyudan.

Its an opinion that is very common not just here but throughout the kendo world. I've never seen or heard a real explanation of the origin's of this sentiment, and people often say things like "unless you are of a really high grade you shouldn't do it" despite numerous (and I mean that in the terms of many many many) examples to the contrary. And even then the opinion stays with these people because they feel they are right in some way that the people using the coloured do are not. But why?

Where do these thoughts, ideas, sentiments, what ever, come from? How did this idea spring up? After all in older kendo pics (like very old) they had the raw bamboo, not lacquered plastic, showing. That to me suggests its a relatively new concept, so it must come from somewhere......

Any thoughts anyone?


I think it might be a humility thing...?

[Neil Gendzwill]

I don't think it's confined to kendo. I think there's a general attitude of you'd better be able to walk the walk if you talk the talk, wherever you go. When you see a beginner skierwith a $1000 one-piece Goretex suit and racing skis snowplow down the bunny hill, the first thought is not "good for him, he's really enthusiastic and bought the best stuff for his new sport". Or at least, not unless you're much more charitable than I.

[JasonC]

I expects it's for much the same reason that almost everyone wears dark blue gi and hakama, and doesn't wear coloured belts. Kendo, it seems to me, is one of the more conservative martial arts, (which I think is putting it lightly!). Which is fine by me.

ta

[The great I AM]

This whole thing issue is very interesting to me indeed! Just reading these first responses has already provided a few different takes on it.

I do often wonder why people have this thing against flash do. Weather it be "subtle looks better", or "beginners don't need that stuff" or "the nail that sticks out gets hit hardest", there is quite a lot of negative feeling towards users of flash gear.

I wonder if the standard colour of do had been bright red with the rest as it is now, would people look on those with a black do as flash gits? And still why SHOULD it matter?

At any rate, keep it coming please. Interesting already!

[The great I AM]

Sorry for the double post here, forgot to do this in the previous one


I don't think it's confined to kendo. I think there's a general attitude of you'd better be able to walk the walk if you talk the talk, wherever you go. When you see a beginner skierwith a $1000 one-piece Goretex suit and racing skis snowplow down the bunny hill, the first thought is not "good for him, he's really enthusiastic and bought the best stuff for his new sport". Or at least, not unless you're much more charitable than I.

I hope you'll permit me to take this one a little further Neil, but what is about having a coloured do that makes it "talking the talk"? I completely understand it, having seen it time and time again in clubs. You see someone come in with something not black, and someone says to his mate "lets kick his arse". But why? Firstly, why should someone be trying to prove a point by the colour of their dou, and why would you want to thrash someone for having a coloured do?

Not an attack on what you wrote, just an expansion on the topic a little and my own thoughts.

[Neil Gendzwill]

It's a chicken and egg problem, Gibbo. The culture of kendo is such that when you put on a coloured doh, you're advertising that your kendo is strong, or at least that you want to stick out from the crowd. As soon as you're sticking out from the crowd, people take a more critical look at your kendo. Personally, as I've said before, I don't have a problem with it, people can wear what they like and I don't try to beat them up or anything. But all this arguing about the point doesn't change the culture of kendo. "But, but, that shouldn't be the way it is" doesn't change the way it is.

Aesthetically, I just like the subtlety of distinguishing yourself through small details and maybe higher quality, rather than flash. I think if the culture ever changes and I'm looking at a rainbow-coloured lineup, something valuable will have been lost.

[mark]

Although I agree with Neil's "flashiness factor", I also witness that it is much more than that. In kendo we value the traditional. Just think our reaction to carbon shinai's, plastic menganes, velcro hakamas, high tech fibers in keikogis, sorbotane in kote, removable kote palms, shoes, replacing men himo with velcro and elastics, or even wearing a undershirt to wick the sweat. Is is a Japaneese cultural thing, a link to kendos past, or something else?

[mingshi]

I wonder if the standard colour of do had been bright red with the rest as it is now, would people look on those with a black do as flash gits? And still why SHOULD it matter?
This is also along my thought. When everybody uses different do colour, no one really has the bling bling.

People need to keep an open mind and see more stuff.:-
http://www.nishinippon.co.jp/jigyou/kg/2005kg/photo/tama/27/01/01.jpg
http://www.nishinippon.co.jp/jigyou/kg/2005kg/photo/tama/24/c.html

[The great I AM]

But all this arguing about the point doesn't change the culture of kendo. "But, but, that shouldn't be the way it is" doesn't change the way it is.

Not necessarily arguing the point, but more interested in the why's and wherefore's of the point.

This sort of thing has been an interesting subject to me ever since ordering my first set of armour and being told "you're not good enough for a coloured do". Nowadays I don't give a monkeys what people think of the colour of my armour, but its good readin' to see the origins and motivations of the people involved and their point of view.

Gibble-ai-gibble-ai-o

[KhawMengLee]

I think we need to seperate this between flashy gear and expensive gear.

1) If a beginner wears a colourfull dou...good for him. I mean why not? Does it make him a better kendoka? No. This goes both ways, he should not feel it makes him better and neither should others judge him by that too(The old proverb of not judging a book by its cover comes to mind).

We are, after all, individuals.

I seriously son't see the beef with having colourful dou.


2) Now on the other hand...expensive gear means a big investment. I suppose people expect the same amount of effort in one's kendo in relation to the gear. I mean if you fork out $10,000 bucks for a bogu. You better be shit hot into kendo.

But once again, I don't see the right to gripe...I mean so what if he bought a $10G bogu...it's not like its in rare supply...and if you could afford it, you'd buy it too.

I remember some guy turning up with a same dou at the last touney I was at. He was going for his nidan. When I saw it I wasn't thinking 'oh., he shouldn't wear that!" I was more "You Bastard! I want one too!"

Instead of thinking that the kyu grade guy with the 1bu hand stitched bogu should be like a kendo god...I think one should concentrate more on one's own kendo.

[Rurouni Kenshin]

I do often wonder why people have this thing against flash do. Weather it be "subtle looks better", or "beginners don't need that stuff" or "the nail that sticks out gets hit hardest", there is quite a lot of negative feeling towards users of flash gear.


I find "beginners don't need that stuff" a pretty strange comment as a colored yamato do is ussually way cheaper than a black bamboo do for example.
Personally I dont fancy all the flashy colored do but there are some altered colored designs I do like. My guess is its about individual personalisation. Some ppl have names or whatever on hakama and gi, or non-standard shinai (what IS a standard shinai anyway). Do the ppl that think a do should be black also say use a cheap shinai? Or is an oval handle dobari considered a no-no for beginners? What about the ppl that do Iaido and personalize their iaito - it is very common and no one in my dojo looks at you in a strange way. Why is it so different in kendo? Ancient samurai had their custom armor aswell.......but I guess back then skill had more to do with it.

Nowadays I feel like most ppl are like a bunch of sheep and follow the leader; people that are different are frowned upon and 'outcasted' by the powers that be. Yet the sheep claim they are all special and different and individual etc.......
In the end there are many reasons for not liking colored do and another many reasons for getting one. Some ppl just simply can afford the best and buy it like they always do, some ppl wanna match colors all around their bogu, others just want to stand out or show off. SOme ppl just feel better when they think they look nice and thats a psychological factor that can possibly improve their game; not only in kendo.

[KhawMengLee]

This is also along my thought. When everybody uses different do colour, no one really has the bling bling.

People need to keep an open mind and see more stuff.:-
http://www.nishinippon.co.jp/jigyou/kg/2005kg/photo/tama/27/01/01.jpg
http://www.nishinippon.co.jp/jigyou/kg/2005kg/photo/tama/24/c.html

Ooooo! there's video too!

OMG! I'm blind! Its like a moving sea of whitewash! That's some crazy keiko going on there!

[LNGUYEN]

In the old time, color was used to distinguish ranking people in the bureau course. The brighter the color, the higher you rank and bright gold yellow is for the emperor. When a person saw a flashy Samurai or a soldier, his alertness tended to rise up and he would fight harder, so if a flashy samurai was not real good, he wouldn't survive very long. If someone just wore a piece of rag and suprise the enemy, now that was a real suprise.

[KhawMengLee]

In the old time, color was used to distinguish ranking people in the bureau course. The brighter the color, the higher you rank and bright gold yellow is for the emperor. When a person saw a flashy Samurai or a soldier, his alertness tended to rise up and he would fight harder, so if a flashy samurai was not real good, he wouldn't survive very long. If someone just wore a piece of rag and suprise the enemy, now that was a real suprise.

Bwaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahaahaaaa!

Yeah, I bet the Yoshioka's were saying, "That Musashi guy! Him wear K-mart blue light special hakama...and he smell like unwashed baboon who share bed with billy goat! He super crap, I kill him now with one cut to theaaaaaarrgh!"

[Fonsz]

This is also along my thought. When everybody uses different do colour, no one really has the bling bling.

People need to keep an open mind and see more stuff.:-
http://www.nishinippon.co.jp/jigyou/kg/2005kg/photo/tama/27/01/01.jpg
http://www.nishinippon.co.jp/jigyou/kg/2005kg/photo/tama/24/c.html
Bloody hell what was that? I just took a look at a few movies and it was mind boggling. All hot girls in bogu and in the end some "Lord of the Rings" like battlefield. This is heaven is it? If it is then I'll convert to that religion right now.
To get back to the topic I think that the footage and stills shown in the links proves that girls/women can get away with things that guys can't. In a fashion sense I mean. The same goes for bogu, people with nice colored do's stick out and Kendo as we know it is very conservative, only the gods and godlike can stick out. Why? Because they are gods and godlike. To discern them from the common folk. What would happen if all the common folk dress up like gods? The universe would not be in order. But hey, if you like colors and you can afford it go for it, but keep in mind that you are disturbing the universe.

[Mugu]

Kendo overall is pretty darn interesting. Such as it is okay to drink and kendo together, but it's not okay to wear a colorful Do.

I don't know if we're complicating things than it should be. Kendo is arguably mostly based on Buddhaism/Shintoism believes, which those religions believe in simplicity. And part of Kendo is its philosophy that what makes it interesting. Like many Hachidan continously puruse the philosophy of Kendo. If you don't know what I am talking about such as the philosophy of many monks to live their lives as simple as possible. Going back on this quote again by Daruma (is it the same? Dat Moor in Cantonese), "The one who speaks does not know. The one who knows does not speak." As Mingshi pointed out Asian culture is more of "being humble" comparing to the Western more of "speak your mind". Don't quote me or anything, that's how I was raised as a Taoist/Buddhist.

Also don't forget Black Do is easier to fix the scratch when you got scratched. Just a black marker and it's fixed unlike other colors...

[LNGUYEN]

Bwaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahaahaaaa!

Yeah, I bet the Yoshioka's were saying, "That Musashi guy! Him wear K-mart blue light special hakama...and he smell like unwashed baboon who share bed with billy goat! He super crap, I kill him now with one cut to theaaaaaarrgh!"


See, you just proved my point. He won every fight didn't he? Let me ask another question. On the street when you see two stranger, one in the suit and one in the rag, who do you think would be the beggar even though none of them asking for money.

[KhawMengLee]

Kendo overall is pretty darn interesting. Such as it is okay to drink and kendo together, but it's not okay to wear a colorful Do.

I don't know if we're complicating things than it should be. Kendo is arguably mostly based on Buddhaism/Shintoism believes, which those religions believe in simplicity. If you don't know what I am talking about such as a lot of monks don't eat meat, they live their lives as simple as possible. Going back on this quote again by Daruma (is it the same? Dat Moor in Cantonese), "The one who speaks does not know. The one who knows does not speak." As Mingshi pointed out Asian culture is more of "being humble" comparing to the Western more of "speak your mind". Don't quote me or anything, that's how I was raised as a Taoist/Buddhist.


hehehe...dude, buddha also pointed out that one cannot live life on either end of the extremes. Life is about balance...like fine lute...if the strings are too slack, no sound issues...if the strings are to tight, they will snap...only in perfect equilibrium does the sweet note sound.

So along with the humble, us flashy show offs retain the balance...:P

As for 'being humble', hahaha, take a walk down to causeway bay and you'll see some funky humble people...hahaha I love Honkies(ppl from Hong Kong).

[Neil Gendzwill]

Kendo overall is pretty darn interesting. Such as it is okay to drink and kendo together, but it's not okay to wear a colorful Do.
That's overstating things quite a bit. Drinking is OK after kendo, I don't know anyone that drinks during kendo. There's no rule against wearing a colourful doh. Many people do. If you want to wear one, go ahead. Just be prepared for a raised eyebrow or two. It probably won't be an issue.

[Mugu]

hehehe...dude, buddha also pointed out that one cannot live life on either end of the extremes. Life is about balance...like fine lute...if the strings are too slack, no sound issues...if the strings are to tight, they will snap...only in perfect equilibrium does the sweet note sound.

So along with the humble, us flashy show offs retain the balance...:P

As for 'being humble', hahaha, take a walk down to causeway bay and you'll see some funky humble people...hahaha I love Honkies(ppl from Hong Kong).

ahahah I agree. Like anyone will gives a rat about philosophy anyways :p I, myself want a red Do. I have nothing against buying a flashier Do. Though when I think about maintainance. I'm a practical person, I like to think of how I want fix the scratch if I scratched it in the future :p I don't know how hong kong looks like since I never been there. But seeing too many hong kong movies I kinda know what you meant, hehe

[Ignatz]

Aesthetically, I just like the subtlety of distinguishing yourself through small details and maybe higher quality, rather than flash. I think if the culture ever changes and I'm looking at a rainbow-coloured lineup, something valuable will have been lost.

I'm with you here. If you look at the expensive stuff you will see that it is often very plain, the money goes into the quality. When you get to sharkskin or cherry blossom do and you are looking at $10,000 the mune is very often rather plain.

Most people can't afford this kind of stuff until they are rather old (older than me even) and have already made a lifetime committment to kendo. When we are talking about flashy equipment it is usually artificial, kind of like aluminium siding, that looks like something else.

I can understand why a beginner might want the flash but the bottom line is that it is fake so why spend your money on it? Buy some really good kote and your wrists will thank you.

[KhawMengLee]

See, you just proved my point. He won every fight didn't he? Let me ask another question. On the street when you see two stranger, one in the suit and one in the rag, who do you think would be the beggar even though none of them asking for money.

Dude, I'd be running up to the ragman and going into rei! "Musashi sensei!!!"

hahahahahaa

[LNGUYEN]

Yep, being of equilibrium by wearing flashy do. Since you are in between, the lower will attack (verbally) you because you are closer to them than the top notches, and the top notches will attack (verbally) you too because you look better than them. Now you are facing two ends of the rope.

[Mugu]

That's overstating things quite a bit. Drinking is OK after kendo, I don't know anyone that drinks during kendo. There's no rule against wearing a colourful doh. Many people do. If you want to wear one, go ahead. Just be prepared for a raised eyebrow or two. It probably won't be an issue.

Yes, I should've said after Kendo :) It's kinda hard to drink and Kendo together anyways. Such as you need to get a really long straw poking through the Megane and so forth :p

[KhawMengLee]

Yep, being of equilibrium by wearing flashy do. Since you are in between, the lower will attack (verbally) you because you are closer to them than the top notches, and the top notches will attack (verbally) you too because you look better than them. Now you are facing two ends of the rope.

I will defeat them all with my Super Pinku Hello Kitty dou! Maaaaaan, if they had one of those(pink hello kitty dou) I'd snap it up in a flash!

[The great I AM]

I'm with you here. If you look at the expensive stuff you will see that it is often very plain, the money goes into the quality. When you get to sharkskin or cherry blossom do and you are looking at $10,000 the mune is very often rather plain.

Most people can't afford this kind of stuff until they are rather old (older than me even) and have already made a lifetime committment to kendo. When we are talking about flashy equipment it is usually artificial, kind of like aluminium siding, that looks like something else.

I can understand why a beginner might want the flash but the bottom line is that it is fake so why spend your money on it? Buy some really good kote and your wrists will thank you.

I think thats a little over board personally. Whilst a lot of the stuff is expensive and plain, you do get the odd flash bit. For instance you can get a bloody good "senkou" mune for some bucks, and have it customised to show whatever pattern you want. Expensive and Flash. There you go. At the sort of price you mention, everything is customizable anyway, so if as you say the stuff we see is aimed at the older richer end of the market, well old people tend not to opt for flash at the end of the day anyway, so the stuff you see, either used by old men or in ads, going by your way of thinking, will never be flash.

And saying its all pretty much fake is, in my opinion anyway, complete nonsense and a bit too general for me. The mune on my dou with the cool tsubushi pattern certainly isn't fake (at least I hope not otherwise I never trust Michael Komoto again! But I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now....:p ), and is brilliantly made, lightwieght and looks flash enough for me too.

And what exactly is "fake" armour? I could understand replica same dou dai being called fake, but not sure what you mean otherwise?

[Mugu]

I will defeat them all with my Super Pinku Hello Kitty dou! Maaaaaan, if they had one of those(pink hello kitty dou) I'd snap it up in a flash!
Just for you (http://kendo-dojo.org/mis/kitty_do.jpg), Meng

[KhawMengLee]

Just for you (http://kendo-dojo.org/mis/kitty_do.jpg), Meng

I just get a blank screen...my hope are quashed.

[shred_lord]

Just for you (http://kendo-dojo.org/mis/kitty_do.jpg), Meng Oh man I want one of those! :)

[Mugu]

I just get a blank screen...my hope are quashed.

Tis is fixed :p

Soon, I'll make the pink mune. For now, you only get Hello Kitty :p At least I give you two choices, hehehehehe

[KhawMengLee]

Holy Crap! I see 'em...want kitty dou!

[Munnin]

At one time I believed that people should learn to expresses them selves and allow their personal taste to run free and unfettered by the stogy robots of the huddled masses. I now realize that most people given only minimal permission to step out side the normal bounds demonstrate a sense of proportion, color, style that makes one long for a return to the sumptuary laws of kings.

Let this thread serve as a warning, there but for stogy task masters of Kendo go I:
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31864&page=1&pp=15

[Paikea]

Just for you (http://kendo-dojo.org/mis/kitty_do.jpg), MengYes, Dr. H. (a lurker :))...I've seen these and have one on order for you. DC knows who...

[MikeW]

I think a lot of us that see a 'flashy' do wonder why someone would opt for that. Some think it is inappropriate, others just think it's silly, and some think 'wow, thats cool'. Me, I usually don't really care what others look like as long as they are sincere in their kendo and courteous. For myself however I would not buy a flashy do not because I worry what others think about me, but because I wish to remain humble to myself. I don't want to be flashy in my kendo appearance, just to try my best to be good in my performance. I would rather have people look at the quality of my kendo and not my appearance.

[DCPan]

Yes, Dr. H. (a lurker :))...I've seen these and have one on order for you. DC knows who...

If you are referring to the person that I'm thinking of, she has a Hello Kitty Kamon on her doh...not Hello Kitty plastered across her doh though. :D


This is also along my thought. When everybody uses different do colour, no one really has the bling bling.

People need to keep an open mind and see more stuff.:-
http://www.nishinippon.co.jp/jigyou/kg/2005kg/photo/tama/27/01/01.jpg
http://www.nishinippon.co.jp/jigyou/kg/2005kg/photo/tama/24/c.html

Yes and no. They are conforming because they are wearing their school colors. The whole team is wearing the same doh.

So, they are conforming by being the team identity...which is still somewhat different from people wearing whatever color they want.

I think having a variety of fiber doh colors really made it not as big of a deal as before when having a bunch of colors meant you sunk a lot of money into appearances rather function.

I have a non-black doh because when I got my current set, the bogu-shop owner said as a freebie, I could pick any color I want. I should have caught the warning sign and read it as "I'm charging you an arm and a leg, so I might as well make you happy".

As for why I think non-black doh is such a stigma, I think it implies things about where your priorities are...regardless of whether those implications are true or not. That doesn't mean I agree with it, mind you.

FWIW.

[Paikea]

If you are referring to the person that I'm thinking of, she has a Hello Kitty Kamon on her doh...not Hello Kitty plastered across her doh though. :D
She's due for an upgrade...

[DCPan]

She's due for an upgrade...

Last I heard, she's going for that hot-pink hakama for kenbu on the Mitsuboshi catalog...we are daring her to wear it for shinza.... :D

[samurai999]

Just for you (http://kendo-dojo.org/mis/kitty_do.jpg), Meng


OMG.... WHY? (though it looks photochopped on..)

Tim

[Mugu]

OMG.... WHY? (though it looks photochopped on..)

Tim

Because it is photochopped on, lol

[DCPan]

OMG.... WHY? (though it looks photochopped on..)

Tim

Hello Kitty Ferrari Testarossa
http://paultan.org/archives/2005/09/18/hello-kitty-daihatsu-cars/

[JByrd]

I bet a lot of it comes from the cultural concept of "the nail that sticks out gets hammered down.".

That was my first thought, as well. The only universally acceptable way to stand out is by being better than everyone else.

It is hard to specify the point at which the tradition becomes violated in a meaningful way. If a blue do is OK, why not a red, white, and blue star-spangled hakama, or Hello Kitty dou? How about flashing LED lights?

To me, the more important question is a personal one: Why do people feel a need to stand out from others, and on what basis do they choose to distinguish themselves from others? My do is black because most everyone else's is black, and to me, the color of my do is a meaningless way to distinguish myself from others.

[DCPan]

To me, the more important question is a personal one: Why do people feel a need to stand out from others,

I challenge that interpretation (just a friendly one!)

Why must having a non-black doh be interpreted as a need to stand out?

That's the line that I'm not drawing.

You'll notice in a similar vein, those iai-folks that also practice kendo are more adverse to non-black koshirae than pure iai people.

[KhawMengLee]

To me, the more important question is a personal one: Why do people feel a need to stand out from others, and on what basis do they choose to distinguish themselves from others?

Because immortality is what we all want ;) heck, stand out in kendo with your ability sure...but if one must do it, do it with style my dear...hahaha

Look a General Patton, outspoken, flamboyant and a damn near excellent tactician...immortal not only for his talents but his image as well.

[Anime12478]

There's just the whole cultural difference thing there. When I was brought up, I was always told to be a leader instead of a follower and do your best to stand out from the crowd. That talk still goes on after grade school since people demand leadership instead of just sitting around and following what everyone else does.

In the martial arts, it is true that it isn't best to show off by getting the most expensive and flashy equipment unless you either plan on striving to improve or have already been doing it for a while, but even then it has its limits. Buying a blue, red, or gold do really doesn't count as too flashy to me. Does it set yourself apart? Yes. But at least it isn't the Hello Kitty do or something with a weird pattern on it. It's alright to get something a little flashy as a small gift to yourself to commemorate the committment you made, but if you expect to get attention, then you will get it but it would most likely be the wrong kind of attention.

If the whole purpose of getting a different colored do is to set yourself appart, then I suggest you try to show yourself by your abilities. When we remember most people, we don't think about the things they owned, we think about the things that they did.

[Paikea]

Look at General Patton, outspoken, flamboyant and a damn near excellent tactician...immortal not only for his talents but his image as well.Ah, an excellent example. However, before he was General Patton, he was Cadet Patton, just another highly-conformant grey uniform in the lineup, flunking his first year at West Point.

[Paikea]

You'll notice in a similar vein, those iai-folks that also practice kendo are more adverse to non-black koshirae than pure iai people.It's weird how innately attractive and appropriate that black koshirae seemed at the time. Uh-oh...

[drizzt]

"give me an army of West Point graduates and ill win you a battle, Give me a handful of those Aggies ill win the war"- George S. Patton


BTW Have yall noticed the percentage of thread about this in the last few days.....

[Lloromannic]

So, having just read yet another thread with people saying this or that about the colours of one's do plate other than black, I started thinking about why you have to be really good to have one not black. Not just being a target or whatever, but where does this whole idea come from of being arrogant if you have a do that is not black and you're not a hanshi kyudan.

Its an opinion that is very common not just here but throughout the kendo world. I've never seen or heard a real explanation of the origin's of this sentiment, and people often say things like "unless you are of a really high grade you shouldn't do it" despite numerous (and I mean that in the terms of many many many) examples to the contrary. And even then the opinion stays with these people because they feel they are right in some way that the people using the coloured do are not. But why?

Where do these thoughts, ideas, sentiments, what ever, come from? How did this idea spring up? After all in older kendo pics (like very old) they had the raw bamboo, not lacquered plastic, showing. That to me suggests its a relatively new concept, so it must come from somewhere......

Any thoughts anyone?
I'd say it's fueled by envy and egocentrism in most cases as in "who does he think he is" and macho "hurr you ain't good enough" attitudes. If kendo comes from the samurai then I don't see why not, look at most Oyoroi and they are flashy. Also I'd be willing to say that those who gripe about coloured Do are far more interested in flamboyance than the wearer. You almost never see anyone flaunting the new coloured Do but you always hear someone complain about it. BTW I have a black Do.

And for Gibbo: You probably already know this, but this Bogu is da Bling (http://www.eikobudogu.com/shopping/tokutyu/index.html)(and expensive too)

There is an article on the Kendo World site that refers almost exactly to this topic. It's here. (http://www.kendo-world.com/articles/magazine/swords_of_wisdom_%286%29/index.php) But I think the last paragraph sums it up:


"Maeda Toshiie, a well-known warlord of the Warring States period and a member of Toyotomi Hideyoshi's council of "Five Great Elders" once said "it's good for youth to try shocking things every so often." In other words, flamboyant behaviour and appearance is something not to be scorned, and all people probably need to let go and be flashy at some stage in their life. Put yourself on the line and see how well you hold…"

[KhawMengLee]

"give me an army of West Point graduates and ill win you a battle, Give me a handful of those Aggies ill win the war"- George S. Patton.

"All through your Army careers, you men have bitched about what you call "chicken shit drilling". That, like everything else in this Army, has a definite purpose. That purpose is alertness. Alertness must be bred into every soldier. I don't give a fuck for a man who's not always on his toes. You men are veterans or you wouldn't be here. You are ready for what's to come. A man must be alert at all times if he expects to stay alive. If you're not alert, sometime, a German son-of-an-asshole-bitch is going to sneak up behind you and beat you to death with a sockful of shit!" - Ole Blood n Guts addressing the 3rd Army.

http://www.pattonhq.com/speech.html

"As for the types of comments I make", he continued with a wry smile, "Sometimes I just, By God, get carried away with my own eloquence."

[KhawMengLee]

I'd say it's fueled by envy and egocentrism in most cases as in "who does he think he is" and macho "hurr you ain't good enough" attitudes.

Amen. :tongue:

[runsyi]

Last night after keiko I was looking over a Mine catalog with my sempai and I pointed out a baby blue textured do that I thought was "pretty." He immediately ridiculed me. Of course this was after I made fun of him for wussing out and taping his feet (to be fair, he had to because he's practiced for 10 days straight).

I don't see that it matters. If you're thinking about what your opponent is wearing then you're focusing on the wrong thing in my opinion.

[Kaoru]

I'd say it's fueled by envy and egocentrism in most cases as in "who does he think he is" and macho "hurr you ain't good enough" attitudes. If kendo comes from the samurai then I don't see why not, look at most Oyoroi and they are flashy. Also I'd be willing to say that those who gripe about coloured Do are far more interested in flamboyance than the wearer. You almost never see anyone flaunting the new coloured Do but you always hear someone complain about it. BTW I have a black Do.

And for Gibbo: You probably already know this, but this Bogu is da Bling (http://www.eikobudogu.com/shopping/tokutyu/index.html)(and expensive too)

There is an article on the Kendo World site that refers almost exactly to this topic. It's here. (http://www.kendo-world.com/articles/magazine/swords_of_wisdom_%286%29/index.php) But I think the last paragraph sums it up:


"Maeda Toshiie, a well-known warlord of the Warring States period and a member of Toyotomi Hideyoshi's council of "Five Great Elders" once said "it's good for youth to try shocking things every so often." In other words, flamboyant behaviour and appearance is something not to be scorned, and all people probably need to let go and be flashy at some stage in their life. Put yourself on the line and see how well you hold…"

Gosh, that is so pretty... :)

Kaoru

[Rurouni Kenshin]

Man that da Bling bogu is pretty darn tasteless......looks like its been designed by a colorblind transvestite with the fashionsense of the Dukes of Hazzard.... :p

[Sepiraph]

Look a General Patton, outspoken, flamboyant and a damn near excellent tactician...immortal not only for his talents but his image as well.

While I don't doubt Patton as a great tactician in his own rights, he didn't really have much opportunity to show for it because by that time, the German Army is already on its last leg. I'd say Patton was never truly challenged in WWII.

Beside, Rommel and (especially) Guderian >> Patton in their achievements as a tactician in WWII.

Anyhow...

Regarding fancy Do, I have no problem with it. My Do happens to be black not because everyone else is black, but because I like the colour black. I happen to like my bogu to be as plain as possible, but if someone else want a really flashy bogu either and their sensei/dojo is ok with it, so be it. Although one cannot deny that in Kendo, there is a strong tradition and most people like to follow that, and being overly flashy is probably not a good thing.

[Lloromannic]

Man that da Bling bogu is pretty darn tasteless......looks like its been designed by a colorblind transvestite with the fashionsense of the Dukes of Hazzard.... :p

So says the man with the Kenshin unsername (just kidding)
I agree it's tasteless, but that's the point of Bling-ness, if it's not garishly grotesque it's not Bling.
Colourblind Drag Queen might replace Colourblind Clown as my favorite fashion related insult. Thanks.

[JByrd]

I challenge that interpretation (just a friendly one!)

Why must having a non-black doh be interpreted as a need to stand out?

Thanks, a challenge from you is a gift.

Perhaps it could be useful to flip it around the other way, and ask, "Knowing that almost everyone wears black, why would someone wear a Hello Kitty do if they did NOT wish to stand out?" To do so would seem to refuse to acknowledge the existence of a norm, which would be inconsistent with military training tradition where uniformity (especially among the lower ranks) is strongly valued.

On the other hand, I think I see what assumption you're challenging, and you make perfect sense. I do know some wonderful people who stand way out simply by being themselves, and those people certainly are genuine. But again, to be faithful to the tradition (shu-ha-ri) one doesn't worry about developing true individuality in Kendo until one is pretty fully cooked (6-7 Dan?).

I think we all have a need to stand out as individuals. Part of our assessment of our worth depends on the idea that we are unique, and not just replaceable cogs in a machine. I also think that we have a sometimes competing need to be accepted and be part of a group, which means conformity in some sense.

When I look around me, I think that the basis upon which people separate themselves from others, and unite themselves with others, is frequently superficial and meaningless. People support groups that do not serve their best interest. People who really have a lot in common, and who even have a pressing need to unite, struggle against each other for the dumbest reasons.

I think it takes a lot of deep reflection and self-evaluation to find meaningful ways to distinguish oneself as an individual. Few people make the kind of effort it takes to know themselves, instead they allow their sports heroes or pop idols or political leaders or religious leaders to tell them who they are.

What were we talking about, again?

[Rurouni Kenshin]

What kind of tradition is there anyway in wearing bogu?
A bogu wasnt even indigo to begin with; I bet the 1st person wearing a blue bogu must have stood out aswell and look at us now......

I think this discussion can be looked upon from 2 angles. Get what you want if you can afford it - it might be tasteless or ugly but if its something you really like - not just to show off - but actually like; do it, why not?
You can get a 50$ hakama or a 300$ hakama if you want......
On the other hand, a 15000$ bogu is like having a Bentley for grocery shopping......
On that note, does one need a racing licence before someone can buy a Ferrari? Do you need to be on the PGA tour to get a nice set of golfclubs? Why be 6-7 dan before you can have a nice bogu....... and what is a nice bogu to begin with?
Mine bogu seems very good according to some ppl but at first sight it looks cheap because of the stitching. You can get a very expensive black bamboo do with the best leather possible and you barely see the diffrence at first sight. You can buy a really flashy cheaper do and stand out emmediately......

[LNGUYEN]

Kendo Rebellion. Kendo Rebellion. Kendo Rebellion. !!!!!!

[ekajati]

I agree it's tasteless, but that's the point of Bling-ness, if it's not garishly grotesque it's not Bling.
Colourblind Drag Queen might replace Colourblind Clown as my favorite fashion related insult. Thanks.

They must have changed the link... when i looked it was a v tasteful mottled brown... now, personally I'm still just dreaming of reaching the bogu stage (seems as likely as me scaling the matterhorn barefoot right now) but I could already imagine making a business killing on, say,a pure black bogu with small diamante linked Cs in one corner (or both corners). Or even, for the ex gangland diehard blinger, bogu entirely diamanted...:D :D :D :D :D

[DCPan]

Thanks, a challenge from you is a gift.


You are too kind.


Perhaps it could be useful to flip it around the other way, and ask, "Knowing that almost everyone wears black, why would someone wear a Hello Kitty do if they did NOT wish to stand out?"

Perhaps it could be useful to flip it around the other way, and ask "Knowing how women normally dress in social gatherings, why would a woman wear a skimpy outfit if she did NOT wish to get some lovin?"


To do so would seem to refuse to acknowledge the existence of a norm, which would be inconsistent with military training tradition where uniformity (especially among the lower ranks) is strongly valued.

Soapbox -> On

Just what is it that makes doh color so special anyway?

You don't see people making a big deal about ago colors, mune designs, and etc.

If uniformity was such an issue, we ought to have a dojo standard ago and mune design too...heck, let's standardize the stitch width of the bogu that we should wear at the dojo while we are at it...everyone has to use dobari shinai...

Soapbox -> Off


But again, to be faithful to the tradition (shu-ha-ri) one doesn't worry about developing true individuality in Kendo until one is pretty fully cooked (6-7 Dan?).

I think you dodged the question.

The point of my objection is that you assume that it is about individuality. Correlation does not equal causation. You can't assume the motivation is about standing out because the end result happens to stand out.

That's not really that different from saying that some girl is wearing a hot outfit because she wants to be hit on because she knows that if she looks nondescript, she won't be noticed.

I think someone else in the thread hit it on the spot, the objectors are usually the one's who make a bigger deal out of it than those that have it.

[The great I AM]

And for Gibbo: You probably already know this, but this Bogu is da Bling (http://www.eikobudogu.com/shopping/tokutyu/index.html)(and expensive too)

Seen there, done that, hit the gyaku dou. At the Enbu Taikai in Edinburgh last year I practised with the guy that owns that very same bougu (not a set like it but the actually one in the photo), and it looks very nice indeed when you're holding it in your paws....

[Lloromannic]

Seen there, done that, hit the gyaku dou. At the Enbu Taikai in Edinburgh last year I practised with the guy that owns that very same bougu (not a set like it but the actually one in the photo), and it looks very nice indeed when you're holding it in your paws....

Gibbo, can I have your babies?

[ReKru]

Soapbox -> On

Just what is it that makes doh color so special anyway?

You don't see people making a big deal about ago colors, mune designs, and etc.

If uniformity was such an issue, we ought to have a dojo standard ago and mune design too...heck, let's standardize the stitch width of the bogu that we should wear at the dojo while we are at it...everyone has to use dobari shinai...


Like this?
http://www.psv-mainz.de/_data/z-kendo-0151.jpg

Might be a cultural thing but my limited experience with asian culture tells me they are much more open to uniformity, blending with the environment and rank thinking (higher rank: more bling) whereas us westerners always need to express our 'individuality'.
I remember a VW press release stating that there's 3 million Golf IV on this planet and not 2 equally equipped, since you can 'customize' it so much (but it's still a VW golf and if you'd really want to stick out you'd drive a 40 year old Wartburg or something).

That uniformity culture might have changed a lot trough different influences, but it's still what I percieve as 'typical asian' and it's a good enough reason for me not to try to stick out of 'the crowd' too much.

[DCPan]

Like this?
http://www.psv-mainz.de/_data/z-kendo-0151.jpg


By the look of the picture and the fit, I'd be inclined to think those folks are using club bogu, which would be more likely to be identical.

Why do i think it's club rental stuff? Poor fit.

BTW, I'm Asian...grew up partly in Asia too....

[Kingofmyrrh]

This thread is getting far too serious - Asian culture this Asian culture that... I don't really buy it.

Instead, I'm going to do a fine job of shaming anybody end everybody who thought they'd posted pictures of extreme do designs, real or photoshopped.

Saitama University has a famous kangeiko every year. I think it just finished a few days ago. I always want to go, but it clashes with my own uni's. Mind you, I got thrown over a wall by my teacher this morning, so maybe I'll go where I might be loved next year. Anyway, loads of schools from the area also participate in Saitama Uni's kangeiko, it's meant to have a really enjoyable atmosphere. You'll see why in a sec...

Before I post these photos, I should add that these guys are most certainly in the highest tier of university kendo...

Suburi... nothing to see here.

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/7696/suburi5xm.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Hang on...

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/3715/warmup3nx.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Indeed...

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/4261/yeah6hj.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/8076/crew8ql.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Even the boss is in on it:

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/5484/boss7ni.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[nodachi]

Wow, you sure found a crazy collection of fun pics... although I am sure that the special occasion of this practice makes this a special situation that promotes this sort of goofiness... where are the normal keiko pictures of what they wear day in and day out? I bet they won't be so interesting...

[Kingofmyrrh]

Actually, their team do is pretty funky - a customised plain bamboo number.

[Anime12478]

I'm more concerned about the picture with the hoard of people doing suburi. It seems like fun to do it with a lot of people.

[Hisham]

Actually, their team do is pretty funky - a customised plain bamboo number.

Is it a trend or an exeption i mean for teams to wear funky do? Anyway it surely is a stereotype breaker.

[Paburo]

gibbo, i don't think anyone has stated this obvious fact yet but...

the reason why i think wearing a flashy dou is dumb, is because you'd be just colouring easy your target to the opponent. while youre at it, why dont you paint red or bullseye your kote/tsuki/men datotsu bui and make it easier for everyone else to ippon on you as well?!?!

i think this is the main reason why you see top kendoka in shiai wearing all black, all very-dark indigo. if nothing stands out it's way harder aiming to the right spot.

having said that, i personally have nothing against coloured dou with more 'shibui/elegant' and non-flashy colours. dark grey would be nice, or dark khaki laquered bamboo one, or nightsky blue just to name a few.... (though mine is all black)

also, there is no written rule about wearing flashy dous. BUT ppl are cruel. if you buy one expect a lot, trillion, a ton of jokes landing over you. if ppl make jokes about a HACHIDAN wearing this or that sharkskin gray or red dou, what can you expect as a NEWBIE RBSO?

i have to admit sometimes i do jokes about this as well. there's this other dojo around here, whose members have among other colours: flourescent yellow, stoplight green, super red, light blue, etc.... i call them the power rangers, lol.

[Ignatz]

And what exactly is "fake" armour? I could understand replica same dou dai being called fake, but not sure what you mean otherwise?

That's what I meant, photocopy of sharksin, cherry blossom etc. on fiberglass. I'm of the mind that if you use aluminium siding you should not pretend it is something else. I feel the same way about furniture, buildings everything.

My original do is fiber (I am of the understanding that it is paper fiber) apparently very good quality with very, very plain mune. !6 years and I still use it, very battle scarred. My new do is also very plain, black 64 piece (real) bamboo and I get a lot of compliments on it from people who have been training for a long time. My point is that both are plain but are noticed by others because they are good quality.

I wonder what they will say when I put a small, tasteful grateful dead rose on it (from the american beauty album)

[LarsCW]

Paburo-san I think it's interesting what you are saying but how many kendoka have a men with an X on the ago.

Are they expressing themselves in a way of X marks the spot tsuki me?


I personally prefere the black do also because it's something that we all have at our dojo.

There is one guy whois using a do which van Hattum sensei won and donated to the dojo but the rest is all in black do.

[Rurouni Kenshin]

That's what I meant, photocopy of sharksin, cherry blossom etc. on fiberglass. I'm of the mind that if you use aluminium siding you should not pretend it is something else. I feel the same way about furniture, buildings everything.

My original do is fiber (I am of the understanding that it is paper fiber) apparently very good quality with very, very plain mune. !6 years and I still use it, very battle scarred. My new do is also very plain, black 64 piece (real) bamboo and I get a lot of compliments on it from people who have been training for a long time. My point is that both are plain but are noticed by others because they are good quality.

I wonder what they will say when I put a small, tasteful grateful dead rose on it (from the american beauty album)

I am with you on that one..... I also think there's a difference between expensive/good quality and just plain flashy; especially with cheap flashy.
I'd rather have a compliment on how good/wellmade/durable the bogu is than get some (negative)remarks and RBSO comments.

Dunno how you feel about my opinion but I'd say it's a cool, simple yet tastefull touch to put the dead rose on a black do. By small I guess you mean a kamon-like size?

My personal favourite do would be the one from Mine (http://www.chibabogu.com/catalog/information.php?info_id=28) with a raised emblem on the do-dai. Handpainted dusky purple rose (yes also a simple rose, sorry) relief on black do-dai with dusky purple embroidery on black mune. It's a dream for now tho :disapp:

[Lloromannic]

gibbo, i don't think anyone has stated this obvious fact yet but...

the reason why i think wearing a flashy dou is dumb, is because you'd be just colouring easy your target to the opponent. while youre at it, why dont you paint red or bullseye your kote/tsuki/men datotsu bui and make it easier for everyone else to ippon on you as well?!?!


I don't agree, I can hit a red Do just as well as a black one (as much as that may be) if anything bright coloured kote would be harder to hit as they would be more distracting. If you bnotice the colour of the opponents bogu I'd say you need to mind your kendo rather than the other's bogu.

I want to get this Do (http://www.eikobudogu.com/shopping/do/yamato/konnnami/index.html) (and I will), not too flashy I think but if it makes me the nail that sticks out then (to quote MC Hammer) Hammertime!!!

[Gregory]

When I get my bogu, Im going to get a gold plated do with sterling silver embroidery. Im also going to have a men in the shape of a dragon.

;)

[Paburo]

I don't agree, I can hit a red Do just as well as a black one (as much as that may be) if anything bright coloured kote would be harder to hit as they would be more distracting. If you bnotice the colour of the opponents bogu I'd say you need to mind your kendo rather than the other's bogu.
well, you don't agree maybe because your sight is 20/20 and your aim is so good.

for the rest of us mortals withOUT such-a-perfect-sight and 100% accurate aim, the colour contrast makes it a lot easier.

actually, i dont use glasses for kendo, though im a little shortsighted. i know a lot of my kendomates skip wearing glasses too. and i think i've read on another post mr. gibson is one of us semi-zatoichi kenshi as well.

i never hit to miss, but i sure as hell miss a way lot less against a power ranger than against someone wearing all black/darkblue. hey, all the better for me if ppl go around wearing flashy stuff hehe...


1. Cone photoreceptors provide color vision as well as high acuity vision
Seeing things in color is something we take for granted, unless we know someone who is colorblind and we become aware of the difficulties this presents. Color vision is not only a pleasurable experience, it also helps us locate and identify objects in the visual scene that would be hard to pick out in shades of gray. The ability to discern different wavelengths, or colors, of light gives us more information for detecting and identifying objects than would be provided solely by black and white vision, as demonstrated in Figure 1.
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/eyecol.html


more on effective color contrast here (http://www.lighthouse.org/color_contrast.htm)

does this really make such a great difference in kendo? i'm not sure, and i don't really care that much. as i said before, besides the colour contrast thing i just personally find tasteless wearing flashy colours in kendo. nothing against more elegant, subtle, coloured dou tho....

[Newbie]

>To me, the more important question is a personal one: Why do people feel a >need to stand out from others, and on what basis do they choose to >distinguish themselves from others?

Why can't it be just because it's their favourite colour so that's what they like to wear?

The flashy do conversation's been really interesting but this thread started because one guy wanted to know people's opinion on a rather subdued red do. Not flashy or funky. Just a solid colour (and I thought rather nice) that wasn't black. Personally, I'm probably going to go with plain black when I get to buying bogu but I was actually rather partial to the same red.

In our dojo, we've got a couple guys in varying shades of red, one I think in blue and pretty much everyone else is black and you know what? I can't even think of who has what because it's not bright and flashy, it doesn't stand out and for me at least, it doesn't really matter.

[Gregory]

>To me, the more important question is a personal one: Why do people feel a >need to stand out from others, and on what basis do they choose to >distinguish themselves from others?

Why can't it be just because it's their favourite colour so that's what they like to wear?
.

YEAH!

Some people LIKE 10000 dollar bogus! Ones that are made of grade a bamboo that gets massaged and watered with wine. Psh, its not because they are obsessed with themselves.

Now, Question.

For my bogu, should I spend 20k on the BAMBOO, or on the silver and gold that it is dipped in...

ugh...such a hard decision...

[shred_lord]

YEAH!

Some people LIKE 10000 dollar bogus! Ones that are made of grade a bamboo that gets massaged and watered with wine. Psh, its not because they are obsessed with themselves.

Now, Question.

For my bogu, should I spend 20k on the BAMBOO, or on the silver and gold that it is dipped in...

ugh...such a hard decision...I happen to agree with Newbie here, I think people sometimes read too much into this. I think the majority of people with coloured Do just like the colour. It's not about some secret ulterior motive to get noticed and stand out from the croud.

Seriously Gregory, you (and few others) accuse people with coloured Do of being super vain or not understanding what kendo is about, when I think 99% just think ooh, that looks nice, I'll have that one.

[Gregory]

Nah, actually I agree with you guys. However I think that you shouldnt be NEW to kendo or suck and get a bright do or bamboo do.

[Newbie]

Except it's the new guys that don't know any better. Hell, until finding this forum I was seriously going to go with either red or black because I didn't know red would make me stand out (not being doing kendo long at all). So it's the new guys who are more likely to get something simply because they like the colour and don't know, by your reasoning, that they shouldn't be the ones to get it.

[nodachi]

Except it's the new guys that don't know any better. Hell, until finding this forum I was seriously going to go with either red or black because I didn't know red would make me stand out (not being doing kendo long at all). So it's the new guys who are more likely to get something simply because they like the colour and don't know, by your reasoning, that they shouldn't be the ones to get it.

I am not trying to attack you, but just pose a question... so much of kendo is based on watching and observing those around you... when everyone in a dojo wears subtle colors on their bogu in the decorative stiching places and most people have black doh, except for the occassional sensei, shouldn't a little light turn on in their heads that getting a flashy doh is going to look funny? Why can people be so observant (or at least trying to be observant) to technique and pay close attention to that, but then not be able to tell the difference between the color of everyone's doh in the dojo? Like I said before, I am not trying to attack your post, I just don't understand how they could miss this after practicing in a dojo from anywhere from 4 to 6 months or longer before buying bogu and not notice this...

[Musha]

Originally Posted by mingshi
This is also along my thought. When everybody uses different do colour, no one really has the bling bling.

People need to keep an open mind and see more stuff.:-
http://www.nishinippon.co.jp/jigyou/...a/27/01/01.jpg
http://www.nishinippon.co.jp/jigyou/...tama/24/c.html

Gibbo are you talking about practice or tournaments?
In Japanese tournaments like that above, a lot of people aren't fighting for them selfs but fighting for they schools or colleges and all the dos that are used are made by the school to advertise such as saitama sakae which is a very popular sports school near where I was staying. Its like a uniform.
The police in the all Japan use different do because they want to be known by people and there local police department to become famouse and more new people become interested in joining.

When we practice kendo we all go there to be trained under our sensei. Every one what ever grade is equal apart from the sensei.

In Japan black is known as a buddhist nutural colour.

[samurai999]

When I get my bogu, Im going to get a gold plated do with sterling silver embroidery. Im also going to have a men in the shape of a dragon.

;)

I will be the first in line to practice my dou then.

Tim

[Fonsz]

Since we are on the subject of flashy bogu/do I wanted to check something. A while ago I saw footage of a Japanese game show where you had to beat a Kendoka whose bogu was like something out of a movie.

It was white and yellow with flames on the tare. The men looked like a welding mask because he was supposed to be anonymous. Lots of Kenshi went up and lost. He was really good and the shiai started with a lot of smoke and a shinpan in traditional dress.
Apart from the over the top flashy bogu it was kinda neat. It was on one of these game shows where people do the strangest things Japanese style. Can any of you Japan hands enlighten me about this guy who was never beat? The show was called "Challenger". Now his do was a work of art together with the rest of his gear.:ermm:

[samurai999]

Since we are on the subject of flashy bogu/do I wanted to check something. A while ago I saw footage of a Japanese game show where you had to beat a Kendoka whose bogu was like something out of a movie.

It was white and yellow with flames on the tare. The men looked like a welding mask because he was supposed to be anonymous. Lots of Kenshi went up and lost. He was really good and the shiai started with a lot of smoke and a shinpan in traditional dress.
Apart from the over the top flashy bogu it was kinda neat. It was on one of these game shows where people do the strangest things Japanese style. Can any of you Japan hands enlighten me about this guy who was never beat? The show was called "Challenger". Now his do was a work of art together with the rest of his gear.:ermm:

Was this the Hyaku-man challenge? I've been looking for that video for a while. All of the best representatives of each area of kendo went up against him and lost. Wierd thing was, the elementary (or was it middle school) champ went up and got a kote on him. That kid was quick!

Tim

[Gregory]

I will be the first in line to practice my dou then.

Tim

You can try. But you will start crying. My dragon men is intense; it looks angry and it has a voice changer in it!

[Curtis]

Even the boss is in on it:

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/5484/boss7ni.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I have no idea how you found this, but that is Shioiri Sensei of Saitama University. He came to Seattle and stayed at my house with his wife and daughter a few years ago.

I think I may have to write to him and ask what these pictures are all about. This has to be some special camp they were doing. And I thought he was funny when he visited.

[The great I AM]

Hmmmm, I right old can of worms I've opened here! Its been a while since people posted this much in only a few days. Ho hum!

Paburo, I couldn't disagree with you more. Of the 3 dou I own only 1 is black, and I never find that people go for my dou more because it is highlighted to them, even when I use the grey and black patterned one.


Why can't it be just because it's their favourite colour so that's what they like to wear?

I know someone that spent a significant amount of cash on his bougu, including a red and black cloud patterned dou, and red stiching on plenty of the rest of it, all because he likes red. Thats a good enough reason for me.

Musha: I'm talking about everyday practise.


Nah, actually I agree with you guys. However I think that you shouldnt be NEW to kendo or suck and get a bright do or bamboo do. So you DON'T agree then, because you just contradicted yourself just there. Why do you have to be experienced and good to have the nice spangly dou, or even better, why do you have to not suck in order to get a dou you like? I'm sorry but I find that absolutely absurd.

And while I'm here....


Some people LIKE 10000 dollar bogus! Ones that are made of grade a bamboo that gets massaged and watered with wine. Psh, its not because they are obsessed with themselves.

Why should you care how much people spend on armour? That $10,000 armour could last them a life time AND look great with it too. Why do people have to be, in your opinion "obsessed with themselves" in order to buy quality in a form they like? Hell, if I'm going to spend $10,000 on armour, the bloody thing had better look exactly how I want it to for that money. If I decide to use something generic then there is plenty out there for less. If I want something personal then I have to spend the money. Simple idea. Nothing to do with being obsessed by the man in the mirror my good chap!

[Newbie]

>I am not trying to attack you,

Ack! Dear god no. How unenglightening would this forum be if we all agreed on everything? We'd never learn a thing!

>but just pose a question... so much of kendo is based on watching and >observing those around you...

*laf* I'm the wrong person to talk to about that. I am totally unobservant! I know it's important in kendo and I'm working on it, honest!

>when everyone in a dojo wears subtle colors on their bogu in the >decorative stiching places and most people have black doh, except for the >occassional sensei, shouldn't a little light turn on in their heads that getting >a flashy doh is going to look funny?

Hmm.. I think we're talking across purposes. I'm not referring to flashy do but the subtle colours that you refer to.

>Why can people be so observant (or at least trying to be observant) to >technique and pay close attention to that, but then not be able to tell the >difference between the color of everyone's doh in the dojo?

Because they're more interested in what people are doing than wearing.


>I know someone that spent a significant amount of cash on his bougu, >including a red and black cloud patterned dou, and red stiching on plenty of >the rest of it, all because he likes red. Thats a good enough reason for me.

Red's my favourite colour - I like this guy!

I'm being a bit of a devil's advocate because when I do get do, I am planning on just getting black and to be honest my reasons are: it's easier to touch up and I don't want to stand out.

What I'd be interested to know is what the reasons are for those reading this thread who have coloured do are. Is it just cos you liked the colour or what?

[The great I AM]

What I'd be interested to know is what the reasons are for those reading this thread who have coloured do are. Is it just cos you liked the colour or what?

Bingo! Why should I spend my hard earned green on something I don't actually want / like just because people think I should fit in and conform?

[Ipp-on Ipp-off]

I'm sorry but I have to confess that I have a green do, and worst of all my kendo sucks too.
Not that I care about the first part but hey sometimes you get lucky. I bought my bogu when I was in korea and guess what it had a green do. Since it was a very good price about $300 I didn't notice or care. This stuff only becomes a issue when people make it an issue.
It kind of reminds me of this koan:

"Tanzen and Ekido were once travelling together down a muddy road. A heavy rain was still falling.
Coming around the bend, they met a lovely girl in a silk kimono and sash, unable to cross the intersection.
"Come on girl", said Tanzen at once. Lifting her in his arms, he carried her over the mud.
Ekido did not speak again until that night when they reached a lodging temple. Then he no longer could restrain himself. "We monks don't go near females," he told Tanzen, "especially not young and lovely ones. It is dangerous. Why did you do that?"
"I left the girl there," said Tanzen. "Are you still carrying her?"

[KhawMengLee]

Why should you care how much people spend on armour? That $10,000 armour could last them a life time AND look great with it too. Why do people have to be, in your opinion "obsessed with themselves" in order to buy quality in a form they like? Hell, if I'm going to spend $10,000 on armour, the bloody thing had better look exactly how I want it to for that money. If I decide to use something generic then there is plenty out there for less. If I want something personal then I have to spend the money. Simple idea. Nothing to do with being obsessed by the man in the mirror my good chap!

Everybody thinks the guy driving the Ferrari is a prick...that is...until they drive one themselves.

[Kingofmyrrh]

I have no idea how you found this, but that is Shioiri Sensei of Saitama University. He came to Seattle and stayed at my house with his wife and daughter a few years ago.

I think I may have to write to him and ask what these pictures are all about. This has to be some special camp they were doing. And I thought he was funny when he visited.
YOU MUST DEFEAT THE GUARDIAN FIRST!

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5428/aztec2gk.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

They do this every year for kangeiko.

[Musha]

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/5264/aztec2gk26yl.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Oh gosh...

[Paburo]

aah, mr. gibson... but grew and black doesnt sound too flashy and all. and i'm glad ppl dont go dou crazy on you when you wear your coloured dous :D

now really, i'm starting to think i'm paranoid and these are just my imaginations, but guys (this is a semi-serious question!)..... in your honest opinion, what would be harder to aim and hit? the guy wearing the black dou? or the one wearing red? haha.

http://nippon-kempo.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/bbtplaying.jpg.w300h246.jpg

http://nippon-kempo.tripod.com/id7.html

seems like the coloured dou fashion is up-to-date on american kempo as well... oh yeah.

[Lloromannic]

now really, i'm starting to think i'm paranoid and these are just my imaginations, but guys (this is a semi-serious question!)..... in your honest opinion, what would be harder to aim and hit? the guy wearing the black dou? or the one wearing red? haha.


The one worn by the better kenshi, otherwise no real difference (and my eyesight is 20/180)

[Inouye02]

I will be the first in line to practice my dou then.

TimI think the WHOLE Dojo and invited guests will be in this line ..hahahahahha

[Kingofmyrrh]

now really, i'm starting to think i'm paranoid and these are just my imaginations, but guys (this is a semi-serious question!)..... in your honest opinion, what would be harder to aim and hit? the guy wearing the black dou? or the one wearing red? haha.
I really don't think it makes the slightest difference, to give an honest reply.

[The great I AM]

I really don't think it makes the slightest difference, to give an honest reply.

I echo this completely. Dou colour makes absolutely no difference at all to me. If its open, I'll hit it, if its black, red, magenta, gold with embossed dragons on it or invisible.

The reason one is no harder to aim at is because it is in the same place all the time, not moving up and down the kendoka's body like the bonus UFO in space invaders.

[JasonC]

Bingo! Why should I spend my hard earned green on something I don't actually want / like just because people think I should fit in and conform?

Just to play devil's advocate, would that extend to other items of kendo gear, for example a coloured hakama? Or, heaven forbid, a union jack hak. :)

cheers,
Jason

[JByrd]

Perhaps it could be useful to flip it around the other way, and ask "Knowing how women normally dress in social gatherings, why would a woman wear a skimpy outfit if she did NOT wish to get some lovin?"

[snip]

I think you dodged the question.

The point of my objection is that you assume that it is about individuality. Correlation does not equal causation. You can't assume the motivation is about standing out because the end result happens to stand out.

That's not really that different from saying that some girl is wearing a hot outfit because she wants to be hit on because she knows that if she looks nondescript, she won't be noticed.


I think it is very, very, different from your analogy to a girl in a "hot outfit." Your rephrased question is loaded to imply that my view would justify making unwelcome advances on a woman because of her appearance. You changed being noticed to being hit on, and that's not fair to my argument. There is absolutely no basis for drawing that parallel as I never even came close to attempting to justify action taken against someone who stands out.

So, back to my point: It simply defies logic for me to do something that I know will make me stand out if I do not wish to stand out.

If I decide that my individual desire for a Hello Kitty dou overrides my aversion to standing out, then I have made a statement about how much I value my individual expression (== choice of color) over the group norm. So it IS about individuality. Causality enters into the picture because we know the likely result in advance of making the choice, and it factors into the choice.

A lot of Kendo has to do with politeness, and that sometimes means going with the flow even if we might have an individual preference to do otherwise.

[DCPan]

There is absolutely no basis for drawing that parallel as I never even came close to attempting to justify action taken against someone who stands out.

I did not mean it that way. Sorry if I offended you.



So, back to my point: It simply defies logic for me to do something that I know will make me stand out if I do not wish to stand out.

A lot of Kendo has to do with politeness, and that sometimes means going with the flow even if we might have an individual preference to do otherwise.

The irony of all this is what you said is the exact same thing I said to my female friends in college about why they shouldn't be wearing what they were wearing.

FWIW.

[The great I AM]

Just to play devil's advocate, would that extend to other items of kendo gear, for example a coloured hakama? Or, heaven forbid, a union jack hak. :)

cheers,
Jason

Like I said, its your money, but there is a big difference in paying for something that looks good, and paying to make yourself look like a twat.

[JasonC]

On the other hand that big difference is aesthetic, and thus presumably entirely subjective. And who's to say that the view of some people about coloured do, isn't as valid as your opinion of dodgy hakama. FWIW my personal view leans towards Neil's back on page one, that uniformity in kendo is something that shouldn't necessarily be discarded lightly.

[ekajati]

I'm of the opinion that nowadays, given the changes we've seen in formerly trad things like cricket "whites" (often no longer white in professional matches), it's actually far MORE whacky and outrageous to remain formal and traditional than to go for colour... in light of that I'm changing my aspiration from a Chanel logo do ( ;) ) to an ultra conformist black one.... if I ever reach that stage, that is :D

[JSchmidt]

Like I said, its your money, but there is a big difference in paying for something that looks good, and paying to make yourself look like a twat.

Ah, but that is the crux of the matter, isn't it?. If the majority says that having a bright blue do makes you look like a twat, then, well, having a bright blue do makes you look like a twat :D.
I also know you well enough that if someone turned up with a Union Jack hakama, you'd do your best to muller them in keiko :D.

Jakob

[Neil Gendzwill]

Ah, but that is the crux of the matter, isn't it?. If the majority says that having a bright blue do makes you look like a twat, then, well, having a bright blue do makes you look like a twat.
And many Japanese won't tell you they think it makes you look like a twat.

[Hai_hai]

First off, I feel that there is a difference between expensive fancy do and cheap fancy do, i.e. fiber or yamato do with non-black do-dai.

Second, DOWN WITH ALL YOU RICH-BOY SHOW-OFFS!!!

[The great I AM]

And who's to say that the view of some people about coloured do, isn't as valid as your opinion of dodgy hakama.

Exactly. This is the whole point of the thread. It IS your money to spend as you wish, and I would most definately not begrudge you a hakama that you like, weather or not I think it looks silly or not.


Ah, but that is the crux of the matter, isn't it?. If the majority says that having a bright blue do makes you look like a twat, then, well, having a bright blue do makes you look like a twat :D.
I also know you well enough that if someone turned up with a Union Jack hakama, you'd do your best to muller them in keiko :D.

JakobBut is it? I simply said that I thought that he'd look a twat, not that I thought he shouldn't wear it, isn't good enough to wear it, doesn't have the experience to deserve it or whatever. Just simply, that I wouldn't like it. This is a different kettle of fish. Sure, everyone knows I love a good flash do, but I have also seen some that I think look shit. Doesn't mean I think people shouldn't wear them.

Have I made my point?

And as for mullering people, I'd muller them no matter what they were wearing.....snoogins:evil:

[Rurouni Kenshin]

Just wondering if this (http://www.chibabogu.com/catalog/images/do/bamboo_raw.jpg) or this (http://www.chibabogu.com/catalog/images/do/bamboo_black.jpg) would be considered as RBSO, fashion no-no or just plain freakazoid; yet it is 'traditional'

[JByrd]

I did not mean it that way. Sorry if I offended you.


We're cool. :happy:



The irony of all this is what you said is the exact same thing I said to my female friends in college about why they shouldn't be wearing what they were wearing.
FWIW.

Yes, that's a tough argument to make because it is a slippery slope in both directions. It's easy to think of scary examples of group norms taken too far, and individual desires taken too far.

It's very hard to judge the point at which we become responsible for how others react to us. Life is so much more complicated when we not only have to worry about what we will do, but also about how everybody else will view us if we do it.

I tend to go with the flow unless I either have a very good reason not to, or I feel like there will be minimum impact in doing my own thing. I don't always make good judgements in that regard. I guess I'm a little too much of a renegade, because it seems like when I mess up, it's more often by going against the flow when I shouldn't.

[mingshi]

... Sure, everyone knows I love a good flash do, but I have also seen some that I think look shit. Doesn't mean I think people shouldn't wear them.
So afterall, it's the same old thing about pretty people look good in anything, and ugly people look bad in anything... :smoker:

[D'Artagnan]

... having a bright blue do makes you look like a twat...


yeah! I hate people with bright blue dou-dai! they all look like twats!

[shred_lord]

Yeah, I remember one nob who had a blue do, I faced him in shiai and he took me apart in no time, the second point was kote and he got it seconds after the hajimi. Bastard, if he hadn't been wearing a flashy do I'd have owned him proper like.:grin:

[Ignatz]

Yeah, I remember one nob who had a blue do, I faced him in shiai and he took me apart in no time, the second point was kote and he got it seconds after the hajimi. Bastard, if he hadn't been wearing a flashy do I'd have owned him proper like.:grin:

Did he look like a twat?

[D'Artagnan]

Did he look like a twat?


Yeah! Totally!! he looked like the biggest twat ever! I think he was ginger as well!

[KhawMengLee]

Yeah! Totally!! he looked like the biggest twat ever! I think he was ginger as well!

Yeah, I concur! Twatage Maximus I believe his zekken said.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

The irony of all this is what you said is the exact same thing I said to my female friends in college about why they shouldn't be wearing what they were wearing.


Haha, sounds like you knew some like one I did

Girl: Why are all these guys hitting on me when I just want to have a quiet drink?

Me thinking: Gee, I dunno, it couldn't be because you're wearing a bikini top the size of two postage stamps and short shorts that would barely cover my hand.

It wasn't somebody I could really say that to though.

[enkorat]

From my personal experience my feeling is that it may have something to do with visual accuity, as previously stated earlier in this thread.

I am a neuroscientist in my real life, and although I don't work in visual systems I did have to (suffer) through several different courses in vision both from systems neuroscience and neuroanatomy (no I didn't sleep through them). And being a scientist (and a geek), I tend to make scientific observations at inappropriate times. Sometimes even in kendo.

I've noticed that fighting a person in dark blue keikogi, dark blue hakama, dark blue kote, black doh, and blue men makes targeting and perception of distance a little more challenging. Essentially its because when I fight someone like that, its essentially one monochromatic blur, especially if you're using "ezan no mestuke" and not looking at your targets directly.

--Warning Geeky Science Content and Rampant Speculation Below-

So the surface of the human retina is made up of overlapping circular fields called "on-off" fields, and vision although relying on individual cones and rods doesn't nessesarily come from one cone or rod saying "I see something". From a non-scientist level, I'm going to say that these fields generally work by the sum of these cones and rods saying "We see something". (Its more detailed than that and I apologize to doctors and other scientists).

The short and long of this organization is that the center of your retina has the small visual fields, almost all the color detectors, and the highest accuity (similar to resolution).

As you travel away from the center of your vision, you have larger visual fields, less acuity (less resolution), and faster black and white receptors. However, these larger visual fields tend to be more sensitive to motion, which in simple terms can be constructed to mean a change in contrast travelling across your field of view.

Thus the further out you go from the center of your vision (ie. what you are looking at directly), you lose color preception but you become more sensitive to changes in contrast and motion detection.

The professor who was teaching our vision lecture had us look at a red fire extinguisher at the end of the lecture hall. If you turn your head and let your eyes not track the object, eventually as it moves away from the center of your visual field it will turn grey/black.

Also, the retina artificially increases the contrast between two contrasty borders, and this effect becomes more pronounced as the visual fields get bigger. Some popular optical illusions take advantage of this phenomena (ie. the "grey" spots in the middle of black squares on a white background, and the same color square on different color backgrounds looks different)

Conversely, the same system artificially decreases the contrast between two similarly contrasty objects.

So here is my rampant speculation part. Since we're taught not to look directly at our target areas besides the effect of "telegraphing", I think it may also be so that we can detect motion easier/faster/sooner. The flipside is that we don't have much accuity. If you're wearing dark blue and black its essentially the same as wearing all black/grey to the edge of your visual field.

Having a bright value/dark value border distinguishing our target and non-target areas, it becomes much easier for the border of our visual fields to a) track the movement 2) distinguish between the two areas and target while not looking at the target area directly.

These differences are probably not that great, but since we're reacting and moving in such a rapid time frame, even small amounts of things like contrast and accuity might start coming in to play....


Anyway, back to non-geeky stuff... we can still argue about culture and stuff....
:redface:

[D'Artagnan]

Yeah, I concur! Twatage Maximus I believe his zekken said.


actually it said 'Gingerous Twatage Maximus'

[shred_lord]

I wonder if the Ginge Minge will be at halifax on friday?

[D'Artagnan]

I wonder if the Ginge Minge will be at halifax on friday?


Oh I hope so...

If he is i'm gonna kick his shiny blue dou-ginger haired ass!

[shred_lord]

Oh I hope so...

If he is i'm gonna kick his shiny blue dou-ginger haired ass!What!? He's got ginger arse hair..... not sure I wanted to know that! :spchless:

[D'Artagnan]

What!? He's got ginger arse hair..... not sure I wanted to know that! :spchless:


hey man, you think thats bad, i've seen his pubes...

[KhawMengLee]

hey man, you think thats bad, i've seen his pubes...

This thread has officially enterred the Inquisition 'must cleanse with fire' list.

[Gregory]

yeah! I hate people with bright blue dou-dai! they all look like twats!

The president of the sckf has a bright blue sharkskin dou... he was really good in my humble opinion.

[KhawMengLee]

The president of the sckf has a bright blue sharkskin dou... he was really good in my humble opinion.

chill greg...he's talking about himself...Ginger boy/D'Art wears a blue dou.

[Gregory]

chill greg...he's talking about himself...Ginger boy/D'Art wears a blue dou.
hahahahaha