New Kendo Kata??

[iwatekenshi]

At a recent seminar in Tokyo about Kendo Kata the Nippon Kendo Renmei is thinking of introducing new kata for shodan and nidan testing here in Japan. This is still in it's infancy but is being debated. We might see some change, but who knows.

[aru-ma]

hmm... that's quite interesting actually, can you give out the details on it (eg.kamae, etc), whether its going to replace or add to the current one?

[nodachi]

I don't see any harm in it. Many people think acelerating the learning of kata will only benefit people. They were telling me before I left Japan that I only needed to know up to sanbonme for the shodan test. They taught me more, but that I only needed those for the test coming up. I don't see any harm in testing on more.

Although, is this what you are referring to, testing more of the kata, or is it testing with completely new kata??? I hope I didn't missinterpret.

[iwatekenshi]

Completely new kata. That's what I meant. Sorry for the misunderstanding. New kata would be simply aiuchi men, kote and do all from chudan I think. Many shonen kendo clubs often do kihon uchi kata before practice including Nippon Kendo Kata. I guess the renmei is thinking of putting it in just as an extra measure of skill testing.

[Chusan]

AFAIK uchikata IS an alternative for Nihon-Kendo-Kata, isn`t it?

[Confound]

It sounds like a good idea to me. From what I understand of judo sho-dan exams, there is something very similar in their exam as well. According to the judo sensei at work, there is a section of the judo exam where examinees have to perform certain waza on demand. Is that the same kind of thing as what has been proposed?

c

[iwatekenshi]

Nope just simple usage of the bokuto I think. Nothing really complicated.

[kendomushi]

When I tested for shodan, we had to know kata 1-5. At nidan it was 1-7, and at sandan it was all 7 tachi and all 3 kodachi. Now its 3 of 5 for shodan, 5 of 7 for nidan, 7 of all 10 for sandan. But finally if you test for yondan and get to the kata phase you have to know and perform all the kata.
But every test I have attended in the past 3 years, the judges have reprimanded, complained, and lectured everyone on how poor thier kata was. And the groups singled out as the worst were always the sandan. In fact I watched a test in Nov of 2001 where one group was made to repeat 3 of the kata over one dozen times before the judges would pass them.
This makes me wonder, do we need simpler, more basic kata for lower levels, or do we simply need more emphasis on instruction of kata. In this area, I know for a fact that most schools pay minimal attention to kata until a month or two before exams. However in our school we do at least 30 minutes of kata after keiko every session.
Personally, I think simpler kata belong in the kyu level. For shodan and up we need to instruct better, more often, and renew the proper emphasis and value of kata.

[mingshi]

What type of change? New Kata as a replacement or an additional requirement? The first 3 Kata have their "historical" meaning (refering to the Kata book), and I highly doubt if anything else can replace that.

Just figured out one way to improve everyone's Kata... Let's say, for Shodan you'll need all ten . So no one can escape from regular Kata practice, and there is no excuse for learning Kata one day before the exam.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by mingshi
What type of change? New Kata as a replacement or an Just figured out one way to improve everyone's Kata... Let's say, for Shodan you'll need all ten . So no one can escape from regular Kata practice, and there is no excuse for learning Kata one day before the exam.

How about simply enforcing more stringent exam standards on the kata we require now? I don't think anybody fails an ikkyu exam based on kata now, so long as their kiri-kaeshi and keiko is OK.

[JSchmidt]

"I don't think anybody fails an ikkyu exam based on kata now, so long as their kiri-kaeshi and keiko is OK."

The British Kendo Association recently turned up the screws on kata and are now extremly stringent..which would have been kinda ok, if they had actually informed the dojo's about it.
OTOH, I think it should be relative to the grade. How can you demand pressure, intent and good zanshin in kata, when you don't demand it from their ji-geiko?

Jakob

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by JSchmidt
[B OTOH, I think it should be relative to the grade. How can you demand pressure, intent and good zanshin in kata, when you don't demand it from their ji-geiko?[/B]
Who's talking about that? I'd just like to see them get the moves in the right order and show that they understand the fundamental points of each kata.

[JSchmidt]

Sorry, got carried away with a rant :).

Jakob

[kendokamax]

the new kata are actually very simple kihon with bokken.

Just today we had a class about these new "kata".

The sensei was saying these new kata will be introduce mainly for kids. Because the nihon kendo kata are much too difficult to do for kids. They will be likely used during grading for ikkyu to around second or third dan.

Let me give you the list of these kihon done with bokken

#1, ippon uchi no waza: men, kote, dou, tsuki
#2 nidan no waza : kote-men
#3 harai waza : harai-men
#4 hiki waza : hiki dou
#5 nuki waza : men nuki dou
#6 suriagewaza : kote suriage men
#7 debana waza : debana kote
#8 kaeshi waza : kaeshi dou
#9 uchiotoshi waza : dou uchiotoshi men

I heard there is also new kendo kata done by some sensei somewhere in japan.

[kendokamax]

ah oups didnt read all the post on the thread before posting

haha dumb kid

[iwatekenshi]

Kendokamax,
Thanks for the list of new kata, you saved me a bunch of time now that I don't have to post them up. Being there (IBU) you should be able to get some good info. They all seem good to me. I've been practicing them myself since the weekend.

[AlexM]

Max knows something about kata!?!?!? To quote Keanu: "whoa".

I don't know how those Budai people did it but they got him to study kata.... I'm just flabergasted (spell?)... there is no spoon.

Here's a suggestion for better kata at gradings: Not having 30 people doing them at the same. How are the judges supposed to see the kata on everybody when there are just 5 judges and 15 pairs of kendoka.
There's a set number of (flgrant) mistakes you're allowed (I think it's 3 for shodan) over the course of doing the kata. But you could probably make 20 mistakes and not have anyone notice given the size of the crowd.

[Chusan]

New kata?
I`m not sure whether I got it right.
If talking about the uchi-kata, or keishicho-kata (as I know it), this is no new kata. AFAIK it`s some fifty years old or even older. When Nihon-Kendo-Kata comes from historical sword-fighting, uchi-kata has a more sporty aspect though it follows very strict rules. There are several chapters, from kihon to ohji-waza, it has a special way of performing rei and specials commands.
The first part is called dai-ichi-kihon-keishicho-kata and it contains men-uchi (command:´men o utte!`), sayu-men, kote, do, tsuki, followed by renzoku-waza, with renzoku-men, kote-men, kote-do, kote-men-do (Kiai: ´te! men! do! ichi! ichi-ni-san!` counting every step back).
That kata gets quite complicated when proceeding through the forms and it`s a great way of learning the most common (if not all) Kendo-techniques of Kendo.

[kendokamax]

ya but alex who gives a damn about kata when you are going for shodan. The shinaido of everyone is a bit more important I think?

[stevemcgee99]

Why make kata easier? Practice more!

Should shiai be easier for all us lousy kendoka?

[kendokamax]

these kata are for kids

so better to make them easier

[aru-ma]

Originally posted by stevemcgee99
Why make kata easier? Practice more!

though there's some truth to that I think that it may be better if the kata is made simpler for kids to do and understand and once they undestood it will be easier for them to understand and do any form of kata. Besides it takes more time to understand than memorize.

[Confound]

If the new kata are for kids, then it might be a step in the right direction. It seemed to me, as Aru-ma commented, that understanding the mechanics and reasoning behind the kata was a bit much for little kids to understand. Albeit, junior high students have no problems, and they're the ones taking shodan exams anyway.

If these new kata are to be introduced for little kids, where would they be used? As there aren't really any big kyu gradings over here, exactly when would people be tested on the new kata?

c

[iwatekenshi]

Looks like they might be added to the shodan and nidan testings. But yes the basic idea behind the reasoning is to learn the basic mechanics. There is a lot of debate on where to take kendo from here today, that is why there is a lot of talk about getting back to the basics.

[Chusan]

Sato-sensei (hachidan) told me some time ago, the katas I`m talking about were introduced into Kendo in the 20ies of the last century and seem to be in use at ZNKR-gradings where they are quite popular especially among godan and rokudan exams. I don`t suppose these gradings to be typical kiddies-stuff :-) ...

[Hyaku]

Originally posted by kendomushi

But every test I have attended in the past 3 years, the judges have reprimanded, complained, and lectured everyone on how poor thier kata was.
----------
I couldnt agree more. Because no one "does" kata in Japanese Dojo I have been to. Rather than make even more silly stuff up (which the ZNKR seem to have a thing about) it would be a good ideas for people to actualy practice what we already have.

I don't think I have ever heard Japanese judges complain about people from other countries kata?

Hyaku

[Confound]

Kata are critical. At my shodan exam, the kata section was pitiful. Many will disagree, but I believe kata are essential to learning kendou, and at my exam, many people passed who really didn't do the kata well.

There was, of course, a lecture later about studying kata, and the importance of doing them well. I wish we practiced kata a bit more.

c

[kendomushi]

I was really annoyed the other day. We have a student testing for 3 dan on June 29 this year. One of the other 3 dan told her that she doesn't need to do any kata practice until a couple weeks prior to the test. If I were a less civil man he'd have had a shinai up his nether regions so fast he wouldn't have had time to know what hit him before he blacked out from the pain.
The question, how do we get others to buy into the idea that kata are essential and should be regularly practiced? Every week I work with everyone who wants to do kata, but I refuse to force them to do it. What can we do?

[mingshi]

Originally posted by kendomushi
The question, how do we get others to buy into the idea that kata are essential and should be regularly practiced?

Some beginner's thought can be found in these old threads:

What do you think of Kata? (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=199)
Why is Kendo so different from Kata? (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=463)

Now, your job is to clear up these beginner's (mis)conceptions first :D

As you say, and as a beginner I would like to ask again - Kata are essential - Is this just an idea to be bought into, or is this for real? :confused:

[kendomushi]

Thanks for those threads mingshi.

Personally I feel kata are essential to a complete kendoka. They teach us aspects of swordsmanship we seldom see in shiai or gikeiko. Without kata, we can still become a very proficient sportsman, but not a complete and well rounded kendoka.

So for others I can understand how they might feel kata are not essential. If winning shiai is what you are all about, kata will not greatly help in reaching that goal.