Is there anybody out there?!

[Alex]

Isn't there anybody out there doing jodo at all?:confused:

Somebody please get things started here!:(

[Kim Taylor]

Hi Alex

Just got Kendo-World 2 and noticed the forums. I'm online now from Canada where we just had our annual gradings. Happy to report that everyone passed their grades from 1kyu to 3dan.

Kim Taylor

[Nashie]

Greetings from England.
I am sitting at work on night shift trying to write an article for Kim Taylor, after a hard days Jodo practice, when I recieved an email from Kendo World about this forum page. so now I am not doing any work.
I have recently started a discussion with another Japanese jodo practitioner on the meaning and application of Kiai, and wether as westerners we actively try to use and develop our kiai or just shout for the fun of it.
Any one care to comment

[Alex]

why on earth would something like the use of kiai become a Japan vs Western issue?:confused:

[Nashie]

My Apologies Dr A.
The question about kiai was not meant as a Japan/western issue, but was a genuine enquiry from a senior Japanese Sensei visiting England for the first time. Who was trying to get a perspective on our knowledge etc. prior to running a seminar.
I appologise for the confusion the wording of my question caused.

[Alex]

No worries mate!

The kiai thing is a big issue in Japan as well. Exponents of many budo arts in Japan tend to criticize kendo because of too much kiai. So there are differences within modern budo as to what kiai is or should be. You can also see many differences between the classical budo schools as well. For example, Jigen-ryu run around screaming their lungs out- even more so than modern kendo!

I think that one of the best qualified people I know to talk about kiai is Steve Harwood from the UK. He wrote his masters thesis (in Japanese) about breathing and kiai related issues in kendo. We are lucky to have him translating his own thesis into English for our magazine. Have you checked out the articles so far?

cheers

A:D

[Nashie]

Read them and thought them very good, trying some of the techniques suggested and have noticed some changes in my technique, mainly timing at the moment, as breathing control is better, but still loose control in ranai and over long techniques.
Will keep trying and wait to see the longer term effects, also noticed with better kiai and breathing control that my posture stays straighter.
Its 6:15 am here and I am now of home as I finish work in 15 minutes.
All the best from Nashie

[Kim Taylor]

Having started martial arts in 1980 without benefit of Japanese sensei (aikido in 1980, TKD 1982) for many years, I learned kiai entirely within the western context, at least entirely from western instructors. Thing is, their explanations weren't any different than those I got later from Japanese sensei.

As far as jodo is concerned, I do notice that you can control, to a large extent, how the kata proceeds by the volume, intensity and direction of your kiai, aim a good blast right at your partner and his concentration levels pick right up. I don't try to use kiai to disrupt my partner but I have no doubt it can be done.

I use kiai in my women's self defence classes and there it works very well to disrupt an opponent. Let someone get a good grip on you, make sure they can anticipate your movements and maintain control, then suddenly let fly right at their face with your voice (or your hand) and their grip is suddenly gone.

In kendo, or any other art where you kiai a lot you can get used to the volume and the shock, so that you can start wondering if kiai is being "overdone" or useful at all. Then you start thinking about all sorts of things like varying the pitch, "projecting ki" and other suchlike. But the point in class would seem to be to get to just that stage, where your voice is powerful, you can project it well, and you yourself are not affected.

Now go use it against someone who's not used to it.

Kim Taylor

[Jklak]

We don’t have regular jodo training here in Finland. Only one of Finnish kendo member had dan grade in jodo and he had started his jodo practice and did all grading in Japan. In some camps we have had sporadically jodo trainng, and it engage me a lot. Finnish Kendo Association try to get jodo also to their arts assortment but I think that it will take some time. :-(

[ShÖgun]

I have a friend that does judo, but to me i don't consider judo as a martial arts its just wrestling with a gi. But this is only from watching, is there any spirtual part to judo???

[Ares2907]

jOdo.
not judo.

j O d o
It's that funny kata based martial art where they pretend that a guy with a stick can beat a guy with a sword.

Seriously tho, it looks effective and I'm sure experienced jodoka could kick some. Still, my money would be on the guy with the sword.

[ShÖgun]

haha
tells you how much i know

i have never heard of JODO before, interesting i should look it up

[munenmuso]

Originally posted by Ares2907
jOdo.
not judo.

j O d o
It's that funny kata based martial art where they pretend that a guy with a stick can beat a guy with a sword.

Seriously tho, it looks effective and I'm sure experienced jodoka could kick some. Still, my money would be on the guy with the sword.

Ares,

Isn't it that the one who created the art of jodo was defeated and spared to live by Musashi in a duel where Musashi used his Enmyo style of swordsmanship(I think it's the Niten)and easily defeated this man. I read that he devised this method to defeat Musashi's two-sword but not so sure how will it succeed. But he never encountered Musashi again since then, so he never knew the outcome of his creation.

munenmuso

[KhawMengLee]

I think you are reffering to Genosuke (can't remember the rest of his name). There are two versions to his story:

The romantic one (Eiji Yoshikawa's Musashi) states that Genosuke was a poor samurai/farmer who lived with his mother who cached him in the use of the staff. By a chance encounter/mistake he enters a fight with musashi but its stopped when the mistake is realised.

Later both Gen and his mother request a duel with musashi to test his jodo style. Musashi manages to strike down Gen but uses the back of his blade...he then points to a bruise on his chest stating that if gen was an inch closer he would have won. The novel goes on to say how Gen always claimed he lost and Musashi also says he lost but at best it was a draw.

The other version mentions Gen as a huge samurai who challenged musashi to a duel. Musashi at the time had only a thin willow branch in his hand. When he said "yes" Gen attacks without waiting. Musashi blocks and allows himself to be driven back, at this point he switches "on" and begins to counter. His blows are so fast that Gen is driven across the dojo to the wall at which point musashi taps him right between the eyes with the branch( the only weapon, if you could call it that, in his hand).

I don't know what happens next but these are the two versions I got.

*************************************************

This raises the question: Which version to believe and in anycase both are sorta hearsay. The story of this jodo vs kendo bout has been warped a bit by time.

I think to gauge the validity of this argument there needs to be a nice bout between our modern day Musashi's (eg. an AJKC champion etc)and Genosuke's.

MENG

[munenmuso]

Thank's Meng. I think tha't it. I remember it already when you mentioned the "willow bark" as a weapon used by Musashi in that duel. I agree to your statement that, like the duel between Ganryu, the fight between him and Gen was romanticized to add flavor and zest to a somewhat blurry story that did or did not happened at all.

[dave kolb]

Ares,

There's a bunch of high ranking kendo, iai and jodo teachers coming to the Gold Coast in January for the AKR Iaido and Jodo Seminar.

Why not come along and further develop your sword vs stick theory?

[AMikko]

Originally posted by Jklak
We don’t have regular jodo training here in Finland. Finnish Kendo Association try to get jodo also to their arts assortment but I think that it will take some time. :-(

I have a pleasure to tell you that Finnish Kendo Association has taken jodo in to their repertoire last autumn and we do have regular jodo training in Helsinki nowadays. Jodo will rise in north!

AMikko :beard:

[Ares2907]

Dave, time and money permitting, I'd love to. Unfortunately the aforementioned aspects are two things I'm in short supply of.
Besides, it would be wrong of me to beat up on an old-man-with-a-stick just to make him realise he wasted 60 years of his life by not doing more kendo ;)

[Nashie]

Bit long winded I tried to cut it down a bit, without repeating the info already given. but this is the information I have on Gonnosuke for those who are intrested. I am sure there are more conflicting views so do not take this as gospel.
Jodo originally called Jojutsu, the name changed to Jodo "the way of the staff" in 1940. This way of using the staff was devised by one master swordsman, Gonnosuke Katsukichi, specifically to defeat another in the early 1600's. There were wooden staff arts before Gonnosuke's time, such as the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu Bojutsu techniques using the rokushaku bo (six foot staff), as well as the Sekiguchi Ryu, Bokuden Ryu and the Takeuchi Ryu. Gonnosuke studied the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu school of Iaido under Sakurai Ohsumi No Kami Yoshikatsu, then he studied the Kashima Jikishinkage Ryu, like other Samurai of his time he engaged in various duels throughout Japan to test his skills, until he faced Miyamoto Musashi. Musashi beat him with a technique using two swords called Jujidome. Unusually for those days, Musashi did not kill his opponent.
From that time, Gonnosuke went on to travel to many places to study martial arts and he became completely absorbed in how to break Musashi's Juji-dome. After several years he reached Chikuzen no Kuni (modern day Dazaifushi, Fukuoka-ken), and went onto Daizufu Tenmangu Shrine close to a sacred mountain and settled at the Kamado Shrine on Mount Homan where he indulged in a 37-day session of meditation. On the final night in a dream or vision, a child appeared who conferred onto Gonnosuke the teaching of "maruki o motte, suigetsu o shire" ("holding a round stick know the suigetsu"). Keeping this oracle in mind, he reconsidered the design of some original weapons; To lengthen the 3 shaku 2 sun sword by one shaku; to make a staff of 4 shaku 2 sun and 1 bu in length and 8 bu in diameter; and to finally combine the three martial arts of the yari (spear), naginata (halberd) and tachi (sword) to synthesise one martial art, Jodo. With this accomplished, it is said that he went on to break Musashi's Juji-dome technique wether he faced Musashi or someone using his style is unknown.

After this Gonnosuke was summoned to the Kuroda clan (Fukuoka) where he became revered as a teacher. Out of his students, more than ten went on to become teachers of his art although the style was never taught outside of the clan. The founder of Shinto Muso Ryu Jodo became known as Muso Gonnosuke Katsuyoshi.