8 dan?

[yohed55]

Have any U.S. born kendoka ever made it to hachidan? Just wondering, I haven't seen any caucasion 8 dan. Sorry if this is disrespectful.

[jmarsten]

Miyahara sensei is activily practicing in the LA area

[yohed55]

Oh, thanks... I always wondered about that.

[Inouye02]

Miyahara sensei is activily practicing in the LA areamy favorite hachidan sensei...

[mystic_kendoka]

Isn't he japanese by origin though? yohed was asking if there were any caucasian hachidans.

[Nakura]

At this point in time, there are no gaijin hachidans and I seriously doubt there will be any for years to come.

[IssacRu_nana]

At this point in time, there are no gaijin hachidans and I seriously doubt there will be any for years to come.

what are you talking about ? There are a number of hachidans
in China and Korea.

[ScottUK]

The better question would be:

Is there any hachidan who are not of a) Japanese/Korean origin or b) from a country where kendio is not so prevalent?

As for here in the UK, we have a number of nanadan, but no hachidan.

[Hisham]

Nakura what do you mean by years to come, 10 years, 20 years....? And on what info do you base your statement?
I think that asside from having to spend a certain amount of time being a nanadan to try for hachidan, there will always be those who get the "it" of kendo earlier than others and those who just won't which doesn't make them any less admirable, which brings me to my question do you know of any nanadan in your countries who at least are close to ending the time prerequisit for the hachidan test?

[samurai999]

Have any U.S. born kendoka ever made it to hachidan? Just wondering, I haven't seen any caucasion 8 dan. Sorry if this is disrespectful.

Well, Benjamin Hazard sensei got an honorary 8dan a couple of years back. So did miyata sensei. Both are from Norcal.

And yes, miyahara sensei is Inouye02s favorite.

Tim

[yohed55]

Thanks for all the info guys. I think someone from the U.S. will make it to hachidan before I'm out of school.

[mystic_kendoka]

Thanks for all the info guys. I think someone from the U.S. will make it to hachidan before I'm out of school.
No offence to anyone but, I don't think so, because the number of japanese hachidan are going down, so the chances of an american passing the exam is also very minimal, another unfair restriction is language. I'm not 100% sure, but I think you have to pass a written exam in Japanese (or korean/chinese if you're grading there), so even if someone has the skill and spirit, they need to have the linguistic abilities too...



Well, Benjamin Hazard sensei got an honorary 8dan a couple of years back. So did miyata sensei. Both are from Norcal.
On that note; bet not many of you knew that Nelson Mandela is an honorary 8 dan in Kyokushin Karate, the most challenging form of karate. :>

[T.Lee]

i dont believe miyata sensei (my favorite hachidan sensei) got his hachidan in honorarium. he went to kyoto and passed as normal.

he did receive his Hanshi shogo in 2000, which is an honorary title, but separate from his dan rank.

[KhawMengLee]

...another unfair restriction is language. I'm not 100% sure, but I think you have to pass a written exam in Japanese (or korean/chinese if you're grading there), so even if someone has the skill and spirit, they need to have the linguistic abilities too...


Kanji is chinese characters which Chinese, Koreans and Japanese all use...I think the IKF would put the questions in and accept answers in English. When most of us outside of Japan take our exams its all in english too.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it unfair...the language used is part of the culture of the art. We might as well shout "forearm!" instead of "kote" or "Throat!" instead of tsuki.

[nodachi]

In regards to the language issue...

If we've got 40 or 50 years to train and try and get hachidan, I think we can spend a few years learning Japanese somewhere along that journey so we can take the hachidan test in Japanese, if we get there... :)

I doubt the language issues will be the hard part...

[jmarsten]

Well, Benjamin Hazard sensei got an honorary 8dan a couple of years back. So did miyata sensei. Both are from Norcal.

And yes, miyahara sensei is Inouye02s favorite.

Tim
In 1992 the KFUSA awarded hachidan to the following individuals by an exam board of 15 nandans.
Miyahara born in Southern California
Higuchi , i believe he too was born in SC but I am not positive. Now deceased
Shimoda, born in Japan, now deceased
Miyata born in Kagoshima, Japan
Kawaguchi born in Kumamoto, Japan, now deceased

In 2000 the AUSKF Board of Directors bestowed Honarary Hanshi on Dr. Hazard who is now Hanshi Nanadan. He was not the only one to receive honorary shogo, I do not remember all the candidates at the time. Several applications were not approved.

Miyahara sensei and Miyata sensei have a regular shogo of hanshi.
Huang sensei has hachidan that was awarded by Taiwan and recognized by AUSKF.

This past November Tagawa sensei who has resided here in the US for at least the past 20 years passed the AJKF hachidan shinsa. The sensei in France passed a couple of years ago.

[waterdog]

Yes there are no caucasian hachidans.The better question would be. How many caucasian nanadans are there? I think this is almost as rare as hachidans. Lets see I know of at least 1 in the USA and I think there is one each in England and France.
Are there anymore?

[Paikea]

Lets see I know of at least 1 in the USAReally, who's that?

[waterdog]

I think its JMarsten

[DCPan]

Really, who's that?

I believe there is also Mark Grivas sensei?

[ScottUK]

Yes there are no caucasian hachidans.The better question would be. How many caucasian nanadans are there? I think this is almost as rare as hachidans. Lets see I know of at least 1 in the USA and I think there is one each in England and France.
Are there anymore?Err, not as rare as you think. Nanadan Kendoka in the UK (from memory):

John Howell, Jock Hopson, Terry Holt, Mike Davis.

Sorry if I forgot anyone... :)

[mystic_kendoka]

There's at least 1 in Belgium, I think 2, but not sure...

[Paikea]

I believe there is also Mark Grivas sensei?I think so, but can't find anything (quickly) to support that. Obviously (I hope) I know Marsten-sensei's rank. I could not resist a little fishing...

[h2o]

Err, not as rare as you think.
Sweden has one as well.
According to EKF's website there are 18 nanadan (nandan + nanadan kyoshi), but then there are some countries that are really slow on submitting their dan-statistics to the EKF, so there should be more than 18.

[waterdog]

Also according to this Italy has one hachi-dan.

[amatsuda]

In 2000 the AUSKF Board of Directors bestowed Honarary Hanshi on Dr. Hazard who is now Hanshi Nanadan. He was not the only one to receive honorary shogo, I do not remember all the candidates at the time. Several applications were not approved.

Miyahara sensei and Miyata sensei have a regular shogo of hanshi.

If I recall correctly, I believe that there was one other recipient that year for the Shogo of Hanshi was Takuma Bunden Sensei of Salinas Kendo Dojo. Unfortunately, he passed away several years ago. His spirit continues at his Dojo with three prominent instructors; Eitoku, Onitsuka, and Minami Sensei continuing his tradition of providing leadership and instruction.


Yes there are no caucasian hachidans.The better question would be. How many caucasian nanadans are there? I think this is almost as rare as hachidans. Lets see I know of at least 1 in the USA and I think there is one each in England and France.Are there anymore?

Shouldn't we give someone who has received the rank of 7 Dan or 8 Dan the proper honor that identifies them as someone holding that rank?

To find someone holding the Rank of Kendo Nanadan or Hachidan is simply rare. It is an achievement resulting from practicing and mastering Kendo after many years (sometimes a lifetime) of practice...

I don't see what one's ethnicity or one's skin color have anything to do with this...If we ask for their country of origin, residence or where they practice it may help to possibly contribute to help identify who they are...but skin color is completely irrelevant...

What purpose does it serve to say or identify them as, "He or she is Caucasian, holding the rank of 7 Dan?"

amatsuda

[h2o]

Also according to this Italy has one hachi-dan.
Yes, I noticed that too a few months ago. But he had a koreansounding name, so the hunt for a caucausian (or atleast non-japanese, -korean, or -chinese) seems to continue.

[Mr.Tvola]

There are definitely several 7th dan holders in Germany, from what I recall these should be Mr. Demski (also Kyoshi), Mr. Jattkowski Mr. Lehmann (also has a shogo title, but not sure with this) and Mr. Potrafki. Perhaps there are more...

[jmarsten]

If I recall correctly, I believe that there was one other recipient that year for the Shogo of Hanshi was Takuma Bunden Sensei of Salinas Kendo Dojo. Unfortunately, he passed away several years ago. His spirit continues at his Dojo with three prominent instructors; Eitoku, Onitsuka, and Minami Sensei continuing his tradition of providing leadership and instruction.
Thanks, I kept thinking I was missing someone but couldn't come up with who it was. I know or knew all the others very or fairly well but I had only met Bunden sensei a few times.


Shouldn't we give someone who has received the rank of 7 Dan or 8 Dan the proper honor that identifies them as someone holding that rank?



I don't see what one's ethnicity or one's skin color have anything to do with this...If we ask for their country of origin, residence or where they practice it may help to possibly contribute to help identify who they are...but skin color is completely irrelevant...

What purpose does it serve to say or identify them as, "He or she is Caucasian, holding the rank of 7 Dan?"
.

amatsuda

Thanks, I kept thinking I was missing someone but couldn't come up with who it was. I know or knew all the others very or fairly well but I had only met Bunden sensei a few times.

Regarding identifying them as Caucasian the following is from a different thread.

"Hakujin to tsuki yattara baka ni naru"
I would guess this answers it from Mr Inouye's post. It was truly amazing how acceptable this was.

[Paikea]

Regarding identifying them as Caucasian the following is from a different thread.

"Hakujin to tsuki yattara baka ni naru"

I would guess this answers it from Mr Inouye's post. It was truly amazing how acceptable this was.I had taken it to be a bit of sarcasm, and not at all in the same spirit as the other stuff, but - point taken.

[Inouye02]

I had taken it to be a bit of sarcasm, and not at all in the same spirit as the other stuff, but - point taken. I think it was around 1965, My grandma said something like that, I may have mispronounced it, but i think most know what i'm saying..may not be acceptable nowadays, but back then they every right to say it...she said alot of things i remember , but i dont need to say anything more..

[samurai999]

"Hakujin to tsuki yattara baka ni naru"
I would guess this answers it from Mr Inouye's post. It was truly amazing how acceptable this was.

Yes. My parents told me this a lot along with the word "koku" replacing haku.
But my parents softened their stance after a while directing things to the other asian counterparts in the asian community. Maybe they just hated everybody. At least they weren't prejudiced in their hate.... :confused:

Tim

[jmarsten]

Racism in all its forms is a wonderful thing. Fortunately it is not limited to the white community but something all of mankind can share equally. Passing it on to one's children is a real accomplishment to be proud of. When you can tie it in with religion its really neat. Double the pleasure, double the fun, hate, hate, hate, hate everyone!

[Inouye02]

Racism in all its forms is a wonderful thing. Fortunately it is not limited to the white community but something all of mankind can share equally. Passing it on to one's children is a real accomplishment to be proud of. When you can tie it in with religion its really neat. Double the pleasure, double the fun, hate, hate, hate, hate everyone!after what she went through at Heart Mountain, to come home to nothing, having to start over again, and your gonna tell me she was wrong to feel the way she did towards Americans ? maybe you should put yourself in their place, at that time, go through what they had too, I'm done.

[Curtis]

after what she went through at Heart Mountain, to come home to nothing, having to start over again, and your gonna tell me she was wrong to feel the way she did towards Americans ? maybe you should put yourself in their place, at that time, go through what they had too, I'm done.

We both have relatives who went through that and they do not feel that way. Who do you think saved the farms, etc. for them so they had something to come back to? In the face of wrong there is always a right somewhere.

[Ignatz]

My grandmother said, "Don't you worry about what other people are doing, you do what is right."

[Theodore]

I once went to a medical seminar on Bornholm, a very beautiful island in the Baltic Ocean, which has been disputed over the past 2 mellenia between Denmark, Sweden, Germany and Russia.

I was on a tour bus and we had stopped at the ruins of an old castle. Very picturesque. All of a sudden the tour guide (who was Danish) went into a huge rant about Swedish atrocities in the early 1600s. It was very jarring and very ugly and related to something that happened a very long time ago.

We all have to put the past behind us.

[Hisham]

We all have to put the past behind us.
True the past shouldn't come between good people, IMHO the past's bad experiences exist to be learned from not to be revived.

Lets get back to the 8th dan subject.

[Inouye02]

We both have relatives who went through that and they do not feel that way. Who do you think saved the farms, etc. for them so they had something to come back to? In the face of wrong there is always a right somewhere.

Ding, Ding, Ding..looks like a tag team match again, little brother stepping in again just like last time..But i have more respect for you then him, At least you came and talked to me, instead of giving evil eye from across the gym. I didnt say anything about your family, so who the F@#K gave him the right to say anything about mine,

So you had relatives in the camps ? I dont remember seeing a American name in any of the books listing the names of those interned, Tell me " who " saved the farms? was it you ? your family ? who were the ones who said , sign over your house, so when you come back it will be here, only to find out there was no home, because the " who " people sold it off, they tell you they dont feel that way, but inside of them there still is a fire burning, the older people just do " gaman " like they were taught.

So as Hisham said , Lets go back to the 8 Dan topic.

[runsyi]

Nearly every ethnic group has wronged another at one point or another. I distinctly remember getting lots of "stink eye" in my Chinese history class when we were reading The Rape of Nanking. And my ex-boyfriend's Korean mother wasn't very happy when he brought me home (even though I am only half Japanese).

But back to the regularly scheduled programming....
Of all the nanadan sensei here in Hawaii (I think there are 7 or 8), I can only think of one that wasn't born in Japan (he is of Japanese ancestry though).

[Curtis]

Ding, Ding, Ding..looks like a tag team match again, little brother stepping in again just like last time..But i have more respect for you then him, At least you came and talked to me, instead of giving evil eye from across the gym. I didnt say anything about your family, so who the F@#K gave him the right to say anything about mine,

So you had relatives in the camps ? I dont remember seeing a American name in any of the books listing the names of those interned, Tell me " who " saved the farms? was it you ? your family ? who were the ones who said , sign over your house, so when you come back it will be here, only to find out there was no home, because the " who " people sold it off, they tell you they dont feel that way, but inside of them there still is a fire burning, the older people just do " gaman " like they were taught.

So as Hisham said , Lets go back to the 8 Dan topic.

Yes, we did have relatives there, they are called inlaws. And "gaman" is in short supply in this family when it comes to this subject. They come right out and say what they feel about it.

And I have seen the books, they are full of American names of Japanese ancestry.

[Ignatz]

And my ex-boyfriend's Korean mother wasn't very happy when he brought me home (even though I am only half Japanese).

But she's just a haole.:D

(In case anyone missed it, that is wry humor. For those that don't know, haole means foreigner. Many believe it is used in a perjorative sense, much like gaijin in Japanese or goyim in Hebrew)

Oh, and Hawaii is still a U.S. state isn't it?

And why did this thread turn so ugly?

[Inouye02]

But she's just a haole.:D

(In case anyone missed it, that is wry humor. For those that don't know, haole means foreigner. Many believe it is used in a perjorative sense, much like gaijin in Japanese or goyim in Hebrew)

Oh, and Hawaii is still a U.S. state isn't it?

And why did this thread turn so ugly? Hakujin sounds better.

[waterdog]

What this whole post comes down to is someone wanting to know if their were any caucasian 8th dans. It had nothing to due with being a biggot. Japanese are considered the best right now at kendo and hold most of the 8th dan grades and we were courious if their were any caucasian 8th dans and that is all.Quit crying over something that happened many years ago.You've had the time to recover WAR is a horriable thing.Now if you really want to cry about people being a biggot go and try living in Japan for a long time and yes I can give you many written examples.
NEXT,

[Curtis]

I would be curious to know the exact number of living 8 Dan in Japan and outside. Japan I believe only holds two tests a year, Kyoto and Tokyo.

In those two tests only about 1% pass. So that means with about 1000-1500 candidates at each test we have about 30 a year pass. In the documentary about Ishida sensei (year made?) they state that only about 400 had passed since 1952(?). So we have attrition, just how many are there now?

And what is the number of outside of Japan that have passed the test?

[Ignatz]

Hakujin sounds better.

Sounds worse to me.

[Curtis]

Now for another statistic, you have the 1000-1500 testing at any given time for 8 dan. Add to that all those that are either not testing or are not eligible yet. How many 7 dan are there in Japan?

I would venture to say there may be more 7 dan in Japan than there are total kendo population in the whole rest of the world.

Would this be a valid statement or are there enough in say, Korea combined with the rest of the world to outweigh this? Would the kendojinko.com web site give us these numbers for Japan?

[h2o]

I once went to a medical seminar on Bornholm, a very beautiful island in the Baltic Ocean, which has been disputed over the past 2 mellenia between Denmark, Sweden, Germany and Russia.

I was on a tour bus and we had stopped at the ruins of an old castle. Very picturesque. All of a sudden the tour guide (who was Danish) went into a huge rant about Swedish atrocities in the early 1600s. It was very jarring and very ugly and related to something that happened a very long time ago.


Bornholm was returned to Denmark for quite a few years ago (1660, to be exact) and has been danish ever since, except during ww2 when it was occupied by Germany. So it'a a quite old dispute.
I don't know exactly how this tourguide expressed himself, but I have hard time believing that if there was any swedes about, they wouldn't mind. We are quite aware of our bloody history with the rest of the nordic countries. One of the more famous historic events is the Stockholm bloodbath, where a danish king executed some 94 people. I don't think anyone in Sweden still holds grudges to Denmark for this, and I don't think any danish people still hold grudges against swedes for what happened at Bornholm.

Seems like I am having an off-topic day :D

[Hisham]

Now for another statistic, you have the 1000-1500 testing at any given time for 8 dan. Add to that all those that are either not testing or are not eligible yet. How many 7 dan are there in Japan?

I would venture to say there may be more 7 dan in Japan than there are total kendo population in the whole rest of the world.

Would this be a valid statement or are there enough in say, Korea combined with the rest of the world to outweigh this? Would the kendojinko.com web site give us these numbers for Japan?


The IKF should do some kind of census about this.

A desperate attempt to bring this thread back on its initial track.

[Curtis]

The IKF should do some kind of census about this.

A desperate attempt to bring this thread back on its initial track.

Actually, no. I have had several discussions about this since this and the other 8 dan thread started. I would really like to know.

I have discussions about why we will probably never catch up with Japan and their total population is one of the main topics. Just look at the video of the high school tournament, hundreds just at one tournament. We have a national tournament with multiple brackets and we are smaller.

Of course the majority will quit after high school and college. But still you have a huge population to start with. Then they filter up to the 7 and 8 dan level. I would like to see a study on those numbers.

[samurai999]

Nearly every ethnic group has wronged another at one point or another. I distinctly remember getting lots of "stink eye" in my Chinese history class when we were reading The Rape of Nanking. And my ex-boyfriend's Korean mother wasn't very happy when he brought me home (even though I am only half Japanese).



Ya and I always got a "YOU KILL MY PEOPLE" from the Filipino yard duty teacher at my middle school. Then he'd "organize" the Filipino kids against me and wouldn't do a thing if they had a gang of them chasing me around school. So I unfortunately got my exercise that way.

Tim

[Neil Gendzwill]

I have discussions about why we will probably never catch up with Japan and their total population is one of the main topics.
Population and infrastructure, that's the reason. Integrating the off-topic discussion with the on: I once had a Japanese person ask me if I thought Japanese people were inherently better suited to kendo than other races. My reply was to ask if Canadians are better suited to hockey, because the disparity in numbers and infrastructure is very similar. Nearly every Canadian kid plays hockey, even if only a pick-up shinny game, and for those that are serious there is plenty of leagues and coaching available starting at age 4 or 5. The competition to make it to a Junior A team (the pro farm teams) in a small prairie city is fiercer than most countries see for Olympic qualification. So the percentage of world-class hockey players that are Canadian is astoundingly high. Same with Japan and kendo.

[Hisham]

I would like to see a study on those numbers.

It would be interesting indeed, one of the questions that i ask myself is how much the fluctuation of the "beguiner" numbers affected the numbers of nanadan in the last 20 or 30 years in Japan.

[Curtis]

Population and infrastructure, that's the reason. Integrating the off-topic discussion with the on: I once had a Japanese person ask me if I thought Japanese people were inherently better suited to kendo than other races. My reply was to ask if Canadians are better suited to hockey, because the disparity in numbers and infrastructure is very similar. Nearly every Canadian kid plays hockey, even if only a pick-up shinny game, and for those that are serious there is plenty of leagues and coaching available starting at age 4 or 5. The competition to make it to a Junior A team (the pro farm teams) in a small prairie city is fiercer than most countries see for Olympic qualification. So the percentage of world-class hockey players that are Canadian is astoundingly high. Same with Japan and kendo.

We have discussed that part before. I think the statistics would be really interesting. There was an article about 10 years ago in Kendo Jidai with a lot of this in it. I do not have that one though.

The odds against becoming an 8 dan are really incredible. But the top level of most things are the same.

[runsyi]

Oh, and Hawaii is still a U.S. state isn't it?


Yes, it is still a U.S. state, but different federation.