winning or equal fun?

[eirenaios]

hi, I've got a question on my mind and I am wondering how all you feel about this.
When we have a team shiai, our sensei is all about winning and makes one 'good' team and one 'less good' team. it's not that there's anything wrong with this but when I pay a lot of money to go to another country for kendo I hope I can play as much as I can. when doing individual shiai it's not likely to win against people who've played for years (I'm ikkyu at the moment) and when the teams are equal there's a much bigger chance that we can play a couple of games. okay, so the chance to become 1st is a lot smaller but this way everyone has fun and has a actual chance to show their kendo and gain more experience.
so how do you guys think about this? what do you prefer? one team that has a chance to win and one that has (almost) no chance to win at all or equal teams so no first place but everyone has a chance?

[ahmed61086]

You have to understand, that this is much bigger than you. Your 'A'(this is what we call it in our dojang) team is fighting for you dojo. This realy means a lot. Seriously, your lucky they let you fight in the team matches at all since you werent able to make it to the 'A' team. So in actuality, their are letting you have that fun factor which you are speaking of. Lets face, your dojo winning, is more important than "everyone getting a chance to play". You will get that chance, when you make the 'A' team. Not only that, this makes you want to get better so that one day you will be able to play for te 'A' team. It achieves many goals, and hopefully the goal of winning the tournament. This is just my opinion of course, so take it with a grain of salt. Peace.

Ahmed.

P.S. I am still unable to fight for that team(I am not good enough), but I would rather see my dojo win without me, than lose with me.

[eirenaios]

I get what you are saying. I agree that they play for the dojo and all. but when they're the only ones who get to do shiai and we don't it's very hard to ever get better than them, right? or should we just focus on individual first and later on team matches?

[h2o]

I get what you are saying. I agree that they play for the dojo and all. but when they're the only ones who get to do shiai and we don't it's very hard to ever get better than them, right? or should we just focus on individual first and later on team matches?
Can you not make two teams? One A-, and one B-team. You will probably not win, but you will at least be fighting a few matches extra.

[bullet08]

when selected for team, team should come first, even if it's for 'B' team. if one feels that they can not fully commit to team competition, one should tell sensei about it and stay out of it.

pete

[MikeW]

Definitely concentrate on individual shiai, but if you have opportunity to play on B team for dojo also consider yourself lucky. Most dojo will always put their best people on the A team. At your level you should be concentrating on making your kendo better so you can be chosen to represent your dojo on the A team. It is not a right, but an honor to represent your dojo and you have to earn it.

[Ignatz]

Heck, we had an "A" team and a "B" team in a tournament in Texas and the "B" team only had 4 players and had to forfeit one match every round. Eventually the "B" team and the "A" team met in the quarter final. "A" won but they had to work for it, I think they won by one point plus the forfeit. The "A" team won the tournament.
NYC Kendo might have 4 teams in a tournament and you never know which one is going to win.
Play the best that you can. You will be doing kendo for years and years to come. Have patience.

[The great I AM]

but when they're the only ones who get to do shiai and we don't it's very hard to ever get better than them, right?

Well, the wonderful thing about kendo is that we use this concept called "practise" a couple of times a week to get better.......

[eirenaios]

well, usually there is a B team, even a C team if there are enough people who want to compete but the point is that the B team usually consists of people who are lucky if they even win one match (including me, so no disrespect). it's not that I object to one good team cause and of course it's fun if they win, but it does mean the others won't be playing much, and won't be getting much experience. I'm just curious what you would choose for. I'm not saying there shouldn't be a 'A' team but I've heard other sensei who think it's fun for the beginners to be playing kendo in shiai and therefor pick equal teams, and remember, equal teams can come quite far but it's just a little less likely to become first. heck, sometimes even the 'B' team comes further than the 'A' team:p there are also some team matches where there should always be a kyu or less on first place. I think this is a good way because the kyu's will allways be playing against each other so they have a good chance of winning and they even have a chance to become first. well, what I'm trying to say is that for me kendo is about fun and playing as much as I can and not about winning. I also think it makes beginners more enthousiastic to keep playing kendo and letting them know they are also a part of the dojo and it's not only about the 'good' guys. I know others might disagree and that's allright. I'm just wondering about other opinions. thanks:)

[eirenaios]

Well, the wonderful thing about kendo is that we use this concept called "practise" a couple of times a week to get better.......
yes, I agree. But shiai experience is a lot different than training experience. especially because there are not alot of people in our dojo so we're always doing jigeiko against the same little group of people.

[mingshi]

...shiai experience is a lot different than training experience. especially because there are not alot of people in our dojo so we're always doing jigeiko against the same little group of people.
For experience - try winning shiai keiko in your own dojo and work your way up the ladder then...!!

[Kendo ISB]

I've been on "A" for my dojo a few years running...and personally I think it's kinda sad on how the system works. Because the mentality is "win for the team", and often that resorts to certain tactics such as attempting to purposely draw a match and let the strongest kendoka take the win. it could be draw, draw, draw, draw, win, but hey, it's still a win.

And really, the more shiai you do the more calm u get. Altho for every final i've been in, it's also stressful.

[KhawMengLee]

In any sports you have to work to be on the A squad. Its not a bleeding heart contest, eh? Aw, let him play...he looks so sad on the bench. The A squad/team represents the dojo. Its the pride of the Dojo, the best going out there.

You have to earn that place not be given it. Anything given can be taken for granted. Anything earned is cherished a lifetime.

My Sensei was telling me this little bit about Eiga Sensei and how during the WKC before Santa Clara Eiga was on the Japanese team but the coaches felt he wasn't good enough. He was on the team but was on the bench and didn't fight and he felt real shit about it and felt snubbed. But instead of wallowing self pity he trained real hard and finally got on to win an All Japan and a memorable victory in a WKC.

[MikeW]

I think what you may be forgetting is that even the more experienced people that are chosen for the A team need to have the opportunity to shiai and gain more experience against players of their own skill level of higher. Kyu ranks are not the only ones that are still learning kendo. Kendo is a life long learning experience and those on the A team are no different. IMHO I still beleive that you must earn the right to be the A team... this does not always mean by being the best, but also about who contributes to the dojo in practice as senpai etc, as well as those that practice very hard. Sometimes a sensei will indeed reward a less experienced player by putting them on the A team for their dedication to practice or efforts to make the dojo better in some way. But typically the best kenshi will be chosen for the A team in most dojos, and that is the way I would likely do it also if I were the sensei.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I've been on "A" for my dojo a few years running...and personally I think it's kinda sad on how the system works. Because the mentality is "win for the team", and often that resorts to certain tactics such as attempting to purposely draw a match and let the strongest kendoka take the win. it could be draw, draw, draw, draw, win, but hey, it's still a win.
If you think that's sad, you don't understand the concept of "team". It's not 5 individual matches where you're each trying to win for yourself, it's 5 matches for the team win. If you get put up against a strong guy and coach says "go for the tie", that's what you do. If you get up a point and the team doesn't need 2, you coast and get the 1-point win, you don't bolster your ego with 2 points. And if you think winning isn't everything, fine - stay in the dojo and practice for yourself, and stay out of the shiai-jo.

[eirenaios]

And if you think winning isn't everything, fine - stay in the dojo and practice for yourself, and stay out of the shiai-jo.
wow, never thought you would say this. so I guess kendo is not about the fun to play against other people and to gain experience and meet interesting people with the same hobby as yours. my fault. I don't know why some of you are so defensive. it's not that I wrote all this because I am angry because I'm not at the 'A' team but I was just wondering how you guys think about this. there are different opinions you know.

[Neil Gendzwill]

wow, never thought you would say this. so I guess kendo is not about the fun to play against other people and to gain experience and meet interesting people with the same hobby as yours.
Kendo is about all those things, but when it comes to team matches, people want to win. You can get all the benefits you are talking about from visiting dojo, attending seminars, attending godo-keiko and participating in tournaments on an individual basis. But you also seem to feel you are owed some more experience at the expense of your team-mates who would like to win for their dojo. "Please, let's make two mediocre teams instead of one good one so that maybe I can have an extra match before we lose".

I think you should continue to practice hard, and maybe one day you can make the A team.

[KhawMengLee]

wow, never thought you would say this. so I guess kendo is not about the fun to play against other people and to gain experience and meet interesting people with the same hobby as yours. my fault. I don't know why some of you are so defensive. it's not that I wrote all this because I am angry because I'm not at the 'A' team but I was just wondering how you guys think about this. there are different opinions you know.

Neil Sensei has been doing kendo a fair while longer than most of us. There are those that say...oh, its just a game, just have fun. But when you train day in and out to be on a team and then make it to an international competition, you don't just say...'ah, winning isn't everything.'

Do you think Harada was thinking that during the All Japan's when he lost to Miyazaki in 1998 or that he was thinking "oh, I don't want to win" when he won last year?

Neil was also talking about how in a team match its more than just attack attack win win. There are tactics to playing the team shiai match. I think most senior kendoka get a bit frustrated when people with less experience make comments that really are quite ignorant or immature...

A coach may say go for draw. There's a reason to this...my coach pointed out that the guy I was fighting was waaaaay stronger but I should try to keep in tsuba zariai and play the draw or hiki-waza. It helped greatly when he pointed this out...

Team shiai is about teamwork and tactics not the individual.

[NetGuy]

If you go to a tournament - you go to win.

Have enough respect for your opponents to believe that and give it your best - if not, dont waste their time.

[eirenaios]

Kendo is about all those things, but when it comes to team matches, people want to win. You can get all the benefits you are talking about from visiting dojo, attending seminars, attending godo-keiko and participating in tournaments on an individual basis. But you also seem to feel you are owed some more experience at the expense of your team-mates who would like to win for their dojo. "Please, let's make two mediocre teams instead of one good one so that maybe I can have an extra match before we lose".

I think you should continue to practice hard, and maybe one day you can make the A team.

yes, you're right, but I don't only speak for myself but for all the people who train a lot but can't get on the A team because they haven't been doing it long enough etc. but are eager to compete. and don't forget that the 'mediocre' teams can get quite far but the chance to become first is smaller. I get what you are saying and I consider myself proud when our team wins of course. I will (and am) practise as much as I can and hope to be able to compete as much as I can. sometimes it just sucks when you want to test your skills in shiai but I get that I just have to do that in individual matches.

[mark]

One of the best team matches I have seen, was a draw won by an nikyu fighting a godan :) helping a weaker team win the match.

I find that shiai is an extremely important part of kendo. It is one of the few times that I can test my training to see how my kendo has changes and discover new paths for improvement. In shiai, I fight to win! If I don't, I have wasted my time, and have not shown my opponent proper respect. Besides, if I fight as strong as I can and loose I might be able to identify what needs to go on my todo list.

Similarly, in team matches your sensei can contrast his dojo with his peers and try to discover how to improve his training methods. When he set up a team match, he fight to win! He fields the best team he can and uses it to judge the progress his dojo has made over the years. Shiai is where the rubber hits the road.

[MikeW]

Not to be overbearing, but you do not...
only speak for myself but for all the people who train a lot but can't get on the A team because they haven't been doing it long enough etc. but are eager to compete.
All of us have been in the 'starting out' phase of kendo but I warrant a lot did not mind not being chosen for A team competition because we understand what it means and respect that (Not that I am saying we might not have desired being on the A team, and I'm not really trying to say you don't have respect or anything, but obviously you do have a slightly different viewpoint). Instead of grousing that we didn't get many matches we would practice hard and do individual shiai and go to seminars etc to get our kendo to a point where we might be chosen. It is more of an honor that way.. something you have worked hard at. You say you want to have more opportunity to have match play, but don't you think that you are stealing that opportunity from the more experienced players that have put in the time and practice that have a better chance of winning as a team for your dojo than if you put forth an A team made up of B players (with a few A's mixed in maybe)?

[ahmed61086]

You know, indivial tournament are a great way of learning too. Yeh, you can only lose once, but you can lean A LOT from that loss. I know i learned a lot from my first tournament, and i actually regret winning the second tournamnent i went to because, you dont learn a lot winning, and I became very complacent. Complacency is one of mans worst enemies. Losing is the best solution ;)

[Lloromannic]

I'd say it also depends on the tournament. My dojo hosts 2 goodwill tournaments throughout the year and the Mexico City one. For the goodwill the top players are split into different teams so everyone has their fun, however for the Mexico City taikai it's the best people in one team and I see no reason to stop that.

There is no "I" in "team"

[Neil Gendzwill]

That's true enough. We run a small tournament as part of our seminar every year and recognise that in the mudansha division this is many people's first tournament. So instead of having a straight elimination, we run 3-person pools to feed the draw. This way everyone gets at least two fights.

[eirenaios]

I'd say it also depends on the tournament. My dojo hosts 2 goodwill tournaments throughout the year and the Mexico City one. For the goodwill the top players are split into different teams so everyone has their fun, however for the Mexico City taikai it's the best people in one team and I see no reason to stop that.

There is no "I" in "team"
yes! but that is what I meant! of course the A team should be with the best players in the national championships or anything important as that. I couldn't agree more! I guess I should have said that in the beginning.

and I agree that there is no I in team. but that's the fun part I think. you're playing for everyone else too, not just yourself and it's different because of that.

[tattooedasshole]

There is no "I" in "team"
But there is an "I" in "win". Sorry, couldn't help it.:lick:


Team matches are a way of showing how good your dojo is. As such the best should be on that team. Work hard, and you may be able to join them one day.
I've played for our dojo's "B" team a couple of times. Sure, we don't get as many matches as the "A team" does, but we aren't the ones really carrying the dojo's name. They have to fight hard to make the dojo look as good as possible, the rest of us are just fighting hard.

[T.Lee]

when you put out a team to represent your dojo, then you put out your BEST team. so its typically the best 5. the goal is to WIN, and show your best kendo is better then the other dojo's best kendo.

if you have more than 5 competitors, enough to make up another team, great. form another team, get some experience. but why would the goal be so that everyone gets more matches together?

one conceivable situation might be if you had enough good players, or a few great players that you knew that half of them could hold up the whole teams on their own, then you could make TWO kickass teams, to play both sides of the bracket and knockout twice as many teams. however, even then, id still just make one awesome team, and make a good team with the rest.

[Washington]

shiai experience is a lot different than training experience. especially because there are not alot of people in our dojo so we're always doing jigeiko against the same little group of people.
This has some advantages I have noticed.. our dojo is rather isolated also. Because we face the same people every week it makes you work harder. That waza that worked last week isn't going to this week because everyone you are up against today just spent the last week working on the counter. Each practice you have to shake up the waza bag and pull out something new in your practice keiko. Facing the same people all the time doesn't allow you to sit back and relax in a safety zone of comfortable moves.

For your topic question I think having an A and B team would be the way to go with the thought of Better / Second String to win the tournament.

I try and aproach my team match like a job. I got a job to do.. buckle down and get it done and hope the boss notices and puts me in for a raise next job (spot on team next tournament). So being on the dojo team is already a victory of a sorts before you even walk out into the court.

Individuals don't bug me.. that's fun. 3 out of the 4 tournaments I was in last year.. bam.. eliminated in the first round. Had lots of fun and laughs and took tons of notes on what to work on with my kendo. No worries.

5 team matches in those 4 tournaments. 4 ties in 4 of those matches.. I know a tie isn't a loss but it's still durn annoying. The one match that I gave up a 1-0 loss against the team to.. now that bugs me. Still bugs me.

I agree that there is allot of experience that you gain from tournament that you can't get from just the dojo. But having an A and B team with the thought of winning in mind lets you explore different aspects of that tournament experience.

And don't count out your B team either, even if it is unrestricted ranks. Our Sr. team with:
1 -1kyu
1 -3kyu
3 -4kyu
won our first match and got to the second round at one tournament... not exactly winning top honors for the day but sure felt like it :) You get better over time going up against people who hand your ass to you gift wrapped as opposed to people equal or lesser in skill than you.

[Kendo-Militia]

[And if you think winning isn't everything, fine - stay in the dojo and practice for yourself, and stay out of the shiai-jo.[/quote]

If winning our losing isn't important, chances are you'll never know what it feels like to win. Just keep practicing at your dojo and don't compete.

It's ok, competeing is not for everyone and there's more to Kendo than just competing.

[Kendo-Militia]

There is no "I" in "team"[/quote]

Yes but there sure is a "ME" hahaha

[samurai999]

Well if you are in a tournament there is one distinct goal when you do compete. To win. Same is said for a NBA matchup, March Madness (Collegiate bball tournament in the US), a friendly pick up game of bball or maybe a flag football game in the mud. Its competition. There are different levels of competition. The national level, international level and local levels. Why do you think Team USA (and any other team participating in the WKC) goes through rigorous tryout and practice processes? If you don'tlike the competition, then the only thing you can do is practice. But like everything, a competition is where you display what you have been taught and what you can do with the talent you have.

You take things seriously during the match, but when all is said and done, you look back at the tournament and ask yourself if you had fun and if you learned something. I learned something at my last tournament, which was..

Don't use the same 'ol stuff with ppl who know how you play.

Tim

[nodachi]

The point of the A team is to show your dojos best and motivate the people who are not on the A team to strive to that level. If you can't participate on the A team, it is always great to participate on the B team. I usually see in tournaments that the scraps from all the other dojos are called to a corner of the room to make miscelaneous teams so everyone still gets a chance to participate. Or sometimes I will hear over the PA system that so and so dojo needs a 5th person for their D team. People will float right on over there because these are the things that allow for participation. Yes, these teams get knocked out quickly, but even one extra match is fun. I don't think the flaw is in teams wanting to show their best, but in how the tournaments are organized so more people can participate for at least that one extra match. Granted if there are tons of people at the tournament it would take too long to run, but if you can afford the time, organize sheep to be slaughtered teams. At least they still get the chance to have another match and get more tournament experience. I think experience going against people who you know can crush you are what really test us on the emotional/mental level anyway. Eventually we will end up in the sandan and everyone above division where everyone but the best expect to be slaughtered. Creating more sheep to be slaughtered teams prepares people for that eventual fate and then when they get to that point they will have learned how to compete so they can survive a little longer. And if the A team is not looking like it will need new members anytime soon, make the B team just as strong, and the same goes for the C team, etc. Tournaments can be frustrating sometimes so you have to be careful with what type of attitude you go into the experience with so you have fun if you win and keep going, learn something important if you lose and are disappointed, but at least you learned something, but if you don't guard yourself and expect to be playing lots of matches and get eliminated quickly, it makes for a grumpy day. It's not so much an issue of people wanting to win as it is how people mentally prepare themselves for the mental highs and lows of tournament day.

[Inouye02]

There is no "I" in "team"

Yes but there sure is a "ME" hahaha[/quote]not in yours, you forgot to show up in Sept ..hahahah

[moocow65]

No "I" in "TEAM" but there sure is an "I" in "WIN"
and an "I" in "SCI"

As far as the issue at hand. I think people should be grateful that they are at least on a team. When I was growing up, all tournaments only had one team per dojo. Since then, there are multiple teams from a single dojo, which means more people have an opportunity for more matches and experience.
and.... Winning is 100 times more fun than losing.

It ain't no fun if the homies can't have none

[Kendo-Militia]

Yes but there sure is a "ME" hahahanot in yours, you forgot to show up in Sept ..hahahah[/quote]

All right you got me. But hey when I'm there I'm the most Electrifying Sports Entertainer. How many times have I made you say, " Damn!!! or F**K," during a match. Atleast give me that.

[JByrd]

[And if you think winning isn't everything, fine - stay in the dojo and practice for yourself, and stay out of the shiai-jo.


If winning our losing isn't important, chances are you'll never know what it feels like to win. Just keep practicing at your dojo and don't compete.

It's ok, competeing is not for everyone and there's more to Kendo than just competing.
What if you don't care about winning shiai, but you desire the knowledge, experience, and skill that comes from competition?

Is the desire to win required to participate in shiai, or is a desire to learn enough?

Is there anything competition can teach that we can't learn from regular dojo practice?

Finding the answers to these questions is very important to me. At 3 Dan, it looks like shiai and shimpan experience is something I must acquire to be considered seriously for 4 Dan. But I really don't care about winning shiai at all, so should I figure on being a 3 Dan forever?

[samurai999]

What if you don't care about winning shiai, but you desire the knowledge, experience, and skill that comes from competition?

Is the desire to win required to participate in shiai, or is a desire to learn enough?

Is there anything competition can teach that we can't learn from regular dojo practice?

Finding the answers to these questions is very important to me. At 3 Dan, it looks like shiai and shimpan experience is something I must acquire to be considered seriously for 4 Dan. But I really don't care about winning shiai at all, so should I figure on being a 3 Dan forever?

Hmmm now that I think about it. I remember at tournaments, ppl would talk about other ppls auras or ki. If you have "competitive fire", then the opponent will notice that and will "feel it". I've played senseis that look totally calm in practice, but look and feel different when they are in shiai. There is a marked difference. For example, if you were to play Eiga sensei at practice or any sensei for that matter, it is not that he isn't going hard or anything, but their spirit inside the dojo is different compared to when they are in the AJKC or a shiai. Its a different mindset, but still pretty intense.

Plus, like I mentioned, I think it is a place to display what you were taught. A test of sorts. Plus, it get you to understand why things don't work in certain situations or what you can do to improve something that another person can do better.

Tim

[misterkurukuru]

did anyone see the 230lbs line-backer take out the 140 lbs place kicker at mori hai bowl 2006?

winning is fun, but its not the only fun thing out there.

[samurai999]

did anyone see the 230lbs line-backer take out the 140 lbs place kicker at mori hai bowl 2006?

winning is fun, but its not the only fun thing out there.

Yes. I had courtside seats for Martin Grammatica vs. Ronnie Lott (lott was a saftey but he creamed ppl in football). That was one most electrifying move.

Tim

[misterkurukuru]

funny thing, there is a Grammatica at CM dojo. he and the dude named BONG made my day

[Neil Gendzwill]

What if you don't care about winning shiai, but you desire the knowledge, experience, and skill that comes from competition?
Well in that case you have to care, if not specifically about winning, then about improving or about doing your best in public. Which means winning, if only to be able to get another match.

Is the desire to win required to participate in shiai, or is a desire to learn enough?
Is there anything competition can teach that we can't learn from regular dojo practice?
Aren't these two kind of tied together? One of the things we can get from shiai that we can't get from keiko is performing under pressure. If you don't care about the win, no pressure.


At 3 Dan, it looks like shiai and shimpan experience is something I must acquire to be considered seriously for 4 Dan. But I really don't care about winning shiai at all, so should I figure on being a 3 Dan forever?
I don't think so. My competition experience is quite scant and I struggled through it.

[Inouye02]

not in yours, you forgot to show up in Sept ..hahahah

All right you got me. But hey when I'm there I'm the most Electrifying Sports Entertainer. How many times have I made you say, " Damn!!! or F**K," during a match. Atleast give me that.i'd say Misterkurukuru has you beat right now, On sunday it was like watching Arena Football along the sidelines, the tackle he made was electricfying...i say damn when they score on you and f#$k when you lose .bahahahah

[JSchmidt]

To win, you need to want to win. I don't quite have that yet, but a little more than a year ago, I hated shiai. Always felt that I underperformed horrendously and never got close to doing the kendo that I knew I was capable of.
Finally, after scraping a win against a kyu-grade, I got so angry with myself that I managed to give myself a big enough kick in the butt, that I started doing kendo whilst in the shiai-jo. This lead to slightly better results, which lead to more confidence, etc. Last time, I barely recall being nervous and supposedly did some of my best shiai-kendo ever.
But again, a little more than a year ago, I mainly went to shiai for the experience, as I knew it was a 'good thing to do' and I still recommend anyone to go, whether they like it or not!.

[Kendo-Militia]

i'd say Misterkurukuru has you beat right now, On sunday it was like watching Arena Football along the sidelines, the tackle he made was electricfying...i say damn when they score on you and f#$k when you lose .bahahahah

Damn was making a guy submit not enough? How guys have you seen get dropped and then say, " No Mas"? All right I'm gonna have to do the 'Rock Bottom " and the "people's Elbow " on the next match.

[Kendo-Militia]

Finding the answers to these questions is very important to me. At 3 Dan, it looks like shiai and shimpan experience is something I must acquire to be considered seriously for 4 Dan. But I really don't care about winning shiai at all, so should I figure on being a 3 Dan forever?[/quote]

There is nothing wrong with enjoying Kendo for what it is without wanting to win. What do you want out of achieving the rankof 4 dan? What is so important about it. Help me understand why a person who doesn't care about winning or losing in Kendo cares about rank?

[nodachi]

"Help me understand why a person who doesn't care about winning or losing in Kendo cares about rank?"

For some people, winning tournaments means very little. I like them because they are fun, but I don't want to commit seppuku if I lose.

Rank on the other hand is a bit like how you check your progress towards true kendo or at least shinsa kendo. I know true kendo is a bit of a loaded word. To fail an exam means you are lacking the next step in your kendo progress. To lose a tournament means nothing. Winning a competition is not the same as passing a grading, which is more like an ability check of your progress. Thus, rank matters to some because it represents your progress and it is sad or frustrating or whatever to think that your progress is halted.

[moocow65]

"Help me understand why a person who doesn't care about winning or losing in Kendo cares about rank?"

For some people, winning tournaments means very little. I like them because they are fun, but I don't want to commit seppuku if I lose.

Rank on the other hand is a bit like how you check your progress towards true kendo or at least shinsa kendo. I know true kendo is a bit of a loaded word. To fail an exam means you are lacking the next step in your kendo progress. To lose a tournament means nothing. Winning a competition is not the same as passing a grading, which is more like an ability check of your progress. Thus, rank matters to some because it represents your progress and it is sad or frustrating or whatever to think that your progress is halted.

I agree that shinsa kendo is true kendo in a way, but for how many of us, is shinsa kendo really our own true kendo? The last time I took a shinsa, I had to do itto instead of nito because people thought itwas unfair to do it in a shinsa. But that's a whole different issue. Even when I was doing itto and took a shinsa, I had to conform to the "jiji" way of kendo, because that's what all the "jijis" wanted to see. For me, this was definitely not my true kendo.
In a way I believe that passing a shinsa is almost the same as winning a shiai. Sure, it depends on your skill, but ALOT of it depends on the skill of your opponent too. And if someone passes a 8-dan test, who's to say that that same person would definitely pass the 8-dan test again a year later? If you're "on fire" at a tournament, you'll win. I think, to some degree, it is the same for a shinsa. If you're "on fire" at a shinsa, then you'll probably pass. I don't think a single shinsa can truly represent a person's kendo skill for a certain rank. And again, it also heavily depends on whom you go against. You might look good on your own, but your opponent can make you look that much better..... or worse. But whatever, that's just my opinion.
3-dan fo' life!

[ben]

I also hate competition, but I do have to deal with it. Don't know if I've totally dealt with it yet. As Noma Hisashi said, shiai is the modern day equivalent of shinken shobu, and as such, should be the main focus of your efforts. So you need to be able to face it like a samurai had to face his own imminent death. Doesn't mean you have to love it, but just deal with it, make your peace with it. Try out for your squad or team. Do your best, don't sabotage yourself. Learn how to keep it together and look strong even when you're sh1tting your pants. Surely this is some of the best kind of "ningen keisei" (character development) you can get from kendo.

And if you're not able to make the team, approach each jigeiko with the idea of winning "shodachi"--the first cut.

OTOH Inoue Shigeaki (Hanshi 8 dan) said at last year's Asian Zone Shinpan Seminar, "After 50 of kendo I'm still undecided about whether a constant focus on winning is a good or bad thing." The pivot word here being "constant".

b

[The great I AM]

I agree that shinsa kendo is true kendo in a way, but for how many of us, is shinsa kendo really our own true kendo? The last time I took a shinsa, I had to do itto instead of nito because people thought itwas unfair to do it in a shinsa. But that's a whole different issue. Even when I was doing itto and took a shinsa, I had to conform to the "jiji" way of kendo, because that's what all the "jijis" wanted to see. For me, this was definitely not my true kendo.

I'm not sure that it is physically possible for me to agree with this more. A man after my own heart.

[Paburo]

hi, I've got a question on my mind and I am wondering how all you feel about this.
When we have a team shiai, our sensei is all about winning and makes one 'good' team and one 'less good' team. it's not that there's anything wrong with this but when I pay a lot of money to go to another country for kendo I hope I can play as much as I can. when doing individual shiai it's not likely to win against people who've played for years (I'm ikkyu at the moment) and when the teams are equal there's a much bigger chance that we can play a couple of games. okay, so the chance to become 1st is a lot smaller but this way everyone has fun and has a actual chance to show their kendo and gain more experience.
so how do you guys think about this? what do you prefer? one team that has a chance to win and one that has (almost) no chance to win at all or equal teams so no first place but everyone has a chance?

but you're only ikkyu! when i was ikkyu i would often be on the B team... back then once i got to be on the A team for nationals... on the bench. GREAT. but eventually i did better on individual championships, and on daily keiko, so my senseis upgraded me to team A, lol. that has happened to plenty ppl who has posted in this thread i'm sure.

i can tell you, if you train constantly and show them you're good competing by your own, you will make it to team A. and don't complain for not having enough 'shiai' experience. think of every jigeiko match as 'shiai' instead. do lots of ippon shoubu with your mates. imagine the shiajo lines and stay inside them. imagine shimpan positions and going for a clean cut ippon that would raise them flags.

if you directly ask your sensei to put you on a team with better ppl than you, that's a bit like saying 'hey, i'm not strong enough and it would be cool if you could put me with better ppl so i can win something and/or pass more rounds, sensei!'. that's a bit shameful in my opinion. perhaps you should think instead 'if i become the dojo's strongest that jiji will have to make me taishô, dammit' :D

also, remember that a chain is as strong as its weakest link. do you really want to be the weakest link on a team? i usually hate that. if they lose cause i'm not up to it or good enough to match and level my team mates i'd feel miserable, specially if they lose cause of my poor performance. that happened last time and let me tell you it's not a good or pleasant thing at all. in team B or C you can be a hero even if you don't do that well. and even if you screw up not many ppl will care. but on TEAM A, YOU WILL BE THE DISGRACE OF YOUR DOJO FOR THE SLIGHTEST MISTAKE. can you handle this responsability?

[ben]

I'm not sure that it is physically possible for me to agree with this more. A man after my own heart.

I, for one, would like to see the child of this union!

b :P

[dohrt]

I am just a lowly novice at this thing called Kendo, but in the few Shiai I've been to, I've been very disturbed, at least, by the level of mudansha kendo (and even shodan in some cases).

Kendo just seems so completely different at Shiai. I know, this should be expected, because in keiko, those better than you aren't trying to spank you within an inch of your life and own your very soul with that one inch of kensen in the center - that only comes out in shiai.

No, I'm talking about one's kendo actually changing. What is good form and beautiful kendo to watch becomes wobly form, with swaying body, different chudan, and kote hits that are like watching someone play racquetball. And blocking. And . . . OH MY . . . in a couple of shiai, I was just completely stunned at how much people block (without any attack).

Maybe it's ignorance, or naivete, or something lacking on my part. I'm sure it is, in fact. But where I train, noone blocks. It just doesn't happen. Ok, sensei or even the sandan/nidan crowd will occaisionally pull a kaeshi-do just to keep you on your toes (and of course, not just a block, but an attack coming from a block, not much different than suriage or nuki waza - just another opportunity to exploit, to create an effective strike). And sure, if I had any skill at all, any semblance of Do hasuji or ki-ken-tai at all, I'd be all over the people blocking instinctively every time I even so much as hinted at a men strike. But alas, I am a novice with no technique, skill, or experience to speak of, and cannot seem to take advantage of the opening for attack that is offered to me at those times. In that sense, I welcome the chance to get some "practice" at something I never see in keiko. But I digress.

Let's forget my limited and ignorant perspective here. Let's ignore the fact that I have no business making any kind of criticism whatsoever (I won't argue that).

My personal intuition is that trying to win *is* important. I do subscribe to the idea that shiai offers the opportunity to be under pressure, to "want" something. I believe strongly that spirit is good, and is only developed when we commit fully, when we push ourselves as hard as we can, and when we go after what we want, with gusto, with seme/zanshin, but most of all, with that abstract and feral level of consciousness that seems to evade rationality, that doesn't involve calculation, that lacks the friction of active control, and just *is*. Wu Wei. Zen. Whatever. My ideal of that is just making it happen by force of will, experience (lack of effort, "knowing" the most efficient and effective path without having to "try"), and a finely tuned connection between your raw emotion and spirit, and how that manifests in the physical world.

When I do shiai, I *want* to win. I want to win BADLY. Some of my best spirit (!ever!) comes out in Shiai. However, I don't block. I don't try to be all flip-floppy dodging turning my head and scrunching my shoulders and having everything go off center because I don't want to get hit. I don't fear getting hit in shiai. My goal in shiai, unfettered by any team need, isn't to not get it, it's to hit. My dream, above all dreams, is to hit a perfect Men in a shiai. But that will probably never happen, since I can't even come close to hitting a perfect Men in keiko, and could easily spend the rest of my life and still never do that. But back to the point (sorry, I get sidetracked on tangents way too easily).

If I had a coach who told me to block, I'd act as I was instructed, but - that is not how I've trained, so I'd probably screw it up. What's more, if I "won" a draw against a superior opponent just because I was able to block their strikes and prevent them from making a point, even though I didn't have a snowball's chance at a point myself, I guess I don't really understand what that gets me.

In fact, I did once fight a godan in a team match. Our team didn't have a chance anyway, and our sensei just said, "if you can last 30 seconds, that's something - just do your best". I couldn't have lasted two seconds, but my opponent had mercy or amusement or something. He waited about a minute before completely owning me for two points in about two seconds. It was a tremendous experience for me and I learned a lot about seme, center, and most importantly about how it feels to face someone who you know *WILL* kill you (just a matter of time). You can't get that in keiko, godan or no - the mentality is different in keiko.

But, I didn't change my kendo - I just focused on it as hard as I could - the same as I did in keiko. I didn't try to block, didn't try to just tsubazerai every chance I had, didn't try to do anything but do what I've been training to do - have ki-ken-tai-ichi, have a good cut, show zanshin (my undoing, hehe), and just do good kendo. I gave everything I had against that godan. He probably doesn't even remember it, and he certainly didn't have to work at all to beat me. It was probably amusing to him. Nonetheless, I felt that I gained more from the experience than I would have if I'd have tried to change my kendo to "win" for the team. Yea, I could have tried to block when he finally got tired of playing with me. It wouldn't have made any difference (I know this), but philosophically it still begs the question . . .

As a noobie beginner wannabe kendoka, all I ask of you wiser folks is this - is winning so important that you should radically change everything you do in keiko to something different in shiai? Where is the line (if there is one at all) between "winning" versus maintaining your kendo (especially to those who feel they cannot do *their* kendo in shinsa, how do you feel about shiai versus keiko - is one more *your* kendo, or are they both transparent displays of that?) ?

What if you knew your opponent's shoulder was dislocated in a previous match, and you could "miss" a tsuki that would aggravate it, or even re-injure it, enough to make them have to bow out? Would that be worth the "win" ? Ok, so maybe you take a hansuko, but who cares, you won, right?

I mean, I would like to think that noone would condone that kind of intention (since we've all seen "Karate Kid" hehehe), so I would think there has to be a line somewhere - some point where "winning" loses value, some cost that is too great to pay for the result.

Or is that just an issue with the mudansha crowd? When I watched the sandan+ division, my my, I was astounded. There was actually time for someone to take center, there was actually a visible conversation between the kensen, there was actually seme I could see, and amazingly, it looked just like how the sandan+ crowd looks at my dojo in keiko, only better - stronger. Solid posture, fast strikes, but pure beauty to behold. No blocking without attacking, no head-dodging, no shoulders funky and off center, just pure unbridled spirit driving on the same foundation I am accustomed to in such players.

One of our dojo sensei commented, last time we all went to a shiai (mudansha), was that our kendo looked different - but it shouldn't - he said that part of what we were practicing and gaining improvement at in the shiai was working to make shiai, shinsa, and keiko all one - ki-ken-tai-ichi in another manifestation. This really was apparent even moreso when I returned to Keiko in the couple of weeks that followed. What a contrast.

Again, I am ignorant, novice, unqualified to state even what I have already said, so I apologize in advance. Thank you for your tolerance and letting me "practice" my perception of things here :)

[nodachi]

Wow, you get the award for the longest post ever! :) And no pasting of other quotes either, that was all you!

"What if you knew your opponent's shoulder was dislocated in a previous match, and you could "miss" a tsuki that would aggravate it, or even re-injure it, enough to make them have to bow out? Would that be worth the "win" ? Ok, so maybe you take a hansuko, but who cares, you won, right? "

Taking advantage of an opponent's weakness, for example striking from farther out because you could reach but your opponent can't, is totally different from taking advantage of an opponent's weakness due to injury by causing more injury.

I think shiai is an imperfect being. Frequently we use shinpan who are new to shinpaning, even good shinpan are subjective in their judging, and a whole boat load of issues that make shiai imperfect. I think some of the issues of blocking and such come about to give yourself a chance to survive and last a few rounds in the imperfect shiai. You can be "cheated" (for lack of a better word) if you stick to pure kendo, some other person makes contact, but it is not really a true, good hit but they could get that as a point. I think the bending of our true kendo into competitive kendo just gives us a chance to survive and play in more rounds. Imperfect kendo gives you a chance to have fun in an imperfect shiai situation.

The truly great ones can maintain big, straight, true kendo and still win. They are truly great and deserve our admiration. Those who win with less than perfect kendo are still good too though. A balance needs to be found and that will vary from person to person with their goals for their own kendo.

[The great I AM]

I, for one, would like to see the child of this union!

b :P

Whilst I can't speak for Mr Moocow, I, for one, believe that it would be the ugliest thing born into this world, and would be shot for the sake of humanity.

[Lucien]

Whilst I can't speak for Mr Moocow, I, for one, believe that it would be the ugliest thing born into this world, and would be shot for the sake of humanity.

Can I pull the trigger? Can I? Can I?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Or is that just an issue with the mudansha crowd?
Many people's kendo changes somewhat for shiai, but mudansha in general just fall apart. Don't judge competitive kendo by watching the beginners.

As far as how far to go in shiai - well, that's a measure of character, in my view. I think it's possible to reconcile the twin goals of wanting to win and wanting to not be an asshole, some people don't.

[mark]

I am just a lowly novice at this thing called Kendo, but in the few Shiai I've been to, I've been very disturbed, at least, by the level of mudansha kendo (and even shodan in some cases). :)

Kendo shiai is different than Jigeiko.

In shiai, I try my best kendo and due to whatever (nerves?) all the improvements that I have worked on during the last few months and have not quite been fully integrated fall into the "maybe next time pile".

In Jigeiko, to me it makes sense not to give your "best game" all the time. To the extent that I can, I try to adjust my play to the level of my opponent. With better players, I try to capture center as quickly as I can and go in with straight strong attacks (which don't work of course because I have not quite captured center and am not quite straight). With players of my level, I try to apply what was just taught in class. With weaker players I bring down my game by limiting my attacks to what I am weakest at, or only to only one type of attack (only big men....).

I've noticed that even the strongest most experienced players bring another level of game to shiai.

As for mudansha tying themselves up and blocking.... that is just the way it is until they figure it out:)

I think we all try to keep it straight. Unfortunately, it falls apart from time to time:)

[Ipp-on Ipp-off]

Damn! they never aired the A-team doing kendo in the Netherlands.

[samurai999]

Well i was on dojo teams where we got second a handful of times and sometimes I was the one who got the clutch win or the crappy loss. Either way, my dojo buddies were fairly understanding which ever way my matches went. This eased the pressure a lot.

For US championships, thats a very different situation...

Tim

[hyuna]

I think it is important to bear in mind the difference between simply wanting to win and "needing," for lack of a better word, to win.

An ultimate goal of winning matches (i.e. defeating other people) is different from an ultimate goal of improving (i.e. defeating yourself). People may win or lose matches with others on the way towards either goal. But, the way you react to the win or loss and the steps you take along your path are different depending on your real goal.

I daresay that everyone wants to win. But losing a match has different meaning to different people.

[JByrd]

There is nothing wrong with enjoying Kendo for what it is without wanting to win. What do you want out of achieving the rankof 4 dan? What is so important about it. Help me understand why a person who doesn't care about winning or losing in Kendo cares about rank?

I guess it boils down to how we define winning. My idea of victory in Kendo is overcoming myself, not overcoming my opponent. My teachers have always inspired me to think that the primary goal of improving my Kendo is to improve my character, not to win matches.

If I win a match by resorting to things that I do not consider good Kendo, the victory is meaningless to me. If I lose a match in which I did my best and did not sabotage my own efforts, that is a victory to me because I forced my opponent to rise up and beat me with superior Kendo.

Why do I care about rank? To me a rank examination means submitting my performance to my superiors for evaluation. I want to know if my Kendo is getting better, and that's why the evaluation of my superiors means something to me. Just winning tournament matches would not convince me that I am improving because it would depend on how I won the matches, you see?

[samurai999]

Why do I care about rank? To me a rank examination means submitting my performance to my superiors for evaluation.

See the thing is.. Aren't you doing that when you enter a competition? A shimpan in a tournament gives points (theoretically, by the book) in a similar manner compared to what they look for in a shinsa, right? Or at least they should?

Like moocow said previously, nito isn't graded (as well as jodan) in shinsa. They are only "judged" in a tournament. If you do nito or jodan and prefer to do those things compared to chudan, why test?

Tim

[Neil Gendzwill]

Like moocow said previously, nito isn't graded (as well as jodan) in shinsa. They are only "judged" in a tournament. If you do nito or jodan and prefer to do those things compared to chudan, why test?
You want to someday run your own club? You'd like to eventually be on the grading board, or the federation board, so that a voice for considering alternate kamae is heard?

For me, it was getting all the chicks.

[samurai999]

You want to someday run your own club? You'd like to eventually be on the grading board, or the federation board, so that a voice for considering alternate kamae is heard?

For me, it was getting all the chicks.

Neil, prolly no. haha. I'd rather be an engineer than a kendoka and running a dojo requires a considerable amount of effort in addition to the work I'm doing now. I'd rather be under a head instructor if I were to reach the rank for being a sensei. Thats a BIG if right now. Lastly, kendo getting me chicks? When on earth did this start to happen? :D

I'll just keep ranting and raving in the meanwhile. :D

Tim

[misterkurukuru]

then you are doing the wrong budo!!
there was a great crayon shinchan ep. about kendo

a sensei wants shinchan to join kendo
shinchan asks if kendo will get him chicks
the sensei thinks...he has been doing kendo for 14 years...he hasnt had a girl friend for 14 years...

[Neil Gendzwill]

I'd rather be under a head instructor if I were to reach the rank for being a sensei
I think we all would rather do that. However my instructor will eventually retire and somebody has to step up. If we all took the attitude that we're just doing kendo for ourselves, the system would collapse.

[samurai999]

I think we all would rather do that. However my instructor will eventually retire and somebody has to step up. If we all took the attitude that we're just doing kendo for ourselves, the system would collapse.

Unfortunately, the system here, i think (according to your words) is set up to fail. If I were good enough to be sensei or to be a head instructor nonetheless, work would take precedence over being a kendo instructor. If I want to become a good engineer, then I need practice at being an engineer and put kendo on the side as a hobby or activity to do on the side. If I were something else, maybe HR or at some work that didn't require you to gain experience and as much time and effort, then perhaps things would be different. However, what I grew up wanting to be was an engineer. Not a kendoka. I just happened to pick up kendo well for a person that started only 6 years ago and it was interesting to me. If I were to be a head instructor, then I want to give full comittment to kendo for 2-3 hours on Tuesdays and Thursdays (or Wednesdays and Fridays depending on the dojo) and with what I am doing now, I don't think I'll be able to give even that.

Tim

[Kendo-Militia]

You want to someday run your own club? You'd like to eventually be on the grading board, or the federation board, so that a voice for considering alternate kamae is heard?

For me, it was getting all the chicks.


Damn I guess Samurai999, Misterkuru, and Inouye all need to got to Canada. Neil, what kind of chicks are we meeting? I've been doing kendo for over 20 years and if anything lost chicks due to Kendo.

[Kendo-Militia]

[quote=JByrd]

If I win a match by resorting to things that I do not consider good Kendo, the victory is meaningless to me. If I lose a match in which I did my best and did not sabotage my own efforts, that is a victory to me because I forced my opponent to rise up and beat me with superior Kendo.

Your right in a way. For me winning is important, but even more is how I won. No ones wants to do dirty Kendo and win. And if you do, yes it is meaningless. And if I do my best and get my A$$ handed to me as long as I learned and understand what I did wrong I wouldn't call it a victory but I can live with that. In the same token if I enter a match and I didn't have that feeling that I want to win, whether I won or lost, that victory to me is meaningless. I'm all heart no talent. My heart and disire to win got me my wins.

[Neil Gendzwill]

If I want to become a good engineer, then I need practice at being an engineer and put kendo on the side as a hobby or activity to do on the side.
We all have careers, family, other activities - kendo is a hobby for most of us. If family and work don't take precedence over kendo, then either you're young or you've got your priorities seriously out of wack. But bit by bit with our 2 or 3 practices a week we get better, and if we stick with it eventually we get saddled with some responsibility in the dojo. Not to mention getting chicks. Lots of chicks.

[T.Lee]

If I were good enough to be sensei or to be a head instructor nonetheless, work would take precedence over being a kendo instructor....

or walking the dogs....



kendo chicks? where???

[Paikea]

We all have careers, family, other activities - kendo is a hobby for most of us. If family and work don't take precedence over kendo, then either you're young or you've got your priorities seriously out of wack. But bit by bit with our 2 or 3 practices a week we get better, and if we stick with it eventually we get saddled with some responsibility in the dojo. Not to mention getting chicks. Lots of chicks.You forgot to mention the Old Engineer vs Young Engineer conspiracy. You know, the one where the over-40's convince the under 30's that the only way to get ahead in this world is to work until you drop, while we go off skiing or fishing or play a little kendo and laugh?

How's that working for you, Tim?:cool2:

[JByrd]

Your right in a way. For me winning is important, but even more is how I won. No ones wants to do dirty Kendo and win. And if you do, yes it is meaningless. And if I do my best and get my A$$ handed to me as long as I learned and understand what I did wrong I wouldn't call it a victory but I can live with that. In the same token if I enter a match and I didn't have that feeling that I want to win, whether I won or lost, that victory to me is meaningless. I'm all heart no talent. My heart and disire to win got me my wins.
I get that, and I'm glad to hear you put it that way. A high minded attitude toward matchplay means a lot more coming from someone who can really do it. My tournament record is scant and uniformly mediocre to poor, so my attitude could easily seem tinged with sour grapes (and I'm humble enough to admit that maybe it is).

What you said made me examine more closely why I seem to be more comfortable with the idea of being evaluated at a shinsa, versus at a shiai. Because (as Samurai999 says), it's pretty much the same group of people (higher ranking teachers) who do both evaluations!

I guess one difference I see is that only one person can win a match, though both (or neither!) might have done good Kendo.

Also, I guess I see evaluation based on tournament rules as sacrificing scope of judgement to achieve better transparency and clarity of the result. I understand the need for transparency and clarity in judgement, but the narrowness of scope sometimes can twist things, for example a meaningless thing (like a head duck) becomes imbued with value.

In a shinsa, the judge can use the entire scope of his or her understanding of Kendo in the evaluation without being hemmed in by regulations. One disadvantage of unlimited scope is that personal opinions can vary a lot, possibly with loss of uniformity and clarity of the result.

[Kendo-Militia]

or walking the dogs....



kendo chicks? where???


Hey man those dogs are my children. Don't get mad because my dog barks at you. He knows your Korean. It's a dog's natural survival instincts. He doesn't want to be eaten. HAHHAHA Just kidding.


But Neil, where are you getting chicks? I hope your not talking about baby chickens. That's illegal.

[Kendo-Militia]

Jbyrd,

What made difference for me is an advise one of my teammates gave me. He said that off the court, we friends, but once we step on the court and bow, he is thinking about ripping my head off, really kick my butt. Once i had the same attitute, I started to win more matches and shiais were soemthing I couldn't wait for. As I got older and slower now, I look at is as a waste on my Sunday. J/k hahahaha

[samurai999]

You forgot to mention the Old Engineer vs Young Engineer conspiracy. You know, the one where the over-40's convince the under 30's that the only way to get ahead in this world is to work until you drop, while we go off skiing or fishing or play a little kendo and laugh?

How's that working for you, Tim?:cool2:

The work till you drop thing is literally what I am doing right now. :D But my 40 year old engineers are working till they drop too, so I have no complaints.

Tim

[samurai999]

We all have careers, family, other activities - kendo is a hobby for most of us. If family and work don't take precedence over kendo, then either you're young or you've got your priorities seriously out of wack. But bit by bit with our 2 or 3 practices a week we get better, and if we stick with it eventually we get saddled with some responsibility in the dojo. Not to mention getting chicks. Lots of chicks.

While what you say here is true, (except for the chicks) I need to be thinking engineering 80% of the day 5% kendo and 14% errands, chores, busiwork, perhaps 1% relaxation. I try to go 100% when I start practicing, but if something happens at work, I've gotta be there. This includes going in to a meeting at 9:00pm (yes it happens!) or resting up (trying to at least) for a 6:00am meeting. Or taking my work home to do during the week or weekend. Same as my other work I had before I got laid off. I don't think it is fair to the practicioners and the dojo comittee if I were head sensei and weren't able to commit 100% of my time and effort teaching them at the alotted time by suddenly leaving early or by showing up late.

Tim

[mark]

Not to mention getting chicks. Lots of chicks.

I didn't know that chicks was western slang for beer. "Not to mention getting beer. Lots of beer" :)

[Inouye02]

Damn I guess Samurai999, Misterkuru, and Inouye all need to got to Canada. Neil, what kind of chicks are we meeting? I've been doing kendo for over 20 years and if anything lost chicks due to Kendo.but isnt Neil somewhere thats not on the map ? I dont want to meet Eskimo girls, Kendo Militia wants to meet ( Moose and Goose ) hahaha

[Inouye02]

or walking the dogs....



kendo chicks? where??? He was walking his cats,

kendo chicks ? It's the kendo Moms...hahahahahaa

[samurai999]

Damn I guess Samurai999, Misterkuru, and Inouye all need to got to Canada. Neil, what kind of chicks are we meeting? I've been doing kendo for over 20 years and if anything lost chicks due to Kendo.

I've gone to Canada 2x. Once when I was Adult Kyu and once last year. Steveston.. I swear I won't go back there for a while. And no, I didn't see any "chicks".

Tim

[Stefan]

If we all took the attitude that we're just doing kendo for ourselves, the system would collapse.

That's it! Just don't only consume, play a part in your club.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Steveston.. I swear I won't go back there for a while. And no, I didn't see any "chicks".
What was wrong with Steveston? You must have left before the naked cheerleading competition.

[Ignatz]

I've gone to Canada 2x. . . . And no, I didn't see any "chicks".

Tim

That's because the Saskatoonian Kendo God has them all.:rolleyes:

[hyuna]

While what you say here is true, (except for the chicks) I need to be thinking engineering 80% of the day 5% kendo and 14% errands, chores, busiwork, perhaps 1% relaxation. I try to go 100% when I start practicing, but if something happens at work, I've gotta be there.
Let us not forget that "The secret to be a strong Kendo player is to get along with your wife!" (http://www.st.rim.or.jp/~shimano/doujo/eng/okuden_e.html)

[Gregory]

I go to canada every year pretty much, I havent seen any hot girls yet. Ive seen "Ok" ones. Nothing that made me stare.

[Gregory]

( Moose and Goose )
That used to be my sn haha

[samurai999]

Let us not forget that "The secret to be a strong Kendo player is to get along with your wife!" (http://www.st.rim.or.jp/~shimano/doujo/eng/okuden_e.html)

See that won't happen without a gf. Will kendo provide me with a gf? Its a resounding NO right now.

Tim

[samurai999]

What was wrong with Steveston? You must have left before the naked cheerleading competition.

Ya I had to beg and plead with my old work place to give me one day off for the tournament. (a Friday) Then the next time, I was doing ok and then I found out that I had to fill out an application for security clearance for work. That killed me...

Are you sure you want to see a naked kendo cheerleading section? :silly:

Tim

[Rurouni Kenshin]

That's because the Saskatoonian Kendo God has them all.:rolleyes:

I bet the Saskatoonian Kendo God has this secret dojo somewhere between the middle of nowhere and nomans-land filled with lucious babes that do a quick lapdance when in sonkyo and poles in each corner of the dojo...:cool:

[Ignatz]

Are you sure you want to see a naked kendo cheerleading section? :silly:
Tim

Don't forget it's Canada so that means lot's of beer. Who could ask for anything more?

[hyuna]

See that won't happen without a gf. Will kendo provide me with a gf? Its a resounding NO right now.
Of course kendo gets you chicks. But I do think you have to practice hard and be pretty dedicated before it works, but there is no question that it does! :D

[moocow65]

Of course kendo gets you chicks. But I do think you have to practice hard and be pretty dedicated before it works, but there is no question that it does! :D
Yeah, it gets you all the bad ones. Cause the only ones who like kendo guys because of their kendo skill are kendo girls. But I have to admit there was one time my kendo got me a cute girl. It was in Tokyo and some girl who was doing nito saw me do nito. But that's a huuuuge exception.

I guess my problem is is that I enjoy beating down Japanese pretty boys straight from Japan whom all the girls like. It makes me look like a bully I guess. Hahahah!

[Fonsz]

I guess my problem is is that I enjoy beating down Japanese pretty boys straight from Japan whom all the girls like. It makes me look like a bully I guess. Hahahah! You brute! Bully! On behalf of all the pretty boys in the world I put a spell on you! That your shinai will drop at the moment you are in the encho of a final! And after that your hakama will drop. I hope you're happy now because it is your own fault for picking on us pretty boys!:angry:

[Newbie]

Yeah, it gets you all the bad ones. Cause the only ones who like kendo guys because of their kendo skill are kendo girls.

Hang on, hang on, what's wrong with kendo chicks exactly.....?

[misterkurukuru]

Hang on, hang on, what's wrong with kendo chicks exactly.....?

this question should be in the newbie section...

[Gregory]

this question should be in the newbie section...

hehehe
he
he

[The great I AM]

Hang on, hang on, what's wrong with kendo chicks exactly.....?

Can you imagine getting down and dirty with someone who smells like your kote?

[misterkurukuru]

add*
who doesnt just li ke, but also smells like kote....

[Hisham]

Can you imagine getting down and dirty with someone who smells like your kote?

One heck of a reality check (the rhyming wasn't intentional).

[samurai999]

Can you imagine getting down and dirty with someone who smells like your kote?

I never thought of it that way but in any case.. hehe

Tim

[samurai999]

You brute! Bully! On behalf of all the pretty boys in the world I put a spell on you! That your shinai will drop at the moment you are in the encho of a final! And after that your hakama will drop. I hope you're happy now because it is your own fault for picking on us pretty boys!:angry:

Haha have fun trying to curse him.

Tim

[samurai999]

Don't forget it's Canada so that means lot's of beer. Who could ask for anything more?

Think lumberjack. hahah j/k j/k..

Tim

[Paburo]

Well i was on dojo teams where we got second a handful of times and sometimes I was the one who got the clutch win or the crappy loss. Either way, my dojo buddies were fairly understanding which ever way my matches went. This eased the pressure a lot.

yeah. i hear you... to me its usually like that as well. sometimes it's me who gets the clutch win... thats dojo happiness galore. but when i give the crappy loss... well, lol. last time my sensei threatened to 'kick me out the dojo', he said you better start looking for another place to train boy lol. it was jk thou (that i hope! hahaha)

and about the hot canada kendo girl thing... i can't speak for saskatoon and neil's area since i haven't had the pleasure to train there, but i know kendokamax's mcgill dojo had some of the highest % of cute kendo girls per square dojo meter i've seen in years :D

[Newbie]

Can you imagine getting down and dirty with someone who smells like your kote?

You mean I'll never have another b/f again cos I smell like kote? Wow. That's heavy. But if it's a choice between putting up with the hell of relationships or beating up guys I think I'll stick with the kendo ;)

[mingshi]

...Well, don't forget everybody has some kind of fetishism. Just keep looking for those with kote-smell-philia :rolleyes:

[nodachi]

I love the smell of bogu, but it reminds me of practice and makes me want to hit something... not a good impulse to have in a relationship... unless you find that kind of person desireable as a significant other... :dead:

[The great I AM]

I love the smell of bogu, but it reminds me of practice and makes me want to hit something... not a good impulse to have in a relationship... unless you find that kind of person desireable as a significant other... :dead:

You could always practise your "tsuki"....

[Kendo-Militia]

but isnt Neil somewhere thats not on the map ? I dont want to meet Eskimo girls, Kendo Militia wants to meet ( Moose and Goose ) hahaha

Inouye, maybe I can use same trick you tought me about sheeps. Put hind legs in boots and they can't get away. HAHAHAHA

[Kendo-Militia]

See that won't happen without a gf. Will kendo provide me with a gf? Its a resounding NO right now.

Tim


Tim, I didn't know you were straight.

[Mugu]

Tim, I didn't know you were straight.

Don't think it's nice to say that, bear...

[samurai999]

Don't think it's nice to say that, bear...

As you can tell by the name, it is kendo-militia, not bear-of-doom and i believe he is kidding.....

Tim

[Kendo-Militia]

Geez you get into work and the first thing you do is go onto the kendo forum, damn I'm gonna have to het a job with you and Tyson

[Mugu]

As you can tell by the name, it is kendo-militia, not bear-of-doom and i believe he is kidding.....

Tim
Mis-read, sorry. Got mixed up with the previous posts and usernames. Think it's the avatar that got me confused since bear has the same one. Since you say it's a joke, okay. Don't meant to get in between your fun. The jokes you guys go on with each other sometimes is just so cruel. It sometimes worse than the "your mama" jokes... nevermind, I'm just grumpy today. Sorry about for the interruption.

[Neil Gendzwill]

It sometimes worse than the "your mama" jokes...
Don't get us started... OK, you got us started.

Yo mama is so fat, she got other, smaller fat women in orbit around her.

[Mugu]

Don't get us started... OK, you got us started.

Yo mama is so fat, she got other, smaller fat women in orbit around her.

LOL, thanks for the laugh Neil-sensei :)

[Paikea]

Think lumberjack. hahah j/k j/k..

TimHey, hey hey! Watch it, I was a "Lumberjack". Humboldt State (http://www.humboldt.edu/~ocn/), where the men are men, the women are too - and the sheep run for their lives.

[Kendo-Militia]

Don't get us started... OK, you got us started.

Yo mama is so fat, she got other, smaller fat women in orbit around her.


Yo mama so fat, when god said let there be light, he told her to get out of the way.

[Ignatz]

Don't get us started... OK, you got us started.

yo mama is a big fat white man.

[Rurouni Kenshin]

Yo momma is so fat, when she was in school she sat next to everybody....and when the schoolpics were taken they had to call NASA to borrow a spysat.

[samurai999]

Yo mama so fat, when god said let there be light, he told her to get out of the way.

Yo momma so short, she had to slam dunk her bus fare.

Yo momma so stupid, she took an hour to cook minute rice.

Yo momma so big, when she wore a yellow t-shirt and stepped out into traffic, the cars slowed down...

Tim

[KhawMengLee]

Yo mama so fat, King Kong calls her mama.

[Lloromannic]

Yo mama's so fat she can't fit in the joke.

OK, that may have been the lamest joke ever.

[samurai999]

yo mommas so old, when God said, "let there be light", she flipped the switch.

Tim

[Dead Meat]

Yo mama is so fat that when she fell down and broke her leg gravy poured out.

Yo mama is so old she was a waitress at the Last Supper.

Yo mama is so poor that when I saw her kicking a can down the street I asked her what she was doing, she said "Moving!"

Yo mama is so fat she plays hopscotch like this, "New York, New Jersey, Delaware"

Yo mama so fat she had to go to Sea World to get baptized

Yo mama so fat she fell in love and broke it

Yo mama so ugly she made an onion cry

Yo mama so poor she can't afford to pay attention

:cool:

[samurai999]

yo momma so short, she plays handball with the curb.

yo momma so stupid, she thought a quarterback was a refund.

Tim

[Mugu]

OMG... what have I done...

[Kendo-Militia]

Yo mama so fat when she sat on a quarter, she squeezed a bugger out of george washington's nose.

[Gregory]

Your mama so fat, she overeats

Your mama so fat, she joined a weight loss program

Your mama so stupid, she has a low IQ

Your mama so hairy, she needs more than the recommended amount of laser hair removal sessions to get rid of her hair

Your mama so illbred, she hasnt read The Canterbury Tales

Your mama so poor, she has to work hard to make rent

Your mama so old, she uses the word "dag nabit"

Your mama so old, she was born around 1950, maybe later or earlier depending on what she has lived through

Your mama so mean, she yells at people for no reason.

Your mama so cheap, she has a ralphs club card

Your mama so redneck-y she dont know the difference between a filet mignon in a nice merlot cranberry sauce W/ a side of waldorf salad , and prime rib eye, with a bourbon barbeque sauce, and a sweet/tangy mango and apricot salsa!

Ok Im done

[runsyi]

Your mama so fat, she overeats

Your mama so fat, she joined a weight loss program

Your mama so stupid, she has a low IQ

Your mama so hairy, she needs more than the recommended amount of laser hair removal sessions to get rid of her hair

Your mama so illbred, she hasnt read The Canterbury Tales

Your mama so poor, she has to work hard to make rent

Your mama so old, she uses the word "dag nabit"

Your mama so old, she was born around 1950, maybe later or earlier depending on what she has lived through

Your mama so mean, she yells at people for no reason.

Your mama so cheap, she has a ralphs club card

Your mama so redneck-y she dont know the difference between a filet mignon in a nice merlot cranberry sauce W/ a side of waldorf salad , and prime rib eye, with a bourbon barbeque sauce, and a sweet/tangy mango and apricot salsa!

Ok Im done

If you were trying for the "so bad it's good" effect, I'd say you sadly missed the mark. I'd recommend that you get a book on "snaps" or just never try to lay down another "yo mama" joke--ever.

[LNGUYEN]

Your Mama so fat, when you attack her Do, your shinai lost and never be found.

[Paikea]

OMG... what have I done...It's that whole "butterfly effect" thing. Deterministic, non-periodic flow.

[Rurouni Kenshin]

If we chopped yo fat momma up, we would could feed all 3rd world countries, and then some......

[Lloromannic]

Yo momma is so fat that when she fell down she killed the dinosaurs
Yo momma 's so fat that when she farted she created Jupiter

[Ignatz]

Yo mama is so fat if she farted it would start a Deterministic, non-periodic flow that would disrupt the climate on several continents and kill all of the butterflys in the world.

[Kendo-Militia]

Yo mama so old, she farts dust

[samurai999]

Yo mama so old, she farts dust

Yes.. Classic. Simple, but classic.

Tim

[Fonsz]

OMG... what have I done...
What have you done indeed and what was this thread all about actually?:confused:

[Dead Meat]

Yo mama is so fat when she jumped into the air she got stuck.

[samurai999]

If you were trying for the "so bad it's good" effect, I'd say you sadly missed the mark. I'd recommend that you get a book on "snaps" or just never try to lay down another "yo mama" joke--ever.

http://images.animanga.nu/fanart/1964/pwned.jpg

Tim

[Gregory]

http://images.animanga.nu/fanart/1964/pwned.jpg

Tim

:(

Yo mama so fat, she is using the "smaller plate, smaller portions" method to lose weight.



Burned

[samurai999]

Yo mama so fat, she is using the "smaller plate, smaller portions" method to lose weight.


To this I reply with:


If you were trying for the "so bad it's good" effect, I'd say you sadly missed the mark. I'd recommend that you get a book on "snaps" or just never try to lay down another "yo mama" joke--ever.

Tim

[runsyi]

:(

Yo mama so fat, she is using the "smaller plate, smaller portions" method to lose weight.



Burned

I was trying to give you some constructive criticism. Go out and get a book on "snaps"--or get yo mama to do it for you. I'm sure she would unless... Yo mama so poor when she goes to KFC, she has to lick other people's fingers.

Actually on second thought... don't go out and get a book. That might just get you into more trouble.

[samurai999]

Almost forgot these ones.

Yo momma so stupid when she saw NC-17 outside the movie theatre, she went out and grabbed 16 friends.

Yo momma so poor, when I ring the doorbell, she says "Ding".

Tim

[Gregory]

Almost forgot this one.

Yo momma so stupid when she saw NC-17 outside the movie theatre, she went out and grabbed 16 friends.

Tim

That reminds me of this one (its actually good)


Yo mama so irresponsible, she took your 5 year old brother to see hostel, even though she knew it could lead to psychological problems and him folowing eli roth in making really bad movies.


Pwnt.

[Ignatz]

Yo mama is so dumb her lips get tired reading your posts.

[Mugu]

Since I started this "yo mama" terror, I'll do some myself

Yo mama is so dumb, she thinks 1+1= infinity

Yo mama is so fat when she sits, the floor cracks

Yo mama is so fat when she jumps into the pool she causes a Tsunami

Yo mama is so dumb she stares at the orange juice bottle where it says "Concentrate"

[shred_lord]

"Yo mama is so dumb, she thinks 1+1= infinity"

Ok, that's going in the sig :D

[Kendo-Militia]

"Yo mama is so dumb, she thinks 1+1= infinity"

Ok, that's going in the sig :D

Yo mamma so fat, when I rolled off her, I was still on her.

[Hisham]

As a basketball is my number one sport, the image from this one cracked me up:laugh:

Yo momma so short, she had to slam dunk her bus fare.

courtesy of samurai999

[Washington]

why not...

your momma is so dumb while driving she saw a "Do Not Pass" sign and pulled over to the side of the road and didn't know what to do


ok.. that's not really a momma joke.. that's actually a true story about my sister.. but still works :)

[moocow65]

Yo momma so fat, she wakes up on both sides of the bed.

[Gregory]

Yo momma so fat, she wakes up on both sides of the bed. Or, your momma so skinny, she wakes up on NO sides of the bed.


I just remembered one about kool-aid. I never understood it, it was just that stupid. Anyone remember it?

it was fat/koolaid. I forget the details.

I digress;

Here are some real ones:


Yo momma so fat it's not funny
Yo momma so stupid she took a spoon to the superbowl
Yo momma so stupid she waited at a stop sign until it said go.
Yo momma so stupid she took a umbrella to see Purple Rain

[samurai999]

As a basketball is my number one sport, the image from this one cracked me up:laugh:

Yo momma so short, she had to slam dunk her bus fare.

courtesy of samurai999

I'm a basketball fan too. Favorite NBA team? Mines the *sigh* Golden State Warriors...

Tim

[Kendo-Militia]

I'm a basketball fan too. Favorite NBA team? Mines the *sigh* Golden State Warriors...

Tim

I thought they had to drop from the NBA to NCAA division 2 basketball?

And you my team is where ever the most DOMINATE center plays. Shaq-Diesel

[samurai999]

I thought they had to drop from the NBA to NCAA division 2 basketball?


No.. Thats the Hawks or the Raptors..

Tim

[Kendo-Militia]

No.. Thats the Hawks or the Raptors..

Tim



I remember the Gloden State Warriors, that's the team that travel around and plays the Harlem Globetrotters.

[Rurouni Kenshin]

I remember the Warriors with Tim Hardaway, Chris Mullin and eventually Latrell Sprewell but my fave team used to be the Bulls before they won a championship; their 1st NBA title with Jordan still brings tears to my eyes....
Used to enjoy watching Abdul-Jabbar and Magic Johnson and the glorious Celtics with Bird, Parish and McHale......

*sigh.....havent been interested in the NBA ever since I parted with the game with pain in my heart 8 years ago......

[Kendo-Militia]

I remember the Warriors with Tim Hardaway, Chris Mullin and eventually Latrell Sprewell but my fave team used to be the Bulls before they won a championship; their 1st NBA title with Jordan still brings tears to my eyes....

Used to enjoy watching Abdul-Jabbar and Magic Johnson and the glorious Celtics with Bird, Parish and McHale......

*sigh.....havent been interested in the NBA ever since I parted with the game with pain in my heart 8 years ago......


Yea nothing like the "Showtime Lakers and the Celtics Rivalry"

[rfoxmich]

When you are competing the purpose is to win. There may be a deeper purpose in how you win, but the purpose of shiai is to find out how to win. Improve your own performance so that you get selected for the A team.