A nihonjin is US champion..thats just wrong!

[misterkurukuru]

A Nihonjin being US chgampion is just as wrong as FOB being pres. of our country. Why should we let imports take part in the USA championships when they are not even american. Hey Canada how would you like it if a brazilian became Canadian Champion??? the Brazilian may be good, but he is not Canadian. isnt the Canadian champs. all about who is the best Canadian?
how can someone who is not canadian be the best canadian?Same goes fo all other places. how one be the best american when they are not even american? I just do not get it. OH and for the people that are not citiznens, there is the GOODWILL taikai. Ariga sensei usually participates in the GoodWill Div, so you know its not for chumps. actually sometimes i think the good will d. is harder then the mens group. Why dont people that are not citizens participate in the good will div???? Hey if you GUYS WANT TO SAY ITS NOT RIGHT TO EXCLUDE PEOPLE< LET ME GO IN ZEN NIPPON??? how would we like that? no american should be all japan champ(like that could ever happen), and no imports should be allowed to take part in the tournament except in good will.

[Danny Boy]

O_o, I suggest you commit ritual suicide as a sign of protest.

[qpuppy]

if he is a US citizen... then why not... if he has the right to enter why not... I'm pretty sure if a western who has japanese citizen.. and he is good enough... i think he has the right to enter the All Japan.. we dont see and is because there isnt much non Japanese citizen out there who is good enough to be in the all Japan....

[Antonin]

What strikes me about your post is that it seems that for the first time you made use of several paragraphs ! Well done ! As a reward to you for such a progress in your style, I did read one of your posts for the first time for a while, hoping for an improvement in substance as well...
Alas, more ranting...
A.

[Hayashi]

What is the difference between someone who wasn't born in a country, and takes part in that country's tournament because he lives there, and someone who wasn't even born in that country but represents that country at an international tournament, and not his or her country of birth?

Why complain about a Japanese winning your national tournament, when based on the lists posted in this forum, most of the USA representatives at the WKC are of Japanese origin?

This is something that has become common practice, not just in the USA but also in other areas of the world. This doesn't mean it is right, just that it is nothing unusual. Just take sports like table tennis as an example - at the final rounds of international tournaments, you usually see the ranks filled with China-born players or players of Chinese origin, all wearing the colors of their adopted home nations.

Of course, you or other concerned Americans could always improve, and take the championship the next time if you are so inclined, and so competition-minded.

[Marine_Boy]

Ooooo.... I fear that kurukuru man has reared its ugly head again!

Don't want to seem harsh or interfere with your bubble of reality, but ritual suicide is too noble for you.

Stan

[slidercrank]

Apparently, the AUSKF doesn't see the need to restrict the Nationals to citizens only. The "Nihonjin" entered the tournament legally, and won the first place fair and square. You didn't want a "Nihonjin" to win, then you should have beaten him on the court.

For your information, this guy wasn't a kendo wonder from Japan who went through the rigorous university kendo training. In fact, he didn't do kendo at all in college and came to the US very much a kendo nobody, having last done kendo during his high school days. While doing graduate work here, he resumed training in NYC. The first place in the 2002 Nationals was the culmination of his hard training of more than 5 years in an American dojo.

I had heard rumors that some people in the California kendo circle grumbled about losing the title and made an issue of this particular person's citizenship status. The rumors went that had someone from California won the title, nothing would have been said. Those were mere rumors, until I read your message.

Isn't humility part of kendo? Isn't shiai a mere component of kendo training that consists of keiko, shinsa and shiai? Isn't competition just part of the training, instead of the goal of the training?

I sincerely hope your attitude is not representative of California kendoka's.

[Phlebas]

"Isn't humility part of kendo? Isn't shiai a mere component of kendo training that consists of keiko, shinsa and shiai? Isn't competition just part of the training, instead of the goal of the training?

I sincerely hope your attitude is not representative of California kendoka's." --slidercrank

HERE, HERE! Well said, laddie. That pretty much sums it up.

I am getting a little disappointed in the WWF style trash-talking from some of the people on this board. "smackdowns" and "whoopass" lowers this beautiful art to the level of American pro wrestling. These purile, marginally literate buffoons should post somewhere else.

Now I read a blatantly xenophobist post about an "alien" tournament winner, and sore losers who whine about citizenship status... that's pathetic. Go back to your training and work harder. This tournament winner did you all a FAVOUR by showing you your weaknesses... or perhaps you were thinking about how cool you will look in bogu when your sensei was explaining that important aspect of Kendo? I seriously think that some of these people should take up wrestling or some other "poser" sport instead. They lack humility and dignity.

[sminki]

sidecrank,

could you (or others) give me some background color here? did a guy from japan who resumed training in NYC won the US champs? what's the situation here?

my two cents is that while i think that in theory US nationals are limited only to citizens (and i thought it was), if a guy who is not a US citizen enters the US champs LEGALLY under the regulations, then i don't see a huge problem in that.

[AlexM]

Stand back people, I'm about to agree with kurukuru.... (the sound of jaws hitting the floor fills the air).

The whole point of having national championships is to determine the best player in the country (even if they've trained abroad), this assumes that they are citizens too. I don't understand the AUSKF's logic of letting people who cannot represent the US at the world championships (due to citizenship requirements) compete in the contest meant to determine not only who is the best in the country but also who's going to represent it at the WKCs. You're trying to determine the best American kendoka, not the best kendoka who happens to live in America.

The CKF has strict guidelines about this: Only Canadians (proof of citizenship required) can compete in the nationals. Although the competition is open to everyone in the TEAM division (which determines very little, if anything).

This sounds to me like an internal question for the AUSKF to resolve. But kurukuru is right, I've never heard of any sport that allowed foreigners to become national champion.

The fact that someone is of Japanese ancestry is totally separate from citizenship of course. I'm not advocating the "racial purety" of sport championships... But to have a non-citizen actually become US champion is ridiculous.

Who is FOB???

[slidercrank]

Originally posted by sminki
sidecrank,

could you (or others) give me some background color here? did a guy from japan who resumed training in NYC won the US champs?

Yes to your second question.

In the US, various federations in California traditionally produce the most competitive players. The 2002 champion in question was neither an American citizen nor a member of any California kendo federations.

AlexM:

Your reasoning is correct. However, it's been that way for the US forever and no one had ever sought to do anything about it. To me, it's poor sport to make an issue about it after the fact.

[slidercrank]

Originally posted by AlexM


Who is FOB???

FOB stands for Fresh Off the Boat. Not a very complimentary term, if you ask me.

Additionally, like I said earlier, it's not like we are talking about a kendo prodigy from Japan who went from the airport to the match court and proceeded to whip all the American players. This was an average guy from Japan who practiced hard for many years in an American dojo. Well, if we are having problems beating this guy in a tournament, then I think that all of us (the genuine American kendo players) should collectively practice a little harder for the next Nationals.

[sminki]

sidecrank,

thanks for your answer. do you know which dojo in NYC? i'm interested.

[Antonin]

Well, yes and no Alex, it very much depends what we are looking for in the championship. I understand your point, but in most countries, for example in the UK where i live for now, the competition is organised by the National Kendo Association, with no help/input whatsoever froom any sort of government agency. What does it mean ? It means that anyone who is part (i.e. pay their membership...) of the association should be allowed to compete in the National, since they pay their due... So the point of the competition is to find the best kendoka of the association... If s/he is not a national, so be it. If the association, as a private entity, were to discriminate against against foreigners it could be illegal.
The case may be different in countries where the goverment is involved in helping kendo (financially or otherwise). In this case the nationality may be more relevant... However, I don't think it is the case in the US.
Anyway, the original rant sounded like 'bloody foreigners go home' to me. I feel sorry for our American friends to have to appologise for such a burded as Kurukuru. (BTW, if you're so nationalistic, why the flag ? ). But every country has a burden to carry I suppose (Canada's burden anyone ?)
A.

[Confound]

FOB is generally not a term one hears in polite or civilized conversation, then again, when dealing with a cretin like mrkurukuru, what can one expect? Only that which is suited for the lowest common denominator.

I agree with others who say that it is poor ettiquette to make an issue about the championship after the fact. My personal opinion is that it doesn't matter either way. Being someone who doesn't place any great emphasis on shiai or the competitive part of kendo, perhaps this opinion is a moot point, but a title is a title, it's there for a year, then next year someone else wins it. It is fleeting at best.

The world cup team selection seems more important that who actually won the nationals. No matter who wins the title in the end, people will still be picked for the world cup team, and competing internationally is far more rewarding than having some silly title for a year.

Consider yourselves lucky that you had a chance to see such good kendo, or be on the receiving end of it. Think of it as an opportunity to improve, not to denigrate someone else.

I'm making myself sick.

c

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by misterkurukuru
Hey Canada how would you like it if a brazilian became Canadian Champion???...Ariga sensei usually participates in the GoodWill Div.
Hee. Taro's originally from Brazil, has Canadian citizenship, lives in LA and is of Japanese descent. I can't recall offhand if he's ever won nationals, but he's the team captain this year.

[JSchmidt]

Having been an ex-pat for about 10 years now, I think National Champs should be for residents, but I'm biased :).
It *did* feel silly, when I'd started kendo in the UK, lived in the UK and still couldnt compete in the nationals. Not that I had any chance of winning, but even so.
Anyways..I reckon it's up to each organization to decide how they want to run their competitions.

Jakob

[Ares2907]

First up, can't believe that half of you guys bothered replying to this drivel. Anyhoo -

Australian champs are open to citizens and permanent residents. A few Japanese citizens with PR have won the titles - big deal. If you don't like it, you cop it sweet, train hard and kick arse next year.

Someone needs to STFU and train harder.
If you're good, let your kendo speak for you. No one likes a whiny punk. Maybe also consider buying a whole lotta fish to go with that massive chip you're carrying around. Bitching about how you were robbed and hard done by isn't going to win you any friends
(caveat: misery loves company)

[aru-ma]

Originally posted by Ares2907
First up, can't believe that half of you guys bothered replying to this drivel. Anyhoo -

Australian champs are open to citizens and permanent residents. A few Japanese citizens with PR have won the titles - big deal. If you don't like it, you cop it sweet, train hard and kick arse next year.


which is the exact reason why I didnt even try out for the nationals, I'm neither PR or citizen. :cool:

[Inouye02]

hey ares , did you for get something ? killfile ? not caring about what kurukuru says ..i think you are hooked on what kurukuru says and thinks ..

[Karaken]

Maybe I'm ignorant but everyone seem to know exactly what happened except I don't. Can someone post a website that contains details? Has Mr. KK competed and gone to final with the eventual champ? :-)

Center is champ

[Tenken]

getting back to the subject... I think anyone who are citizen could be in the tournament. But for the people who are just a resident of US, they only could be in the Goodwill group. So I think there should be a women's Goodwill group also. And if there is lots of people fighting in the tournament, it will be nice to have team matches also.

[KATSUJIN]

Well.....this kind of thing should be something that the organization, which allowed the participant to join the tournament, should be talking abt, not us. We should not waste our time complaining abt it. If any of the kendokas still complain abt it, they should just train harder and win the next round. (If they can participate)

[Tato]

In fact, it's a good thing that permanent residents can compete for the national tournament, that way a country like USA or Spain will find that they have to compete whit some uberkendoka bred in Japan or Korea. That's a real test.

And besides, If I go to USA, got a green card, enter AUSKF, then I will hope to compete in the nationals. (If I'm good enaugh to get there...).

And the reverse, is an USA citizen cames to live in Spain and gets permanent residenceship, I would be deligthed to see him wining the national. (That only will mean that we have a long road to do, more training, which is the goal of all this execercise, isn't it?).

The result only will produce a better kendo.

And no-one will lose his place on the national team, there's that requirement to get a place there, ah yes, and being a good kenshi counts too.

Rei.

[KhawMengLee]

I agree with Tato, it hurts the pride to have the nationals won by a non-citizen but that goes to show ones own weakness. Instead of whining about it, accept it and improve.

Plus, anyway, its not (as someone said) like he was some kendo king from japan who came over to destroy American kendoka...I mean he trained hard to win.

Ares- PR's can join? Cool! I'll be in for the next one!:)

[AlexM]

For the record,

This is really a matter for the AUSKF to consider. I thought it was self-evident that the nationals be the only competition (as far as I know) to restrict the competitors to only citizens. It's not that I'm worried that hundreds of Japanese will try to come just to compete in the nationals, it for the sake of simplicity (in Canada the 2 tournament finalists make the team, if one of those is a foreigner then which of the two 3rd place finishers do you choose to take his place?). I'm all for letting all comers compete in every other tournament.

In Canada the nationals are intricately tied to the national team selection process (the coach only chooses 3 people for the team, the rest have to earn their way on through a selection process which I described elsewhere). But the nationals are also the place where you know that the Team Canada coach and manager will be watching to make up their minds on those 3 selections. Imagine you want to make the team and your first (and soon to be only) match (there are no round-robins in the tournament) is against a born-and-bred Japanese university student: He can't get on the team but he can at least make you look bad.

And this is not about training harder to be able to beat this (imaginary) guy: There is no way in hell that I (or most of us) can ever compete with people who started kendo at the age of 5 and have been exposed to much stiffer competition than I have for all of their lives. I would prefer trying to get that selection spot on the team through fighting someone at least "comparable" to myself (obviously all this is assuming that I could actually get on the team and that I'd actually be good for a Canadian which is not the case).

The point is, if you're going to hold a selection process then try to be consistent. This is actually fairly important in Canada because of various scandals where English-Canadian coachs favored English-Canadian athletes over their (often superior) fellow athletes from Québec. This ain't much of a problem with kendo because.... Québec's kendo ain't that good yet (no Québécois has ever been chosen to the national team... maybe next time). We try to keep things structured.

Confound, you actually get to be national champion for 3 years since the nationals are held in conjuncture with the WKCs. Like I said, the nationals are part of the team selection process.

However, the beauty of amateur sport is that in the end it really doesn't matter what happens. Win or lose we all go back to our real lives after it's over.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by AlexM
But the nationals are also the place where you know that the Team Canada coach and manager will be watching to make up their minds on those 3 selections.
That logic doesn't quite cut it. If Murao-sensei picks you, he's basing his decision on a lot more than just that performance. You should be attending team practices, participating in the regional round-robin, hitting the big tournaments... not to say he's not watching you at nationals, but that's just one thing of many. And furthermore, if you draw some hot-shot import he's not going to make you look bad - he's going to give you an opportunity to show how you play in a pressure situation against a strong player. 'cuz you know Murao-sensei is thinking of that inevitable semi-final against Japan.

[AlexM]

Good point Neil. But I'd still like to show what I'm capable of in more than just one match (and this is assuming I could come close to actually making the team, fat chance... maybe if they all get SARS....)

How does it work if you're out in the East? Murao-sensei doesn't come here that often (although I've actually met him 3 times now... maybe he does come here often). I'd assume the team manager does the scouting in the East (note to self: Start sucking up to Tizzard(-sensei?) now :D ).

It's still about consistency in the selection process though. Does it sound bad to say "exclude foreigners"? Yes. It is still the most rational thing to do? Yes. Do I want to fight Japanese Uni. students at any other tourney? Yes, absolutely, the more the merrier(although I'm not actually in their division).

The nationals are the nationals, it's the only tournament that should be restricted on accounts of citizenship. For the sake of simplicity only.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by AlexM
How does it work if you're out in the East? Murao-sensei doesn't come here that often (although I've actually met him 3 times now... maybe he does come here often). I'd assume the team manager does the scouting in the East (note to self: Start sucking up to Tizzard(-sensei?) now :D ).
Murao-sensei travels east quite a bit in the year leading up to nationals. They run several team practices, plus the round-robin. Plus he knows everybody, so I'm sure he's talking to the various sensei and getting their opinions on who might make a good prospect. Bottom line is if you're serious, you have to let Murao-sensei know that you are a contender, you've got to hit the team practices. Plus I think all the picks come out of guys who were in at least the regional round-robins, so there's the clear chance to really show him your stuff.

I don't know how much input Rick gets into these things.

[Hyaku]

I would like to put in a few yens worth.

I have taken part in the All Japans many times as a Japanese resident. I was pleased to be asked to take part because I know that I will never be good enough to represent the prefecture. But its only the cream that get a chance to participate in the Prefectural finals.

I have also taken part in other nationals (Batto Renmei) and have taken second place. Also first place in prefectural iaido championships.

So whats the problem? You should try to become good enough to knock the Japanese/American/Candian whatever of his perch and stop bitching about it!

I have found no barriers as yet in my Japanese Budo World based on nationality.

Hyaku

[Hai_hai]

Hmm, this is interesting. I don't know much about the AUSKF and it's rules regarding who is allowed to compete in the All-US championship. I am a beginner. :(

I do feel that this is something that the AUSKF may want to change. Other sports have their "annual national championship tournament" where the competitors are to be citizens of that country. There's no real problem amoungst the competitors since they compete at their respective country's championship tournament.

In three years, I could apply for citizenship at the Vatican City, create the All-Vatican City Kendo Federation, become the sole member and national champion and enter the World Championship all by myself... :bandit: ... or not.

[Hongsermeier]

For what it's worth here's my two cents. First off, I'm from Southern California. To be in the US Championships you must be a resident. As far as anyone complaining about non-citizens, my wife is a nihonjin. However she didn't practice for 12 years. She quit during highschool and came to the US, met me and the rest is history. She recieved her nidon rank in the US, and was going to be on the North cal team until she got pregnant. She regularly beats other women who are ranked 2 or 3 steps above her. If we want a US born and raised to be the champ we should take our leasons from last years tournament and go work on our weakness's to improve. Not sit around and complain. So suck it up!!

[KhawMengLee]

See
So suck it up!!

Oh, My God! Hongsermeier is really Sleazy P. Martini (Manager of GWAR).

http://www.gwar.net/mythos/bios/sleazy/index.php?gwarsid=04419f11f9917cb673df27acfbbaa069

Check his favourite qoute:D :D :D :D

[misterkurukuru]

Your wife is now a citizen right? so there is no problem there. Plus he has a fast kaishi men. I am looking foward to seeing how well shotokyo does at the team tournament this month.

[Hongsermeier]

Wife is not a citizen. She doesn't plan to become one for now. My son has dual citizenship. Where does that leave him if he decides to do Kendo? If he does, I will take him to Japan to train during summer break from school. I'm even trying to transfer my job to Japan. That way he can start school and kendo in Japan. He can hold both citizenships until 18 years old. Does he have to give up the Japanese citizenship to be on the US team? Or the other way around? So many questions.

KhawMengLee.....GWAR...are they still together?

[mingshi]

In addition to Antonin and JSchmidt's posts...

In the UK there are two nationals for individuals... One is the British National Open in Sep, which is divided into Juniors, Ladies, Men (1kyu-3Dan, 4Dan+).

The other one is Premire's Cup in June, which only allows UK passport holders. But the no. of participants is really small... and girls gotta fight the boys (or older male of that sort :p). This rule IMHO is to show that Kendo is being promoted to everyone in the country, and not just those in the Japanese community.

Correct me if I am wrong, it seems that the Japanese population in the UK is not that strong at all... I mean, apart from work or study, nobody is staying long enough (and/or to become a citizen etc.). In most Taikai there's only 1/3 (or maybe less) "oriental-looking people". Kendo is, and should not be, an activity limited to people of the same race/nationality (or in political terms for that matter).

So... yeah, if there're two separate Taikai, one for all the Kendo Fed members, and one for the citizens, maybe things will be different.

--------------
p.s. For kurukuru-dude

You lost and you blame the judge. You lost and you blame your opponent's citizenship. What else is next? The floor? The weather? The spectators?

If you are good, I don't see why you are not the national champion already. If you are already the national champion, why don't you be the world champion as well? Aiming to become a regional/ national champion of a minor sport in your own country is completely narrow-minded. Some of those from Japan can only dream to participate in the nationals, most of them are... well, just watching.

[JSchmidt]

Jenny, there isn't all that many Japanese women, true, but there's plenty in the mens section, although you mainly see them in 4dan+ division.
Also, all the gold medal winners at the last British Open were Japanese, so it's not that they aren't strong!

As for the Premier Cup: I started kendo in the UK, I have promoted kendo in the UK, I paid my fee, taxes to the country and lived there for nearly 10 years. For all intents and purposes and especially regarding kendo, I was a British kendo-ka...yet, I can't compete in the Premier Cup.
Having said that, the Premier Cup is a little unique as it was a competetion started by the then Prime Minister of Japan, who specificly wanted a tournament that promoted UK kendo.
Problem is, as you said, that not very many turns up for it.
Part of the reason, I guess, especially with the London clubs, is that there aren't that many British people!. Hizen, for example, above 1st dan, about 15% or so are British, another 15% Japanese and the rest largely European (With the token Aussie, Kiwi and South African),which is typical for London.

Jakob

[Paburo]

so what if a fellow asian citizen(or of asian descent) wins the national cup. he trains in that nation, he pays to be federated, and he belongs to a national dojo. so why cant he compete also?

most of the US team is 'nihonjin'(nikkeijin) too... so is that 'just wrong' also? is it not enough 'american'? then according to that all 'white' europen descendant and african-american kendoka should be banned too then, and true 'american' team should be made out of native american kendoka only.

i think that in spain anyone federated in a spanish club and spanish resident can compete in the national cup. from the top kendoka, they will 'filter' for the 'spanish' team those who are 'spanish' by law. this system seems to work just about fine.

p.s. i can only imagine a US team with seven mr kurukurus on it! now THAT would be just wrong...

[misterkurukuru]

ming shizul my nizul. i did not loose to an import. Moocow's stoy is not about me. I beat someone and that guy was given a coaches pick to go to the next round. Paburo...the USA wishes it could have seven kurukurus, anyways... a spanish championships(if they have one) is held to find out who the best spanish person is. a MEXICAN is not spanish, therefore how can a mexican be the best spanish person when they are not even spansih....become a citizen, then there will be no problem, even if you just get married and got your citizen ship a week ago that is fine. I dont care how long someone has been a citizen, i just want them to be one if they are trying to be the best american.

[mingshi]

Originally posted by JSchmidt
Also, all the gold medal winners at the last British Open were Japanese, so it's not that they aren't strong!

Argh... I aven't speak enough English lately, so pardon me. I meant the Japanese presence is not strong, and not their Kendo. In last two year's major team Taikai (which I watched), it was either Japanese vs Japanese (last M3 and Bowden's), or Mixed team vs Japanese (2001's M3 and Bowden's). Though having said that I would be implying the local's Kendo is not strong... :ermm:

Sorry for invading. Now back to the Nihonjin in the US...

Kurukuru, I still don't see your point. (Was there ever one??)

To make it simple, what's the difference between someone who got married yesterday and someone who will get married tomorrow?

[Tenken]

you idiot! the difference is that they got married!

[Confound]

<sarcasm>
I see the thread has deteriorated nicely with no help from me.
</sarcasm>

In the lowest common denominator spirit that seems to dominate any thread in which Kurukuru participates, allow me to eluciate:

I believe what MrKurukuru is trying to say here is better explained by the song 'Blame it on the Rain', by Milli Vanilli: "Whatever you do, don't put the blame on you". (This is the sum of my 80s pop music knowledge.) I find Misterkurukuru's use of terms like "FOB" and other less tasteful expressions rather ironic, but we'll leave that one untouched, shall we?

If someone wants to join a tournament, they should be able to do so, as long as someone wants to compete, there shouldn't be a problem. A title is just a meaningless label to be used for 364 days, then handed on to someone else. It isn't the end of the world.

As for Japanese nationals, need I remind certain people that you don't just wake up on fine morning and say, "Lovely day. I think I'll go to the nationals today!" In Japan there are many kendou tournaments leading up to selection for the Nationals. You must earn your way there. The people who end up going are extraordinarily good.

When you think of the large pool of people who do kendou in Japan, then consider, statistically speaking, the odds of having a pretty big group of exceptional kendouka, simply because of excellent training opportunities and many years of study, the odds are heavily stacked against a gaijin making it to the nationals. It's a moot point whether they would actually be allowed to compete. Quite frankly, despite the ridiculous amount of stupid, asinine, and sometimes overtly discriminatory behaviour I have encountered here, it should be noted that none of it has had anything to do with kendou, or people who practice kendou.

In the end, we've all been had by the silly little troll again.

Why do I even bother?

c

[Tato]

Because you do, Confound.

MrKurukuru, sorry but it's easier to find a French or an English citizen who resides in Spain competing for the Spain's tournament than a Mexican, there're very few american kenshi in Spain. And yes, as many of the other European Kenshi can told you, there's a Spanish national champinship and a Spanish team.

And the trouble with your point is that I don't see the use of finding who's "the best USA Kenshi" or "the best Kenshi in Spain" but we don't want non-citizen residents, it's like saing let's start a competition whitout some of the stronger players.

I really have trouble whit this "the best" concept, who's the best the one that wins the tournament or the one that practices the better kendo but don't wants to compete?

Rei

[misterkurukuru]

okay i will make this simple. If someone is not a member of your dojo, how can they be called the best person from your dojo? AHHHHHHHHH easy yes!!!!!! The person can practice there, do in dojo shiais there, but because they are not a member of your dojo. they cannot be called the best person from "enter dojo name here" dojo and they cannot be on your dojo's team in shiais. OH, your friend is not a member of your family. that is why we say they are "like family." if they get married into the family the next day, then they are family. You cant tell people "oh this is my sister in law" if they lady hasnt married your brother yet.

[Tato]

Mr. Kurukuru, I do understand the logic of your statement, unfortunatetly it seems to me that you don't understand mines.

I just believe that finding who's the best among the citizens from one country, excluding legal long term residents, it's useless.

And in some point your statement seem to fall in a contradiction, when applied to reality, because, in theorie, to do such a tournament you must include the citizens that don't reside in the country, even if they don't belong to the country federation. Does AUSKF allow that?

I think that you put too much value on citizenship when speaking/practicing kendo.

Rei

[misterkurukuru]

can the best man be a woman?
can the best drink be a steak?
can up be down?
left be right?
can mr.kurukuru not be a jerk?
can the best movie be a tv show?
here we go...the best latin rock group is X japan.
the best foot baller(not american foot ball) be michael Jordan?
ohhhh michael is the best white player in america!
MJ can be considered the best player ever, but he cannot be the best white player ever BECAUSE HE IS NOT WHITE!
hmmm clear enough?

[misterkurukuru]

a can of worms cannot be the best fruit!
if any of you cant understand that, you need to go back to pre-school and learn about differentiation. one cannot be something that it is not. dogs are not cats and milk is not dirt.

[KhawMengLee]

okay i will make this simple. If someone is not a member of your dojo, how can they be called the best person from your dojo? AHHHHHHHHH easy yes!!!!!! The person can practice there, do in dojo shiais there, but because they are not a member of your dojo. they cannot be called the best person from "enter dojo name here" dojo and they cannot be on your dojo's team in shiais. OH, your friend is not a member of your family. that is why we say they are "like family." if they get married into the family the next day, then they are family. You cant tell people "oh this is my sister in law" if they lady hasnt married your brother yet.

SO by that rational, why is the Baseball finals in the US called the World Series when no one else enters?

Look if I have to pay full membership fees to the AUSK then I expect to get what any member is entitled to. If you are worried about non-americans participating then your federation should give them something like visitor memberships which exclude them from this event. The title National championsips refer to the geographical scope of competitors, and mentions nothing about citizenship...

ps. correct use of punctuation might be a blessing, neh?

[M.K. Kawai]

Actually, there are a lot of foriegn nationals that play for American baseball teams. :D

I believe that the wrong analogy is being used here. The closest equivalent would be a country holding a National Tournament to find the best that country has to offer and send that group of people to the World Tournament. Figure Skating is one example where only US citizens can participate, the Olympic tryouts are another example where only the citizens of that country can participate. Although it should be noted that some countries will allow a foriegn national to participate if one of their parents is a citizen of that country.

The US Kendo Championship should be restricted to US citizens. Now what about people who pay membership dues to AUSKF? That is a legal thing. I'd have to check with some people I know and ask them that question and get their opinion on this issue. If membership dues is considered sufficient reason to allow foriegn nationals to participate in the National Championships then the matter has to be dealt with at the national level by AUSKF.

The bottomline is that the AUSKF is going to have to clearly determine and define exactly what a US Kendo Champion is. Otherwise, we will be revisiting this issue again and again.

MKK

[misterkurukuru]

oh can i be the word patrol? What is neh? and in baseball no team out of the MLB can be in thier world serise. I think the should rename the AL and the NL, because there are canadian teams in both. NO team from the pacific league can compete to be the best team in the MLB unless they join the MLB!

[mingshi]

Originally posted by M.K. Kawai
The US Kendo Championship should be restricted to US citizens. Now what about people who pay membership dues to AUSKF?

If membership dues is considered sufficient reason to allow foriegn nationals to participate in the National Championships then the matter has to be dealt with at the national level by AUSKF.

Conclusion is drawn.
I rest my case.

[Hongsermeier]

I think the national tournament should be limited to citizens and green card holders. If they have a green card they live, work and will probably stay in the US for the rest of their life.

In a similar situation. I was in the North Cal championship last year. I lost to a guy who had just started college in the US. He had just come from Japan a month or two before. Since he had no menjo they put him in the Kyu division. It was VERY obvious by watching him that was wrong. I was lucky enough to watch all his matches. I was the only person to last into encho with him. Most lost by 2 points. After the tournament was over I was appoligized to by a few of the sensei's that he was put in the wrong bracket.
Was I upset, yes. Does it matter, no. Mistakes are made and life goes on.

[M.K. Kawai]

Mingshi,

Don't forget about the legal thing. I've worked with different national organizations here in the US. I probably have enough street knowledge to draw some sort of idea, but without having seen the current bylaws of the AUSKF I really can't say for sure.

The problem that I see rests in the definition of what a US Kendo Champion is. Is that person suppose to be a US citizen or not? If the bylaws are clear on this that the US champion is to be a citizen then the matter is settled. The US should restrict its US championships to US citizens. If it does not, then the legal card is tossed in. And, that is where I am going to stop. I am not a lawyer so I won't even speculate on that matter.

As for the green card thing... that too is beyond me, but it is an interesting issue to deal with.

In any case, this as an AUSKF matter for them to deal with. I'm sure their legal counsel can better advise them on how to handle this issue.

MKK

[samurai999]

Originally posted by misterkurukuru
can the best man be a woman?


Ummm... In Cali, it depends on where you are to determine the validity of that statement. :spchless:

Tim

[M.K. Kawai]

Samurai999,

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

That's a good one. :p

MKK

[Hai_hai]

After thinking about it, a nihonjin should always be the national champion in the US. If for some reason, a non-Japanese person is the best, he should ceremoniously admit defeat to a Japanese opponent, even if he's never learned one second of Kendo.

[moocow65]

i have a different reason why a non-citizen should not be US champ. well, for people who aren't born here, they gotta take a citizenship test or something AND an oath to our country. to love and respect the USA. that is my problem right there. i think it's wrong for our national champ to have not taken that oath. now, i'm not saying they hate our country; of course not. why would they be living here then? i just think that their citizenship of their homeland is more important to them than a US citizenship. so how can we have a national champ who is more loyal to another country? if they're not willing to give up their citizenship of their country, i.e. japan and not become a citizen of the US, then they do not DESERVE to participate. sure, they may have paid their dues to the AUSKF, but they haven't paid their dues to OLD GLORY which is a hell of alot more important. of course, they can participate in the goodwill division, i got not problem with that. it's goodwill. that's the division i'll be in in the next national championships, cause i'm not good enough to be in the men's competition. hahah.

[Hongsermeier]

moocow...your not good enough to be in the men's? If thats true I don't even want to think about where I stand.
As for citizenship, I agree mostly. However there are other things at work. My wife for example will not even be considering getting her citizenship till after our next kid. This gives our kids the option of which country they wish to be citizens of. Not to mention how much easier it is when traveling to and from Japan.

[Old Warrior]

I am a relative newcomer to Kumdo and I have no interest in competition. Nevertheless I have a long history of involvement with fencing (European). In the United States, fencing is controlled by the USFA. In order to participate in the "National Championship" you must be a member. Membership is restricted to US Citizens and "Permanent Residents". If you want to fence, you must be a member.

Politics looms heavily in the USFA and everything about its activities. It is an international sport and the US has not been the home of the greatest fencers in the world. To be honest, no world class competitor would fudge on an application to become the US Champion. If a foreign national were a "Permanent Resident" and he wanted to fence in the Championship, I am sure he would be welcome and there wouldn't be the kinds of opinions as those expressed on this thread, being generated. You see, one of the problems with the quality of US fencing is the lack of regular competitions with world class fencers in this country. The only way the quality of our fencers will improve is if we can get people to come here and fence. I think it would be no big deal if someone moved here from wherever and won. I don't think the situation with Kendo should be any different.

[William Honda]

Old Warrior,

That is because American fencers suck.

There are, however, many excellent American kendoka.

William

[Old Warrior]

"That is because American fencers suck"

In a somewhat more civilized fashion, that is about what I said. Now, if one had a desire to improve the quality of fencing, my thesis is that more foreign competition is absolutely required. I think the same concept goes for Kendo.

By the way, there have been a few outstanding American fencers. I'd tell you who they were/are, but you obviously don't care.

[William Honda]

Old Warrior,

Don’t make hasty judgments. I work with a fencer and his wife is also a fencer. We talk about our respective interest in sword arts now and then.

Now, I am confused, you say “ the US has not been the home of the greatest fencers in the world.” Which is also what I hear. So I put it in street language and you say there are some outstanding ones. Which is it?

Say what you mean and mean what you say. Don’t be such an attorney and straddle the fence.

William

[Inouye02]

can you use 2 swords when fencing ?

[dorkusxmaximus]

that'll be cool if fencing was allowed to use 2 swords, but then again they're only allowed to move left and right , or side to side. which really sucks in my opinion.

[Old Warrior]

Wm Honda

I'm not straddling the fence, but then I'm not glorifying your "street language" that impunes people whom I know well. These individuals train very hard but can't quite make the grade to world class, because they have to work and lack the necessary competitive challenge to rise to the next level. They hardly "suck". I would apply the same philosophical bend that is replete in this BB to those who pursue other arts. The reward is the personal growth from the work and dedication of improvement. Also, check the Olympic records, a number of Americans have earned medals and distinguished themselves.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by dorkusxmaximus
that'll be cool if fencing was allowed to use 2 swords, but then again they're only allowed to move left and right , or side to side. which really sucks in my opinion.
Huh? Fencers move mainly back and forth. They can move side to side within the confines of the piste, which is enough for their purposes. If you look at kendo, it is mostly linear too. One big difference between the two is that in fencing, they stop and seperate the fencers after each sequence. Kendo players attack, crash into each other, seperate often in different directions and continue until point or penalty is called. The piste doesn't allow that and the fencers can't continue past each other either so they come back to the starting position much more often than kendoka.

If you think about it, doing keiko in crowded conditions isn't much different than being on a piste, and most people don't have a problem controlling their actions to be mostly in one narrow corridor.

[William Honda]

Old Warrior,

What context are we talking about? Okay, I can understand that you have taken exception to my use of the word "sucks". Please excuse me for my street language but I am not the writer that Confound thinks she is. Let me point out that you are the one that attaches discipline and dedication with it, not me. You have gone beyond the superficial meaning of "suck" and I make no apologies when you get carried away.

American fencers are not near the caliber of the Europeans. There are outstanding American fencers (I think there was a black gentleman that went to the Olympics that was outstanding). But American fencing as a whole, or a team, is not competitive in the world. They come onesies and twosies (three year old child language). Besides, it is only my moronic opinion so don't get your knickers in a twist and don't get on me for the childish language okay?

Contrary to American fencing - American kendo is competitive. There are numerous outstanding American kenshi (US citizens). The US has been unfortunate in some of the draws it gets early in competition, namely Korea and/or Japan.

In addition, I do not think anyone (including myself) has stated that Americans should only practice solely with other Americans. So why you have brought up practicing with foreigners is beyond me. I think we all welcome practice with anyone - from anywhere. Practicing with anyone more skilled than you will make your kendo better - period. We all know this.

However, the US Champion should be a citizen - naturalized or not.

William

[Old Warrior]

Wm Honda

What's with the chip on your shoulder? - lighten up. The "Black Gentleman" is Peter Westbrook and his forerunner was a "great" fencer by the name of Uriah Jones. I could list others, but you are right - they come in onesies and twosies.

In comparison to fencing in France, Italy, Russia, etc. etc. - US fencing does not compare. The precise reason is lack of funding for participants and the inability of the athletes to dedicate themselves to training AND the lack of local world class competition. This could be solved with money - but not too many people care much about the sport. from what I can see Kendo is far less money driven. There seems to be plenty of dojo's where the sensei are basically volunteers. In fencing, nobody does anything for free and there is a scramble to get access to monies to allow for free travel for noncompetitors (judges, administrators).

In order to compete you must be a member of the USFA. Resident aliens CAN join. It would be impossible for others to be the US National Champion - period, end of story. I take your word for the quality of US kenshi. I still maintain that it is meaningless whether or not the US Champ is a citizen or a resident alien. All the tournament needs to do is set its Rules as to who can enter. As to who represents the US on its national team I would set the same criteria as who can be on the Olympic team.

[William Honda]

Old Warrior,

That chip is related your incessant comments about European fencing, karate, being old, trying (or even thinking about trying) crap when you can't do the basics yet. I'm just tired of hearing about it. I will attempt to be more understanding and tolerant. But remember…..

K-e-n-d-o K-e-n-d-o K-e-n-d-o K-e-n-d-o

When in Rome, do as the Germans. Or was that Swiss? No, I think it was the Romanians - That's it, do as the Romanians.

William

[William Honda]

Old Warrior,

By the way, my kendo sucks too. I have a lot of miles to put on, and more dues to pay.

I really do mean to impune myself. My kendo is not where I'd like it to be = more practice.

William

[kendomushi]

I doubt that there are many of us who are completely happy with our kendo. After 10 years all I can say with confidence is that I don't suck nearly as much as I did 5 years ago, however, I still suck and feel I should be doing better.
As you said = more practice.

[Old Warrior]

Wm Honda

Sorry I don't measure up to your literary or kendo standards. I guess you can add me to your "Do Not Like List". Considering the fact that we've never met, I'm proud to be included. I'll sorely miss those Honda Christmas cards. It's a shame. I thought we were such good buddies. Maybe I should quit kendo because you don't like me. Nah, I'm enjoying it far too much.

[William Honda]

Old Warrior,

There you go again. Going from A to Z in a blink of an eye. Now you think I do not like you. How the hell would I know? I’ve never met you. There are some things about your posts that I don’t like, just as there are posts of mine that others don’t like. But to say I do not like you personally is absurd. Sounds like you have the chip and a color issue - check the horizontal control. Look deep inside yourself - you know what I’m talking about.

Also, I cannot say that “harnessing anger” is one of my strong points. Probably not one of yours either.

I have a question for you. How does one begin to learn a new art if that person cannot totally open oneself to the new art?

I do not mean to say that the “old art” will be gone from your vocabulary (it will never leave you). On the contrary, it will come into play and I think you will find your European fencing background to be helpful. I think you will find that to happen later in your Kumdo experience. But, you should not even think at this point. Just do it – straight. Unquestioningly (if that is a real word).

If you are whom I think you are, you’ve obviously accomplished something spectacular. If you are not, I give you too much credit. You ask, but do not listen - to me, to Neil, to Alex, to anyone, you keep going on your merry way. You know better. But think back. Did you act this way when you started Euro fencing? Maybe.

Actually, forget it. I have no standards for you to measure up to. Your kumdo is all yours. I have no idea where your brain is or care to find out.

As for the Christmas cards, I just might send one to piss you off.

William

[Inouye02]

abdula , abdula , abdula fata aii .....

[smith]

American soldiers do seem to have a real problem with friendly fire.

[itazura]

Touche Smith Touche

[moocow65]

hey smith, why don't you leave our american troops out of this, or just shut the hell up?

[Inouye02]

although i'm proud i'm japanese, sometimes it's very hard to see, i can look thru venetian blinds, i like to stare at power lines....

[Phlebas]

"Go banana!"

-Ralphie Wiggum

[samurai999]

Originally posted by Hongsermeier
moocow...your not good enough to be in the men's? If thats true I don't even want to think about where I stand.
As for citizenship, I agree mostly. However there are other things at work. My wife for example will not even be considering getting her citizenship till after our next kid. This gives our kids the option of which country they wish to be citizens of. Not to mention how much easier it is when traveling to and from Japan.

Your wife is a green card holder right? If so, then I could've been a dual citizen when I was younger. My moms a permanent resident still. Not a citizen. Dad's sworn in. D'oh (no pun intended).

Tim

[Hongsermeier]

Tim..your too old now, but yes you could have been. There is a three month window after a baby is born. You have to go to the Japanese consulate and fill out some papers. Actually pretty simple.